European Politics Thread.

[SpongeBob 0]

Quote[/b] ]Neo-Nazis March as Dresden Remembers War Dead

DRESDEN, Germany (Reuters) - Waving black flags and carrying banners, thousands of neo-Nazis marched in Dresden on Sunday, marring the official 60th anniversary commemoration of one of the fiercest Allied bombing raids of World War II.

Police said around 5,000 people joined the march in the eastern German city, making it one of the biggest far-right demonstrations since the war. Around 50 people, including anti-fascist protesters, were arrested after minor clashes.

Once on the fringe, far-right parties have seized on Germany's recognition finally of its own wartime suffering to grab headlines and forge political gains, especially in the east where unemployment remains high 15 years after unification.

The far right is hoping to repeat its electoral successes next week in the western state of Schleswig Holstein and in May in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany's most populous region.

An Infratest Dimap poll for WDR television on Sunday put support for far-right parties in North Rhine-Westphalia at three percent, up one percent from January, but still below the five percent threshold needed to enter parliament there.

Before the march, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder pledged to stop far-right groups exploiting the anniversary and portraying Germany as a war victim while ignoring Nazi atrocities.

Thousands of police, backed by water cannon, were drafted into Dresden to stop clashes.

Far-right supporters -- banned from wearing bomber jackets and boots -- marched to the music of Wagner, carrying balloons saying: "Allied bomb terror -- then as now. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden and today Baghdad. No forgiveness, no forgetting."

Several hundred anti-fascist activists chanted "Nazis out" from neighboring streets and threw pink paper airplanes with Royal Air Force markings.

[Donnervogel 0]

one should also mention that most citizens of Dresden were against this demonstration and made some sort of silent protest by wearing white roses. Also those nazis came there from all over Germany. It's not like all those 5000 nazis are from Dresden.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Well... fact is that there is a far greater problem with right wing groups around dresden than is known untill now. No need to talk that down!

[nSe7eN 0]

Quote[/b] ]Neo-Nazis March as Dresden Remembers War Dead

DRESDEN, Germany (Reuters) - Waving black flags and carrying banners, thousands of neo-Nazis marched in Dresden on Sunday, marring the official 60th anniversary commemoration of one of the fiercest Allied bombing raids of World War II.

Police said around 5,000 people joined the march in the eastern German city, making it one of the biggest far-right demonstrations since the war. Around 50 people, including anti-fascist protesters, were arrested after minor clashes.

Once on the fringe, far-right parties have seized on Germany's recognition finally of its own wartime suffering to grab headlines and forge political gains, especially in the east where unemployment remains high 15 years after unification.

The far right is hoping to repeat its electoral successes next week in the western state of Schleswig Holstein and in May in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany's most populous region.

An Infratest Dimap poll for WDR television on Sunday put support for far-right parties in North Rhine-Westphalia at three percent, up one percent from January, but still below the five percent threshold needed to enter parliament there.

Before the march, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder pledged to stop far-right groups exploiting the anniversary and portraying Germany as a war victim while ignoring Nazi atrocities.

Thousands of police, backed by water cannon, were drafted into Dresden to stop clashes.

Far-right supporters -- banned from wearing bomber jackets and boots -- marched to the music of Wagner, carrying balloons saying: "Allied bomb terror -- then as now. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden and today Baghdad. No forgiveness, no forgetting."

Several hundred anti-fascist activists chanted "Nazis out" from neighboring streets and threw pink paper airplanes with Royal Air Force markings.

They are not just some movement or organization!

But there is a hacking groups, clan’s and websites that support them in way or another!

Even in some sound packs for enemy territory they include some voices for Hitler or some known Nazi songs or message of the day in some servers!

http://rapidshare.de/files-en/604391/245/sound.zip

That sound pack is really funny though!

[Donnervogel 0]

Well... fact is that there is a far greater problem with right wing groups around dresden than is known untill now. No need to talk that down!

Well I would never talk it down in a discussion with German people. But when you have foreign people you have to put some things in perspective because they don't watch German media and somethimes don't know some things. It is important for everyone to have a realistic picture before you discuss a topic.

And the claim that there is a speacial problem with right wing movements in the east is arguable too. A recent research showed that the support for right-wing organisations (support in the sense of agreement with their agenda - not the so called "Protestwähler") is higher in the western parts of germany than in the east.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ] After the Cold War had ended, then Italian prime minister Giulio Andreotti confirmed to the Italian Senate in August 1990 that Italy had had a secret stay-behind army, codenamed Gladio – the sword.

A document dated 1 June 1959 from the Italian military secret service, SIFAR, revealed that SIFAR had been running the secret army with the support of NATO and in close collaboration with the US secret service, the CIA.

Suggesting that the secret army might have linked up with right-wing organizations such as Ordine Nuovo and Avanguardia Nazionale to engage in domestic terror, the Italian Senate, amid public protests, decided in 1990 that Gladio was beyond democratic control and therefore had to be closed down.

During the 1990s, research into stay-behind armies progressed only very slowly, due to very limited access to primary documents. It was revealed, however, that stay-behind armies covered all of Western Europe and operated under different code names, such as Gladio in Italy, Absalon in Denmark, P26 in Switzerland, ROC in Norway, I&O in the Netherlands, and SDRA8 in Belgium.

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel....id=1720

(note the source)

Page 2

A long read but a very interesting one.

Check google for operation Gladio for more sources.

[theavonlady 2]

All is forgotten!

Quote[/b] ]French fries back on menu for Bush

Mon Feb 21, 9:33 PM ET

By Adam Entous

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - U.S. President George W. Bush called the French leader by his first name Jacques, ate "French fries", and joked about inviting the Iraq war opponent to his Texas ranch, saying, "I'm looking for a good cowboy".

Bush's self-described working dinner with President Jacques Chirac, like the rest of his European tour, was meant to showcase his willingness to reach out to long-time European critics, including Chirac, who led opposition to the war.

A senior Bush administration official described their meeting in Brussels on Monday as the best ever -- "warm under any measure" -- and proof relations had come a long way from the tense days before the Iraq invasion, when the U.S. Congress renamed French fries "Freedom Fries" and Bush's plane, Air Force One, served "Freedom Toast" rather than "French toast."

"This is my first dinner, since I've been re-elected, on European soil, and it's with Jacques Chirac -- and that ought to say something," Bush said with Chirac at his side.

"It ought to say how important this relationship is for me personally and how important this relationship is for my country," Bush told reporters.

Even the food was conciliatory. They ate French fries, which Bush was keen to point out.

Their meeting lasted far longer than planned -- 2-1/2 hours instead of 1-1/2 -- and they laughed a lot, French presidential spokesman Jerome Bonnafont told reporters.

"It was one of their best meetings and best extended discussions ever," the Bush administration official effused.

Few relationships were as badly frayed by the Iraq war as theirs.

In an April 2003 interview, Bush said there were some strains in ties between Washington and Paris because it "appeared to some in our administration and our country that the French position was anti-American."

