European Politics Thread.

[vilas 473]

 

nd that is exactly the issue at hand here, Facebook is way to lax when it comes to hatespeech of any kind and that is what the german government wants to change.

i do not believe Merkel

so far they already act effectively when there is something against Jews, Muslims, Black etc.

they do it ALREADY

they simply want to CUT any news like "in imigrant camp refugees gangraped working there women and beaten christian refugees" or news like "in small town all burglaries and robberies are commited by 5 gypsy families who live there" or "since come of imigrants in our town crimes rate arosen for 1400%" or news like "in NKVD 40 percent officers were Jewish orgin"

if there will be news like "White drunken driver killed Black pedestrian" such news will be bolded

i do not belive Merkel, i do not belive Shultz and etc

they want to replace freedoms with politically correct tyrany and cenzorship, so voting is fake because voters have fake informations and only in TOR people read other news in 2020

in Poland in campaign against hate speech they used fake grafitti that doesn't exist, it was photoshoped, it was shown by right wing and clarified that it is fake,

with cenzorship - only official news works

Merkel already made a lot of mess in Europe, already she made mess, because of her, people like me would never get flat and have family, cause imigrants will get for free, and it is from my taxes

 

than future is like before 1989 - only state governmental media say 1 version

 

i support freedom and equality of chances, not cenzorship, i do not belive in good ideas of Merkel, she already shown her deeds and partly (not mainly) because of her Europe is now under flood and more and more people want to break EU and leave EU

[dontknowhow 33]

That is actually not what it is about, as usuall the media you consume is astonishingly missinformed or twisting the truth. There is free speech in Germany, so everybody is entitled to his own opinion. That of course extends to the internet.

If someone for example writes on facebook that he hates immigrants, that is OK. It is his right to do that.

However, in the last few months there have been problems with inciting comments on facebook and that is what the law prohibits.

So again to keep it very simple:

Posting "I hate immigrants" -> OK

Posting "I hate immigrants, someone should kill them all / Burn their homes / We should deport them all / a shame they didn´t all drown in the sea" -> inciting -> totally not OK

I don't know exactly what this Facebook thing is about, but this is well said.

The most interesting thing of the pages of this thread I have seen is that there seems to be a basic east-west divide in Europe that goes beyond this refugee thing. Socially speaking it's very interesting.

[Tonci87 163]

i do not believe Merkel

so far they already act effectively when there is something against Jews, Muslims, Black etc.

they do it ALREADY

they simply want to CUT any news like "in imigrant camp refugees gangraped working there women and beaten christian refugees" or news like "in small town all burglaries and robberies are commited by 5 gypsy families who live there" or "since come of imigrants in our town crimes rate arosen for 1400%" or news like "in NKVD 40 percent officers were Jewish orgin"

if there will be news like "White drunken driver killed Black pedestrian" such news will be bolded

i do not belive Merkel, i do not belive Shultz and etc

they want to replace freedoms with politically correct tyrany and cenzorship, so voting is fake because voters have fake informations and only in TOR people read other news in 2020

in Poland in campaign against hate speech they used fake grafitti that doesn't exist, it was photoshoped, it was shown by right wing and clarified that it is fake,

with cenzorship - only official news works

Merkel already made a lot of mess in Europe, already she made mess, because of her, people like me would never get flat and have family, cause imigrants will get for free, and it is from my taxes

 

than future is like before 1989 - only state governmental media say 1 version

 

i support freedom and equality of chances, not cenzorship, i do not belive in good ideas of Merkel, she already shown her deeds and partly (not mainly) because of her Europe is now under flood and more and more people want to break EU and leave EU

 

 

Vilas you have no idea!

Facebook is not effective at that stuff, facebook simply outright refuses to censor anything (unless it has boobs in it). As I said, the german facebook had been flooded by nazi comments and content. 

[vilas@o2.pl 2]

with cenzorship people should be very aware to not drawn child during bath 

 

for nazi comments - there is penal code

if someone would wrote "kill all Jews" - we can put him to prison, we should not do cenzorship to stop comments against Jews for example

we can put to prison people who call to kill someone

[vilas 473]

damn it logged from account by email , sorry to moderation, please delete double post/double account which i log by mistake by email box

 

(and not drown, not drawn ;) sorry)

again - freedom is resposibilty and mature behaviour

you allow people say "lets kill all Jews" but than you delete such post which calls to kill someone, use it as proof in persecution, prison him for calling to commit murder - there is paragraph for it, 

but we cannot cut ALL comments negative to Jews , because you can drow child during bath, we should cut and cenzor only misleading lies - for example someone will wrote "Poles murdered more Jews than Germans" - we should ban such article, on this  i agree, but of course after serious case and proceeding and proving author is wrong, 

but we should not ban article "in NKVD there were following nations in percent", because than someone would have no idea "why this guy is anti-X" for example, 

knowledge is part of decision process, decision process is part of democracy, we should keep truth 

freedom is resposibility, we allow people do things, for some things we punish, 

but we should not cenzor such things, for few reasons , freedom itself, second reason is to know what people really think, to have information, to have real voting not fake voting

