European Politics Thread.

[aviel 0]

lol.... European Politics Thread?  

[Pathy 0]

They'd probably be happy to let in an australian or someone similiar into their little group, thats not the kind of "foreigness" they dislike.

Spot on. Someone can be 3rd generation British, of asian decent, but considered in BNP terms to be foreign. Its racism pure and simple.

[brgnorway 0]

They'd probably be happy to let in an australian or someone similiar into their little group, thats not the kind of "foreigness" they dislike.

Spot on. Someone can be 3rd generation British, of asian decent, but considered in BNP terms to be foreign. Its racism pure and simple.

Yep, and depressively so! One should expect that at least us european learned a lesson or two on how not to treat people considered different from ourselves after WWII. Well before that as well of course - as the word "pogrom" isn't exactly new to us!

Problem is that this - as in the thirties - has much to do with poverty, economic depression and people feeling better by placing the guilt on others different from themselves. I wonder if any of these idiots and racists never came up with the idea that they are responsable for their own fate instead of blaming it on others. Wankers!

[Pathy 0]

Yeh, my brother (adopted i gotta say ) is a good case study of this:

Recovering from about 5 years of drug abuse, owes thousands of pounds to various banks, without a job (cant work while on methadone), basically living off state benefits.....

...whats his opinion? "The economy is in ruins because of all of those f*cking P*ki's sponging off the state!!!"

No point in arguing with him about it, but in his mind, despite himself being a dependant on the state, its an ethnic minority to blame.

Alot of people in the UK dont actually realise we need immigrants to boost our economy. And as for them taking our jobs? Well, if you cant get a job when someone who may not even speak english can, then to be honest, how hard are you trying?

[denoir 0]

Problem is that this - as in the thirties - has much to do with poverty, economic depression and people feeling better by placing the guilt on others different from themselves.

I don't think it is worse now than say a decade ago. You always have your share of losers in society and since they can't take any pride in their own lives and achievements, they take pride in their nationality or race.

Pathy:

Quote[/b] ]The economy is in ruins because of all of those f*cking P*ki's sponging off the state!!!"

No point in arguing with him about it, but in his mind, despite himself being a dependant on the state, its an ethnic minority to blame.

Alot of people in the UK dont actually realise we need immigrants to boost our economy. And as for them taking our jobs? Well, if you cant get a job when someone who may not even speak english can, then to be honest, how hard are you trying?

Oddly enough, the "The immigrants will take all our jobs" went out of fashion here in Sweden with immigrant-hostile people. Today, you see the types of things that iNeo is writing here: that immigrants are criminals, rapists and that their culture is incompatible with ours and that we are losing our national identity.

However, in relative to other European countries, our anti-immigrant parties are very weak and have very few supporters. And support for them has been constantly falling for quite a while.

The reason for this is that in the late 90's (97 or 98, don't recall) a couple of neo-nazis killed two (Swedish) reporters. This resulted in a huge public outrage and an enormous media campaign against neo-nazis. The main news papers in Sweden cooperated and made a full map of the Swedish nazi underground. Not surprisingly, there were lots of connections to anti-immigrant parties, like Sveriedemokraterna. Then they did something unique and contrary to general policy - they published the names and pictures of all the members of these groups.

Overall, this had the effect of everybody distancing themselves from anything that could be seen as racist or immigrant hostile. Therefor we never saw a surge of xenophobic parties, like in the rest of Europe.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't think it is worse now than say a decade ago. You always have your share of losers in society and since they can't take any pride in their own lives and achievements, they take pride in their nationality or race.

I cannot answer for Sweden of course but Norway is another story! The problem isn't the extreme neo-nazi parties! The real danger is the far right wing party called "The progress party" . They have now become a household name and have gained popularity because of a combinatin of hostility towards people ethnicaly different from ourselves and tax cutting policy. So, you might say we have our very own Jurg Haider in Carl I. Hagen the leader of the party. To make matters even worse his party has a deciding parlamentarian position on the current government - and most certainly the next in the coming election. This affects the current governments policy towards asylum seekers etc. There have been occasions where people have been denied asylum only to be sent back to places where they have been killed/imprisoned soon after arrival

[aviel 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't think it is worse now than say a decade ago. You always have your share of losers in society and since they can't take any pride in their own lives and achievements, they take pride in their nationality or race.