Bush said in the interview that Chirac should not expect an invitation to his Texas ranch any time soon.

GOOD ADVICE

But before their working dinner of lobster risotto and filet of beef in bordelaise sauce, both leaders made the case that all was well now.

Bush declared, "I've really been looking forward to this moment."

"Every time I meet with Jacques he's got good advice. And I'm looking forward to listening to you," Bush told the French president. "We've got a lot of issues to talk about -- Middle Eastern peace, Lebanon, Iran, helping to feed the hungry."

Bush was asked by a French reporter if relations were now good enough for Bush to invite Chirac to his Crawford, Texas, ranch, an honour bestowed by Bush on his closest allies.

"I'm looking for a good cowboy," Bush responded.

He did not elaborate.

In what may be a tentative first step to a ranch invitation, Chirac plans to visit the White House in coming months, officials said.

For his part, Chirac insisted that relations with Bush have always been "very warm," and he touted shared priorities from securing Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Haiti to responding to December's devastating tsunami in Asia and fighting terrorism.

"Of course, that doesn't mean that because we share common values we necessarily agree on everything all the time," he said.

The senior Bush administration official said the leaders did not revisit disagreements over the Iraq invasion.

"The United States is not looking to re-fight the battles of 2003. That debate is a legitimate debate which will be had by historians... But that is not the subject of American diplomacy," the official said.

Despite their public display of bonhomie, tensions remain -- from how to deal with Iran's nuclear programme to whether the EU should serve as a counter-balance to U.S. dominance.

"Of course, we can have our differences," Chirac said. "Recently this was the case; we didn't share the same view over Iraq. But this in no way affects or in no way undermines the bedrock of our relations."

Next up: saur kraut!

[-33ker 0]

Bush is coming to Germany tomorrow.

BTW, Chirac and Schröder will meet in my little hometown, which is actually also the hometown of Schröder. And I was chosen to be one of the students to represent our school at the press conference.

[theavonlady 2]

And I was chosen to be one of the students to represent our school at the press conference.

Straighten out your cigarette.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Bush is coming to Germany tomorrow.

BTW, Chirac and Schröder will meet in my little hometown, which is actually also the hometown of Schröder. And I was chosen to be one of the students to represent our school at the press conference.

Wear an "OFP ROX" shirt or something else to be on telly

[theavonlady 2]

Bush is coming to Germany tomorrow.

BTW, Chirac and Schröder will meet in my little hometown, which is actually also the hometown of Schröder. And I was chosen to be one of the students to represent our school at the press conference.

Wear an "OFP ROX" shirt or something else to be on telly

Or on your belly.

(I could've made a fortune! )

[nSe7eN 0]

*Ofp ROX you’re SOX*

Though he is going to Russia too, to discuss issues like the Russian support for the Iranian nuclear projects, and other economic issues!

[-33ker 0]

I think my good old M65 Jacket will do...

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Piss Off - A Belgian novelty shows what the good people of Brussels really think about George W. Bush

by Paul Belien

02/22/2005 8:40:00 AM

The newest Belgian fad--a Bush urinal sticker.

Brussels

WHEN JOHAN VANDE LANOTTE, Belgium's Vice Prime Minister, goes to the toilets today, he finds the urinals in the offices of his ministry decorated with stickers. They show an American flag and the head of George W. Bush. "Go ahead. Piss on me," the caption says. Vande Lanotte is one of Bush's hosts in Brussels. Is peeing on your guest's head appropriate? In Belgium it is. After all, Brussels' best known statue is that of "Manneken Pis," a peeing boy.

The piss stickers, specially made to be used in urinals, can be seen these days in the public toilets of Belgian schools, youth clubs, and pubs. They were designed by Laurent Winnock, president of the Young Socialists, the youth branch of Vande Lanotte's Socialist party. Winnock did his creative work during his office hours, which would not be worth mentioning if Winnock did not work in the offices of Vice Prime Minister Vande Lanotte, as one of his press spokesmen.

Last Friday, Belgian television asked Robert "Steve" Stevaert, the Socialist party leader, what he thought of the stickers. It had not been his idea, he stressed, but he refused to distance himself from it. He hardly could, seeing as the stickers can be ordered for free through the party's official website. For Belgian television viewers the message was clear: Bush may be our government's guest, the ministers will greet him, smile and tell him that he is most welcome, but we all know what they think of the bastard.

For those who missed the

"subtlety" of the urinal stickers, Laurette Onkelinx, the Belgian minister of Justice and one of the Socialist party's most powerful figures, let go during prime time on Sunday evening, as Air Force One was about to land in Brussels. "I would rather have had John Kerry visiting us," she said on television. When the interviewer asked whether it was not undiplomatic to say so, she answered: "No. That is how I feel about it."

Meanwhile, however, a citizen of Ghent, where the stickers had also been distributed, has filed a complaint with the Belgian judiciary headed by Onkelinx. "This sticker has nothing to do with freedom of speech," he says. "If I go to the gents in the pub nowadays, I am forced to pee on Bush and the American flag because it is impossible to miss this sticker."

I do not know whether the president is aware of the real feelings of his Belgian hosts. Has the American Embassy in Brussels informed him? This question crossed my mind, as he was delivering his speech to a crowd of politicians, journalists, and businessmen in the prestigious halls of Brussels' Concert Noble on Monday afternoon. There, under a huge painting of Leopold II, Belgium's late-19th-century king (and the tyrant of the Congo), Bush addressed a few hundred people invited by the U.S. Embassy. I know some of them. They used to be my colleagues.

Fifteen years ago, I was sacked by a Belgian newspaper because I had written an article in the Wall Street Journal which the Belgian politicians did not like. Being a somewhat conservative and pro-American journalist, I was a regular contributor to the Journal in the late 1980s and early 1990s. These articles were not liked by my liberal colleagues, nor by the Belgian regime. On April 6, 1990, I was fired after writing a Journal op-ed piece about how a major story had been ignored by the Belgian media under political pressure from the top political parties.

That day ended my career as a newspaper journalist. None of the Belgian papers has been willing to employ me since. Fifteen years later I am still known by my former colleagues as "that fascist from the Wall Street Journal." And now I could see those same editors sitting in the audience, listening to a man whom they despise.

Indeed, they think that the world will be saved if America becomes more like Europe, whereas I think that Europe will be saved only if it becomes more like America. But that is an opinion which no one in Europe is allowed to have. Those who do, get peed upon.

Dr. Paul Belien is the author of the forthcoming book A Throne in Brussels on the "Belgianisation" of Europe (Imprint Academic, May 2005).

[SpongeBob 0]

Quote[/b] ]More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales

By MARLISE SIMONS

February 27, 2005

NY Times

MSTERDAM - Paul Hiltemann had already noticed a darkening mood in the Netherlands. He runs an agency for people wanting to emigrate and his client list had surged.

But he was still taken aback in November when a Dutch filmmaker was shot and his throat was slit, execution style, on an Amsterdam street.

