The Middle East part 2

[Major Fubar 0]

Can we please stop with the cartoon posting?

They generally don't add anything to the discussion - at best, they are pointless fluff, at worst they are offensive dogma (for either/any side of the debate)...

I realise that a cartoon was recently the hot topic in news discussion, but that really doesn't mean we need cartoons posted ad-nauseum here.

Also, catch phrases like "Islamofascists" do not add anything to the debate either, please avoid using them.

If people can't discuss the Middle East topic without resorting to spam, racism or personal attacks we will probably close this thread indefinitely.

[Wonder 0]

Freedom of speech is absolute! There's no such thing as free speech that has limits.

Is it okayt to insult religions? - Yes it is! (especially the catholic church ) Is it okay to burn a national flag? - Of course! If it's your possession you can do whatever you want with it! Is it okay to mount an armed assault to a governmental building and burn down embassies? - Absolutely not! Speech is free, not action!

Free speech should not be limited in any way just because someone thinks he has a right not to be offended! My view is - Express your anger! Shout in rage, but don't you dare to cast that first stone!

[denoir 0]

Freedom of speech is absolute! There's no such thing as free speech that has limits.

Well, I would not go that far.  Free speech without restrictions equals anarchy.  You cannot for instance spread classified information, or threaten somebody with bodily harm.  You cannot (falsely) yell "Fire" in a crowded theater, and so on.

There are things that we definitely consider to be more important than freedom of speech, it's just happens to be so that religion is in Europe not considered to be one of those things.

The European Convention on Human Rights, which is the supreme law in the EU in these issues says the following:

Quote[/b] ]

Article 10 – Freedom of expression

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

[shadow 6]

Is it okay to burn a national flag? - Of course! If it's your possession you can do whatever you want with it!

Are you serious?  

Burning a nations flag is an act of war against that country from a political perspective.

I remember a few months ago when a Norwegian comedian (Otto Jespersen) burned the American flag on tv as part of one of his comedic acts. It did'nt take many minutes before the US embassy was in contact with the tv-station and it was all over the news everywhere.

Burning a nations flag is wrong nomatter if you paid for your flag or not.

When I see the Muslims stepping on and burning the Dannish and Norwegian flag I see them as the enemy to Denmark and my country.

[Supah 0]

Is it okay to burn a national flag? - Of course! If it's your possession you can do whatever you want with it!

Are you serious?  

Burning a nations flag is an act of war against that country from a political perspective.

I remember a few months ago when a Norwegian comedian (Otto Jespersen) burned the American flag on tv as part of one of his comedic acts. It did'nt take many minutes before the US embassy was in contact with the tv-station and it was all over the news everywhere.

Burning a nations flag is wrong nomatter if you paid for your flag or not.

When I see the Muslims stepping on and burning the Dannish and Norwegian flag I see them as the enemy to Denmark and my country.

Ive always wondered if there were many flag factories in the middle east and if they actually produced the Israeli and US flags in higher numbers then their own national flags for burning purposes.

[Ares1978 0]

Fucking piece of shit ISP, broke down while I was posting. Anyway, here it is:

Freedom of speech is absolute! There's no such thing as free speech that has limits.

Well, I would not go that far.  Free speech without restrictions equals anarchy.  You cannot for instance spread classified information, or threaten somebody with bodily harm.  You cannot (falsely) yell "Fire" in a crowded theater, and so on.

There are things that we definitely consider to be more important than freedom of speech, it's just happens to be so that religion is in Europe not considered to be one of those things.

The European Convention on Human Rights, which is the supreme law in the EU in these issues says the following:

I think it's bullshit to talk about "free speech" when speech isn't free. Setting any type of limits on it makes it impossible for it to be free. The only sensible thing to do, would be to call it what it is, "limited speech". And in the case of speech, "anarchy" is always better than the alternative, nothing is more important han freedom of speech, with the possible exception of the moral right to defend that freedom by any means necessary. IMNSHO.

And speaking of the European Convention on Human Rights, what's the point in declaring that "everyone has the right to freedom of expression" if you're going to say it's up to the government to decide if you can exercise that right.

[Daniel 0]

Quote[/b] ]especially the catholic church

Are you trying to look clever?

From your post, you seem to be under the impression that inciting hatred and offending people is acceptable.

[Blake 0]

Here's little controversial comedy clip from todays's perspective: http://www.muchosucko.com/video-azizthecombatfighter.html

How times have changed...

Well I hope current crisis will end before people start getting killed for cartoons.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

It is indeed okay to burn the danish flag. I am danish, and I have no problem with them burning our flag. But seeing them burn my embassy downthere just tears me apart. Noone was hurt (thank god), but burning of the embassy simply symbolise the people not wanting a political solution to the problem through dialogue.

