European Politics Thread.

[vilas 477]

we produced cars for people who earn 500 euros, not for people who earn 2500 

now those people buy 20 years old or 15 or 10  years old cars (from Germany, Netherlands, second hand cars) 

but shampoo, soap and such like products are more important - because it is basic consumer need and milions use it and such industry efficiency is similar and cannot say about poor efficiency , just about tax , privatization and such like issues, 

if such everyday-consumer-needs production is destroyed, than people will buy it anyway, just from other producer , imported, 

such plants had few dozens or hundreds of employee plus hundreds of cooperators (chemical, bottles etc.)  and such destruction causes for example 1000 people loosing job here, but several dozen percent bigger sale to competitive producer - which is clear profit , if cost of privatization (corrupted) is lower than this profit , 

if bribe was milion, price was milion, but market can generate 3 milions, than 3-1-1=1 on plus anyway 

so foetus corrupted privatization are profit for competition - it is such obvious that i am suprise you do not understand it 

economy basis is competition, if competition is destroyed, than one who one takes market, it is basic 

[dontknowhow 33]

we produced cars for people who earn 500 euros, not for people who earn 2500 

now those people buy 20 years old or 15 or 10  years old cars (from Germany, Netherlands, second hand cars) 

but shampoo, soap and such like products are more important - because it is basic consumer need and milions use it and such industry efficiency is similar and cannot say about poor efficiency , just about tax , privatization and such like issues, 

if such everyday-consumer-needs production is destroyed, than people will buy it anyway, just from other producer , imported

I could say that maybe people still preferred other cars for a similar price. For example maintenance is easier (just making things up, don't know if it's true). It's difficult now as I don't have information, but that's the main point.

And for shampoo and soap I think there is indeed an important marketing aspect (should talk to an expert though), but that's not all of it. I find it terrible for example that I can find a specific soap only in Italy. And shampoo and soap are a small part of the economy.

[vilas 477]

 

 

 And shampoo and soap are a small part of the economy.

 

1000 people working for example in different companies and cooperators, 

10 000 taxes for which there can be build X things for locals ,

500 people more working abroad (difference of 1000 and 500 is not in efficiency but every production raise do not force double workforce) 

and 10 000 taxes for which there can be build X for locals

and shampoo is example

 

if destruction touches "hundreds" of such plants , than it multiply by hundreds 

 

if we multiply it to 50 plants for example

 

50 000 unemployed here

10 000 employed there (even if those employee are from those former destructed plants and not locals)

500 000 taxes less here (influence on life, hospitals, army , police, infrastructure) and living worse

500 000 taxes more there  (influence on life, hospitals, army , police, infrastructure) and living better

 

this is what we call neo-colony (by corporations) which makes one country richer (taxes paid there, taxes from bigger production, bigger workforce etc) and weakening other country (less taxes, unemployment) and when some corporations get help from abroad (for us abroad) government than it smells colonializm

[dontknowhow 33]

If you are saying that it's better to have a local company I obviously agree; everybody does. Big part of the profits go abroad. But a foreign company gives in any case jobs and money, and the option to buy better things at a cheaper price. You should maybe ask those people why they prefer the German car, even if much older, or the Dutch soap.

And again, nothing forbids Poland to build its own companies, maybe using the know how that workers build working for the colonists. It can be difficult if you do that in a sector like soaps, but there are a lot of more profitable sectors to explore. Like videogames :)

[vilas 477]

 

 

And again, nothing forbids Poland to build its own companies,

 

do you live in alternative reality where plant is build from cash ? not from bank loan 

 

 

 

 Like videogames  :)

 

Witcher 3 gave less jobs than stupid soap manufactory, Witcher 3 is high-tech jobs, tax yes, but apart from such company we would need 100 "soap" factories to give job to milion of natives who are not that skilled but need to eat, 

what about if German or French farmer gets funds and other farmer doesn't (and his product could make French farmer go to unemployment) but EU limits production causes other farmer being poor 

 

you never heard about EU limits on production per each country  ?  like in USSR

 

 

 

But a foreign company gives in any case jobs

 

where ? in which area ? if product is imported - it doesn't , i was on and on giving examples of destruction of plants - which caused IMPORT , IMPORT and once again IMPORT (this gives job only to few truck drivers which would operate anyway on local market )

if company produce here  yes it gives jobs, what about CIT ? 