I cannot answer for Sweden of course but Norway is another story! The problem isn't the extreme neo-nazi parties! The real danger is the far right wing party called "The progress party" . They have now become a household name and have gained popularity because of a combinatin of hostility towards people ethnicaly different from ourselves and tax cutting policy. So, you might say we have our very own Jurg Haider in Carl I. Hagen the leader of the party. To make matters even worse his party has a deciding parlamentarian position on the current government - and most certainly the next in the coming election. This affects the current governments policy towards asylum seekers etc. There have been occasions where people have been denied asylum only to be sent back to places where they have been killed/imprisoned soon after arrival  

Please read if you are intrested about european safty

My name is aviel, i live in the netherlands;

A muslim extremist group sayd they want to start attacking dutch sites and other ''anti muslim'' locations. just for theire ''respect'' that was dishonerd in theo van ghog's Film ''SUBMISSION 1/2'' theo van ghog was murderd a few weeks ago, just because some extremist was against the freedom of speach, but yes, it was a harming type of film, it shown a naked women with tekst from the koran (the holy islam book) on it, but that doesnt give you a reson to kill someone? does it?

if you do that, you directly offend the freedome of speach, well, many peapole are afrayd to be killed out here, many good politicians are hiding on secret places, afraid to say what they are thinking.

You ask if i am afraid?

To be honest? of course, i am jewish, there is only ONE jewish highschool in the netherlands, of course i am afraid .

the terror is likely chasing me and my family    from contry to contry, (i lived in israel my whole live till 2000)

You ask a solution?

To be honest? well, my only solution is to Find all the extremist groups out here, eaven on the dutch side who colaborate with those peapole. but thats likly impossible,

well, if thats not enough;

On some muslim schools, the pupils are teached to hate Jew's, homosexuals, christians, etc...

The dutch goverment is doing something about that! of course it does, but watching 1200 muslim schools is abit to much, isnt it?

please do not understand me wrong, i hate NO ONE i just say, why arent we living in peace? why there are always ethnic groups, wich develop hate against the innocent peapole?

[DarkLight 0]

please do not understand me wrong, i hate NO ONE i just say, why arent we living in peace? why there are always ethnic groups, wich develop hate against the innocent peapole?

Because humans are and will always be the biggest assholes on this planet.

[Akira 0]

In regard to the EU arms embargo/sale. Wonder if this is one of those "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" types of deals.

Quote[/b] ]China order for Airbus A380s delayed over EU arms embargo - report

Xinhua Financial News - December 2, 2004

BEIJING, Dec 03, 2004 (XFN-ASIA via COMTEX) -- European plane maker Airbus is due to receive an order from China for at least five of its new A380 flagship passenger jets with a total price tag of 1.4 bln usd, but the EU's arms embargo is delaying the signing of the deal, the Asian Wall Street Journal reported.

The paper quoted John Leahy, the top airplane salesman at Airbus, as saying Airbus had reached a provisional agreement to sell five A380s to an unnamed Asian airline and that he expected the deal to close within several months.

But the paper also quoted industry executives as saying the 15-year-old EU embargo on arms sales to China, imposed after the Tiananmen massacre in 1989, stood in the way of signing the deal.

The paper quoted Lu Xiaosong of China Aviation Supplies Import & Export Group, a spokesman for the Chinese government-controlled company that serves as an agent for airplane imports, as saying Chinese regulators and airlines have reached preliminary agreements to buy an unspecified number of A380s, but that the arms embargo and several other factors are standing in the way of finalizing the deal, and that this is understandable.

China Eastern Airlines is interested in purchasing A380s, an executive with the company said, but declined to specify how many, the Wall Street Journal reported. It said both China Southern Airlines and Air China are also potential buyers of A380s.