In the weeks that followed, Mr. Hiltemann was inundated by e-mail messages and telephone calls. "There was a big panic," he said, "a flood of people saying they wanted to leave the country."

Leave this stable and prosperous corner of Europe? Leave this land with its generous social benefits and ample salaries, a place of fine schools, museums, sports grounds and bicycle paths, all set in a lively democracy?

The answer, increasingly, is yes. This small nation is a magnet for immigrants, but statistics suggest there is a quickening flight of the white middle class. Dutch people pulling up roots said they felt a general pessimism about their small and crowded country and about the social tensions that had grown along with the waves of newcomers, most of them Muslims."The Dutch are living in a kind of pressure cooker atmosphere," Mr. Hiltemann said.

There is more than the concern about the rising complications of absorbing newcomers, now one-tenth of the population, many of them from largely Muslim countries. Many Dutch also seem bewildered that their country, run for decades on a cozy, political consensus, now seems so tense and prickly and bent on confrontation. Those leaving have been mostly lured by large English-speaking nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, where they say they hope to feel less constricted.

In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags. But the killing of the filmmaker Theo van Gogh, a fierce critic of fundamentalist Muslims, seems to have been a catalyst.

"Our Web site got 13,000 hits in the weeks after the van Gogh killing," said Frans Buysse, who runs an agency that handles paperwork for departing Dutch. "That's four times the normal rate."

Mr. van Gogh's killing is the only one the police have attributed to an Islamic militant, but since then they have reported finding death lists by local Islamic militants with the names of six prominent politicians. The effects still reverberate. In a recent opinion poll, 35 percent of the native Dutch questioned had negative views about Islam.

There are no precise figures on the numbers now leaving. But Canadian, Australian and New Zealand diplomats here said that while immigration papers were processed in their home capitals, embassy officials here had been swamped by inquiries in recent months.

Many who settle abroad may not appear in migration statistics, like the growing contingent of retirees who flock to warmer places. But official statistics show a trend. In 1999, nearly 30,000 native Dutch moved elsewhere, according to the Central Bureau of Statistics. For 2004, the provisional figure is close to 40,000. "It's definitely been picking up in the past five years," said Cor Kooijmans, a demographer at the bureau.

Ruud Konings, an accountant, has just sold his comfortable home in the small town of Hilvarenbeek. In March, after a year's worth of paperwork, the family will leave for Australia. The couple said the main reason was their fear for the welfare and security of their two teenage children.

"When I grew up, this place was spontaneous and free, but my kids cannot safely cycle home at night," said Mr. Konings, 49. "My son just had his fifth bicycle stolen." At school, his children and their friends feel uneasy, he added. "They're afraid of being roughed up by the gangs of foreign kids."

Sandy Sangen has applied to move to Norway with her husband and two school-age children. They want to buy a farm in what she calls "a safer, more peaceful place."

Like the Sangens and Koningses, others who are moving speak of their yearning for the open spaces, the clean air, the easygoing civility they feel they have lost. Complaints include overcrowding, endless traffic jams, overregulation. Some cite a rise in antisocial behavior and a worrying new toughness and aggression both in political debates and on the streets.

Until the killing of Pim Fortuyn, a populist anti-immigration politician, in 2002 and the more recent slaying of a teacher by a student, this generation of Dutch people could not conceive of such violence in their peaceful country.

After Mr. van Gogh's killing, angry demonstrations and fire-bombings of mosques and Muslim schools took place. In revenge, some Christian churches were attacked. Mr. Konings said he and many of his friends sensed more confrontation in the making, perhaps more violence.

"I'm a great optimist, but we're now caught in a downward spiral, economically and socially," he said. "We feel we can give our children a better start somewhere else."

Marianne and Rene Aukens, from the rural town of Brunssum, had successful careers, he as director of a local bank, she as a personnel manager. But after much thought they have applied to go to New Zealand. "In my lifetime, all the villages around here have merged, almost all the green spaces have been paved over," said Mr. Aukens, 41. "Nature is finished. There's no more silence; you hear traffic everywhere."

The saying that the Netherlands is "full up" has become a national mantra. It was used cautiously at first, because it had an overtone of being anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim. But many of those interviewed now state it flatly, like Peter Bles. He makes a long commute to a banking job in Amsterdam, but he and his wife are preparing to move to Australia.

"We found people are more polite, less stressed, less aggressive there," Mr. Bles said. "Perhaps stress has a lot to do with the lack of living space. Here we are full up."

Space is indeed at a premium here in Europe's most densely populated nation, where 16.3 million people live in an area roughly the size of Maryland. Denmark, which is slightly larger, has 5.5 million people. Dutch demographers say their country has undergone one of Europe's fastest and most far-reaching demographic shifts, with about 10 percent of the population now foreign born, a majority of them Muslims.

Blaming immigrants for many ills has become commonplace. Conservative Moroccans and Turks from rural areas are accused of disdaining the liberal Dutch ways and of making little effort to adapt. Immigrant youths now make up half the prison population. More than 40 percent of immigrants receive some form of government assistance, a source of resentment among native Dutch. Immigrants say, though, that they are widely discriminated against.

Ms. Konings said the Dutch themselves brought on some of the social frictions. The Dutch "thought that we had to adapt to the immigrants and that we had to give them handouts," she said. "We've been too lenient; now it's difficult to turn the tide."

To Mr. Hiltemann, the emigration consultant, what is remarkable is not only the surge of interest among the Dutch in leaving, but also the type of people involved. "They are successful people, I mean, urban professionals, managers, physiotherapists, computer specialists," he said. Five years ago, he said, most of his clients were farmers looking for more land.

Mr. Buysse, who employs a staff of eight to process visas, concurred. He said farmers were still emigrating as Europe cut agricultural subsidies. '"What is new," he said, "is that Dutch people who are rich or at least very comfortable are now wanting to leave the country."

[iNeo 0]

Quote[/b] ]More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales

Sucks.

We must rise and retaliate not flee.

[kerosene 0]

Whos "We"?

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales

Sucks.

We must rise and retaliate not flee.

Quote[/b] ]Putting the fear of God into Holland

By Brian Moynahan

The Dutch have rejected liberalism in response to Islamic immigration. Some say they are now too hardline. So what can the rest of Europe learn from their crisis?

Not long ago, Holland prided itself as being the most tolerant and welcoming country in Europe for immigrants and asylum seekers. It had the credentials to prove it. So many have settled there, ethnic "minorities" are often in a majority. In the great Dutch cities of Amsterdam, Rotterdam and the Hague, the newcomers already outnumber the native Dutch among under-20-year-olds. They will soon be an absolute majority.

Although the slump that followed the 1973 oil shock removed the urgent need to recruit labour, the Dutch accepted that the "guest workers" in the country could remain. The policy was to create a multicultural society in which cultural and ethnic differences were accepted and appreciated.

