Mission Makers Hell

[sneakysix 0]

 

As a mission maker I'm finding the ofp community in decline. So many great addons being released but so many critics wanting more realistic changes makes versions change.  Fiddles with configs and new weapons added needing other addons for it to be usable.  I can start making a mission and by the time Im thinking of release the addons I used needs an update.  Making release put back again and again.  Ive got about 300 missions all sitting on my HD not released and some will never be due to this problem, they've become nothing more than glorified templates.  I loved the old days of 1 beta release then the final product. Playing missions online is also being a ofp watch fest as theres to many retextured addons.  Whats going on?  Is anyone else frustrated or is the community now driven by google wannabies and the drive for recognition with critic comments?

Of course being a perfectionist is my crime,, and it dont help either!!

Final edit i swear.. Please addon makers spare a thought for use guys who try to bring your wonderful creations to life in mission scenarios. Striding to give our fellow gamers the experience hopefully your addons deserve.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Think this is better suited to General

[sneakysix 0]

cheers Ex-Ronin I wasnt sure where to post,, almost ended up in Mission Editing

[sim 0]

I agree with you sneakysix!

This irratates me so much, I can be making a mission one day and the next I check ofp.info and a new version of the addon has been released! Forcing me to re-download it and re-install it, it's even more annyoing because ofp isn't on this computer! so I have to transfer everything by disk.

I know addon makers like their addons to be perfect and so do I, but if you know that you are going to release the 1st version on monday and then an update on tuesday, don't release the 1st version.

sim

[EiZei 0]

One of the reasons I stick with making fdf missions, the config stays the way it is.. well usually.

[sanctuary 19]

I know addon makers like their addons to be perfect and so do I, but if you know that you are going to release the 1st version on monday and then an update on tuesday, don't release the 1st version.

The problem is that more than often , the addon maker think the release is good as it is.

But the players have a disturbing skill that enable them to find several wrongs things that have been not seen by the addon makers, making them updating their addon (fortunately ) .

And honestly, you prefer an addon released with some bugs to stay like this to prevent the update days later, or do you prefer when the addon maker update it to make it more bug free ?

Fortunately, often the updated addons keep the model paths and PBO names, making it compatible with a mission that used a previous version of this addon.

There is always the possibility you can wait forever for a specific addon you need to complete yopur mission , that will never been released in several years because the addon maker want it totally perfect in every way, is that sounds better ? with several chance that it will annoy the addon maker making finally cancelling the work , like it has been done on several old addon projects (just browse OFP.info archives as an example)

When it comes to addons , i say the addon maker should release what he wants when he wants without any drama play, soon or late is up to the author.

[Llauma 0]

One easy solution is to leave all the addons out or make the missions for a mod like Eizei said so you'll know which units are available to use. That's the best part of the FDF mod.. It resets OFP to the time when the mission makers didn't have to think about which addons to use in the missions.

[Nilz 0]

That's why I'm going to leave the one and only Estonian clan. Too many addons! (well there are other reasons too, for example, I'm the only real Estonian in the clan, others are Estonian Russians - Russians living in Estonia)

Why should I download almost one gig of addons since most of the missions we play don't use these addons? Yes, all the better quality addons (BAS, HYK, Llaumax) are OK, but why let some Christmas super third-party addon collect dust on your HDD?

I think I should go play with some Finns... höhöhö ;)

[CAPAIRMAN 0]

I agree. I have tons of missions that i haven't been able to complete just because someone is hounded into updating their perfectly fine addon.

[Drongo69 117]

My thoughts on this "decline"...

I'm not sure exactly why, but the OFP community seems very focused on addons, but generally doesn't show much interest in missions. (Also, check to poll on ofp.info for interest levels).

Compare the activity on the addons: discussion or addons: complete boards to user missions. Most addon threads get pages of discussion, but user missions don't seem to get much response. It can be disappointing to spend time on a mission only to be met with chirping crickets.

Maybe people are bored with the same old mission types? If so, what kind of missions to people want?

[MrZig 0]

I think the sad truth about not many responces in the user missions is that a lot of missions require a huge list of downloads, lots being tiny rare addons, and human nature being lazy, we dont see why we should go through all that effort just to play one mission.