Link

[kerosene 0]

I dont understand this arms embargo, France sells choppers to China, they entered a joint venture to supply eurocopters in the late 90's to he PLA. How can that not be in breach of the embargo?

I cant speak for other countries, but from a British standpoint its a bit of joke, Blair paid lip service to an "ethical foreign policy" a while ago, we sell to Indonesia, they give us a promise not to use weapons in "internal repression", they do, we say they'll be an investigation, then the medias interest fizzles out. Why make exceptions for China at this point, the SAS trains notorious Colombian military units, etc, etc.

[Akira 0]

I also don't see how the A380 deal is being "held up" by the arms embargo unless it's a "we won't buy unless you lift" sort of deal. A number of Chinese airlines currently fly Airbus planes, and I doubt the A380 will have much in it that will be a military secret.

[EiZei 0]

Was pretty much obvious as of late but here it goes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4088345.stm

Quote[/b] ]

Ukraine candidate 'was poisoned'

Viktor Yushchenko in July (left) and November 2004

Mr Yushchenko's appearance changed almost overnight

Ukrainian opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko's mystery illness was caused by poisoning, his Vienna doctors say.

The doctors said extensive tests showed a form of dioxin had been used, leaving Mr Yushchenko's face disfigured.

They described the poisoning as serious and said that if left untreated it could have killed him.

Mr Yushchenko, 50, was taken ill in September as he campaigned for disputed elections that have now been declared invalid because of irregularities.

His supporters staged mass demonstrations against election fraud after his opponent Viktor Yanukovych was initially declared the winner.

The second round is now being re-run on 26 December.

Analysts say he would have to dispel any doubts about his health before becoming president.

Holy fuck

[bn880 5]

The poisoning _by opposition_ doesn't make any sense.

Anyone thinking logically knows that poisoning a democratic candidate is most likely going to result in much greater support for him and an uprising if he dies. SO really I am extremely surprized if anyone connected to the opposition or the Russians did this, I would more likely believe someone from his party wanting his position doing something odd like that.

Amazing..

[brgnorway 0]

The poisoning _by opposition_ doesn't make any sense.

Anyone thinking logically knows that poisoning a democratic candidate is most likely going to result in much greater support for him and an uprising if he dies.  SO really I am extremely surprized if anyone connected to the opposition or the Russians did this, I would more likely believe someone from his party wanting his position doing something odd like that.

Amazing..

Could make more sense than you think if the election effectively is about voting "persons" not parties!

Who gives a fuck about the party behind Putin in Russia?

[bn880 5]

Yeah, so a Democtatorship is the key word?

[brgnorway 0]

Yeah, so a Democtatorship is the key word?

lol, yes that's a good description!

[Apollo 0]

Well the stakes in Ukraine are pretty high actually ,not only for ukraine but also for Europe/US on one side and Russia on the other side ,bot support a different candidate as both have a number of strategic interrests in Ukraine.

I fear that it might come to a civil war in Ukraine ,and that by both power block's giving support to a seperate party in Ukraine it might coe to a neo-cold war conflict ,something similar to Afhanistan or Vietnam (although in these cases there was presence of a superpower involved) ,a better ex. would be the spanish civil war ,both "ideoligy's" supporting one faction millitary. (material wise)

It's strange how quickly the relations between the West and Russia are deterioating ,most people would have thought that With the Eu expanding and with russia fighting it's own war against terrorism ,as well as the rise of new power block's in Asia ,that Russia would come into better relations with the West. Seems however that the incorperation of the baltic states into the EU created a sort of devide between the EU and Russia where now the EU more and more begin's to see Russia again as a threat ,while russia sees EU expansion and growt of influence in the East as more of a threat to.

Logicly that Ukraine seems like an interresting buffer.

I wonder to what effect a join of Turkey might have on EU-Russian relations.

[Milkman 1]

The poisoning _by opposition_ doesn't make any sense.

Anyone thinking logically knows that poisoning a democratic candidate is most likely going to result in much greater support for him and an uprising if he dies. SO really I am extremely surprized if anyone connected to the opposition or the Russians did this, I would more likely believe someone from his party wanting his position doing something odd like that.