Some immigrants came from former Dutch colonies. The two largest groups, however, Turkish and Moroccan, had no historic links with the Netherlands. The Dutch nonetheless accepted the reunification of families, and the practice of marrying partners from the country of origin, even though these can have an eight- or tenfold multiplier effect on overall numbers. Asylum seekers then arrived, in numbers that escalated from 3,500 in 1985 to over 43,000 in 2000.

The figures were pro rata among the highest in the EU. Illegals came, too, mainly after 1990, with estimates running from 100,000 to 200,000. The Dutch supplied funding for mosques, religious schools, language courses and housing. They passed special legislation so Moroccans could have dual nationality, as Moroccan nationality is inalienable under Moroccan law. Political correctness, of the sort that produced Harry Enfield's famously relaxed Amsterdam policemen, reigned. Issues felt at street level — immigration, crime, culture, national identity — were seldom discussed by the political elite.

No longer. A sea change has taken place. It was evident after the death last month of a young Dutch Moroccan, identified only as Ali El B. Several hundred Moroccans congregated on the street where a driver had run him over, reversing into him after he had stolen her bag. They had made a shrine on the pavement, with flowers and candles, and there was talk of racism and murder. The crowd set off on a march to pay their respects at a mosque not far away. The boys were in a long gaggle at the front. The girls, neater, were in disciplined ranks at the rear. Some had Moroccan flags draped over their shoulders. They chanted in Arabic for a while, and passers-by looked and scurried on.

The mosque was on the ground floor in a row of old gabled houses, some converted into offices, that looked out over a broad waterway. A racing skiff, a pair, was splashing through the wavelets thrown up by a blustery gale. Television cameramen darted round the crowd as it milled outside the mosque. An elderly Dutchman looked down from his flat at the sea of hoods and scarves and red-and-green flags, with an utterly forlorn expression.

Nobody doubts that Ali El B would once have become a martyred innocent. Now, attempts to portray him like that were sat on fast and hard. The fiercest comment came from Geert Wilders. The hard line this right-wing MP takes on immigrants and terrorists has made him the fastest-rising star in the political firmament.

It has also brought threats of beheading from radical Islamists, so he is now shackled to six bodyguards and has secure lodgings on army bases. "All Moroccan troublemakers should be expelled," Wilders says. "The government wants to expel terrorists. The same process should be used for street terrorists like Ali El B. Detain them, de-naturalise them and deport them." Wilders is a firebrand. Rita Verdonk is the minister for immigration and integration, and a mainstream Conservative. She, too, is implacable. "If the boy hadn't stolen the bag," she says, "he'd be riding around on his scooter today."

But the real pointer to how far Holland has shifted comes from Job Cohen, the mayor of Amsterdam. Cohen is Labour, from the party that personified political correctness and the more-the-merrier, they-can-do-no-wrong approach to immigrants. "We have to admit," the mayor says, "that this was not a sweet and blameless youth, to put it mildly."

The consensus has shifted across the board. In a country that can still seem a parody of itself — a magistrate ruled recently that an armed robber was entitled to a tax rebate on the cost of his gun as a tool of his trade — even the leader of the Green party has called for it to be illegal for Muslims to import spouses through arranged marriages. Integrated teams, drawn from the police, social welfare and housing offices, are used to locate and arrest illegals. Social welfare knows who is drawing benefit, housing offices have addresses, and police check for criminal records. The number of asylum seekers has been slashed from 43,000 to 10,000 a year, nine-tenths of whom have their applications rejected.

Multiculturalism is damned. A recent poll found 80% in favour of stronger measures to get immigrants to integrate — and 40% said they "hoped" Muslims "no longer feel at home here".

How did this happen? The first open shift came in 2001, with 9/11. Frits Bolkestein, the leader of the VVD Conservative Liberals, had struck a chord in the 1990s with his insistence that immigrants conform to western culture, but immigration issues were largely the preserve of "racists" and "crypto-Nazis" on the political margins. Then came reports that the atrocities in New York and Washington had been greeted with cheers in parts of Rotterdam. Forum, the Dutch institute for multicultural development, commissioned an opinion poll of Dutch Muslims. It showed that 48% had "complete understanding" and 27% "some understanding" of the attacks. Overall, only 62% disapproved. Wim Kok, the then prime minister, expressed his shock. The poll was said to be "unbalanced".

Another was held. This found that, although only a small number of Turkish and Surinamese Muslims supported the attacks, 26% of ethnic Moroccans approved of them.

This startling fact helped make the brief political career of Pim Fortuyn, an openly gay, flamboyant former Marxist professor turned magazine columnist. He founded his Leefbaar Rotterdam party — "Liveable Rotterdam" — on an anti-multicultural, law-and-order, stop-immigration platform.

Fortuyn was hard to pin down as a racist, let alone fascist. He was socially liberal, opposed the death penalty, and supported human rights and nondiscrimination. Members of ethnic minorities joined the party. A young, black businessman was No 2 on his national election list. He was often described as a "Dutch Le Pen", as Wilders is now, but both comparisons are facile, and Fortuyn himself said he would not vote for the Frenchman.

He broke the paralysis that political correctness had brought to immigration. "I'm saying we've got big problems in our cities," he said. "It's not very smart to make the problem bigger by letting in millions more immigrants from rural Muslim cultures that don't assimilate."

He wanted immigration stopped. "Holland is full," he said, and the Dutch were losing control of their own country. He didn't want to return those already legally in the country, but insisted that they learn to adapt to western culture, and not vice versa. He was also critical of Islam as a "backward culture" that discriminated against women. The enthusiasm of some Dutch Muslims for the New York massacre made his claims hard to dismiss as the ranting of a bigot.

His party, from a near-standing start, came to power in the Rotterdam local elections in March 2002. He was on track for a breakthrough in the May 2002 general elections when he was shot dead.

It was the first political assassination in Holland since the 17th century. The impact was deep and palpable. Free speech has a particular resonance in the country, perhaps as a result of wartime occupation. Fortuyn had already been branded a fascist for questioning the status quo on immigration. Now his views had got him killed, by a white, Dutch animal-rights activist. Several of his ideas — compulsory assimilation programmes for newcomers and those with poor Dutch on social-security benefit, and tighter rules on immigrants bringing in spouses from abroad — were to be adopted in any event.

A third shock came with the murder in November of Theo van Gogh, the film director, columnist and provocateur. He had made a short film, Submission, on the rape and humiliation of women in Islam. It was studiously offensive — he had spun a career out of reckless insults — and featured verses of the Koran written on the thinly veiled body of an abused Muslim woman.

He made the film with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a petite Somali refugee who is a Liberal MP in the Dutch parliament. Herself a Muslim, she is an outspoken critic of Islam, speaking of genital mutilation, arranged marriages and the turning of women into "baby machines".

Van Gogh was offered, but refused, protection. He was shot as he cycled through Amsterdam. His murderer then half-butchered him, slitting his throat with a knife, which he then used to pin a letter to the dead man's chest. This claimed that the Dutch were under Jewish control, and called for a jihad against Hirsi Ali, the United States, the Netherlands, Europe and all infidels.