[philcommando 0]

Maybe cos it is easier to slap a dash a mission from editor than to play a mission maker's mission that requires tons of addons to be download?

How about creating templates with the neccesary scripts and codes instead of missions?

example:-

Steal the car

Steal the plane

Flanking

Outflank

Defence to the last man

Fight or die

[Heatseeker 0]

Disagreed, if the addon maker bothers to decompile, improve and rework the addon it wont be so hard to replace this in the mission, i am happy that addons keep on being improved and reworked, its great for us all. The mission maker will just need to change the addon and the required addons list of the mission, if he cant be bothered and the mission is really something special the user can easily do this. Also mission makers should know that releasing beta versions of addons is the best way to find those last remaining bugs, the same is true for mission editing right? Are you guys really complaining about beta releases and updated/improved addons just because you find it anoying to redownload and replace them in a mission? ...

[General Barron 0]

Ah... "addons vs missions".... I always love this topic.

I don't really have a problem with addon makers updating their addons, as long as their first release was working. Unfortunately, it seems like sometimes addon makers don't do much beta testing before they release. How else can you explain having to fix bugs in an addon the day after it is released?

Here's a good way to beta test an addon (or script or anything): make a mission with it. Ah, but the problem, of course, is that people don't make addons in order to create a certain mission; they create them just to toy around with in the mission editor.

I would love to see addon makers either (a) learn how to make missions, or (b) team up with someone who does know. That way, maybe, just MAYBE, every addon could be released with along with a REAL mission. Addons might also be made with mission editors in mind, if that were the case. Oh yeah, and the addons would get properly beta-tested as well.  

*Sigh*, unfortunately, that almost never happens (not since BAS it seems).

Quote[/b] ]Compare the activity on the addons: discussion or addons: complete boards to user missions. Most addon threads get pages of discussion, but user missions don't seem to get much response. It can be disappointing to spend time on a mission only to be met with chirping crickets.

My thoughts exactly. But you know what's ironic?

Quote[/b] ]I think the sad truth about not many responces in the user missions is that a lot of missions require a huge list of downloads, lots being tiny rare addons, and human nature being lazy, we dont see why we should go through all that effort just to play one mission.

Compare the two quotes, and hopefully you will find it as absurd as I do. On the one hand, the community seems to be obsessed with always wanting new addons to come out. But on the other hand, if a mission is released that USES these addons, no one wants to play it, because they don't want to "hunt down all those addons".

Mission makers are put in a strange position: they can either try to put some of those great addons out there to use (and get grief for "using too many addons"), or they can use very few or no addons, and then not be able to fully create the type of mission they want to make.

The problem with addons, is that, in general, addon makers are not mission makers. Nor do addon makers seem to be mission players. Why would someone release a single m4 as a whole .pbo? Why wouldn't addon makers try to add something to OFP that has never been done before, instead of trying to create yet another (insert type of soldier/weapon/tank here)? As a mission player, I don't want to download and install an addon that only adds a single weapon (which can be found in 99 other addon packs). As a mission editor, I don't want to have 1,000,000 different types of cheese to hunt through, when I really want an apple. But if I'm just a addon-player, then I don't care about any of that; because all I want to do is plop addons down in the editor, play around with them for a couple hours, then go spam the forums.

--------

It seems to me that addons are treated like some cheap, chinese-made McDonalds Happy Meal toy. Thousands of them are pumped out at a time; people get them, play with them for a second, and then throw them away until the next one comes out.

I would think that all the work it takes to make an addon would be more truly appreciated if those addons were used in some real missions. All the work it takes to make a mission might be truly appreciated if people actually played missions.

----

With that said, I must admit that I myself am guilty of something similar to what I criticize above: I almost never play OFP. I spend 95% of my OFP time creating missions, or else creating scripts to put in missions (which I often end up publishing but never myself using). I feel somewhat bad for not playing more missions and giving positive feedback to the authors, because I sure as heck know how much effort they put into them, and I sure as heck know how good it feels to hear someone actually show interest in what you have created.

[MrZig 0]

I think a way to solve this is to

A) Use such replacement mods like FDF, Y2k3, EECP, Flash FX etc

or

B) Organise some 'expansion modules' similar to the way VBS is. Basically organise all the addons for a single purpose (opfor, marines, etc) and config, texture fix 'em, etc and put em in a pbo or two and release it. But that's A LOT of effort, and once again, the human race, and pretty much all animals, are lazy.

