The Middle East part 2

[Apollo 0]

Interresting post it seems that the wall may be more effective possibly than i thought given the story's you gave.Although we must also consider that theyre are many Palestinians living outside Palestine who could arrange for smuggling of explosive's to the mainland with a slim chance of succes.

Anyway ,i think we kinda both agree on the fact that in this conflict the use of Terrorism is a serious setback for the palestinian case on the diplomatic level since if it wasn't for this ,israel would loose all the justification to take offensive measure's on Palestine ,or even withold from direct negotiation's to settle peace.We could go as far as saying that should someone give Hamas conventional warfare material like some tanks and a heli or two to use in an attack on a Jewish base or even a defended Jewish town would be justified in a state of war. (give and take a few civilian kills by sieging houses used by defenders)

Ok ,but lets do a calculation:

Quote[/b] ]Here is a breakdown of 3,481 deaths in more than three years of Israeli-Palestinian violence. The Associated Press reviewed data from the third year of fighting, figures that reveal a 50 percent drop in casualties from the previous year. The numbers are based on information compiled in interviews with relatives, witnesses, doctors and visits to hospital morgues.

TOTAL: 2,583 on the Palestinian side and 898 on the Israeli side. The Israeli figure includes several foreigners, migrant workers, tourists, students on study-abroad programs and staff of international bodies killed in Palestinian attacks. It also includes at least 43 U.S. citizens, most also holding Israeli citizenship.

The Palestinian figure includes an American peace activist crushed by an Israeli bulldozer while trying to stop the demolition of a Palestinian home, a British U.N. official killed by Israeli fire during a gunbattle in the West Bank, a German doctor killed by Israeli fire as he tried to help Palestinians wounded when a rocket slammed into their home, several Egyptians killed in Gaza and two journalists -- one Italian and the other British -- both fatally wounded while working in Palestinian areas.

PALESTINIANS KILLED PREPARING OR CARRYING OUT ATTACKS: 289.

This figure includes suicide bombers, gunmen and Palestinians who died while preparing explosives.

PALESTINIAN MILITANTS TARGETED AND KILLED BY ISRAELIS: 117.

BYSTANDERS KILLED IN TARGETED ATTACKS ON MILITANTS: 88.

PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBERS: 108.

VICTIMS OF SUICIDE BOMBERS: 436.

DEADLIEST SUICIDE ATTACK: A Palestinian from the West Bank town of Tulkarem killed 29 Israelis on March 27, 2002, during a Passover hotel dinner.

DEADLIEST TOLL FOR PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS: An Israeli F-16 warplane bombing on July 23, 2002, hit a Gaza City apartment building and killed a Hamas military leader, Salah Shehadeh, his bodyguard and 13 bystanders, including his wife, daughter, and eight other children.

ISRAELI SOLDIERS KILLED: 244.

JEWISH SETTLERS KILLED IN THE WEST BANK AND GAZA: 146.

FATALITIES UNDER AGE 18:

Israelis: 92.

Palestinians: 319

(excludes suicide bombers or others killed in attacks on Israeli targets).

So were talking:

Palestinian civilian's killed:

2,583-289-117-108=2069 civilians (deducted are those killed in war or by terrorism)

Jewish civilian's killed:

898-244=654 (deducted are soldies ,settlers are not deducted)

Give or take that these figures are correct Although the Israeli millitary doesn't primarely target civilian's while the terrorist groups do ,effectivly the IDF manages to kill roughly 3x more civilians than the Palestian terrorists.

Now justification's and legal ways of warfare is one thing ,but the effective results on the ground is another thing clearly.

[miles teg 1]

Agreed. Which is why the world (and especially the United States) needs to do more then just lip service to a create peace in that region. The United States could easily force Israel to withdraw its settlements but it won't because of three things:

1. Religious views of Christian fundamentalists in Congress and the Senate that in general form a belief that any actions against the Jewish state of Israel is an action against God's chosen people.