Amazing..

That’s an interesting way of looking at the situation, but I must disagree. Political Parties have been killing off the opposition for thousands of years now, what makes you think that in this specific case that that is not possible, but is instead quite the opposite? Even if his party was to gain support because of his death, who would replace him? If they could not come up with another charismatic, unifying leader, then they would lose. And to my limited knowledge, there is no "number 2" who can back up Yuschenko is he was to croak.

[billybob2002 0]

http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=110348

Quote[/b] ]

U.S. Money Helped Opposition in Ukraine

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration has spent more than $65 million in the past two years to aid political organizations in Ukraine, paying to bring opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko to meet U.S. leaders and helping to underwrite exit polls indicating he won last month's disputed runoff election.

U.S. officials say the activities don't amount to interference in Ukraine's election, as Russian President Vladimir Putin alleges, but are part of the $1 billion the State Department spends each year trying to build democracy worldwide.

No U.S. money was sent directly to Ukrainian political parties, the officials say. In most cases, it was funneled through organizations like the Carnegie Foundation or through groups aligned with Republicans and Democrats that organized election training, with human rights forums or with independent news outlets.

But officials acknowledge some of the money helped train groups and individuals opposed to the Russian-backed government candidate - people who now call themselves part of the Orange revolution.

For example, one group that got grants through U.S.-funded foundations is the Center for Political and Legal Reforms, whose Web site has a link to Yushchenko's home page under the heading "partners." Another project funded by the U.S. Agency for International Development brought a Center for Political and Legal Reforms official to Washington last year for a three-week training session on political advocacy.

"There's this myth that the Americans go into a country and, presto, you get a revolution," said Lorne Craner, a former State Department official who heads the International Republican Institute, which received $25.9 million last year to encourage democracy in Ukraine and more than 50 other countries.

"It's not the case that Americans can get 2 million people to turn out on the streets. The people themselves decide to do that," Craner said.

White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan said, "There's accountability in place. We make sure that money is being used for the purposes for which it's assigned or designated."

Since the Ukrainian Supreme Court invalidated the results of the Nov. 21 presidential runoff, Russia and the United States have traded charges of interference. A new election is scheduled for Dec. 26.

Opposition leaders, international monitors and Bush's election envoy to Ukraine have said major fraud marred the runoff between Yushchenko and current Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, who was declared the winner.

Yushchenko is friendlier toward Europe and the United States than his opponent, who has Putin's support as well as backing from the current Ukrainian government of President Leonid Kuchma. Putin lauded Yanukovych during state visits to Ukraine within a week of both the Oct. 31 election and the Nov. 21 runoff.

Yushchenko's backers say Russian support for Yanukovych goes beyond Putin's praise and includes millions of dollars in campaign funding and other assistance. Putin has said Russia has acted "absolutely correctly" with regard to Ukraine.

Documents and interviews provide a glimpse into how U.S. money was spent inside Ukraine.

"Our money doesn't go to candidates; it goes to the process, the institutions that it takes to run a free and fair election," State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said.

The exit poll, funded by the embassies of the United States and seven other nations as well as four international foundations, said Yushchenko won the Nov. 21 vote by 54 percent to 43 percent. Yanukovych and his supporters say the exit poll was skewed.

The Ukrainian groups that did the poll of more than 28,000 voters have not said how much the project cost. Neither has the U.S.

The four foundations involved included three funded by the U.S. government: The National Endowment for Democracy, which gets its money directly from Congress; the Eurasia Foundation, which gets money from the State Department, and the Renaissance Foundation, part of a network of charities funded by billionaire George Soros that gets money from the State Department. Other countries involved included Great Britain, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, Norway, Sweden and Denmark.

Grants from groups funded by the U.S. Agency for International Development also went to the International Center for Policy Studies, a think tank that includes Yushchenko on its supervisory board. The board also includes several current or former advisers to Kuchma, however.