 

we value democracy - what is democracy ? 

choosing

how can we choose if we have no idea ?

we can choose when we have all cons and pros

if there is cenzorship - than we have only one side, sorry , but before 1989 in communist era i had only 2 TV programs and all were from government , 

people had no idea what happens in the real world - we believed that TV serie Dynasty shows real life of average American, commies were showing homeless from NY and we believed that commies lie cause all in USA are rich 

 

so lets make little brain storm example:

- mr A and mr B say:

 

line 1 mr A is Jew or Black or Muslim , he says "2+2=5"

2 mr B is White, he says "no way, 2+2=4"

3 mr A says "you racist"

4 mr B say "Black liar like other Black, Jews lies like other Jews, Muslim liar"

okay

 

what to do in following situation ? 

cut which post , cenzor which one ?

which line to cut ?

1 ? 2? 3? 4? 

left wing cenzorship would cut line 4

 

cenzorship is not good idea, 

for people who call to kill, murder - we have paragraphs and we can send them to prison

 

in case of Polish police and courts - such neonazis end fast 

 

maybe more often comments in German internet are caused by wrong politics of Merkel and Merkel try to cover it by covering exxagerated critics too 

 

i said it in Ukrainian topic, i said here

if there is biger percent of nazis, it means mainstream poltics is wrong

usual nazis in all societies are 1% or less, 

because such number of extreme is normal

 

if there is 10% somewhere - it is because there is something wrong with country, mainstream, elites - not with people who react on mainstream mistakes by going extreme , 

going extreme is always answer to wrong politics of country

 

usual extreme believing in their superiority is 1% (in Russia Zhyrinovsky is much more, so lets not count Russia in this and in how many permiles of alcohol in blood man survives, also Polish blood doesn't die when others are dead, we survive twice more alco in blood ;)  )

 

more extreme = there is desperation of people

 

if we have 100 nazis on march - it is okay, everywhere there are looneys, another 100 people believe that aliens traveled bilion miles from other galaxy to rape anally their cow, all is okay, 

if we have 10 000 nazis march - it means that government screwed something to native (for example last things - bigger social care to foreigner than to taxpayer - it makes me mad too) and people see no other hope

 

nature want equilibrum, life is pendulum, when you push it too far left, it goes back too far right, 

west naively thinks life can be far left - only result will be NSDAP v 2

[bardosy 154]

As I said, the german facebook had been flooded by nazi comments and content. 

 

Very odd. How could the Hungarian facebook team be so forward beyond the German team? This is almost the only thing what we are "better" then the Germans... ;) In Hungary, since facebook exists, you cannot post any hateful against gipsies or jews, but you can curse the christians. And until now, you could curse the muslims too. This is very new here, the people in facebook since now cannot psot hateful thing about muslims. :)

 

As dontknowhow said, there are differences between western and eastern european society. And now - because of immigration - it's in dramatic change.

Historiclly in west, the right-wing parties are pro-Israel and the left-wing is the anti-Israel. In eastern countries it was contrary. And the liberal mainstream media wrote awful things about muslims and if someone try to defend muslims, he became immediately a nazi and terrorist. Now it's in change: the liberal mainsream media defend the muslims and if you don't you became a nazi and terrorist.

Very funny to watch, how these liberals (and of course the far-right too) change their toughts, because of this invasion.

Now in Hungary, the political nowspaper has a special coulmn to quote the politicians' and jurnalists' older statements. The right-wing news tell about the liberals, who want all muslims dead. And the liberal news quote right-wing politicians who defend muslims.

 

 

The most interesting thing of the pages of this thread I have seen is that there seems to be a basic east-west divide in Europe that goes beyond this refugee thing. Socially speaking it's very interesting.

@dontknowhow: absolute agree with you. It's very interesting. Western countries had colonies and its society feel (or at least felt) guilty about this and this is why they are more tolerable with immigrants from far cultures (what was robed by western countries). Eastern countries was colonies (and never had any colony), so we don't feel guilty, but we are very sensitive to our freedom and independence, because western countries used to take these from us. We lost our independence so usually in the history, so we became very angry when someone try to take it from us again.

Putting these, very different countries into one union was a nice dream, but probably it won't work.

When we had the referendum to join the EU, most people was euphoric, because the simple people think they will be live on German life-style. But intellectuals said: it's not good to join EU, we should join to something like Austria-Hungary (but of course not on basement of this kingdom nationality-system) or something like the current Visheghrad countries. Brussel is so far from here, they never will understand what happened here, so they will never do any act what is good for us. Most German and French thinks: "why these eastern countries shouting? we sent the money, it's good enough, stop demanding rights." That money what you sent us, caused more trouble than good things. So we don't need that money. We need equal rights.

