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Quote[/b] ]And when has an immigrated girl been raped?

Did it occur to you, that it simply dosent make the news or that many rapes are not reported, espically in non-western cultures?  Most newspapers pick up on rapes /murders of girls when their pretty or attacked by foreigners.

Admittedley im using my own country as a guide here, but with a few(and I stress few) exceptions if you go buy the media, you could quite easily believe that only child molestation and abduction only happens to white children, this is not the case at all.

Aside from that, considering women and children from impoverished parts of the world are forced into the sex trade by people smugglers at an increasing rate, I would have to say, fairly often.

Very good points!

One should also consider that most violence in fact does not occur in the public sphere but in the private sphere. This also includes rape! This is mostly done by family or close friends wich in turn is the very reason why in most cases no one reports it to the authoroties because of shame etc.

Another interesting point is that the latter part of the nineties saw the norwegian broadcasting channel TV2 "promoting" the so called "wave of violence" perpetrated by our so called "new norwegians" .

Funny thing is that afterwards both TV2 and the police had to admit they were wrong when the police presented their statistics. The violence commited in public places was declining. That included crimes committed by non ethnic norwegians. What wasn't commented was that the violence and crimes committed in the private sphere committed by so called norwegians was rising strongly! Including rapes!

Unfortunately, even though the statistics proved the prejudices to be wrong it had very little effect - simply because people want to believe what they feel most comfortable with - their bloody stereotypes!

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Quote[/b] ]And when has an immigrated girl been raped?

Did it occur to you, that it simply dosent make the news or that many rapes are not reported, espically in non-western cultures? Most newspapers pick up on rapes /murders of girls when their pretty or attacked by foreigners.

I live in a western culture (was talking about the situation over here).

And here the papers certainly don't choose not to publish news about rapes depending on the ethnicity of the vicitim, it's more likely that an immigrated girl getting raped would get more attention because it's so rare. And it's certainly not a question if the girl is pretty or not. And since they don't mention ethnicity, it doesn't matter to them what ethnicity the rapists had.

Quote[/b] ]The statement "most rapes in x country are committed by immigrants) is not in itself racist. Reversing the statement makes it so.

What do you mean reversing, like "most immigrants are rapists?" If it was the truth it wouldn't be racist.

Quote[/b] ]On other hand, you could argue, what exactly is the value of informing people that a particular crime is most likley perpetrated by a particular demographic group? Mentioning the ethnicity of a suspect is one thing, smearing a group is another.

It's not about smearing, mentioning ethnicity serves two purposes IMO:

- help identify the criminal in particular cases

- inform the people of the problems, and then it's up to the individual to form his own opinion. Truth prevents prejudices, right?

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Quote[/b] ]I live in a western culture (was talking about the situation over here).

Read my previous post and reply please - unless you'r still in the "fuck you" mood!

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unless you'r still in the "fuck you" mood!

Are you still in the "fuck Sweden" mood?

Quote[/b] ]One should also consider that most violence in fact does not occur in the public sphere but in the private sphere. This also includes rape! This is mostly done by family or close friends wich in turn is the very reason why in most cases no one reports it to the authoroties because of shame etc.

I don't know exactly what you're trying to say - that only immigrated girls are raped at home and that that number is larger than the ones that are raped outdoors? That only immigrated girls don't report the rape? False, false, false.

Yes in many cases the rapist knows the girl. But that doesn't change the fact that immigrants are heavily overrepresented amongst rapists and that native girls are heavily overrepresented as victims of rape.

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Quote[/b] ]Are you still in the "fuck Sweden" mood?

Never was really, but let's forget about it?

Quote[/b] ]I don't know exactly what you're trying to say - that only immigrated girls are raped at home and that that number is larger than the ones that are raped outdoors? That only immigrated girls don't report the rape? False, false, false.

Yes in many cases the rapist knows the girl. But that doesn't change the fact that immigrants are heavily overrepresented amongst rapists and that native girls are heavily overrepresented as victims of rape.

No, my points are as follows:

1. Because most rapes occur within the private sphere the statistics on rape in general will be highly suspect at best.

Most husbands, uncles, close friends are never reported to the police because of shame and guilt.

2. Most rapes that are reported involves ethnic norwegians both as victims and offenders.

3. Although there is a comparatively high representation of non-ethnic norwegians in rapes taking place in public places - they are not overrepresented in the total picture. Quite the contrary in fact.

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Quote[/b] ]The statement "most rapes in x country are committed by immigrants) is not in itself racist.  Reversing the statement makes it so.

What do you mean reversing, like "most immigrants are rapists?" If it was the truth it wouldn't be racist.

Quote[/b] ]On other hand, you could argue, what exactly is the value of informing people that a particular crime is most likley perpetrated by a particular demographic group?  Mentioning the ethnicity of a suspect is one thing, smearing a group is another.  

It's not about smearing, mentioning ethnicity serves two purposes IMO:

- help identify the criminal in particular cases

- inform the people of the problems, and then it's up to the individual to form his own opinion. Truth prevents prejudices, right?

Yeah, but the statement "most immigrants are rapists" isnt true, making it a racist statement, the statistics may well support you in saying the majority of x crime is committed by y ethnic group, however that dosent, by definition mean most of that ethnic group are committing that crime.

Aside from that, most sexual assaults are committed by men who have a pre-existing relationship with the victim.

And, as I said, I dont consider describing a particular suspects looks and ethnicity to be reacist.

Quote[/b] ]- inform the people of the problems, and then it's up to the individual to form his own opinion. Truth prevents prejudices, right?

What exactly are people being informed of, unless accompanied by a percentage figure to inform you approximatley how much of that particular group is committing a crime, or where these crimes are occuring, what are they supposed to do with the information, other than form a prejudice against that group as a whole.