The murder forced another highly sensitive issue — religion — into the mix. The Dutch were brought face to face with the disturbing fact that a full-blown jihadist group had grown up in their midst, and that it was locally born and recruited. It was, they say, their own 9/11. Van Gogh's alleged assassin, Mohammed B, a 26-year-old Dutch Moroccan, spoke and wrote excellent Dutch. The farewell letter found on him when he was arrested was written in rhyming couplets, in the style that Dutch families send to one another each Sinterklaas (Santa Claus) Day, December 5. He had studied at a well-regarded lyceum before dropping out of a technical institute.

He then started spending time at the Al-Tawhid mosque in Amsterdam. At some stage he joined a militant Islamic group, the Hofstad group, named after the Hague, where it was based. It was led by Redouan al-Issa, alias Abu Khaled, a Syrian-born geologist turned spiritual leader. Mohammed B's friends included Samir Azzouz, an 18-year-old radical later arrested for plotting to bomb Schiphol airport and the Dutch parliament.

Slums and poverty played no part in Mohammed B's background. He grew up in pleasant, low-rise housing in west Amsterdam, graffiti-free, with open spaces and playgrounds. When arrested, he was living in good council housing. The street has small, modern houses, with well-tended gardens, the hedges trimmed, and a heron often standing on a rooftop. Lace curtains mark the Dutch houses; satellite dishes are the ubiquitous indicator of immigrants.

Whether Mohammed B is guilty of this crime or not, the mechanics of how young men such as him are drawn into these groups are well known. "The breeding grounds are websites, prisons and the mosques," says a security expert. The preacher Abu Khaled, suspected of radicalising Mohammed B, was active in mosques in Germany and various parts of Holland. Websites make it possible for extremists to recruit from afar. The young who become interested talk to each other on chat rooms.

The British would-be shoe bomber, Richard Reid, is one of those converted in prison.

The "why?" is more complex. Ahmed Aboutaleb, a Dutch Moroccan on the Amsterdam council, is one of several leading politicians — with Wilders ("it's like being caught in a bad B-movie"), Cohen the mayor, and Verdonk, the immigration minister — who have had to live with bodyguards after assassination threats since the van Gogh murder.

He says that imams with a political agenda and money from the Middle East are active. "Some come from sects that are banned in Egypt," he says, "but the border here is open to money and influence from abroad." The liberal approach includes the police, he notes, who deal with troublemakers with a softness that astonishes their Moroccan counterparts.

He says, too, that the debate on Islam causes tensions. "Muslims are not used to focusing on sensitive issues within their own religion," he says. "They are very rural populations here. They see the debate as an attack on their personal identity."

A reaction is seen. "Muslims now have a big urge, a big need to show their Muslim identity — to show it obviously, even," says Karim Traida, a stylish Algerian film director with a nomination for a Golden Globe. "So there is the risk of a clash. The clash is already in the mind. Muslims fear that, if they open up, they'll wind up like the Christians — very decadent. So when Islam looks at Christian history, it's worried by what goes with liberalism. They think of the decadence of European society."

Islam in Europe, he adds, "has no roots yet. It's unstable, a new phenomenon, and the mosques want to stay secret. Parents are afraid that their children will go into decadent Dutch society, so they bring them back to Islam".

There is a generational problem. "The confrontation with these boys is because they grew up here," says Ahmed Marcouch, gesturing at El B's friends at the mosque, where he is a senior official. "In the Seventies, the newcomers didn't speak Dutch, so they were more subdued. This generation have more strains on them. There's a clash between the culture they have at home and the one at school and on the street."

Age, of course, is a factor. "The young are open to everything," says Uzeyir Kabaktepe, the vice president of the Turkish Milli Gorus mosque in Amsterdam. "If you give them pure Koran, they become extremist. All doors close for them. 'Everything else is black,' they think, 'but I'm white and I'm going to paradise.' Those who see black and white think they are angels, they think they are flying. If a Dutchman speaks to them on the street, they think 'he's a Zionist' or 'he's a Satan'. We give the Koran, not pure, but with explanations. We make them debate with each other. We show them that some of the dark ones, the infidels, are religious people too."

The Moroccans, he says, are different. "They brought their ideas to Europe with them, and they don't budge," he claims. "Democracy for Arabs is Satanic, it's from the West, against God's word. Idiot imams came who said the Dutch and everything to do with them — schools, society — are devils. They said: get a second wife, from abroad, so the devils pay the social money for them. The Middle East plays a big role for the Arabs, it goes into the second and third generation. A child of 10 gets pictures on the internet of Americans in Iraq, mosques burnt down, prisoners. They say, why am I here? As a young Muslim? The internet can do big damage."

Safiyeh M, a Dutch Moroccan divorcee with two children, says there is "one little group that won't adapt. It's always 'damn Dutch, damn Jews, damn infidels'. They can't do anything in Morocco. They'd get squashed. So they try it here". She carefully checks the websites that her 14-year-old son looks at. "I panicked when I found he'd been on a site that Mohammed B used," she says. "Fortunately it was a big entry portal and he was just using it to talk to friends in Morocco." Like many in the second generation, she thinks that new arrivals are keeping tensions high. "All these 150 nationalities in Amsterdam," she says. "It's ridiculous. There are too many immigrants."

The media comes in for blame. "They only pick out the things they want, like the man with four wives," says Imam Jatala, at a Pakistani mosque in Rotterdam. "You can have four girlfriends here, but not wives. Prejudice is the biggest problem. A Christian says something about homosexuals, and that's okay. It's only wrong when Muslims say it."

The debate can be highly sensitive. Ethnic minorities account for 40% of social-security recipients, with a rate six times higher than for the native Dutch. They have a high unemployment rate, and they make up a large majority of the prison population. This is seen as undermining the accepted wisdom that immigrants are vital to the economy.

It includes marriage patterns. Three-quarters of young Muslims, including those who are Dutch born, marry a partner from their country of origin. "It's often a cash transaction," Wilders claims. "Two-thirds of them divorce after three years — the minimum period for the spouse to get the right of residence."

This, and family reunification, means that numbers are constantly increasing, some complain, because the marriage pool extends abroad. Neither Turks nor Moroccans arrive with any understanding of Dutch. This means that the second generation problem — since one parent continues to be a newcomer — is made semi-permanent, compounding the problems of integration.

There is criticism that the Dutch remain liberal where it suits them — society permits euthanasia, same-sex marriage, the use of recreational drugs, prostitution, adoption by homosexual couples — and that it is post-PC only on immigration. Draconian solutions — preventive arrest, deportation where possible — are bandied about for radical Islamists.

"We have been tolerant to the nontolerant, and we got intolerance back," Wilders says. If the law, EU or Dutch, inhibits security, the law must be changed. "I'm a law-maker as an MP," he says. "I accept nothing that stands against us winning. If necessary, we should change the constitution and European treaties."