2. Intense lobbying by powerful Jewish organizations within the United States.

3. Intense lobbying by the defense industry here in the United States as they make HUGE profits from arms sales to Israel, much of which is funded by US taxpayer dollars in the form of military assistance programs with Israel where they get huge discounts on American weapons (and lots of loans to buy them).

As of now, I don't see any sign of peace anytime soon. Israel can't be forced to accept peace keepers because they have WMD's (including nukes) and the means to deliver them...not to mention a very formidable armed forces that would likely drive out any force that tried to intervene without their invitation. So that rules out a EU operation or something like that.

To top it off, fundamentalist Muslims, Jews, and Christians are all egging this conflict on in the hopes of creating Armeggedon and thus "Judgement Day".

Personally I believe judgement day can be any day for us as we can die any moment and thus should be prepared at all times to meet our maker (well if you believe in a maker). So aside from seeing a really big light show, I'm not too psyched about seeing Armeggedon myself. But I guess if that happened we would find out who was right and who was wrong out of all the religious groups and aetheists... it would be a little disappointing I guess if there was a massive war between Israel/USA and the world and the Messiah or God didn't show up in person to take his followers to heaven (and send the rest to hell).

I still remember during the first Gulf War started when I was in Indonesia. Some of the Baptist missionaries I knew were out in their yards with their hands out praying fervently for Jesus to take them because they thought that Armaggedon had begun. They sure were disappointed when it didn't. I just thought it was kinda sad.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Apollo 0]

Miles Teg for president.  

Well afcourse it's known that once the U.S put's pressure on Israel then it's bound to budge.And i think the U.S should atleast stop in giving financial aid to Israel ,they should be able to help themselfs by now.Afcourse it's still a important strategic partner ,don't have to alienate them neither.Some pressure should suffuce to get the party's back to the neggotiation table.

The Jewish lobby is not new to me. American Christian fundamentalists neither but i never knew they held Judaism in big regard.And the American war industry earning bigtime on the war spoils ,well nothing new there ,it's widely known that America needs a war atleast every few years anyway to keep the armanent industry at work or it would lead to much unemplyement ,the U.S war machine is in over production since the cold war.Hence youll see U.S bombers dropping an ungodly ammount of bombs wherever they can probably just to be able to build new ones.

Anyhow ,i have always found it a major fault of the U.S democracy that "lobby'rs" can achieve so much.I mean how can one see that lobbying as democratic ,rather it's a minority pushing trough their wishes while most of the times the rest of the poppulation thing's differently ,or doesnt know of it.

From all the points you have above ,i'm pretty sure that the Jewish lobby is the main importance in keeping the U.S tied to Israel as friend.

Quote[/b] ]As of now, I don't see any sign of peace anytime soon.  Israel can't be forced to accept peace keepers because they have WMD's (including nukes) and the means to deliver them...not to mention a very formidable armed forces that would likely drive out any force that tried to intervene without their invitation.  So that rules out a EU operation or something like that.  

Yeah ,i think that either only an other U.S president or other an other Israeli Pm can really change the situation.

Quote[/b] ]To top it off, fundamentalist Muslims, Jews, and Christians are all egging this conflict on in the hopes of creating Armeggedon and thus "Judgement Day".  

Personally I believe judgement day can be any day for us as we can die any moment and thus should be prepared at all times to meet our maker (well if you believe in a maker).  So aside from seeing a really big light show, I'm not too psyched about seeing Armeggedon myself.  But I guess if that happened we would find out who was right and who was wrong out of all the religious groups and aetheists... it would be a little disappointing I guess if there was a massive war between Israel/USA and the world and the Messiah or God didn't show up in person to take his followers to heaven (and send the rest to hell).  

I still remember during the first Gulf War started when I was in Indonesia.   Some of the Baptist missionaries I knew were out in their yards with their hands out praying fervently for Jesus to take them because they thought that Armaggedon had begun.    They sure were disappointed when it didn't.    I just thought it was kinda sad.