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Does anyone know much about this guy - John Laughland?  I read an editorial he wrote for the guardian last week about the Ukranian opposition - he accused them of being anti-semitic amongst other things, and someone else may have mentioned him on this forum, he was criticizing the groups who have organised against the incumbent. :

Quote[/b] ]PR man to Europe's nastiest regimes

David Aaronovitch

Tuesday November 30, 2004

The Guardian

Whenever, as this past week, eastern Europe is on the news, so too is a man called John Laughland. Last Sunday he was playing Ukrainian expert on the BBC's The World This Weekend, the day before he was here in the Guardian defending the Ukrainian election "result", and at the beginning of the month he was writing for the Spectator - also on Ukraine.

Laughland's great strength is that he sees what no one else in the west seems to. Where reporters in Kiev, including the Guardian's own Nick Paton-Walsh, encounter a genuine democracy movement, Laughland comes across "neo-Nazis" (Guardian), or "druggy skinheads from Lvov" (Spectator). And where most observers report serious and specific instances of electoral fraud and malpractice on the part of the supporters of the current prime minister, Laughland complains only of a systematic bias against (the presumably innocent) Mr Yanukovich.

A quick trawl establishes this to be the Laughland pattern over the past few years and concerning several countries. Laughland has variously queried the idea that human rights are a problem in Belarus, or that the Serbs behaved so very savagely in Kosovo. He has defended Slobodan Milosevic, criticised the International Tribunal in the Hague and generally argued that the problem in countries normally associated with human rights abuses is, in fact, the intervention of western agencies.

It was the British Helsinki Human Rights Group hat that he was wearing last Sunday. On its website the BHHRG - of which Laughland is a trustee - describes itself as a non-governmental organisation which monitors human rights in the 57 member states of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe. Laughland is listed as a trustee, the historian Mark Almond (to be found writing about the Ukraine in last week's New Statesman) is its chairman.

Founded in 1992, the BHHRG sends observers to elections and writes reports which - along Laughlandish lines - almost invariably dispute the accounts given by better known human rights organisations. This stance has led to the BHHRG being criticised by the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights (established in 1976) as preferring "the role [is to take] PR flak for a new breed of authoritarian rulers in Europe" to the business of actually monitoring abuses.

So what on earth is going on here? I know nothing about BHHRG's finances, but the ideological trail is fascinating. Take the co-founder of the group, Christine Stone. She was a lawyer before she helped set up BHHRG. Since then she has "written for a number of publications including the Spectator and Wall Street Journal on eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union".

This information comes from a US website called Antiwar.com where, for a while, Stone had a regular Thursday column. But Antiwar.com was not a leftwing site opposing the Iraq war. It was a rightwing site set up to oppose the Kosovo intervention in 1999. Its "editorial director" was a man called Justin Raimondo who was active in the small US Libertarian party before joining the Republican party. In the 1992, 1996 and 2000 elections he supported the campaigns of Pat Buchanan, the far-right isolationist candidate.

Raimondo is also an "adjunct scholar" with the Ludwig von Mises Institute. This is a libertarian think-tank in Auburn, Alabama, founded by one Lew Rockwell, who describes himself as "an opponent of the central state, its wars and its socialism". A contributor to Rockwell's own site is Daniel McAdams, who is - in his own words "honoured to be associated" with the British Helsinki Human Rights Group.

Trail 2. Laughland is also European Director of the European Foundation (patron, Mrs M Thatcher), which - judging by its website - seems to spend most of its time and energy sending out pamphlets by arch-Europhobe Bill Cash. A synopsis of one of Laughland's own books, however, notes his argument that, "Post-national structures ... and supranational organisations such as the European Union - are ... corrosive of liberal values (and) the author shows the ideology as a crucial core of Nazi economic and political thinking."

Beginning to get the picture now? Trail 3 leads us to Sanders Research Associates, a "risk consultancy" for which Laughland is, according to their website, "a regular contributor" and to which companies can subscribe for information and advice. The "principal" is a Chris Sanders. The kind of steer Sanders gives his customers can be adduced from this report on the morning of the US presidential election. "We will be very surprised," he wrote, "if on Wednesday John Kerry has not won a clear majority of electoral college votes and that his supporters are not nursing substantial post vote celebration hangovers, if not still drinking the champagne."

Lots of people got that one wrong, and some blamed their own judgment. Not Sanders. "Our bet," he says following the results, "is that we will soon be adding an investigation into the biggest vote fraud in history.'"

Sanders, it seems, is not beyond the odd bit of conspiracising. In a bulletin from June 2002 he also has something to suggest about the Twin Towers atrocity. "It was obvious then, and it is obvious now," he writes, "that something besides the brilliance of a band of terrorists or the incompetence of America's security apparatus was responsible for the disaster of 9/11." But he doesn't tell us what that "something" was.

Sanders on America and Laughland on Ukraine, however, are not the most amazing features of Sanders Research Associates. That distinction belongs to the report on Rwanda written for Sanders by a Canadian lawyer named Chris Black. Black is the only person I have ever seen putting the word genocide in quotation marks when applied to Rwanda. Rwanda, you see, was all the US's fault, and wasn't carried out by Hutus in any case. It was all got up to justify US intervention in the region. He condemns the "demonising (of) the Hutu leadership".

Since 2000 Black has been the lead counsel representing General Augustin Ndindiliyimana, chief of staff of the Rwandan gendarmerie, at the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. He is also chair of the legal committee for the international committee for the defence of Slobodan Milosevic. Last year (though not for Sanders) Black went on a delegation to North Korea. The report he wrote on his return is full of references to happy peasants, committed soldiers and delightful guides. The North Korean system, he suggested, being "participatory", was in many ways more democratic than parliamentary systems in the west.