if company is high-tech where there is dozen people and machines do all job, than what is tax from dozen people from company which could pay milion of CIT

 

 

 

why they prefer the German car, even if much older, or the Dutch soap.

many people would buy local if they could, due to patriotism , for many people patriotism is important factor when they buy , many migrants would return to fatherland if they had jobs, cause their aim is not to live form benefits 

[Tonci87 163]

 

 

many people would buy local if they could, due to patriotism , for many people patriotism is important factor when they buy 

 

 

No it´s not. For most people price and quality determine if they will buy something or not, If foreign companies produce better and cheaper products the local industry will have a hard time selling their own stuff.

[vilas 477]

No it´s not. For most people price and quality determine if they will buy something or not, If foreign companies produce better and cheaper products the local industry will have a hard time selling their own stuff.

 

 

most is not all

for many still it is important, look at Russian word "inomarki" - other country products

in USA there was also strong economical patriotism,

here it is also important factor if something is made in here, maybe not for majority but for some dozens of customers, (i found one poll saying it is important for ca. 21 % of consumers but when comes to arms than in polls 40% say "it must be ours to give jobs here") , i should found more poll results, but even if it is 20%, than it is part of market , because people know it has relation with jobs maybe of their relatives, 

i cannot say about Hungary because i do not know, 

i found poll saying that "Dunish people are market nationalists and buy Danish products" which may be false or exaggeration but  i would not say that "market patriotism" doesn't exist 

[dontknowhow 33]

do you live in alternative reality where plant is build from cash ? not from bank loan

as I said, in some sectors it can be more difficult. And companies usually start small, they don't invest billions in a factory

 

 

Witcher 3 gave less jobs than stupid soap manufactory, Witcher 3 is high-tech jobs, tax yes, but apart from such company we would need 100 "soap" factories to give job to milion of natives who are not that skilled but need to eat, 

See, when you talk about non skilled natives you automatically imply the lower level of the economy

I put a smiley there. Obviously the game thing was not completely serious, even if it's an idea. You have a lof of services you can build, if you only put some effort in it.

 

 

what about if German or French farmer gets funds and other farmer doesn't (and his product could make French farmer go to unemployment) but EU limits production causes other farmer being poor 

I honestly won't even bother looking for this, I have done it enough. I am already sure this is not correct.

 

Anyway, my point was that the Polish economy simply couldn't keep that condition. It had to change, and quickly. If your problem is the domination of foreign companies you can join the many people complaining about trade agreements. I'm sure you can learn more from those discussions than from me.

[dontknowhow 33]

in USA there was also strong economical patriotism,

There *was*, and not even that much. It later went down the drain

Tonci is right

[vilas 477]

 

 

See, when you talk about non skilled natives you automatically imply the lower level of the economy

 

in every society Gauss trend show how IQ is distributed, 

in all societies people with Master Degree are miniority 

in all societies people with low skills exist

and they need work and industry for them to work 

 

everyone people with low skills exist and they need jobs , cause they need food , pay bills etc. so simple industry must exist so people have jobs, all people , low skilled, high skilled, cause both eat 

destruction of low-tech industry is big tragedy cause such people will not find another jobs, 

people who are coders will get job anywhere 

[dontknowhow 33]

in all societies people with low skills exist

and they need work and industry for them to work 

You know this is not the point. Take an average skill level, and in more developed economies it's probably higher. It's not necessarily related to IQ.

And obviously everyone needs food on the table. But you can't blame some economies if they just do better

[vilas 477]

 

 

You know this is not the point. Take an average skill level, and in more developed economies it's probably higher. It's not necessarily related to IQ.