Interresting.Now i'm an atheist myself ,though i do not nessecarily mean that gods or higher powers are impossible ,i just don't believe in them or rather don't follow them.My parents are my gods ,they created me afterall.All the things before that was just natural evolution ,but that are just oppinions.Darwinist would best describe me ,i believe in nature most of all.But to be dissapointed of not having seen an armageddon ,well i guess you really must feel holy to be able to wait for that.Anyway ,if God is real and creation/Armageddon was his plan all along then IMO this god is one sad sadistic puppy.And that people that would have been decent all their live but had followed a "false" religion would not be granted passage to heaven is really moronic.I mean you can have killed 100.000 as Christian and still get in Heaven if you pray to god and say youre sorry for it. (and pray 1.000.000 times to God as penalty) However a guy like Mahatma Gandi has to sit in hell ,just nice.

But when it comes to predictions ,like for ex. of Nostradame or of certain Prophet's ,then ill keep my mind open.Even if certain factor's point out BS ,then ill still take that into possible consideration.I do believe in stuff like telekenetics etc ,partly because i'm hyperkinetic and that i have a talent for such thing's really. (wich some people find freaky ,ah well just as Yuri geller) So when it comes to vission's by prophet's ,i might consider it ,bacause i consider the forces responsible for such thing's are connected with nature and communicative potential that mankind has himself but cannot really use well.

Another question might be interresting though: (to retunr back on point)

-Do you think it's conceivable that Israel will once be the key stepstone to a 3rd World war?If albeit not it's direct results then by the way that it makes the Wes look hypocrit and how that weakens international institutions?

[Guest]

Hello everyone. I see that there are some preatty harsh debates on this forum. Well, perhaps thats not allways the case. Debate is fine, but when people just start to argue with nothing to back it up, then there starts to be problems. Anyways, enough preaching, this is my first post afterall, and to your question:

Quote[/b] ]-Do you think it's conceivable that Israel will once be the key stepstone to a 3rd World war?If albeit not it's direct results then by the way that it makes the Wes look hypocrit and how that weakens international institutions?

Absolutly. Isreal will be the CENTER of the next world war, if there is one. I for one would like to hope that that doesn't happen, at least not in my lifetime! The thing is that there are deep resentments in the middle east. The Isrealis are resetful of all the arabs perhaps just because of Religion. The Palestinians feel resent for haveing their land taken away. But the conflicts go much deeper than that.

The ancient state of Isreal (back in Bible times) was at war with the Philistines. And who are the desendents of the Philistines? So they fight eachother much out of HABIT, since that is what has been done there for too many thousands of years.

With that said, I think it is imposible for there to be peace, at least PERMANENT peace in the Middle East.

E.C.

[ralphwiggum 6]

once you are not welcomed, you are not welcomed. don't bother creating different accounts.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]The ancient state of Isreal (back in Bible times) was at war with the Philistines. And who are the desendents of the Philistines? So they fight eachother much out of HABIT, since that is what has been done there for too many thousands of years.

This is what my encyclopedia says about it:

-------------

Different people use the word Palestinians to mean different things. Prior to WWI, the word was seldom used, though British writers sometimes inaccurately referred to the inhabitants of Palestine as Philistines. During the time of the British Mandate, there was a formal notion of Palestinian citizenship and all inhabitants were called "Palestinians", though the Jews were more willing than the Arabs to adopt this name. Today, however, the overwhelming majority of uses of "Palestinian" are in reference to the Arabs with ties to the region even though other uses are still occasionally encountered in the context of political argument. This article is primarily about the dominant modern meaning.

The Palestinians are a group of Arabs who regard themselves as a distinct branch of the Arab peoples, with family origin in the region called Palestine being the primary defining characteristic. As such, the designation is seen as an ethnic one independent of nationality and religion. The great majority of Palestinians are the descendants of Arabs resident in Palestine during the period before the creation of Israel. They include most of the Arab minority in Israel.

---------------

With other words ,the Palestinians have nothing to do with the ancient people of Phillistines.And the Phillistines were never Muslim's neither.The Palestine's of today have nothing to do with the Phillistines in the past.

[Acecombat 0]

once you are not welcomed, you are not welcomed. don't bother creating different accounts.