This is weird company. And what we seem to have in Laughland and his associates is a group of right-wing anti-state libertarians and isolationists, suspicious of any foreign entanglements, who have somehow morphed into apologists for the worst regimes and most appalling dictators on the planet.

And where does it all end up? A couple of weeks ago Sanders commended to his clients "John Laughland's series of articles [showing that] the attack on Iraq is just the southern offensive of a larger campaign to tighten the noose on Russia." And he continued, "What is less well understood are the risks that the unravelling political compact in Israel poses for the United States and Great Britain, whose political processes, intelligence services, military, media and financial establishments are so thoroughly enmeshed with Israel's."

Read that last sentence again and then ask yourself: in what way are Britain's media and financial interests "thoroughly enmeshed" with Israel's?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1362333,00.html

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lol, you almost had me, I was about to post

"wheres he from, I thought he was probably English."

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So what we are seeing in Sweden, are lots of immigrants, with Swedish university degrees working in places which don't even require a high-school education! Granted, that is the case for many "Swedes" aswell.

Well it's the same in Canada, espcecially if you got yourself a HI-tech education. Anyway, thought I'd throw that one in.

I'll tell you this; it is not necessairly discrimination per say about immigrants being worse off, considering that most companies try to hire people they know and like on personal levels (if possible), you can see how immigrants tend to have less ofa chance of being in that group. It is always nice and fluffy to hire someone born in the same country as you, as you think more alike most of the time.

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No, my points are as follows:

1. Because most rapes occur within the private sphere the statistics on rape in general will be highly suspect at best.

That means the reported number is lower than the actual number, not that the porportions are different - it doesn't mean that there are more immigrated girls as victims, relatively.

Quote[/b] ]2. Most rapes that are reported involves ethnic norwegians both as victims and offenders.

3. Although there is a comparatively high representation of non-ethnic norwegians in rapes taking place in public places - they are not overrepresented in the total picture. Quite the contrary in fact.

Over here the immigrants are about 4 times overrepresented when it comes to rapes:

Quote[/b] ]Den brottstyp där överrepresentationen är som störst är vĺldtäkter, där närmare 40 procent av gärningsmännen är invandrare. [...] Samma förhĺllande gäller även vid personrĺn, en annan brottstyp där invandrarandelen är högre än genomsnittet (uppemot 30 procent).

Above quotation is from the report denoir posted on page 8. Of rapes in Sweden, 40% of the rapists are immigrants, and of street robbings, 30% of the robbers are immigrants. There are 10-11% immigrants in Sweden, or more depending on how you define immigrant.

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Quote[/b] ]The statement "most rapes in x country are committed by immigrants) is not in itself racist. Reversing the statement makes it so.

What do you mean reversing, like "most immigrants are rapists?" If it was the truth it wouldn't be racist.

Quote[/b] ]On other hand, you could argue, what exactly is the value of informing people that a particular crime is most likley perpetrated by a particular demographic group? Mentioning the ethnicity of a suspect is one thing, smearing a group is another.

It's not about smearing, mentioning ethnicity serves two purposes IMO:

- help identify the criminal in particular cases

- inform the people of the problems, and then it's up to the individual to form his own opinion. Truth prevents prejudices, right?

Yeah, but the statement "most immigrants are rapists" isnt true, making it a racist statement, the statistics may well support you in saying the majority of x crime is committed by y ethnic group, however that dosent, by definition mean most of that ethnic group are committing that crime.

Yep well I didn't mean it was true. So we agree there.

Quote[/b] ]What exactly are people being informed of, unless accompanied by a percentage figure to inform you approximatley how much of that particular group is committing a crime, or where these crimes are occuring, what are they supposed to do with the information, other than form a prejudice against that group as a whole.

If it would often make the news that someone of ethnic group x has commited a particular crime, it would show the truth, and perhaps eliminate a possible prejudice that ethnic group y is more often behind that crime? If you get the idea.

Quote[/b] ]Aside from that, most sexual assaults are committed by men who have a pre-existing relationship with the victim.

See my reply to brgnorway.

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If it would often make the news that someone of ethnic group x has commited a particular crime, it would show the truth, and perhaps eliminate a possible prejudice that ethnic group y is more often behind that crime? If you get the idea.

In what way is that a good thing?

It's hardly good thing for the media to be spreading prejudice towards ethnic group x, so that prejudice against ethnic group y will lessen. And how well would Swedish tabloids like Aftonbladet/Expressen handle that?

You have heard of the very bold news bill that Expressen had running for one day in conjunction with the Lasermannen shootings/"Immigrant strike" in the nineties have you not? What good did the media do during those events? By spreading prejudice, and breathing complete and utter bullshit about immigrants, they greatly added to the chaotic Sweden of that time.

Personally, I want media to give me an unskewed image of what happened. What ethnical group the criminal came from, has no relevance to the news story at all.

Prejudice is prejudice, people of every ethnical group commit crimes. Unless the ethniticity of the criminal can lead to a more efficient capture of said criminal, it is irrelevant.

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The high-quality newspapers in the Netherlands have a rather simple rule on this matter: unless the perpetrator's ethnicity is relevant to the story, it is not mentioned. Period.

Simple and effective.

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Quote[/b] ]That means the reported number is lower than the actual number, not that the porportions are different - it doesn't mean that there are more immigrated girls as victims, relatively.

It does indeed suggest the reported number is lower than the actual one - and that you cannot trust any supposed "proportionate" estimates. For all you know there could just as well be a totally different picture whatsoever, meaning ethnic norwegians/swedes rape their next of kins and friends at home versus ethnic others raping people they haven't formed bonds with - in the public sphere. As long as we don't know all your suggestions will be informed by your prejudice! See what I mean?