 

skills (not IQ to learn something new and difficult ) are trained by schools depend of education system and motivation by competition  , 

in poor country people can be educated better , in rich countries the same people may focus on partying on and on and not learn, 

in high unemployment environment people have to raise education to fight competition, in low competitive environment people will go to party, 

skills of being trained at new equipment (PC as exampls, CNC ) is different due to economy of country (education budget) 

so it may be opposite than what you said, because competition makes people try harder, lack of competition wakes a cat in man (cat sleeps and wait for food )

[dontknowhow 33]

skills (not IQ to learn something new and difficult ) are trained by schools depend of education system and motivation by competition  , 

in poor country people can be educated better , in rich countries the same people may focus on partying on and on and not learn, 

in high unemployment environment people have to raise education to fight competition, in low competitive environment people will go to party, 

skills of being trained at new equipment (PC as exampls, CNC ) is different due to economy of country (education budget) 

so it may be opposite than what you said, because competition makes people try harder, lack of competition wakes a cat in man (cat sleeps and wait for food )

Maybe your view of life in rich countries needs to be trimmed a bit. It might come as a shock to you, but people actually work here. And they learn too.

And I don't want to doubt that people in poorer countries can learn, but as a matter of fact they don't. Or even worse: they do, they just don't have a chance to put what they learn in practice, because of several factors.

[vilas 477]

http://img4.demotywatoryfb.pl//uploads/201510/1444337879_cvjrzg_600.jpg

Romanian parliament works on law that forces supermarkets to have at least half of food products being from local farmers ! 

bravo :)

Bardosy - i heard that when Orban taxed foreign corporations - he found so much money that taxes decreased in Hungary, can you tell us more ?

[dontknowhow 33]

http://img4.demotywatoryfb.pl//uploads/201510/1444337879_cvjrzg_600.jpg

Romanian parliament works on law that forces supermarkets to have at least half of food products being from local farmers ! 

bravo :)

Bardosy - i heard that when Orban taxed foreign corporations - he found so much money that taxes decreased in Hungary, can you tell us more ?

There are a lot of people against free trade agreements. Maybe you should join them. This goes far beyond Europe.

[vilas 477]

if supermarkets are foreign and they bring foreign product (previously donated by EU funds) and refuse take local competitive  - than such intervention is must, 

again what you hate to see - this colonialism returns, 

markets are abroad-companies, 

our farmers have lower donation, French farmer when our product is cheaper - make riots - i can remind (or you not know) when Polish cheaper product hit French market , French farmers made riots, they blocked road, stopped trucks, throw to road our products, 

than French government paid them dotation, 

now in French market we can buy THEIR product, while our product was halted , 

in 2013 Polish farmers produced too much of milk and other products than EU wanted, EU gave fines to Polish farmers, 

in free market - price decides, if Polish is cheaper - than Polish farmer should earn

in EU - French or German farmer can block road, destroy our products, he gets donation from his government, his product is pushed to supermarkets, 

those supermarkets are mostly French or German

and like we gave examples with Bardosy

in job we were paid by Sodexo tickets, instead of cash, i get Sodexo bill for which i could pay in Carrefour , 

such things were happening here in 2007, 2008, if i get cash - i could decide where to spend it, but i was paid by Sodexo tickets , 

this is not fair trade and it is not free market, if our cheaper product is stopped, and more expensive product with some donation is pushed instead, 

EU for years (on some products it was cut last year) had so called limits, quotas - maybe you do not know it or ignore it, 

uncle of my woman was fisherman, his business was okay, but EU gave limit on fishing and he was told "we will pay you benefit if you will wreck your boat, if you won't wreck, simply noone will buy your fish"

my woman had to cut cows because of milk limits on Poland too  , those limits were results of French farmers on strike in France , another result is French government paing them, 

question - what milk, potato, tomato - i can buy in Carrefour , Lidl, Leclerk, Auchan, Jerhronim Martens (i have mostly such shops in my area) 

western countries still have protectionism politics on their economy, when our market is monopolized by their supermarkets and banks, it make losses here,

and this protectionism is paid in fact by us, cause those tax money in France come also from profit from French supermarkets here (tax paid in France from selling in Poland) 

money create closed circle:

Polish consumer buys foreign product in foreign market, this market pays tax abroad, this tax refunds foreign farmer cost, 

if there was no foreign paid tax, if there was no refunding on west, our farming industry would make us economical superpower, cause we produce cheaper, more natural, it would make foreign farmers unemployed, it would work like that in really free market and in really fair trade (cannot call it fair now, when tax is not paid here, when refund is paid there) 

[dontknowhow 33]

if supermarkets are foreign and they bring foreign product (previously donated by EU funds) and refuse take local competitive  - than such intervention is must, 

That's your first mistake right there.