[sneakysix 0]

The only way forward for myself now is to rejoin a clan or mod and resume mission making using their addons and a few basic others. That way I lose the pressure of having to complete a mission before the update or if there is a update it's within the realm of the team I'm with, addon collection.

As for some of the comments about, well mission makers should expect the updates and ammend the changes in their missions. I feel the point has been lost. Where the point I'm making is an updated addon that has changed config within so much so, that when you've placed the addon overwriting the old one only to find in the mission editor the units have disappeared. Making all that work that mission maker has done useless. Thats annoying and soul destroying, especially as you've gone to the trouble to set up script.sqs, camera.sqs added sounds, markers, objs and all the other tiny details that took he best part of your marriage up I mean time.

MP missions I feel are in more demand now that the internet populus has grown past the 56k days of the launch of flashpoint to ther high speed broadband of today. More players and servers than ever before increasing the demand for MP mission variety.

Lets hope flashpoint 2 engine brings us many new capabilities with mission usage, with rehashed ideas from Ofp1 and some new, if any?

[Guest major gandhi]

the only way to make addon-making more effective is to centralise it. create a central authority or some sort of club for addon-makers. located in a closed section in the forums.

you can only become a member when you are already working at an addon or when you've already finished one. as a member you get better support through the other members.

with such an organization one could try to...

...keep a certain standard of quality

...keep a certain standard of conformity, not ten different variations of the same camo

...organise the addons in packs simliar to vbs1

...control the creation of addons, in order not to have 1001 verions of one rifle

...to equip every release with some template missions showing the features of the addons.

[sanctuary 19]

That can't work for several reasons (even if i would really like to see something worked commonly)

-addons maker have all their own idea about the config of their addon : armour values, skill level of their units, features, ballistics etc...

-some attempt of making addon makers working on a common project had already failed

JAM by example, despite the good idea of the BAS work, the addon makers that explained why they disagreed with JAM standard made perfect sense.

Quote[/b] ]keep a certain standard of quality

who can define what is quality and what is not?

This is too much subjective to work.

Quote[/b] ]keep a certain standard of conformity, not ten different variations of the same camo

Anyone can always improve the rendition of a camo ingame , so why select one work as a standard to prevent any possible improvements on it by other people trying to make it "perfect" ?

Quote[/b] ]organise the addons in packs simliar to vbs1

In some ways, you can already do it yourself by using mod folders on the user end, that's how i made it personnally.

Quote[/b] ]control the creation of addons, in order not to have 1001 verions of one rifle

Same answer as camos , why prevent anyone to make an improvement on a weapon that has been made previously ?

If you prefer a version , use this one, but other people can prefer a different version.

Quote[/b] ]to equip every release with some template missions showing the features of the addons.

Problem explained in a previous post : addon makers are not always mission editors.

[philcommando 0]

Theoratically, to create missions, u dont need a certain addon to make it work. ANY addon will do the same job, afterall, most addons are pump up versions of BIS addons, eg - T-80 vs T-54, both are track vehicles, it has a canon, only difference is the look and feel of it.

Why not just use existing BIS addons to produce your missions instead? Afterall, a mission is just a job for certain units to perform and once downloaded, anyone can replace the mission with their favourite addons. You can have a sidenote on recommendations for addons then you can leave it to the gamer to choose.

As for cutscenes...this is pretty subjective..do we need it when a text briefing could do the job?

There are so many good missions out there that would enhance the game, but because sometimes its really frustrating to go hunting for addons - u find the unit and then u need to find one weapon out of an entire pack, and after that u need the mod conversion, then u realise u need the specific island - error message: u need to download grass or something else,then download the special effects and when u thought u are ready, u need to use a script from somewhere else. Heaven help u if u managed to put in the right folder or it will pop out an error message....sheesh!

Bis is actually a good standard to use, why not make use of it and provide the template instead, afterall, its the mission and scripts and not the good lookin addon that will make a difference when playing, eg - whats the difference between the official BIS spetnaz and an unoffical spetnaz, dont they move and kill the same, sharing the same config perhaps pumped up a bit?

[Drongo69 117]

Philcommando's mission templates idea sounds good.