Quote[/b] ]Over here the immigrants are about 4 times overrepresented when it comes to rapes

But you don't really know do you? All you know is that the women raped in public places might statistically be more often than not raped by an "immigrant" whereas the rapes going on in secluded private spheres are more likely to be raped by ethnic swedes/norwegians.

Concerning the robberies you also forgot to mention what Denoir said about the same known perpetrator responsible for several crimes of the same sort..........meaning the statistical probability for being raped/robbed by an "immigrant" is less than already supposed.

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If it would often make the news that someone of ethnic group x has commited a particular crime, it would show the truth, and perhaps eliminate a possible prejudice that ethnic group y is more often behind that crime? If you get the idea.

In what way is that a good thing?

It'd open up for public debate of racism in all directions, segragation, multi-culture, cultur clashes, ...

Besides, perhaps it'd show Swedes are overrepresented amongst bank robberies, you would love that wouldn't you?

Quote[/b] ]Personally, I want media to give me an unskewed image of what happened.

[...]

Prejudice is prejudice, people of every ethnical group commit crimes.

How does mentioning ethnicity make the image skewed? Maybe they shouldn't mention age and sex either? Where's the difference? People of all ages and both "sexes" commits crimes. Why is age and sex relevant? Possibly interesting? Possibly showing the extent of abuse of women? Possibly showing how younger and younger the criminals get? That's all right, why isn't ethnicity?

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Quote[/b] ]That means the reported number is lower than the actual number, not that the porportions are different - it doesn't mean that there are more immigrated girls as victims, relatively.

It does indeed suggest the reported number is lower than the actual one - and that you cannot trust any supposed "proportionate" estimates. For all you know there could just as well be a totally different picture whatsoever, meaning ethnic norwegians/swedes rape their next of kins and friends at home versus ethnic others raping people they haven't formed bonds with - in the public sphere. As long as we don't know all your suggestions will be informed by your prejudice! See what I mean?

Quote[/b] ]Over here the immigrants are about 4 times overrepresented when it comes to rapes

But you don't really know do you? All you know is that the women raped in public places might statistically be more often than not raped by an "immigrant" whereas the rapes going on in secluded private spheres are more likely to be raped by ethnic swedes/norwegians.

To reason like that would mean that no statistics on any crime is worth anything. How much sense does it make to deny all statistics? Don't you think it has relevance? Don't you think it's a problem that should be dealt with?

Furthermore if it was like you say with rapes in private sphere, I'm quite sure Save the Children / BRIS (Children's rights in society) etc would draw attention to it.

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Quote[/b] ]To reason like that would mean that no statistics on any crime is worth anything.

No not at all! The problem is that certain statistics are far too uncertain to work as a basis of judgements on an ethnic group.

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore if it was like you say with rapes in private sphere, I'm quite sure Save the Children / BRIS (Children's rights in society) etc would draw attention to it.

Believe me they have!

A few (in norwegian) :

Quote[/b] ]Hvert eneste ĺr blir mer enn 10.000 kvinner behandlet av helsevesenet for de fysiske skadene som blir pĺfřrt dem av ektemenn og samboere. I tillegg kommer alle dem som ikke vĺger ĺ oppsřke lege, selv om de har en betydelig skade. Det er all grunn til ĺ tro at mřrketallene her er svćrt hřye. En svensk offentlig utredning viser at mer enn 90 % av alle voldtekter aldri blir anmeldt.

      Jeg har sett pĺ tall fra en finsk omfangsundersřkelse som viser at 40 % av alle voksne finske kvinner har vćrt offer for fysisk eller seksuell vold eller voldstrusler fra menns side etter at de fylte 15 ĺr. 20 % hadde opplevd det i siste ĺr. Videre hadde 52 % av alle voksne finske kvinner vćrt offer for seksuell trakassering. 22 % av alle gifte eller samboende finske kvinner har vćrt offer for fysisk eller seksuell vold eller voldstrusler fra partnerens side.

Karita Bekkemellom Orheim MP for Arbeiderpartiet

Quote[/b] ]– I ĺrene 1994 til 1998 hadde vi i snitt 17 voldtektsanmeldelser i ĺret. Men vi vet jo at det er veldig store mřrketall. Mange oppsřker helsevesenet og sier at de er blitt voldtatt, uten at de tar kontakt med politiet.

No abuse!

Quote[/b] ]4.4 Sedelighetskriminalitet

Generelt om sedelighetskriminalitet

I lřpet av de siste ti ĺrene er antallet anmeldte sedelighetslovbrudd mer enn fordoblet. Anmeldte sedelighetsforhold har hatt en meget stor prosentvis řkning, selv om tallene i kriminalstatistikken er relativt smĺ. De siste fire ĺrene viser en total řkning i antallet anmeldelser pĺ 28,5 %, dette pĺ tross av at antallet anmeldelser det siste ĺret gikk tilbake med 20 % sammenlignet med ĺret fřr. Ĺrsakene til řkning og nedgang i denne statistikken er interessante, men innen denne lovbruddsgruppen er statistikken en hřyst usikker indikator pĺ utviklingen av de faktiske forhold. Mřrketall og feilkilder omkring sedelighetskriminalitet er hřyere enn ved andre typer lovbrudd. Forskning har vist at sedelighetslovbrudd er svćrt underrapportert og at anmeldelser i for eksempel incestsaker ofte kommer lang tid i etterkant av at ugjerningen har funnet sted. Sedelighetskriminalitet er dessuten en sammensatt lovbruddskategori som dekker alt fra voldtekt, utuktig omgang med barn og incest til produksjon og distribusjon av bestemte typer pornografi i ulike fora.