And this is what superpowers also never understand: Putin and Obama are arguing about what they should bomb. Guys! Think! What about not bombing? Or Merkel and Cameron are arguing who will send more money to Syria. Guys! Think! What about not sending money to feed this war? Syria no need bombs and no need money. The perfect solution should be to not start a war there anyway. Stop invading middle-east countries! Stop intervention into their interior-affairs. This is their affairs and when they did this, it won't cause so much suffer, dead and refugees as it did, when USA start intervention.

[vilas 473]

 

 

Western countries had colonies and its society feel (or at least felt) guilty about this and this is why they are more tolerable with immigrants from far cultures (what was robed by western countries). Eastern countries was colonies (and never had any colony), so we don't feel guilty, but we are very sensitive to our freedom and independence, because western countries used to take these from us. We lost our independence so usually in the history, so we became very angry when someone try to take it from us again.

 

holy words 

 

west had colonies and built their wealth on cheap labor 

we were colonies, we were cheap labor , we were occupied

 

west say about common army, common law

Poland was occupied for 123 years by 3 countries, than attacked by USSR, than 18 years of independence, than WW2 and than communism

for us defending national independence is holy thing, any "common army" is unacceptable, 

our ancestors fought for "Poland to be Polish" and i would fought against any ideas that destroy sovereignty, selling national industry abroad is for me one of heaviest crime, maybe heavier than pedophilia, destroying tradition is equal what Tsar, Nazis and Stalin was trying to do,

 

 

 

And this is what superpowers also never understand: Putin and Obama are arguing about what they should bomb. Guys! Think! What about not bombing? Or Merkel and Cameron are arguing who will send more money to Syria. Guys! Think! What about not sending money to feed this war? Syria no need bombs and no need money. The perfect solution should be to not start a war there anyway. Stop invading middle-east countries! Stop intervention into their interior-affairs. This is their affairs and when they did this, it won't cause so much suffer, dead and refugees as it did, when USA start intervention.

 

agree, but problem is that both Russia, USA have "allies" in Middle East and they "help" when ally has conflict with other middle east country, or they simply fight "who will rob this colony"

for me the best solution would be "build thick wall, buy oil from Arabs, but do not make any intervention, they live their life, we live our, they live according their tradition, we live according to our and we not let them cross wall, on our territory there is our tradition and any other is banned"

we can trade, when they would try to do jihad , we send bombers , if sunnis want to slaughter sheets or sheets want to slaughter sunnis  - it is their business , when one christian is killed it becomes our business

 

 

 

When we had the referendum to join the EU, most people was euphoric, because the simple people think they will be live on German life-style. But intellectuals said: it's not good to join EU, we should join to something like Austria-Hungary (but of course not on basement of this kingdom nationality-system) or something like the current Visheghrad countries

 

first of all in referendum we were lied, they said that EU is borderless touristic zone when you can apply for job

noone said about political correctness or loosing sovereignty for which grandfather died

 

far -right was saying "EU limits soveignity, vote against EU" and people were told by mainstream  "far right lies, they are liars, EU is paradise, you travel for tourism, you can find better job abroad and they will give us money to build here roads and hospitals" 

noone said "hospital is funded half from EU and for another half you must take credit in bank" noone said "their supermarket will not pay here tax but transfer much more than all EU funds "

bilance of being in EU ? we get 66 bilions from EU funds , every year 11 bilions are transfered abroad by corporations that do not pay taxes, 

66/11=6, which means EU was profitable but in period of 6 years, 

after 7th year it make economy "on minus" plus our debt it twice bigger (yes, twice) plus all mess with other culture which now happens, only Orban forced western corporations  to pay taxes, i hope new government in Poland after election will do the same, than maybe i will shut mouth, but now 11 bilions of euro every years fly away from our tax system while Polish businesman pay 19% Corp.Income Tax (CIT) 

 

Vyshehrad Union would be the best, and partnership with EU on "Schengen" agreement (free borderless transport, touristic movement) and technical regulations (ISO -like) also without this "gay marriage" stuff, noone here wants to kill gays like muslims do it, but marriage with adoption is exaggeration, 

 

 

 

 Western countries had colonies and its society feel (or at least felt) guilty about this a

 

yes, it shapes western people mentality

our mentality is opposite - it was we who were told by Hitler "to be erased from planet" (plan of holocaust was not only about Jews, but Slavic people too)

it was we  who were "Germanized" "Russified" etc. 

we were victims and usually victim feels need to vent, be repaid, etc. 

saying by German - Martin Shultz - that there is need to use force to punish Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and others for not taking muslims (who were bigger foreign legion of SS) is for us like spit in face, i just hope that western people will change voting preferences and people like Merkel, Shultz , Junkers, Hollande will be past or in prisons sitting there with Tusk, mr Shultz make in me one serious change - i want Poland to leave EU, and in such situation Nordstream-2 (where Germany again agrees with Russia, like all centuries ago) , having in mind gold from WW2, having in mind giving refugee status commie criminals from Stalin era which we were refused deportation after 1989

mr. Shultz made that people in Slovakia and Czech collect signatures for referendum to quit EU -

even if they will not sucseed - but many people want to leave EU, 

both west and east Ukrainians who started war also on joining EU case , now in western Ukraine according to polls, those who want EU are tiny majority (i mean little above 50%)  they are not huge convicted majority, but 51-52%, 

fact that mr. Shultz after his speech was not suspended and fired is scandal, i would trust EU if next day after his speech i would see his resignation and honor ... for what he said , there is no worse than calling to use force against countries to bring them other culture

it is what occupants do, what was Russification, what was nazism etc. 