IRI, Craner's Republican-backed group, used U.S. money to help Yushchenko arrange meetings with Vice President Dick Cheney, Assistant Secretary of State Richard Armitage and GOP leaders in Congress in February 2003.

The State Department gave the National Democratic Institute, a group of Democratic foreign policy experts, nearly $48 million for worldwide democracy-building programs in 2003. Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright chairs NDI's board of directors.

The NDI says representatives of parties in all the blocs that participated in Ukraine's 2002 parliamentary elections have attended its seminars to learn skills such as writing party platforms, organizing bases of voter support and developing party structures. NDI also has been a main financial and administrative backer of the Committee of Voters of Ukraine, an election watchdog group that said the presidential vote was not conducted fairly.

NDI also organized a 35-member team of election observers headed by former federal appeals court Judge Abner Mikva for the Nov. 21 runoff vote. IRI sent its own team of observers.

The U.S. Agency for International Development also funds the Center for Ukrainian Reform Education, which produces radio and television programs aiming to educate Ukrainian citizens about reforming their nation's government and economy. The center also sponsors press clubs and education for journalists.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Same old trickery by CIA and State Department, what a surprise. Shame it didn't work on Chavez though, ey

Seriously, why do you have to get involved in everything. Why can't you just stay at home and acknowledge the UN as a higher authority, just like everyone else does

[aviel 0]

why peapole cant accept losing?? damn, this is like playing monepoly and screaming not fair eavry second.

Question:

How NO ONE noticed that DRAMATICAL Change on his face??

he looked 1000X more jonger in another photo taken a month ago.

and; wasnt dioxine used by the KGB?

[billybob2002 0]

Same old trickery by CIA and State Department, what a surprise. Shame it didn't work on Chavez though, ey

Seriously, why do you have to get involved in everything. Why can't you just stay at home and acknowledge the UN as a higher authority, just like everyone else does

This is not CIA trickery but a western world thing...

Quote[/b] ]The four foundations involved included three funded by the U.S. government: The National Endowment for Democracy, which gets its money directly from Congress; the Eurasia Foundation, which gets money from the State Department, and the Renaissance Foundation, part of a network of charities funded by billionaire George Soros that gets money from the State Department. Other countries involved included Great Britain, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, Norway, Sweden and Denmark.

 

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]The four foundations involved included three funded by the U.S. government: The National Endowment for Democracy, which gets its money directly from Congress; the Eurasia Foundation, which gets money from the State Department, and the Renaissance Foundation, part of a network of charities funded by billionaire George Soros that gets money from the State Department. Other countries involved included Great Britain, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, Norway, Sweden and Denmark.

 

Could you provide a link please, because I really doubt Norwegian authoroties would do anything so stupid all the time we are heavily involved in business, environmental issues and trade with Russia!

I could be wrong of course, but if so also very surprised!

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]The four foundations involved included three funded by the U.S. government: The National Endowment for Democracy, which gets its money directly from Congress; the Eurasia Foundation, which gets money from the State Department, and the Renaissance Foundation, part of a network of charities funded by billionaire George Soros that gets money from the State Department. Other countries involved included Great Britain, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, Norway, Sweden and Denmark.

 

Could you provide a link please, because I really doubt Norwegian authoroties would do anything so stupid all the time we are heavily involved in business, environmental issues and trade with Russia!

I could be wrong of course, but if so also very surprised!

The only info about the International Renaissance Foundation is old and did not include who funded them (ex. Soros).

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]The four foundations involved included three funded by the U.S. government: The National Endowment for Democracy, which gets its money directly from Congress; the Eurasia Foundation, which gets money from the State Department, and the Renaissance Foundation, part of a network of charities funded by billionaire George Soros that gets money from the State Department. Other countries involved included Great Britain, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, Norway, Sweden and Denmark.

 

Could you provide a link please, because I really doubt Norwegian authoroties would do anything so stupid all the time we are heavily involved in business, environmental issues and trade with Russia!

I could be wrong of course, but if so also very surprised!

The only info about the International Renaissance Foundation is old and did not include who funded them (ex. Soros).

Couldn't find anything of interest there. Could you give me a link to your text pls?