Hirsi Ali is unrepentant on the cultural gap.

"I take back nothing," she said on a brief return from hiding to parliament. "The essentials of Islam are not compatible with liberal democracy. In the Koran and the Hadith, it says that woman is below man, that nonbelievers have to die, and that people who renounce Islam have to die immediately." She was scathing with suggestions that her stridency was to blame for the threats. "Moderate politicians like Cohen and Aboutaleb are on the Islamists' death lists," she said. "It doesn't matter what tone you take."

All agree, however, in the new climate in Holland, that open debate is essential. "Hiding is not a good strategy," Aboutaleb says. Traida puts it more bluntly: "I say — say it, now, before the explosion."

Attitudes have hardened elsewhere in Europe. In Germany, Edmund Stoiber, the Bavarian prime minister, has said that there was no place for "preachers of hate" and oppressors of women. Immigrants must accept German values. "To those who don't accept this," he added, "all we can say is, 'You picked the wrong country.'" Traditional small "l" liberals have changed. Helmut Schmidt, the highly regarded former chancellor, has even said that the decision to invite guest workers to Germany in the 1960s was a mistake. German TV has broadcast a secret recording of an imam in a German mosque telling his worshippers that Germans would "burn in hell" because they are unbelievers.

In France, which has 5m Muslims, the highest number in Europe, the government has changed laws that inhibit its policy of zero tolerance to radical Islam. When the courts overturned a decision to expel an Algerian cleric who had preached the stoning of women, the law was amended and he was on the next aircraft out.

Denmark introduced new citizenship rules last year. These delay refugees' eligibility for permanent residence permits from three years to seven years. Spouses who come from abroad are deported if they divorce within seven years. The pair must also be judged to have ties with Denmark exceeding those to any other country.

These changes can have a direct effect on other countries, Britain included. When the Danes cut back hard on immigrants and asylum seekers — the number of asylum seekers fell from 14,347 in 1993 to 3,500 in 2003 — "pass the parcel" complaints came from Sweden and Norway. Somalis, for example, who say they feel bullied by the Dutch "forced assimilation" policy, have been leaving Rotterdam and Tilburg in numbers and resettling in Leicester and Birmingham.

In Britain, immigration policy is a mess. That, at least, is how the public sees it. In a poll this month, 77% disagreed that the government had the situation under control, 75% said there were too many immigrants, and 74% did not think the government was "open and honest". It is not surprising that there is confusion.

One headline this month said that Tony Blair was "to set tough new tests for migrants"; a week later, Charles Clarke, the home secretary, said that "we want more migration, more people coming to study, to work, to look for refuge".

Public cynicism on figures seems well founded. The Home Office puts the number of Somali "principal applicants" at 18,050 in the three years to 2003, making them the largest national group applying for asylum. The figure applies to the individual making the application, usually the head of the family.

It gives little indication of the real numbers of Somalis entering Britain.

Not giving totals and age groups breeds speculation. If the average Somali woman has 6.9 children, and the British 1.66, which they do, does that not mean that the wives of the 18,000 applicants will produce 124,000 children? And if gross domestic product per capita in Somalia is $500 (Å265), and in Britain $27,700 (Å14,700), which they are, isn't the whole of Somalia going to arrive at Dover? Neither scenario is remotely likely, but lack of openness makes for dark interpretations.

And what of the EU? "Migration has to be managed at a European level," Aboutaleb says. "But there is no common sense on asylum or illegals," he adds. Because EU passports are recognised throughout the union, the action of one country in accepting — or refusing — migrants affects others.

Aboutaleb cites Spain as an example. In 2000, it had an amnesty of 250,000 sin papeles (illegals). This month, at a time of increasing controls elsewhere, it announced another amnesty. "Spain has perhaps a million illegals, in agriculture and construction," Aboutaleb says. "The moment they get an EU passport, they can move all over Europe."

Fears that other countries would be affected have been confirmed. Within a few days, 10,000 illegals from other countries who hoped to benefit from the amnesty, many with false papers showing Spanish addresses, were turned back by Spanish border police.

EU unity stoops to farce at Oresund, where post-PC Denmark faces still-PC Sweden across a "love bridge". Couples who do not meet Denmark's strict residence requirements live in Sweden, and cross the bridge each day to work and catch up with friends. And where the British government claims its hands are tied by laws and treaties, Bertel Haarder, the Danish minister for refugees, immigrants and integration, says his government is on track to drastically limit the number of immigrants "without having infringed upon international conventions".

Yet the EU pursues its own agenda. Vladimir Spidla, the labour and social affairs commissioner in Brussels, claimed this month that rising age levels mean that Europe "needs to accept large numbers of economic migrants. Naturally, if you only look at the next two weeks, things look different. But in the EU we have to work on the long term and we definitely need immigration".

That may make him at one with Charles Clarke. But it puts him at loggerheads with large numbers of Germans, Dutch, Danes, French, and, according to this month's opinion poll, British.

Opacity is an EU hallmark. Its Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia commissioned a report to analyse who was behind a wave of anti-Semitic attacks in 2002. When it found that most of the perpetrators were young Muslims of Arab descent, and "were only seldom from the extreme-right milieu",  its methodology was questioned and it was shelved. Not much stomach for debate there.

The Dutch may be drawing the wrong conclusions, but they are surely right to be asking the questions. Western Europe is undergoing the largest population shift since the 7th and 8th centuries. This is happening just as the advent of a federal Europe, and the decline of traditional faith, are already straining its old identity.

Is the EU part of the problem, or should it impose a solution? Some say that it is undermining the validity of the nation state, without creating a coherent alternative. The EU is fine for the elimination of customs barriers, but can it cope with more? "Europe has no cultural or political identity," argues Shmuel Trigano, a professor at the University of Paris-Nanterre. "Nor does it have common values.

Its capital in Brussels is only an administrative and bureaucratic centre." The crisis in European identity, he has written, is likely to have "unforeseen and profound consequences".

Confusion abounds on issues with historic implications. The European Commission recently recommended that talks for Turkish membership of the EU should go ahead. Yet Valery Giscard d'Estaing, the chief architect of the proposed EU constitution, opposed this on the precise grounds that it was "incompatible with European culture, which is Christian".

Or was Christian. Europeans have largely opted out of Christendom at the time of both a new federalism and a Muslim challenge. The number of French who say they attend church regularly has shrunk to 7.7%. Though 90% of Italians call themselves Catholic, fewer than 30% go to Mass. In Spain, only 14% of young Spaniards are churchgoers, a 50% decline in less than four years. Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, Archbishop of Westminster, has said that Christianity in Britain is "almost vanquished".

Cardinal Adrianis Simonis of Utrecht believes that the "spiritual vacuity" of Dutch society has left the Netherlands open to an Islamic cultural takeover. "Today we have discovered that we are disarmed in the face of the Islamic danger," he said recently. He linked this to "the spectacle of extreme moral decadence and spiritual decline" that Europe offered to young people.