[dontknowhow 33]

I might look at this as a good example of difference.

What are you guys talking about? Colonies? Freedom and independence taken away? It's Europe guys. Everybody has been everybody's colony, for longer than 2000 years. That has been the game until 70 years ago. Blaming us for whatever problem is honestly absurd.

And I don't know what they told you beck then, but being part of the EU doesn't mean prosperity comes for free. You are supposed to do your job. That is unfortunately what some countries in western Europe have to understand too. Hopefully we are getting there.

[bardosy 154]

Our main problem (and the first shock) was after joining EU: the supportive payment to western farmers. If a German farmer grow potato, the EU pay him all the costs and even the profit too. So the German farmer can sell the potato for free or very cheap. But in the EU there are no equal rights, so the EU don't support the Hungarian farmer, so he need to sell the potato at price what include the costs and profit. So Hungarian farmer will be bankrupted, because his potato cannot be a competitor of German free potato. And the Hungarian farmer has no right to buy land in Germany, but German farmer has right to by the land of Hungarian farmer (and he can buy it very cheap, because he's bankrupted by EU).

It was our first shock after joining the EU and we realized this union is not a community of equal countries, but a new colonization.

 

And of course you can change the word "German" to "French" or "British" or even "Spanish". And "potato" to "wheat", "corn" or even "industry".

 

As I said earlier: we don't need money, don't need EU supportive payment. We need equal rights. We joined a community (at least they told so), not an empire. (It's also funny - after all this - EU now questioning our solidarity in this immigration crisis.)

[vilas 473]

if you do not know that buying for cheap our industry by foreign companies is neo-colonialism than you will never understand, 

if you do not understand that transfer of profits by western corporations from our market (without taxation) is neo-colony you will never understand,

they sell products here , we pay for products, they pay tax abroad, income flows away from here , our business bankrupts cause our has to pay taxes, 

they do not pay taxes, 

the only absurd is your absurd when when you say that freedom is not taken away but Merkel tells what we must do here, Merkel is German, voted by Germans, not by Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians, 

 

 

Everybody has been everybody's colony, 

 

bullshit, lots of eastern europe countries never had colonies, 

 

 

That has been the game until 70 years ago.

and that carries on, till 1989 to USSR (we were selling coal for 1 USD per tonne)

and after 1989 when loosing commies sold industry, banking , enegetic sector (what about Tonci says in Greek topic)

now i have to take credit in Deutche Bank or Credit Agricole, for product made by Siemens , which i buy in Carrefour, Auchan, Lidl, Tesco, and electricity to my house goes by RWE wires, 

my friend worked in factory producing washing machines - bankrupted due to tax issues

other friend had small grocery shop - bankrupted due to taxes, he paid more taxes than big Carrefour or Lidl or Tesco around 

this is new form of colony, not realized by ARMIES

but by corporations and mr. Shultz telling to use force if we not agree to give free flats to muslims, while we do not have OUR OWN flats because we cannot afford it (or we got to take credit in FOREIGN bank)

and 11 bilions of euro of not paid taxes goes every year abroad

this is colony , because from my payment, French, German worker has better condition in his corporation (transfer of profit, ) Frenchman working in Carrefour has paradise, Pole working there not , because transfer of profit which fuels local French budget of company

it would not been colony if i bought Polish freezer , Polish car produced by Polish company for credit in Polish bank which pays taxes in Poland and when Polish native had bigger benefit than muslim which came cause Merkel invited him

[bardosy 154]

Everybody has been everybody's colony, for longer than 2000 years. That has been the game until 70 years ago. Blaming us for whatever problem is honestly absurd.

 

Please named what countries were colony of Hungary or Poland!

And please name your western country and let me to list your colonies!

Then we can talk about absurdity... Don't deny history!

 

Your original point was interesting, we can talk about differences and the cause of these differences. But this post of you is absurd. So let back to your original!

[vilas 473]

 

 

Our main problem (and the first shock) was after joining EU: the supportive payment to western farmers.

 

we had no idea too

when "potato" (or any other vegetable) is too cheap, French farmer block road, make mess, gets money

when Polish farmer try to block road, riot police comes and story ends (as i told long ago, my woman is farmer so i know details) but not only farmers, coal industry, shipyard (ship building ?)