And the best of all - the Norwegian Police

Quote[/b] ]7 av 10 anmelder ikke voldtekt

222 kvinner oppsřkte voldtektsmottaket pĺ Legevakten i Oslo i fjor. Bare 67 har anmeldt forholdet til politiet.

Pĺ Legevakten i Oslo har manen egen avdeling som behandler voldtektsofre og sikrerbevis. Mottaket skal vćre med pĺ ĺ řke oppklaringsprosenteni voldtektssaker fordi det uten en umiddelbarlegeundersřkelse nesten er umulig ĺ fĺ nok bevis tildomfellelse.

Aldri har sĺ mange tatt kontakt medvoldtektsmottaket som i fjor. Ved nyttĺr viste journalen 222navn, mot 206 ĺret fřr og 152 i 1998. Nĺ viser det seg at dealler fleste av dem som oppsřker mottaket, aldri anmelderovergrepet. Av de 222 sakene i fjor, er forelřpig bare 67anmeldt til politiet. Det vil si at 70prosent av sakenealdri etterforskes.

-Det er klart at mange er ien krise nĺr de kommer hit. De kan ha mer enn nok med ĺkomme seg gjennom denne undersřkelsen om de ikke ogsĺ skalforholde seg til politiet, sier overlege Anne Svarstad vedvoldtektsmottaket.

Fem dřmt i fjor

Politiet i Oslo mottok i fjor 126 anmeldelserav voldtekt. Av disse fřrte fćrre enn 10prosent tiltiltale.

Samtidig ble det i fjor avsagt fellende dom ifem voldtektssaker, mot fire ĺret fřr.

-Det erhřyst forskjellig hvordan de som kommer til oss forholderseg til dette. De som utsettes for typiskeoverfallsvoldtekter har nok lettere for ĺ ville anmelde. Jotettere bĺnd de har til overgriperen, desto lengre tid tardet ĺ vurdere om de skal anmelde forholdet, sierSvarstad.

Pĺ voldtektsmottaket forsřker de ĺ informereofrene sĺ langt det er mulig om deres rettigheter. Dettegjelder fřrst og fremst hjelp til ĺ skaffe bistandsadvokat.Kvinnene har ogsĺ krav pĺ voldsoffererstatning, begrensetoppad til én million kroner.

-Vi skulle řnskeflere anmeldte sakene, vi skulle det. Samtidig respekterervi at folk kan ha gode grunner for ikke ĺ ville anmelde, deter deres fulle rett, sier AnneSvarstad.

Aftenposten

And do take time to read this. The author is a lecturer at the Police Academy.

Quote[/b] ]Elisabeth Myhre Lie har en rekke ganger holdt innledning for SOS Rasisme. Hun har bakgrunn blant annet fra Politihřgskolen.

Er innvandrerere mer kriminelle enn nordmenn?

De siste ĺrene har det vćrt et řkt fokus pĺ innvandrere og kriminalitet. Politikere og andre samfunnstopper har hatt et behov for ĺ vise at de třr ĺ ta opp temaet. I frykt for ĺ stemples som naive og "snillistiske" har debattantene til tider overgĺtt hverandre i ĺ foreslĺ kontrolltiltak ovenfor innvandrere. Bekymringen rundt kriminalitetsutviklingen blant innvandrere har ĺpnet for tiltak som ellers ville blitt vurdert som uetiske og umenneskelige. Innvandreres overrepresentasjon nĺr det gjelder visse typer lovbrudd har ensidig blitt forklart ut fra kulturforskjeller og kulturkonflikter. Man har helt sett bort fra vanlige sosiologiske forklaringer som for eksempel levekĺr og utstřting. Kulturforklaringene har ofte fungert diskriminerende fordi de har fremmedgjort innvandrere ved kun ĺ fokusere pĺ kulturforskjellene.

Man har heller ikke vćrt interessert i ĺ fĺ fram et korrekt bilde av pĺ hvilken mĺte innvandrere er overrepresentert og hvordan kriminaliteten fordeles blant innvandrere. Resultatet er blitt at alle innvandrere opplever ĺ bli stigmatisert som kriminelle til tross for at de fćrreste begĺr lovbrudd.

Kulturforklaringer

Det har vćrt en tendens til ĺ bruke kultur som forklaringsmodell pĺ kriminalitet pĺ en mĺte som skaper inntrykk av et direkte ĺrsaksforhold mellom "fremmedkulturell" og kriminell. I en avisartikkel forklarer en KrF politiker den řkte kriminaliteten i samfunnet med at innvandreres voldsatferd og hevntanker smitter over til nordmenn. (ref). Uttalelsen antyder at kriminalitet er en sykdom som innvandrere er infisert av, og som de sprer til nordmenn. Denne type uttalelse viser ikke bare en total mangel pĺ kunnskap, fordi vedkommende ser bort fra at Norge historisk sett har vćrt preget av en svćrt voldelig kultur, feks pĺ bygdene for 400 ĺr siden der slagsmĺl og knivstikking ikke var uvanlig i forbindelse med brylluper (jmf S. Falck + Fanitullen). Mer alvorlig er det likevel at enkelte politikere gjennom denne type uttalelser utrykker et menneskesyn som gĺr pĺ tvers av allmenne verdier som menneskeverd og toleranse.

Kultur kan likevel ikke helt utelukkes som forklaringsmodell nĺr det gjelder innvandrere og kriminalitet, men kultur som forklaring fungerer rasistisk hvis vi kun bruker det for ĺ forklare "dem" og ikke oss (Vikan i Frogner 2003). Det er viktig ĺ vćre klar over at kultur ikke pĺ noen mĺte determinerer individer i ĺ begĺ lovbrudd. Verken kultur alene eller individuelle valg alene kan forklare kriminalitet (Frogner ref).