"Political leaders ask whether the Muslims will accept our values," he said. "I ask, 'What values are those? Gay marriage? Euthanasia?'" The cardinal said that the time when Christians "would fight and die for their faith" were long past, but he hoped "tragic acts" like the van Gogh murder "will force us to recover our identity".

The Vatican has spoken of an "inquisition" taking place against religiosity in Europe. In Spain, José Zapatero's socialist party is engaged in a running battle with the Church. He has made religious education optional, and eased divorce laws, and loosened limits on abortion. A law allowing same-sex marriages and adoptions by gay parents is scheduled to be passed this spring.

The Pope has accused the Spanish government of promoting "scorn and ignorance" towards religion, and added that its "permissive morality" would damage the "imprint of Catholic faith in Spanish culture and restrict religious liberty". There is an irony to this. Zapatero owed much of his unexpected poll victory to the Moroccan bombers who killed 190 people on Madrid trains last March. Electors rounded on the Conservative government for mishandling the atrocity.

The bombers claimed their handiwork was revenge, not only for Spanish troops in Iraq, but also for the loss of Al-Andalus (Andalusia) five centuries ago. Zapatero duly withdrew the troops, and granted privileges to Spain's new mosques.

Is Europe giving way to blackmail? The question was raised in Germany last month by an article in Die Welt, the country's most heavyweight paper, by Mathias Dúpfner, head of the big Axel Springer publishing group. He titled it Europe — Thy Name Is Cowardice. He said that a crusade is under way "by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open western societies" that is set upon the "utter destruction" of western civilisation. This enemy, he said, was spurred on by "tolerance" and "accommodation", which were taken as signs of weakness. Europe's supine response, he said, was on a par with the appeasement of Hitler.

[iNeo 0]

Quote[/b] ]dfsdaf

Crap, I finished the first page and then I realized there is another five pages. It was interesting but I couldn't be arsed to do more than skim through the last five pages.

Quote[/b] ]Although the slump that followed the 1973 oil shock removed the urgent need to recruit labour, the Dutch accepted that the "guest workers" in the country could remain. The policy was to create a multicultural society in which cultural and ethnic differences were accepted and appreciated.

The question is why the hell? What good could possibly come out of that. Obviously nothing, as we can see now.

Quote[/b] ]Political correctness, of the sort that produced Harry Enfield's famously relaxed Amsterdam policemen, reigned. Issues felt at street level — immigration, crime, culture, national identity — were seldom discussed by the political elite.

A lot of that which describes how Holland was earlier reminds how Sweden is now. The tolerance, high immigration quota, the political correctness, the hushing of discussions of immigration etc. As the articles states - EU unity stoops to farce at Oresund, where post-PC Denmark faces still-PC Sweden across a "love bridge". Criticism of immigration labells you as a racist or Nazi. I hope the Swedes eventually decide to do something about the problem rather than leave...

[iNeo 0]

Whos "We"?

Native Europeans in respective country, the situation is the same or almost the same in many European countries as in Holland.

[theavonlady 2]

Apparently, government reps living in prisons and bases and watched by bodyguards is no longer unique to Holland.

The original article is chock full of hotlinks - too many for me to update here.

Quote[/b] ]Pro-Israeli Politician Gets Death Threats

Member of Parliament for the rightwing Progress Party, Ulf Erik Knudsen, was accompanied by a bodyguard during a debate arranged by the Immigration Council in the town of Drammen outside Oslo this week. The debate was about whether or not Islam could function as a bridge with Christianity:

He is an internationally certified bodyguard, hired by the party, Knudsen confirms. According to him, both the police and the security services at Parliament have been informed, since MPs for the Progress Party have received a marked increase in the number of death threats recently. Knudsen claims the threats are aggressive, but not specific in nature, saying that â€the next time somebody from the Progress Party takes part in a debate about immigration, the person will be taken care of foreverâ€. – I don’t know for how long I will employ a bodyguard, but it is clear that the security precautions during this fall’s parliamentary elections will be extensive. Usually, it is primarily party leader Carl I. Hagen who gets special protection, but this may now change. Knudsen in particular is exposed to these kinds of threats for other reasons: - I have on many different occasions voiced my support for Israel in the conflict with the Palestinians. Last year this lead to a number of serious threats against my person.

Drammen has one of the highest percentages of Muslim immigrants of any Norwegian city, but being harassed for suspected pro-Israeli opinions isn’t a problem unique to Drammen. A municipally employed teacher in Kristiansand was prevented from wearing a Star of David around his neck. Kristiansand Adult Education Center, where the man works, ruled that the Jewish symbol could be deemed a provocation towards the many Muslim students at the school.

Lise Christoffersen from the Labor Party denounces what she claims is a â€nasty PR-stuntâ€:

I am sorry to see the Progress Party making a circus out of this instead of debating a serious issue. Maybe the next thing that happens now is that party leader Carl I. Hagen cries his crocodile tears to strengthen the image of the innocent and persecuted PP and the dangerous and aggressive immigrants. Christoffersen doubts whether the threats were genuine. – Who would want to seek out a place where there is a risk of an attack of any kind? Knudsen was even standing up instead of sitting, and thus making himself more vulnerable to potential attackers. Who would do such a thing if they were really threatened?

As a fellow Norwegian blogger comments, Christoffersen seems totally oblivious to the possibility that somebody might actually choose to stand up to threats and exercise their right to freedom of speech despite intimidation. The idea that the death threats may be real is not implausible. Militant Islamists like Mullah Krekar do reside in Norway. Besides, Norwegian police have already issued a mobile security alarm to Progress Party leader Carl I Hagen. They worry that he's a target for terrorists unhappy with some anti-Islamic remarks he made last summer. Hagen criticized Islam, and could see no similarity with the concept of moral and justice found in Christianity. Hagen also said that if Israel loses in the Middle East, Europe will succumb to Islam next, if Islamic fundamentalists have it their way. Christians should support Israel and oppose Islamic inroads into Europe. Members of Kristiansand Progress Party claimed that the Koran is similar to Hitler’s «Mein Kampf», and wanted Islam banned in Norway, but this did not get the support of more central party members.

Muslims in Norway reacted strongly to Hagen’s remarks, saying his statements “breaches UN’s human rights and the Geneva convention.â€. Some launched a campaign to gain support for a stricter blasphemy paragraph. In an unprecedented step, a group of Muslim ambassadors to Norway blasted Carl I Hagen in a letter to newspaper Aftenposten, claiming he had offended 1.3 billion Muslims around the world. Pakistan’s ambassador in particular has interfered in unacceptable ways in Norwegian internal affairs before, trying to instruct and intimidate a Norwegian politician of Pakistani origin who dared to voice her support for banning Islamic veils from Norwegian schools:

A member of Oslo's City Council who was born in Pakistan but now holds Norwegian citizenship has twice been called to Pakistan's local embassy. Both times, Pakistan's ambassador to Norway questioned her political standpoints, and now Norway's foreign minister Jan Petersen has been told that she felt pressured. An embassy has nothing to do with what a politician on Oslo's City Council may believe." The calls from Pakistan's embassy came after Munir became the first known Muslim woman in Norway to support a proposed ban on the use of head scarves and other religious symbols for youth. She then became a target of criticism within the local Pakistani community. Newspaper Aftenposten Aften understands that Pakistan's ambassador, Shahbaz Shahbaz, noted in his second meeting with Munir that she still has family in Pakistan.