 

and about soveirgnity - he probably never heard about production quotas 

in free market, if we produce cheaper milk, meat and potato - we should sell and let French or German farmer bankrupts, 

but in EU French farmer block roads and get money, German farmer gets without blocking cause Merkel is more patriotic than "our" politicians (rather intendants) 

our farmers get tickets because they produced too much milk, our fishermen were told to wreck boats, 

but we could produce cheaper than you, than you (talking to west) would be unemployed - it there was real free market (who is cheaper wins client) 

real free market economy works different, i know that EU is socialism, but in some branches this socialism is rather colony-like structure "we take from one person, to give to other person" worse when "we take from poor to give to more rich"

[dontknowhow 33]

Please named what countries were colony of Hungary or Poland!

And please name your western country and let me to list your colonies!

Then we can talk about absurdity... Don't deny history!

 

Your original point was interesting, we can talk about differences and the cause of these differences. But this post of you is absurd. So let back to your original!

remember that I'm not just talking about Africa, Asia or anywhere else. I am actually more focused on Europe. Poland for example had a commonwealth with Lithuania which included Belarus, Ukraine, and the Baltic states. And you mentioned Austria-Hungary yourself.

Many countries in Europe had at least one period of expansion within Europe. Some of those who didn't manage to get good results inside of Europe did fairly well outside of Europe, like Portugal and in a way the Netherlands.

 

But I'm starting to see that maybe "colony" should be interpreted here as "colony conquered by buying assets with money". It's a whole different story.

 

I grew up in Italy, now living in the Netherlands. Spent a few years in Germany.

 

And I'm afraid tha meaning of my post stays: talking of western Europe seeing eastern Europe as colonies is absurd. Almost offensive.

[vilas 473]

offensive is when Shultz says about using force

btw joke

president of city Slupsk:

 

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/3/e/3e1d1bb926c5d076b6ecbba9568d45bf.jpg

declared gay, says "my hearth says to welcome them"

 

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/2/b/2bba72fb779377d3d404485dd80ff27b.jpg

meme 2, "i am left wing tollerant, i do not judge people for religion or race, you fucking white christians"

 

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/9/8/985435a4350622b445902769f30c2715.jpg

she is afraid

 

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/2/2/223e1ed8edf10b2d34a1d9386c2a31aa.jpg

hehehe

 

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/c/f/cfa55e22ff63889c306892c52c70b40d.jpg

hehehe 2

 

"colony conquered by buying assets with money".

 

 

problem is that commies who "came with USSR" (precisely - their kids)  sold for penny things abroad, also some big corporations known for corruption scandals participated in it 

in fact as said above, neo-colonialism sucks us dry from money, debt is huge, poverty makes people emigrate (when they emigrate - there are less taxes, less people to work for pensions, future is scary, people hear that in future pension may be very very very low, lower than costs of housing) every Pole older than 35 gets letter from ZUS (state social insurance office, responsible for pensions and benefits) i get letter that IF i will not loose job and work like now, than in 2045 i can have pension like 290 Euro , can you imagine living for 290 Euro per month in 2045 , many people have lower forecast of pension , more than 2 , less than 3 milions work-age Poles left Poland, 6% of total population, maybe 15% of work-age population, because of this colony-like structure, many people who had small shops bankrupted, industry bankrupted, all those highways which foreigner can see when he drive his car - are on credits , part from EU, rest on credit, credit creates debts, debts have to be paid from profit, but where from do profit come ? thats why our former prime minister Tusk is here enemy no 1 for majority of us, he also sold us to get big salary in EU although he was not commie (do not want to repeat long post from previous posts about him)

EU offers big salaries for small country politicians, they do all to serve for that salary, they harm local countries, 

in 2045 if nothing will change on the way, i may be too poor to buy food 

[Tonci87 163]

I completelly understand what you mean by neo colonisation. Evrybody who thinks the EU is a group of equals has no idea. I mean just look at what the EU is about to do to Greece, and has already done. They are going to suck that country dry. The countries profiting the most from beeing in the EU are Germany, France and Britain. They say that they invest the most money into the EU, wich they do, but at the same time they don´t disclose the profits they make.

[bardosy 154]

@dontknowhow: I really like to conversation with you about your original topic (if I understand you correctly: "The different society how and why accept or refuse the current immigration crisis"). But it's hard to discuss if we have no axioms (facts what both of us accept), because without these we just talk without understand the other. I really try to understand what you write, but I can't understand: e.g. you mentioned Austria-Hungary as an example what prove Hungary had colonies. But this is a basic misunderstanding: Hungary was the colony of Austria in that kingdom. If you don't know or can't understand we never own any colony at all, you will not understand why we see enemies in France, Germany, UK and the immigrants in this current crisis.

 

I really respect your multinational personal history. And I think it's very important to everybody to travel and know countries, cultures and understand people from other nations. In my lifetime the internet was the boost, when I could meet people like you and know how they feel, how they think. But I cannot refuse (and will never do refuse) my culture, my history, my nation and the feelings and thoughts what came from this culture. So as I respect you, I demand other people from other culture to respect me and what I think.