Is he jared LP ?

[bucket man 2]

I dont think that Israel would use nukes if UN would bring peace keepers to middle east without their permission.

That would mean large scale counter attacks and to a country size of Israel it would mean total destruction.

IDF is very well equiped and trained but I dont believe it could or even would try to stop peace keeping force sent by UN.

[Bernadotte 0]

Near the bottom of the map you can see the Palestinian village of Mas-ha, situated about 7 km within the West Bank, but right next to the Israeli security wall (red line).  On the other side are 3 Israeli settlements(blue patches).  

It's quite obvious why the fence was built there and not on the West Bank border (green line).  What's not so obvious is that the olive groves, which represented the sole income for Mas-ha, have now joined the Israeli settlements on the other side of the wall.  The Israeli government's promise to allow olive farmers access to their groves through a gate, opened for a few minutes twice each day, would not only be insufficient to maintain the groves, but so far this promise has not been kept.

Two days ago, peace activists protesting that the gate was not being opened as promised tried to break the lock and cut some of the razor wire.  Israel soldiers fired live rounds and rubber-coated bullets into the crowd from 20 meters, hospitalising an Israeli man and injuring an American woman.

Here is some media coverage of the aftermath.

From Reuters:

Quote[/b] ]"In a law-abiding country, you don't shoot civilians," said Avshalom Vilan, a legislator from Meretz, a dovish party whose land-for-peace message has been drowned out by more than three years of Israeli-Palestinian bloodshed.

A news photographer at the scene said on Israel Radio that he and other journalists had told the soldiers they were shooting at fellow Israelis, but the troops ignored him.

Yaalon said the protesters had only themselves to blame. "They masqueraded as Arabs, mingled with Palestinians and entered the...Palestinian side of the fence (area) illegally," he told Israel radio.

...

Israel's biggest newspaper, the mainstream Yedioth Ahronoth, said the soldiers' behaviour was a symptom of the "bestiality which the continuing occupation and war situation...has created within the army and the Israeli consciousness as a whole.

"Let's not kid ourselves...if a Palestinian (had been shot), it probably would not have got even one line in the newspaper," the editorial added.

From the San Francisco Chronicle:

Quote[/b] ]Although Israeli soldiers often fire at Palestinian demonstrators -- with both rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition -- the incident Friday appeared to be the first time Israeli troops have fired at a Jewish-Israeli protester.

Hours after the incident, the army set up an investigative committee.

...

"An order to fire on people that do not fire on you is a completely illegal order," said Ami Ayalon, a former head of Israel's Shin Bet security service.

...

Tal Cohen, a photographer from the Yediot Ahronot newspaper who was at the protest, said one soldier repeatedly asked for permission to fire at protesters' legs, a request that was granted by his officer.

...

Brig. Gen. Ruth Yaron, the army's chief spokeswoman, said it appeared the soldiers refused to allow ambulances into the area.

[Acecombat 0]

Very nice idea this wall this ought to really help the 'PEACE' cause

All that it has so far done is sprout more anger and hatred between the two , as if there wasnt enough already now the incomes of the people is being choked.

[Apollo 0]

Some obeservations on that detail map of the Israeli security fence:

The town Kalkiliya seems to be tottaly surrounded by the fence (getto?) and i wonder how arrangements are for people leaving that town ,what agricultural area thty still can use ,supply's of water etc.

West of Alfe Menashe they appear to be a few small Palestinian settlements that are within the security fence.Isn't that a bit weird and suspicious?What if there are terrorists in those towns ,and what happens if Israel annexes the territory's within the security fence?

[Bernadotte 0]

Another interesting detail about the shooting of the protester has emerged.  Do you see the Israeli settlement of Elqana, situated immediately to the west of Mas-ha?  The Israeli officer who gave the order to shoot is from that settlement.

[theavonlady 2]

Another interesting detail about the shooting of the protester has emerged.  Do you see the Israeli settlement of Elqana, situated immediately to the west of Mas-ha?  The Israeli officer who gave the order to shoot is from that settlement.