Leading Muslims in Norway have also defended suicide bombings, invited pro-Taliban and bin Laden politicians to the country, voiced "understanding" towards the murder of Dutch Islam critic Theo van Gogh and recommended polygamy, although this is against Norwegian law. Hagen was ridiculed by many for his remarks that he fears an Islamic party in Norway, although Denmark already has a problem with Muslim politicians who support sharia. Could it be that some of the Leftist multiculturalists are naÄve, not that Mr. Hagen is racist and xenophobic? Perhaps we could learn something from our neighbors. A conference in Copenhagen, Denmark, recently about freedom of speech and research and the right to question religious truths took place under heavy police protection, as a Jewish teacher was attacked last year for reading from the Koran. The perpetrators, who looked like Arabs, remain at large. Moderate Muslims in Denmark experience harassment and death threats for their views. MP Naser Khader, born in Syria, has become a well-known pundit and unapologetic critic of some aspects of Islam:

"I know several people who've gotten involved in the debate and subsequently pulled out of it altogether. One woman called me, quite shaken, and said she'd been threatened. Maybe the rest of us are tougher, but the fact remains that freedom of speech is the breath of democracy - and if you take that away, then democracy dies," said Khader.

“If you take away free speech, democracy dies†says Khader. Too bad the Scandinavian political elite don’t understand this. As Helle Klein, political editor of Sweden's largest newspaper Aftonbladet, boasts: "If the debate is going to be about whether there are problems with immigrants, we don't want it". Welcome to Sweden, the country where the media don’t even pretend to champion freedom of speech, but openly brag about censorship. Klein gets support from leading Social Democrat and senior member of Cabinet Mona Sahlin:

A concerted effort that aims at educating Swedes that immigrants are a blessing to their country must be pursued, said Sahlin, stressing that her compatriots must accept that the new Sweden is multi-cultural, and that discrimination must end. "Like it or not, this is the new Sweden," she said.

Yes, this is the new Sweden. Never mind the rapes or the sharia or the museums that get death threats for showing art Muslims don't like. Just smile and think happy thoughts about cultural diversity. Is freedom of speech lost in Eurabian Scandinavia? Well, that depends. If you are a member of the Leftist – Islamic alliance, you won’t get death threats for subsidizing Palestinian terror conferences or giving support and raising funds for the Iraqi "resistance movement". Just don’t sell bathing shoes that insult Allah, or we may have to kill you.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Yes, this is the new Sweden. Never mind the rapes or the sharia or the museums that get death threats for showing art Muslims don't like. Just smile and think happy thoughts about cultural diversity. Is freedom of speech lost in Eurabian Scandinavia? Well, that depends. If you are a member of the Leftist – Islamic alliance, you won’t get death threats for subsidizing Palestinian terror conferences or giving support and raising funds for the Iraqi "resistance movement". Just don’t sell bathing shoes that insult Allah, or we may have to kill you.

Last time I heard about museums getting death threats, it was by Jewish groups. And the last time a museum was actually attacked was by the Israeli ambassador...

Anyway Avon, do you have anything else to come with but blogs? Otherwise, I'll just let you and iNeo continue your arab/muslim/whatever bashing. Mind you, I don't think he likes Jews too much too though. Pity, you seem to think so alike. I'm afraid however that his hostility to foreigners  extends to everbody that isn't Swedish (or Scandinavian if he is in a tolerant mood).

Oh well, you might work together on the common grounds you have (Just stay out of Sweden which is obviously just for the Swedes, and I think you'll get along just fine)  and build an anti-muslim fifth reich. That will show those liberal tolerant mulicultured swine socialist homosexuals.

[iNeo 0]

Anyway Avon, do you have anything else to come with but blogs?

As she said, it's got tons of links refering to articles, so I don't see why that blog wouldn't be any good.

Quote[/b] ]Mind you, I don't think he likes Jews too much too though. Pity, you seem to think so alike. I'm afraid however that his hostility to foreigners extends to everbody that isn't Swedish (or Scandinavian if he is in a tolerant mood).

Don't speak for me, idiot. You like to call me narrow-minded and Nazi but in fact you're the one who's narrow-minded because you think everyone who's against multi-culture is a Nazi. I'm a nationalist, not a Nazi. I don't mind other peoples, or nations, AT ALL as long as we stay out of multi-culture.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Oi, calm down you lot.

[denoir 0]

I'm a nationalist, not a Nazi.

You are a clueless little boy. In the best case you'll grow up and learn how the world works and what kind of nonsense you have been talking. My bet is though that you'll grow up to be a lower-class loser with no individual accomplishments of your own to be proud of and use your "nationalism" as motivation for your existance.

I do feel sorry for you, but you have nothing to worry. Even if you are useless deadwood to society I fully support your right to exist. I won't try to get you euthanized because you are a loser. You don't need to take refuge in your nationality, you being a human is enough.

Quote[/b] ]You like to call me narrow-minded and Nazi but in fact you're the one who's narrow-minded because you think everyone who's against multi-culture is a Nazi.

No, I think that everybody that is against mulit-culture is a clueless idiot that hasn't got any connection to realty. If it wasn't for the blending of cultures we'd be in the stone age today. Not even the most fundamentalist states as for instance Iran are mono-cultural. There are a few stone-age tribes in remote locations around the world that have kept their original culture more or less intact, but that's basically it. And I doubt that you are really advocating for Sweden to go back to the stone age. The mixing of cultures is the cornerstone of civilization.

Quote[/b] ]I don't mind other peoples, or nations, AT ALL as long as we stay out of multi-culture.

And that's fairly equal to the policy of the Nazis. They didn't mind Jews elsewhere in the world, they just wanted to get rid of them from Germany and from Europe. Their "final solution" was not the complete extermination of the Jewish people, but the full removal of them (one way or another) from Europe. They wanted Europe to be a germanic entity, the rest they didn't care about. They were not against any nation per se, but they were against other cultures being part of their society. I.e they were working against a multi-cultural Europe.

This can be contrasted with for instance America. They have always been a truly multi-cultural society. They have had overt racism, slavery etc, but never any problems of multi-culturalism. And that largely accounts for its successes in the past 200 years.

Multiculturalism is a necssity if you don't want to go back to the stone age. There is of course a relevant discussion of how it should be organized and handled in the society, but the choice between multi-culturalism and mono-culturalism is no choice.