[vilas 473]

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Hamburg-moze-rekwirowac-dla-uchodzcow-budynki-gospodarcze,wid,17881637,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=115aec

 

lol, city Hamburg has new law, it will be possible to confiscate property of people to buildings to give them to imigrants, once again in history left wing voted to confiscate property of people to give it to others , guess why europeans cannot defend property like americans can ?

 

http://niezalezna.pl/71448-polowa-uchodzcow-trafi-do-warszawy-i-okolic-ruszyla-urzednicza-machina

 

most of  invaders that Poland will take to be located in my city - Warsaw, worst is they will get flats, for which we apply (my friends applied for such flats and wait in queue, you can guess their mood if they will get refusal decision from city hall cause muslim with 5 kids get it), some of my friends have small kid and still they live with parents in one 50 sq. m flat (5 people in 50 meters) , several cities (city halls) already refused to take even single imigrant 

in some western cities muslims protested against Christmass Tree - that it offends  them, in few cities they managed to ban it/stop it (Kirkedal, Brussels and few others), 

if they would try to organize Sharia Patrol in city, if they would do here the same... i rather not say about effect

[dontknowhow 33]

problem is that commies who "came with USSR" (precisely - their kids)  sold for penny things abroad, also some big corporations known for corruption scandals participated in it 

in fact as said above, neo-colonialism sucks us dry from money, debt is huge, poverty makes people emigrate (when they emigrate - there are less taxes, less people to work for pensions, future is scary, people hear that in future pension may be very very very low, lower than costs of housing) every Pole older than 35 gets letter from ZUS (state social insurance office, responsible for pensions and benefits) i get letter that IF i will not loose job and work like now, than in 2045 i can have pension like 290 Euro , can you imagine living for 290 Euro per month in 2045 , many people have lower forecast of pension , more than 2 , less than 3 milions work-age Poles left Poland, 6% of total population, maybe 15% of work-age population, because of this colony-like structure, many people who had small shops bankrupted, industry bankrupted, all those highways which foreigner can see when he drive his car - are on credits , part from EU, rest on credit, credit creates debts, debts have to be paid from profit, but where from do profit come ? thats why our former prime minister Tusk is here enemy no 1 for majority of us, he also sold us to get big salary in EU although he was not commie (do not want to repeat long post from previous posts about him)

EU offers big salaries for small country politicians, they do all to serve for that salary, they harm local countries, 

in 2045 if nothing will change on the way, i may be too poor to buy food 

 

so my interpretation of colonization was right. As I said, this is a whole different discussion, and much more complex.

Let me just get on the pension problem. This is not just a "colonial" problem, it's worldwide. The simple issue here is that retired people don't work; the literally suck money. It might sound bad, but everyone is ending up there sooner or later, so no offense intended.

So who is going to pay for that? Young people? Is it fair? And what happens when a country has a negative birth rate, which is basically everywhere in the developed world?

So the solution is that you build your own retirement stash. You can do that usually with the government or with your own investments, usually with a fiscal advantage. In the Netherlands there is a minimal pension provided by the government (which you pay for anyway), and for the rest you have pension funds, and obviously you invest your own money. In the US they have these IRA accounts, which you you use to invest money that you will use for your pension.

So, if you don't like your pension, join the club. You are not the only one.

 

I can't get into the merit of this highway story, as I don't know it, but in general money coming from the EU is meant for investments which should have a return, that is, be profitable. A highway, for example, can increase trade, obviously if it's in the right place. If that didn't work out I honestly wouldn't blame any colony thing.

 

By the way: Schulz might have been basically right in that comment, but it could have said it in a better way, instead of sounding like a dictator. I never really liked the guy.

 

 

 

@dontknowhow: I really like to conversation with you about your original topic (if I understand you correctly: "The different society how and why accept or refuse the current immigration crisis"). But it's hard to discuss if we have no axioms (facts what both of us accept), because without these we just talk without understand the other. I really try to understand what you write, but I can't understand: e.g. you mentioned Austria-Hungary as an example what prove Hungary had colonies. But this is a basic misunderstanding: Hungary was the colony of Austria in that kingdom. If you don't know or can't understand we never own any colony at all, you will not understand why we see enemies in France, Germany, UK and the immigrants in this current crisis.

 

I really respect your multinational personal history. And I think it's very important to everybody to travel and know countries, cultures and understand people from other nations. In my lifetime the internet was the boost, when I could meet people like you and know how they feel, how they think. But I cannot refuse (and will never do refuse) my culture, my history, my nation and the feelings and thoughts what came from this culture. So as I respect you, I demand other people from other culture to respect me and what I think.

oh my god, no I really didn't mean to go into the refugee problem. My difference comment was more generic. I see that this colony issue is more related to the current economic situtation than to any actual conquest or dominion, so I'll drop the historical discussion. I might only dare to point out that if there are differences they might come from 50 years of communism rather than any colonization.