Befolkningssammensetning

Nĺr man sammenligner ulike gruppers kriminalitet mĺ man sřrge for at de gruppene man sammenligner faktisk kan sammenlignes. En forklaring pĺ at innvandrere har hřyere registrert kriminalitet kan vćre at man har sammenlignet ikke-sammenlignbare grupper. Det har stor betydning nĺr man snakker om innvandrere og kriminalitet at man tar i betraktning at innvandrerbefolkningen har en annen demografisk profil enn resten av befolkningen. Det er ikke tilfeldig hvem som innvandrer til Norge eller hvor i Norge disse bosetter seg. De som kommer til Norge er i hovedsak relativt unge menn, og de bosetter seg i de střrre byene. Sammenlignet med befolkningen ellers, bestĺr innvandrerbefolkningen sĺledes i střrre grad av unge menn bosatt i byene.

Noen av de viktigste sosiale kjennetegnene pĺ de som blir registrert som lovbrytere er at de er unge, at de er menn og at de bor i byene. I 1998 var 83 % av de antatte gjerningspersonene menn. Hovedtyngden var i alderen 21 til 29 ĺr, og av alle antatte gjerningspersoner, hadde 14 % bostedskommune Oslo (Hustad 1999)

Dette betyr at innvandrere i střrre grad enn nordmenn preges av ĺ ha en befolkningssammensetning som ligner lovbryter-befolkningen. Dette gjelder i utpreget grad den ikke-vestlige innvandrerbefolkningen.

Satt pĺ spissen kan man si man risikerer ĺ sammenligne kriminalitetsfrekvensen til unge innvandrermenn i byene, med eldre norske kvinner pĺ landet.

Kriminell diskriminering

Kan det tenkes at innvandrere oftere blir "tatt" enn andre nordmenn?

En mulig ĺrsak til at innvandrere har hřyere registrert kriminalitet kan vćre at de har střrre sannsynlighet for ĺ bli tatt nĺr de begĺr lovbrudd. Ikke-vestlige innvandrere blir oftere lagt merke til i bybildet og andre steder.

Ut fra dette vil det ha stor betydning for den type holdninger som kommer fram nĺr 50% av den voksne befolkning mente at innvandrere var mer kriminelle enn andre nordmenn (Statistisk Sentralbyrĺ 2000). Denne type holdninger vil kunne bety at man er mer pĺ vakt ovenfor synlige innvandrere enn andre. Folk vil kanskje oftere tenke lovbrudd nĺr de er i nćrheten av en innvandrer enn ellers, og man vil derfor lettere oppdage innvandreres lovbrudd oftere enn ellers.

Kan det tenkes at den samme forskjellsbehandlingen mellom innvandrere og befolkningen ellers ogsĺ kan gjelde for politiets kontroll? Kan det i sĺ fall tenkes at innvandrere, og da spesielt ikke-vestlige innvandrere har en annen kontrollhverdag enn befolkningen ellers?

Liv Finstad har i boken Politiblikket (2000) studert politiblikket og det er grunn til ĺ anta at politiblikket ikke er et fargeblindt blikk.

Hvis det er slik at politiets kontroll rammer skjevt, vil resultatet kunne bli i likhet med diskrimineringshypotesen at lovbrudd utfřrt av innvandrere oftere oppdages, og at innvandrerens registrete kriminalitet dermed vil řke. Politiet pĺ sin side vil ut fra den hřye registrete kriminaliteten fĺ bekreftet at innvandrere er mer kriminelle enn nordmenn og dermed begrunne ytterligere kontroll ovenfor denne gruppen med den hřye registrete kriminaliteten.

Det ble i 1995 gjort en undersřkelse for Statistisk Sentralbyrĺ (av Ulla Haslund) som viste at siktede innvandrere oftere ble frifunnet og ikke ble tatt ut tiltale mot enn andre nordmenn.

Dĺrligere levekĺr blant innvandrere

Anne Britt Djuve, forsker ved FAFO (1999) skriver at til tross for at vi vet en del om hvilke kjennetegn ved et oppvekstmiljř som gir řkt risiko for ĺ utvikle en kriminell og asosial atferd har denne type resonnement vćrt fravćrende i debatten rundt innvandreres kriminalitet. Levekĺrsproblemer som dĺrlig řkonomi, dĺrlig bosstandard, foreldrenes arbeidsledighet i kombinasjon med opplevelse av utestenging og trakassering fra det norske samfunns side er en god oppskrift pĺ ĺ framprovosere aggresjon og kriminalitet (Djuve 1999:1).

Det er ogsĺ slik at de fleste som emigrerer fra fattige land bosetter seg i byer. Disse er ofte lavt utdannet, har hřy arbeidslřshet og lav politisk deltagelse. Disse faktorene vet vi henger sammen med hřyere registrert kriminalitet, og kan derfor forklare hvorfor innvandrere som har denne type fattigdomsprofil har hřyere registrert kriminalitet (Frogner 2003 : 135).

Ut fra de levekĺrene ikke-vestlige innvandrere utsettes for skulle man tro at deres registrere kriminalitet skulle vćrt enda hřyere. Statsadvokat Erik Fřrde uttalte at det var logisk at innvandrere har hřy registrert kriminalitet ut fra deres sosiale status, utdannelsesnivĺ, arbeidsledighet og eventuelle traumer fra hjemlandet. Jeg vil faktisk reise spřrsmĺl om de ikke er mindre overrepresentert enn det man kunne forvente ut fra situasjonen (Aftenposten 28.10.2002).