[Bernadotte 0]

The events of 26 December in pictures.

[theavonlady 2]

Good shot!

Quote[/b] ]IDF Investigation Clears Soldiers in Fence Shooting Incident

13:15 Dec 31, '03 / 6 Tevet 5764

(IsraelNN.com) The internal investigation of last Friday's shooting of Gil Naamati, involved at the time in sabotaging Israel’s security fence, has determined that the Golani brigade soldiers operated in line with IDF guidelines. However, the chief investigator of the incident is expected to recommend that these guidelines be changed in light of events. Chief of Staff Moshe Yaalon has also said that the army is considering changing the open-fire rules in the area of the separation fence.

Chief Army Prosecutor General Menachem Finkelstein has decided to open a military police investigation into the Naamati shooting.

One senior IDF officer commented, “The army is reacting hysterically to the public criticism, and the soldiers are liable to pay the price.â€

[Acecombat 0]

*Yawn*

I believe the IDF .....

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]... Chief Army Prosecutor General Menachem Finkelstein has decided to open a military police investigation into the Naamati shooting.

The Chief Army Prosecutor doesn't even believe the IDF.  

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]... Chief Army Prosecutor General Menachem Finkelstein has decided to open a military police investigation into the Naamati shooting.

The Chief Army Prosecutor doesn't even believe the IDF.  

No. An internal investigation does not necessarily close other investigations. The internal committees findings will be part of the submissions to the prosecuter's investigation.

[Bernadotte 0]

No. An internal investigation does not necessarily close other investigations. The internal committees findings will be part of the submissions to the prosecuter's investigation.

What do you mean, no?  

The Chief Army Prosecutor opening a military police investigation is hardly a vote of confidence in the IDF's findings.

[Bernadotte 0]

I found this in a Guardian article:

Quote[/b] ]A central committee member, Uzi Cohen, has said he represents a group that intends to present a plan to the congress for the "voluntary transfer" of Palestinians to Jordan.

Considering that there is really nothing stopping Palestinians from moving to Jordan right now, I wonder how this Israeli MP intends to make Palestinians move out voluntarily.

Also from the same article:

Quote[/b] ]On the other side, a colonel in Israel's military reserves, Eitan Ron-El, is the latest officer to quit the army in protest at its conduct in the occupied territories. In a letter to his superiors, he said he had lost faith in military commanders because the army had repeatedly turned a blind eye to the shooting of unarmed Palestinians and other abuses.

[Acecombat 0]

Likud party vents fury on Sharon

Sharon has alienated members of his party

Members of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's right-wing Likud party booed him at a key meeting on Monday

Mr Sharon was addressing the party's central committee for the first time since outlining plans envisaging the removal of some Jewish settlements.

He insisted the scheme was "the best plan for (Israeli) security. This is my plan and I will see it carried out."

Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei, meanwhile, has dropped plans to meet Mr Sharon in the near future.

Party anger

Mr Sharon confronted his critics in a televised speech at the party meeting.

One delegate waved a banner proclaiming the withdrawal plan "a prize for terror".

Unfazed, Mr Sharon responded: "You keep waving your banners and I will keep my responsibility of bringing about peace and security to this land."

Last month, Mr Sharon angered Likud members when he said Jewish settlements would be removed as part of unilateral measures by Israel if peace talks with the Palestinians remain deadlocked.

The party has traditionally championed the right of Jews to settle in the West Bank and Gaza - territories in which the Palestinians are seeking to establish a state.

The 3,000-member central committee is a stronghold of supporters of Mr Sharon's main political rival, Finance Minister Binyamin Netanyahu.

Delegates were to debate a motion proposing that any major decisions Mr Sharon makes will require their approval.

While praising Israeli settlers as "courageous and loyal to Zionism", Mr Sharon told the conference that Israel would "have to give up some of the Jewish settlements" in the context of a peace plan with the Palestinians.

And, he added, "If the Palestinians continue to reject our peace offers... we will disengage from them politically and militarily and prevent any contact between them and us."