Trust me, there are no colonies. The EU is giving quite a bit to the so called colonies. Look for example at the net recipients of the EU money (I'll give you a help with that: Poland and Hungary are two of the biggest recipients in absolute value). If you think you are colonies you can always leave.

 

The truth is maybe not that there are colonies, but that there are stronger countries. And those countries are stronger with a reason: they do things better than others; and they want to push their neighbors to do the same. Many people don't like it, and not just the colonies, but I personally agree with that. I prefer to fight corruption and tax evasion than pumping money into the system.

 

And no one is asking you to refuse your culture; on the contrary (unless you prefer to stay with corruption and tax evasion, in which case sure as hell I don't want your culture). Actually, I live in a place where the national language is slowly being replaced by English, and I don't like it.

Personally I'm fine if a stronger company from another EU member takes over, if it's done fairly; it's one important reason why I like the EU. If that's what you don't like, you either leave the EU or you improve to fight the competition.

 

The refugee story is mostly a separate issue, I'd rather not go into that.

 

 

Man, this colony thing is just so saddening. I'm very disappointed.

[Tonci87 163]

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Hamburg-moze-rekwirowac-dla-uchodzcow-budynki-gospodarcze,wid,17881637,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=115aec

 

lol, city Hamburg has new law, it will be possible to confiscate property of people to buildings to give them to imigrants, once again in history left wing voted to confiscate property of people to give it to others , guess why europeans cannot defend property like americans can ?

 

http://niezalezna.pl/71448-polowa-uchodzcow-trafi-do-warszawy-i-okolic-ruszyla-urzednicza-machina

 

most of  invaders that Poland will take to be located in my city - Warsaw, worst is they will get flats, for which we apply (my friends applied for such flats and wait in queue, you can guess their mood if they will get refusal decision from city hall cause muslim with 5 kids get it), some of my friends have small kid and still they live with parents in one 50 sq. m flat (5 people in 50 meters) , several cities (city halls) already refused to take even single imigrant 

in some western cities muslims protested against Christmass Tree - that it offends  them, in few cities they managed to ban it/stop it (Kirkedal, Brussels and few others), 

if they would try to organize Sharia Patrol in city, if they would do here the same... i rather not say about effect

 

 

And that is again only half of the story Vilas.....

 

 

In Germanys big cities you will often see that many flats are empty, why is that? Companies buy up a large ammount of houses in a district and then raise the rent massively. By keeping most of the flats empty they are able to inflence the rent price in that district.

The new law will force house owners to rent out their flats to the state (nothing is beeing confiscated!) who will in turn let people in need live there. A good law that will combat the rising rents in Germanys big cities.

In short, House owners will not be able to keep their flats empty just to push up the price.

[bardosy 154]

oh my god, no I really didn't mean to go into the refugee problem. My difference comment was more generic. I see that this colony issue is more related to the current economic situtation than to any actual conquest or dominion, so I'll drop the historical discussion.

 

 

If you have problem with word "colony" I can drop it. We can call it colony or any other what you prefer. The problem is the UNFAIR CONNECTION. The EU is not a community as they told, because in a community, members have fair connection. I give you, you give me. I defend you, you defend me. I respect you, you respect me... etc.

 

 

I might only dare to point out that if there are differences they might come from 50 years of communism rather than any colonization.

This is what I told: if you prefer, you can call this unfair relation to "communist and not-to-communism" problem. Vilas and me call it "colony" because it's easier to write down. But the meaning is the same: western countries (UK, US and France) betrayed us and sold us to Soviet-Russia in Yalta-agreement. So Russians force us back to a lower lever life-style. And the western countries used this time to get richer - as you told so.

 

Trust me, there are no colonies. The EU is giving quite a bit to the so called colonies. Look for example at the net recipients of the EU money (I'll give you a help with that: Poland and Hungary are two of the biggest recipients in absolute value). If you think you are colonies you can always leave.

Please, read what I write. I write you to read and it's hard to write my thoughts again and again. I told you earlier: KEEP THE MONEY!!! We don't need money! That EU money what you send us is like glass-bugle and infected blankets to indians. It create much suffer (eg. corruption) then wealth.

So we don't need your money! We need fair partnership and equal rights. If German farmer can buy land in Hungary, then why Hungarian farmer cannot buy land in Germany? If EU pay supportive money to French farmer and it let him to sell their product free or very cheap, why EU don't pay the same supportive money to Polish farmers.

Ruining our economy is not a fair partnership. I know you hate world colony, but it's very similar as rich countries handle their colonies.

I say again: we don't need money. We need equal rights!

 

I have a bad news, we cannot leave EU. Why, because western countries get extra money from ruining our economy. So if we try to quit, EU will punish us economic embargo first time, then military.

 

Personally I'm fine if a stronger company from another EU member takes over, if it's done fairly; it's one important reason why I like the EU. If that's what you don't like, you either leave the EU or you improve to fight the competition.