Supermarkets want to sell. They don't care where their stuff comes from. All they want is that it's legal, for the rest they just want to make money. If they don't sell a specific item, make no mistakes, they have a reason that has nothing to do with colonialism.

[Tonci87 163]

LOL, a Supermarket will simply sell anything that has the highest profit margin. They really don´t give a fuck where it comes from.

[vilas 477]

maybe you would come here for shopping instead ot typing from abroad ?

because you comment and deny things you do not see in real life (here)

of course French farmers made riots to get donations 

[dontknowhow 33]

maybe you would come here for shopping instead ot typing from abroad ?

because you comment and deny things you do not see in real life (here)

of course French farmers made riots to get donations 

Good idea. I come to Warsaw (maybe Tonci is coming too), and I go with you to a couple of supermarkets, and ask the managers why they don't take more local products.

 

1) farmers riot everywhere. It's a mess, and I think it's mostly fixed. If you want to go into it I'm afraid it will be some hard work

2) one thing is talking about farmers, one thing is talking about everything. The situation with the farmers might be bit more sensitive

3) is the problem the farmers subsidy or the colonialist supermarkets?

[Tonci87 163]

Vilas, if a supermarket is selling foreign products then only because he can buy and import them cheaper. Go into one of those stores and tell me where the potatoes come from (the country of origin has to be declared).

[vilas 477]

what about dotating after riots ? 

but agriculture is just one example product, other products like chemistry can go from companies who have agreement with supermarkets, 

and later in small towns i buy different marks/brands than in supermarket, price is similar at wholesaler, but director of market prefers his country (maybe he is pushed by company , managment board etc)

in small towns, villages completly different brands are present, people there can buy cheaper local production, in big cities supermarket killed competition and sell what their managment decides, maybe cause managment board told something, 

 

Romanian parliament would not work on such regulations if there was no problem 

[dontknowhow 33]

what about dotating after riots ? 

but agriculture is just one example product, other products like chemistry can go from companies who have agreement with supermarkets, 

and later in small towns i buy different marks/brands than in supermarket, price is similar at wholesaler, but director of market prefers his country (maybe he is pushed by company , managment board etc)

in small towns, villages completly different brands are present, people there can buy cheaper local production, in big cities supermarket killed competition and sell what their managment decides, maybe cause managment board told something, 

 

Romanian parliament would not work on such regulations if there was no problem 

concerning riots: agricultural subsidies are not a simple matter, I told you. Look for example here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy

 

I personally never heard of any of these agreements, and I don't see why a supermarket should do it. Again, if you are so focused ask managers in a supermarket. You are a paying customers, and you want local products.

 

Maybe the Romanian parliament is just trying to pass a protectionist law. Nothing related to the preferences of the people who actually buy (and pay)

[Tonci87 163]

What about the potatoes Vilas?

[bardosy 157]

Bardosy - i heard that when Orban taxed foreign corporations - he found so much money that taxes decreased in Hungary, can you tell us more ?

In Hungary, before Orban the multinational corpses didn't pay tax, not a single cent. Not because they are special, but because they have the best lawyers and they cheat. Government of Orban found new ways to force them to pay. And we were punished with multiple EU sanction because we dare to force companies from France, Germany, UK to pay taxes. It's a nonsense, but it happened.

 

But the personal taxes (not the corporate ones) are not changes because of this. What changed because of this is the prices of domestic services (domestic electricity, water, gas...). The government spent the extra income from multinational corporation to lower the price of these services, because the original price was higher than in Germany (an average family used more than 60% of their payment to these services). It was accused by media, just a campaign act. Yes, but it was much more. Lot of family gain a chance to buy something new or go to vacation. And of course it was the main reason how could Orban won his second government against a brutal hostile media (Of course Hungary is a dictatorship, where majority of media is against the dictator... :) )

 

The personal taxes changed, because of foreign and local businessmen. They work here, they live here, but they don't pay income tax, because of the same reason as multinational corporations: they cheat it. But everybody pay VAT when shopping. So Orban used this fact and lower the income tax, what is good for the most people and raise the VAT. We have almost the higher VAT in the world (27%). Except the basic-food (bread, sugar... etc). So when rich businessmen cheat their income tax, they cannot cheat too much. But they cannot cheat VAT, so finally they pay tax in Hungary and it was the goal of government.