As many must have guessed allready, the countries are seing a price-raise on everyday goods like milk and butter. The people downthere are the victims. They arent stupid, they are just very little enlightened because they have no access to a free press and media as we have here in the western world. They have a hard time understanding that our Prime minister cannot apologise for what a newspaper posted. If he did, the whole government here would be thrown down, and a new one would rise... Regretfully that one would probably be more rightwing-orientated than now.

The next call is theirs. We cannot do anything more here in Denmark, than try to persuauve the muslim governments to stop spreading lies and rumours. We can only tell them to try to enlightening them, instead of trying to up the conflict.

I hope that we will see a peaceful solution without too many economical sanctions against these poor people downthere.

[theavonlady 2]

The Jerusalem Post is reporting that the Arab European League website (bandwidth exceeded when I last looked ) is/was depicting cartoons showing Anne Frank in bed with Hitler, etc.

I'm so full of Jewish Rageâ„¢ that I'm going downtown to burn down the local Syria, Iranian and Lebanese embassies!

Hey! Where'd they go?!

[denoir 0]

Is it okay to burn a national flag? - Of course! If it's your possession you can do whatever you want with it!

Are you serious?  

Burning a nations flag is an act of war against that country from a political perspective.

I remember a few months ago when a Norwegian comedian (Otto Jespersen) burned the American flag on tv as part of one of his comedic acts. It did'nt take many minutes before the US embassy was in contact with the tv-station and it was all over the news everywhere.

Burning a nations flag is wrong nomatter if you paid for your flag or not.

When I see the Muslims stepping on and burning the Dannish and Norwegian flag I see them as the enemy to Denmark and my country.

Hehe, that's a very Norwegian point of view. You guys are so in love with your flag that it is bordering on the pathological.

Getting upset over somebody burning a flag is no different than getting upset over somebody drawing caricatures of Mohamed.  Both are of course provocations and are intended to be disrespectful and insulting.  However that is a part of free speech: the right to insult people.

Edit: Flag burning is not OK when the flag has an embassy attached to it. But then we are talking about material destruction which is generally not covered by freedom of expression laws.

[kakagoegie 0]

Getting upset over somebody burning a flag is no different than getting upset over somebody drawing caricatures of Mohamed.  Both are of course provocations and are intended to be disrespectful and insulting.  However that is a part of free speech: the right to insult people.

Ok, Europe is insulted now. Let's take down some embassies.

Yet again we see the difference between the Middle-East and Europe. We insult them (they say), and they burn embassies boycot products, riot etc. They insult us by burning flags, and what do we do? Nothing. That's the difference.

I would say, if they don't like us anymore in the Middle-East. Say bye bye to those financial support. Let's see if they still are so tough when they are bankrupt.

[denoir 0]

It is indeed okay to burn the danish flag. I am danish, and I have no problem with them burning our flag. But seeing them burn my embassy downthere just tears me apart. Noone was hurt (thank god), but burning of the embassy simply symbolise the people not wanting a political solution to the problem through dialogue.

Try this for laughs: they also burned down the Swedish embassy in Syria as it is in the same building as the Norwegian one.

Personally, as nobody got hurt, I thought that was hilarious given how our government cowardly has tried not getting involved in the controversy out of fear of upsetting people.

[eisa01 0]

Is it okay to burn a national flag? - Of course! If it's your possession you can do whatever you want with it!

Are you serious?  

Burning a nations flag is an act of war against that country from a political perspective.

I remember a few months ago when a Norwegian comedian (Otto Jespersen) burned the American flag on tv as part of one of his comedic acts. It did'nt take many minutes before the US embassy was in contact with the tv-station and it was all over the news everywhere.

Burning a nations flag is wrong nomatter if you paid for your flag or not.

When I see the Muslims stepping on and burning the Dannish and Norwegian flag I see them as the enemy to Denmark and my country.

Hehe, that's a very Norwegian point of view. You guys are so in love with your flag that it is bordering on the pathological.

Don't label all us Norwegians I'm in favor of letting people burn whatever they want, as long as they own it or have permission of the owner. When I heard they were burning Norwegian flags, I couldn't care less. But when they moved on to embassies, I got pissed off.

I hope things start to calm down now, as it's just a silly controversy. The images of Muhammed was caricatures, so it's not like they were saying Muhammed was a terrorist by depicting him with a bomb in the turban. But I'm mightily pissed at Magazinet, the Norwegian Magazine that printed the caricatures in Norway, since they were in favour of thougher blashphemy laws in Norway. And now they're trying to say they support freedom of speech

[kakagoegie 0]

Try this for laughs: they also burned down the Swedish embassy in Syria as it is in the same building as the Norwegian one.