Ut fra dette kan man snu opp ned pĺ kulturforklaringer nĺr det gjelder kriminalitet, og stille spřrsmĺlstegn ved om ikke innvandrers kultur i stedet virker som en buffer mot at de faktisk begĺr mer kriminalitet til tross for de dĺrlige levekĺrene de lever under?

Fokuser mer pĺ innvandrere!

For ĺ gjřre noe med kriminaliteten břr man snarest mulig slutte ĺ fřre en innvandringsdebatt som kun skaper fremmedfrykt og řker diskriminering. Vi trenger ĺ nyansere kunnskapen om innvandrere, slik at det kommer frem at de fleste klarer seg bra i Norge og at man ser at de eneste de har felles er at de eller foreldrene deres er fřdt i utlandet. Selv om noen nasjonaliteter ser ut til ĺ vćre mer belastet nĺr det gjelder kriminalitet enn andre er det store forskjeller innenfor en nasjon.

I tillegg břr innvandrere fĺ en střrre plass i den offentlige bildet bĺde gjennom media og gjennom maktposisjoner i samfunnet. Det er kun gjennom ĺ gi innvandrere lik tilgang til samfunnsfunksjonene som resten av befolkningen at man ikke bare vil kunne skape et mer verdig samfunn, men ogsĺ redusere kriminaliteten i samfunnet.

Det ĺ fokusere pĺ innvandrere og kriminalitet er viktig. Det er viktig bĺde for samfunnet generelt og for innvandrere spesielt ĺ adressere problemet pĺ en redelig og ordentlig mĺte, slik at ikke enkelte debattanter kan tĺkelegge debatten og befeste fordommer. Ikke minst er det viktig at de ulike innvandrermiljřene deltar i debatten slik at de selv kan imřtekomme problemet. Fřrst da vil vi kunne ha en fruktbar og konstruktiv debatt rundt innvandrere og kriminalitet som sannsynliggjřr tiltak som faktisk vil kunne virke kriminalitetsforebyggende.

Medias innvandrerbilder

Innvandrere fungerer som en formĺlstjenlig syndebukk for kriminaliteten i samfunnet. Mange innvandrere og majoritetsnordmenn lever uten mye kontakt med hverandre, dette gjřr at stereotype bilder av hverandre lettere fĺr fotfeste. For eksempel blir den medieskapte karikaturen av et kriminelt gjengmedlem med pakistanske foreldre, med gullkjeder rundt halsen poserende foran en BMW, "sannheten" om alle pakistanske gutter. Innvandrere er ogsĺ gode syndebukker fordi de har fĺ muligheter til ĺ avkrefte og nyansere det bildet som skapes i den offentlige debatten. De innvandrere som fĺr spalteplass og sendetid knyttet til positive prestasjoner kan lett ses pĺ som unntaket som bekrefter regelen snarere enn som en helt vanlig innvandrer.

Et nćrliggende spřrsmĺl er hvem det gagner ĺ skape fiendebilder av innvandrere? Skyldes det kunnskaplřshet eller bunner det ut i et řnske om ĺ vinne flere velgere, flere lesere eller utvidete fullmakter ovenfor kriminalitet? Man gjřr den norske befolkningen en bjřrnetjeneste ved ĺ ensidig fokusere pĺ innvandrere og kriminalitet. Det skaper en sterkere frykt for kriminalitet enn den reelle utsatthet for lovbrudd. Frykten for kriminalitet kan derfor lett bli til frykten for innvandrere, og ytterligere diskriminering av innvandrere vil kunne virke kriminalitetsfremmende ved at denne gruppens levekĺr forverres.

Innvandreres situasjon i Europa

EU-kommisjonen slo i en rapport datert 14 mars i ĺr (IP/03/380) fast at innvandring ikke fřrer til řkt kriminalitet. Rapporten bygger pĺ en gjennomgang av 17 forskingsprosjekter om innvandring og kriminalitet fra ulike EU land. Det som derimot bekymret forskerne var den utstřtningen innvandrere opplever. I Europa blir etniske minoriteter i stor grad sett pĺ som outsidere som truer majoriteten. Sćrlig bekymring var det for den ekskluderingen mange innvandrere opplever i arbeidsmarkedet og i skolen. EU-rapporten gikk ogsĺ imot et av de forslagene som har vćrt fremmet i den norske debatten rundt innvandrere og kriminalitet, det ĺ stoppe innvandring, og konkluderte med at det vil ha liten effekt. Det som virkelig hjelper er hvor godt samfunnet lykkes i ĺ integrere innvandrere. Forskerne pekte pĺ hvor viktig det er ĺ fřlge opp barn med innvandrerbakgrunn i og utenfor skolen. Dersom de faller fra pĺ skolen og inn i lavstatusyrker eller i en status som ikke svarer til de ressursene de har tilegnet seg, da virker i prinsippet ikke integrering.

En av forskerne konkluderte med at nĺr innvandrere blir utstřtt og kriminalisert av samfunnet er faren stor for at samfunnet skaper mer kriminalitet blant innvandrere.

Pass deg for unge menn i byen!

Det er fristende ĺ stille spřrsmĺlstegn ved hvorfor det er sĺ stor interesse i den offentlige debatten for problemstillingen innvandrere og kriminalitet. Innvandrere stod i 1998 for kun 8% av den regisserte kriminaliteten. Ingen statistiske undersřkelser viser store forskjeller i kriminalitetsfrekvensen mellom innvandrere og resten av befolkningen til at det har noen kriminalpolitisk betydning. De store forskjellene i kriminalitet finner man mellom menn og kvinner, mellom unge og gamle, mellom by og land og mellom sosial klasser. I 1998 var 85% av de antatte gjerningspersonene menn, hovedtyngden var mellom 21 og 29 ĺr og 14% av dem bodde i Oslo. Ut fra dette blir det tydelig at hvis man er interessert i ĺ forstĺ det norske kriminalitetsbildet har det lite hensikt ĺ fokusere pĺ innvandreres kriminalitet. En mer relevant problemstilling ville vćre hvorfor begĺr unge menn i byen kriminalitet – hva slags kultur har de?