Imagine a pack of basic templates with the relevant scripts etc, requiring only cut and pasting in the editor. Default BIS units and islands would be used. Mission editors could then choose which addons to use, select new locations for the battle, tweak victory conditions, alter force composition, etc etc. Two missions made with the same template could potentially play out very differently. A worthwhile project?

I'm currently working on 2 dynamic missions using only BIS stuff (and perhaps JAM). The hope is that people will edit the necessary scripts to use addon XYZ and re-release the mission. I'm not sure if people could be bothered though...

[sanctuary 19]

Actually making missions that will use no addons other than BIS work can have a lot of interest for people using replacement configs (y2k3/eecp/ffur) or replacing themselves default units with their favorites ones.

[philcommando 0]

BIS standard addons are ones that everyone has, from islands to units. I believe most people would love a good mission and will try it out if u dont need to hunt everywhere for each and every addon for the mission.

Should the mission be good, i am sure they would be motivated enough to bring it to the next level of experience by replacing it with their favourite addons.

I personally believe that if a poll is conducted, more people will download missions if mission makers use only BIS addons for ease and leave the template open for others to replace their own addons.

In mission making - its the concept of play, not physical addons, that attracts.

[Acecombat 0]

A few words to describe for why there arent many missions.

LAZINESS , OVER AMBITIOUSNESS IN PLOT AND FAILING TO MAKE IT (resulting in mission being deserted) , LACK OF PROPER ADDONS SOMETIMES TO COMPLETE A SCENARIO , LACK OF SKILL AND MOTIVATION ON OUR PART WHEN THE EDITTING TAKES TOO LONG AND THE MISSION ENDS UP BEING ABANDONED.

I know all of the above ive suffered above more then once , as ive got plenty of half finished missions , its simply hard to keep going on one project when so many goodies are being released everyday , you see one addon released today and a few weeks fwd someone had made it even better a new addon now you go updating your mission a very tiring process if youve got initlines and other scripts running on specific units.

[wheres my rabbit ? 10]

from day 1 ofp has required the patients of a saint ...

from being a noob and getting from A to B without getting shot

or playing MP games which sometimes requires a lot farting about just to get a game underway only to have to restart it about 5 times ..

you'll just have to dig deep and find a little more if you've got a great mission that need to be updated cos of addon compatiblity its surely worth the effort?

think some people cant make missions or addons but see all these lovely new toys on sites like ofp.info to play with ,download em cant do a thing with them ..

fact. everyone loves addons

fact. everyone needs missions

the only person that should regulate addons is the end user .its for them to decide wot goes in thier collection and wot gets scrapped..

[philcommando 0]

hahaha!!..nah...where does missions comes from? It comes from either personal experience or a great story we come across. There are plenty of missions yet to be created out there.

The biggest obstacle that i am aware of are the unofficial addons - there are many and diverse. Fortunately BIS made the units 4 sided - East West Resistance and civilian - these are units that we come across in our daily lives. BIS did not make them US, Russian, Chinese, Arabs, etc, so u can fit those units to the story line u want to create as mission - a good side, the enemy side, the underdogs and the innocent - the necessary ingredients to a good immersive action.

Keep the mission simple - almost everyone loved the steal the car mission - nothing required, just plug and play.

Was the soldier a famous HYK unit?

Was the car a grahically enhaced 20mb model?

Were the enemies elegantly made RHS russians?

Were the buildings enterable hovels with carpets on the floor and pictures hanging on the wall?

Was the chopper flying overhead a full featured script enhanced flying miracle?

Was the island a 200mb photo shoot wonder?

The answer to the above is no, and yet, why did it appeal so much to everyone and led us all to where we are here today?

My point is - its not the addons, but a great mission concept that would appeal. Addons are only icing on the cake, but if no one wants to make great concepts, depending fully on unofficial addons, guess we'll have to bake our own cake and thank others for the icing we place on our own cake It would certainly be a loss to the community, for each and everyone of us have great imagination fueled by our own way of thinking based on cultural differences and so much creative missions could have been shared by this international community. Heed my words, its not the addons. Its the game concept u can create with what u have in the standard BIS addon folder. - a man is a man, a car is a car, a plane is a plane, a tank is a tank, etc...no matter how fanciful a name u give it, a rose by anyother name still smells as fragant.