Chili's embassy was also located in the building that was burned down. I think most people in Middle-East don't even know where Chili is.

Government in Chili will be thinking now: "Hmm, why did we decide to hold our embassy in the same building as the Danes"

[theavonlady 2]

I think most people in Middle-East don't even know where Chili is.

Let alone how to correctly spell it in English.

[mojo-jojo 0]

Here is a story from Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" (the earliest of Mohammed's biographies). It is about a female poet called Asma bint Marwan who frequently made fun of the Prophet of Islam. One day she went a little too far:

Quote[/b] ]“[Asma bint Marwan;] ‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Mohammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Mohammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said, ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’â€(Ishaq: 676)

Eventhough the "Sirat Rasul Allah" is one of the oldest Islamic books the story is disputed by a few english-speaking Islamic scholars. They argue that one of the sources cited by the author (for reasons beyond my understanding) is unreliable. Others accept the book as historic fact.

[Thunderbird 0]

Quote[/b] ]When I see the Muslims stepping on and burning the Dannish and Norwegian flag I see them as the enemy to Denmark and my country.

I think one should never generalize, there are more than 1,200 billion muslims over the world and they represent about 22% of the world's population and of course not all of them support the current events, otherwise it would simply turn to a WWIII...

Even most of them condemn burning ambassies and attacking european symbols under weak pretexts, though.

Emotion with political opinion can be quite nasty.

Best Regards

Thunderbird84

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]I thought that was hilarious given how our government cowardly has tried not getting involved in the controversy out of fear of upsetting people.

Same here. When crisis started our beloved foreign minister immediately said Danish government should apologize. It's hilarious how this much advertized Nordic co-operation blows out of the window when things get tough.

[theavonlady 2]

Vote and then have a look at the results of this MSNBC poll.

Note the number of voters. Interesting.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]When I see the Muslims stepping on and burning the Dannish and Norwegian flag I see them as the enemy to Denmark and my country.

I think one should never generalize, there are more than 1,200 billion muslims over the world and they represent about 22% of the world's population and of course not all of them support the current events, otherwise it would simply turn to a WWIII...

Even most of them condemn burning ambassies and attacking european symbols under weak pretexts, though.

Emotion with political opinion can be quite nasty.

Best Regards

Thunderbird84

Just look at the muslim newspapers, danish sales figures in muslim countries and the size of those riots and then try to tell that at least half of their population does not think like that.

If it was some minority the syrians would'nt be letting mobs torch embassies.

[Heatseeker 0]

Vote and then have a look at the results of this MSNBC poll.

Note the number of voters. Interesting.

I cant vote, they do have the right to protest or show their not too happy about it, ofcourse things have gone way too far...

I feel indiferent about all this, maybe because im another liberal athew who strongly believes religions are nothing but men made institutions based on myths, tales and cultural aspects of distinct societies thrown in the mix, needed in the old days, to keep the flocks in the wright path .

Unfortunetly these institutions have always been responsible for wars and tension based on nothing but narrow minded ignorance and fanatism.

So i dont feel like i should be asked to respect islam or cristianism, otherwise i would be demonstrating respect for ignorance. God didnt invent religions, men did .

Im also a bit disapointed/embarassed with the reactions of some of you..

"look, that muslim is burning our flag, lets kill them all...".

History should have taught us better than that, be ashamed of yourselves, your no better than the one who sees a piece of cartoon has an excuse for unecessary violence.

Humanity still has a long way to go...   .

[kakagoegie 0]

I think most people in Middle-East don't even know where Chili is.

Let alone how to correctly spell it in English.

Woops, used the dutch name for it. Chile it is in english, another thing learned today

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Ironic... The only floor that wasnt destroyed during the fire and storm on the embassys in syrien was the third floor which housed... yep, u guessed it... The danish embassy.

//Edit

The Iraq transport ministerium have today declared that they do not wish any financial help from Denmark or Norway to rebuild their country. That will really help them.

[Garcia 0]

Ironic... The only floor that wasnt destroyed during the fire and storm on the embassys in syrien was the third floor which housed... yep, u guessed it... The danish embassy.

//Edit

The Iraq transport ministerium have today declared that they do not wish any financial help from Denmark or Norway to rebuild their country. That will really help them.

lol...poor us, eh? They're all saying no to our money, I am sooo sad right now

I mean, how many ppl in norway or denmark gives a shit if Iraq don't want our money...only reaction is probaly "Yes, now we can keep our money for ourself"