Summit shelved

The Palestinian prime minister said before the Likud meeting that a long-anticipated anticipated meeting with Mr Sharon would not take place soon.

"I am sorry to say [israeli] destruction continues, aggression continues, bombardment continues and I don't think that in this situation that any meeting will have significant results," he told reporters.

"We are not looking for a meeting that will be a photo opportunity."

Mr Qurei and Mr Sharon have recently expressed willingness to meet each other for the first time since Mr Qurei was appointed in September, 2003.

In the latest violence, a 17-year-old Palestinian man was shot dead by Israeli troops in Nablus on Monday.

Taj Saif's family said he was killed returning from collecting junk, while the Israeli army said it shot a Palestinian who threw a firebomb.

[Acecombat 0]

A interesting letter was sent to the ArabNews's letter desk:

Quote[/b] ]

A Level Playing Field

The analysis that the Sharon plan may turn out like his Lebanon adventure may be true. Or, again, it may not be. However, what could make his plan fail are actions, not words.

Living in America as I do, I know that the Israelis went to Lebanon and one day suddenly pulled out their army. But I don’t know what made them do it and what was price they really paid that made them leave. So I don’t understand what you mean when you say, “think of the Lebanon war and its priceâ€. And I am not the only one who does not know. Many Americans are equally unaware.

The point I am making is that there is an information failure on the part of the Arabs. They have not made any real effort to inform the world of the truth.

Every day I read Arab News and the Palestine Media Center News, and I see that Palestinians — women, children and men — are shot dead or wounded every day. And yet it seems the rest of the world knows nothing of this. I never see those deaths in our newspapers or on TV newscasts. It seems unfair and one-sided for the world not to know who is murdering and who is getting murdered, and why and how and how often.

I think it is time for Arab countries to get together and buy out a big news channel like NBC, ABC or CBS and broadcast the truth. That would be a start. The other option is to build a powerful news station broadcasting in all major world languages so that it can reach the entire world — a sort of Voice of Arabia. That would get attention. And I would donate what I could to a worthy cause like that to level the playing field in the media so that people the world over can get the truth about the conflict and evaluate it for themselves.

Kenneth Murray • United States published 7 January 2004

[bmgarcangel 0]

I do swear to god

I really dont get why everyone can't just get along over there. I mean for fucks sake, both sides argue get out of the country its ours for fucks sake. I think now it belongs to both of you guys. You all should deal with it now. Live in peace and stop trying to push each other out. Because the more you do that the more people will die and suffer because of your stupid, arrogant actions.

I don't know what you have to say on this Avon Lady, but if you want to push the palestinian's out more then god have mercy on all of you. You both live there. Deal with it or suffer for generations to come.

~Bmgarcangel

[theavonlady 2]

I don't know what you have to say on this Avon Lady

First of all, it was Barak who unilaterally retreated from Lebanon - not Sharon.

Second, Sharon is suggesting that Israel unilaterally retreat from areas of Judea and Samaria. Just the opposite of your "push out" accusations.

Third, no one would be pushing no one had the Palestinians not started the war over 3 years ago. So direct your questions to the other side, please.

[Bernadotte 0]

I don't know what you have to say on this Avon Lady

First of all, it was Barak who unilaterally retreated from Lebanon - not Sharon.

First of all, it was Acecombat's post that mentioned Sharon in Lebanon, not bmgarcangel's.

Second, Sharon is suggesting that Israel unilaterally retreat from areas of Judea and Samaria. Just the opposite of your "push out" accusations.

Second, I wouldn't be too impressed considering the Oslo agreement required Israel to retreat from areas of the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) 11 years ago.  But where does Oslo call for the "voluntary transfer" of Palestinians to Jordan, as is being proposed by Israeli MP Uzi Cohen?

Third, no one would be pushing no one had the Palestinians not started the war over 3 years ago. So direct your questions to the other side, please.

Third, do you still honestly believe that 3/4 million Palestinians fled their homes, farms and property back in 1948, of their own free will to live the rest of their lives in refugee camps?  According to the other side (and the UN) they were pushed.