This is also very interesting reading . In Norway, and Sweden I suppose, there is another "problem" arising because of non-ethnic norwegians - the so called "russerbrud" or russian and polish women brought here by middle aged ethnic norwegians and abusing them and their children. Here's an interesting link:

Krisesenteret

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If it would often make the news that someone of ethnic group x has commited a particular crime, it would show the truth, and perhaps eliminate a possible prejudice that ethnic group y is more often behind that crime? If you get the idea.

In what way is that a good thing?

It'd open up for public debate of racism in all directions, segragation, multi-culture, cultur clashes, ...

Besides, perhaps it'd show Swedes are overrepresented amongst bank robberies, you would love that wouldn't you?

No, since I actually coulndn't care less if the person who robbed the bank in my hometown was Kurdish, Iraqi, Norwegian or Swedish. Unless, his nationality/ethnicity had something to do with WHY he robbed the bank, or something similar.

And what gives you the feeling that I would like to see Swedes overrepresented as perpetrators of any crime? But you however, seem to love putting blame on other ethnic groups besides Swedes. However, I don't wish to turn this into a pie throwing contest, so I'll just keep my fingers still for a wee while smile_o.gif

And wouldn't you say that the debate is pretty much open already? The debate can go on, without trying to INCREASE prejudice and racism by letting news bills read: "Kurdish man responsible for <insert crime here>". Personally, I don't want a society like America, where black people are blamed for almost every crime. It's so easy to say in a police report that the criminal was "of foreign descent" or "he spoke Swedish with a heavy accent". Atleast where I come from, many people are already doing this, seeing "immigrants" as the source of most crime.

(I might make no sense, and I apologize for that... Smokefilled rooms make me lightheaded)

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Quote[/b] ]Personally, I don't want a society like America, where black people are blamed for almost every crime.

Thank you for pointing to that fact....

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Quote[/b] ]Personally, I don't want a society like America, where black people are blamed for almost every crime.

Thank you for pointing to that fact....

Well, it may not be a fact. But that is the image I got by reading American newspapers, it may be better now though. The newspapers I have are from New York, Seattle and L.A and they were printed in 1987. Which might not reflect what is written today.

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If it would often make the news that someone of ethnic group x has commited a particular crime, it would show the truth, and perhaps eliminate a possible prejudice that ethnic group y is more often behind that crime? If you get the idea.

In what way is that a good thing?

It'd open up for public debate of racism in all directions, segragation, multi-culture, cultur clashes, ...

Besides, perhaps it'd show Swedes are overrepresented amongst bank robberies, you would love that wouldn't you?

No, since I actually coulndn't care less if the person who robbed the bank in my hometown was Kurdish, Iraqi, Norwegian or Swedish. Unless, his nationality/ethnicity had something to do with WHY he robbed the bank, or something similar.

So I take it you think papers shouldn't mention sex and age either.

Quote[/b] ]And wouldn't you say that the debate is pretty much open already? The debate can go on, without trying to INCREASE prejudice and racism by letting news bills read: "Kurdish man responsible for <insert crime here>". Personally, I don't want a society like America, where black people are blamed for almost every crime. It's so easy to say in a police report that the criminal was "of foreign descent" or "he spoke Swedish with a heavy accent". Atleast where I come from, many people are already doing this, seeing "immigrants" as the source of most crime.

Understand that it's not about blaming but about to show the truth, and why would it have to be on the news bills? It's really no different from mentioning sex and age. Or when it says, "boy shot police officer," do you think "oh damn boys, always shooting people" and form prejudice about boys, and think they always shoot police officers?

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Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]Furthermore if it was like you say with rapes in private sphere, I'm quite sure Save the Children / BRIS (Children's rights in society) etc would draw attention to it.

Believe me they have!

A few (in norwegian) :

Oh I meant if they noticed that immigrated girls are highly overrepresented in rapes in the private sphere. But they haven't.

Quote[/b] ]To reason like that would mean that no statistics on any crime is worth anything.

No not at all! The problem is that certain statistics are far too uncertain to work as a basis of judgements on an ethnic group.

That's your opinion. Like I said, they would have noticed if the proportions were reversed in the private sphere. So my opinion is that the statistics are reliable, proportion wise.

Quote[/b] ]And do take time to read this. The author is a lecturer at the Police Academy.

ehh I looked over it a little. It tries to explains why immigrants are criminal, such as that they are often poorer, cultural differences etc. Yep -- but they're still overrepresented in many crimes of violent nature. The reason why doesn't really make much of a difference, no one has been saying it's in their blood and that they couldn't be different. If you want to point out something specific, please make it bold or just post that part, if you like.

Quote[/b] ]Concerning the robberies you also forgot to mention what Denoir said about the same known perpetrator responsible for several crimes of the same sort..........meaning the statistical probability for being raped/robbed by an "immigrant" is less than already supposed.

This is from your previous post, forgot to answer to this.

No. It means that the probability is exactly the same, except that the number of possible perpetrator is a teeny tiny bit lower than supposed.

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I dont see that the argument that pointing out ethnicity might decrase predjudce really works.  The kind of people  inclined to see race as a factor in crime, in fact people in general dont really see race as factor in crime when its their own a member of their own race or nationality that did it.

Newspapers dont print the criminals nationality or make it part of the headline when the person is from that country. i.e gang of immigrants would just be gang of men or youths.

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