This is what I was talking about all the times, but you don't listening. IT'S NOT FAIR!

When we join the EU, we were prepare to lost our companies and industry, because we knew, our industry was outdated. It worked, but western companies could produce better product. So we waited for it. And the western companies came and bought our companies for very cheap. And you know what they did? They upgrade our factories and farms? They gave work to the workers? Of course not! They fire everybody, get the stuff what was valuable (machines, licenses... etc) bring it back to their country and shut the rest down. So we just stand here without job, without money and without goods. So the very generous western companies sent here the damaged product, what they cannot sell anywhere.

This is your fair take over. And this is what I call handle us as a colony.

 

And then what happened? Hungarian inventors and capitalists make new factories, create new products what are better then the German one and try to sell it in EU. But Angela stop it and threaten us with economic sanction. Germans get money from EU and give supportive payment to the German competitors, to help them to sell their worst product very cheap. Then Hungarian competitors said: okey, we are EU member too, we need the same supportive payment to keep our business alive. But Brussel say no: you are a young democracy, you need to learn how the big boys do the things....

 

[dontknowhow 33]

Okay, I tried to find some more information related to subsidies and farmers in Poland, but I couldn't find much. What I know is that there are always farmers protesting in Brussels. At the end I think every farmer is complaining.

 

 

If you have problem with word "colony" I can drop it. We can call it colony or any other what you prefer. The problem is the UNFAIR CONNECTION. The EU is not a community as they told, because in a community, members have fair connection. I give you, you give me. I defend you, you defend me. I respect you, you respect me... etc.

I might say that there are always differences; that those differences are a problem in a situation like the one of the past years, but I don't expect unfairness to be a major feature of the union. That's not the way it was intended.

 

 

This is what I told: if you prefer, you can call this unfair relation to "communist and not-to-communism" problem. Vilas and me call it "colony" because it's easier to write down. But the meaning is the same: western countries (UK, US and France) betrayed us and sold us to Soviet-Russia in Yalta-agreement. So Russians force us back to a lower lever life-style. And the western countries used this time to get richer - as you told so.

Wow, never looked at it that way. Betrayal sounds really bad. Is that a common interpretation?

Russians had a major role in the fight against the nazis. They couldn't be just dismissed. I'm not an expert, but I'm sure no one was happy with that at the time. It just had to be like that.

 

 

Please, read what I write. I write you to read and it's hard to write my thoughts again and again. I told you earlier: KEEP THE MONEY!!! We don't need money! That EU money what you send us is like glass-bugle and infected blankets to indians. It create much suffer (eg. corruption) then wealth.

So we don't need your money! We need fair partnership and equal rights. If German farmer can buy land in Hungary, then why Hungarian farmer cannot buy land in Germany? If EU pay supportive money to French farmer and it let him to sell their product free or very cheap, why EU don't pay the same supportive money to Polish farmers.

Ruining our economy is not a fair partnership. I know you hate world colony, but it's very similar as rich countries handle their colonies.

I say again: we don't need money. We need equal rights!

Yes, you did write that. I just had a different feeling. Anyway, it was just a way to say that it's not just unfairness. The EU is not profiting, and doesn't want to.

 

 

western countries get extra money from ruining our economy.

stop it. Just stop it. There is no money to be made from ruining an economy. Nobody wants to ruin an economy, let alone a European economy.

 

 

This is what I was talking about all the times, but you don't listening. IT'S NOT FAIR!

When we join the EU, we were prepare to lost our companies and industry, because we knew, our industry was outdated. It worked, but western companies could produce better product. So we waited for it. And the western companies came and bought our companies for very cheap. And you know what they did? They upgrade our factories and farms? They gave work to the workers? Of course not! They fire everybody, get the stuff what was valuable (machines, licenses... etc) bring it back to their country and shut the rest down. So we just stand here without job, without money and without goods. So the very generous western companies sent here the damaged product, what they cannot sell anywhere.

This is your fair take over. And this is what I call handle us as a colony.

 

And then what happened? Hungarian inventors and capitalists make new factories, create new products what are better then the German one and try to sell it in EU. But Angela stop it and threaten us with economic sanction. Germans get money from EU and give supportive payment to the German competitors, to help them to sell their worst product very cheap. Then Hungarian competitors said: okey, we are EU member too, we need the same supportive payment to keep our business alive. But Brussel say no: you are a young democracy, you need to learn how the big boys do the things....

again, maybe you should give more details.

There have been cases of nationalistic protection in the past, if I can call it that, but that's not the intention. Mergers are a good case. I believe this is changing, but I don't have reliable information.

 

I'm not sure that is what you mean, but I don't think everything is perfect in the EU; if it was we would have a real European government, a European police, a European army (I sooo wish we had that), a European fiscal system.

Part of it is definitely because the EU is just not ready yet, and it will take some time. Part of it is just because the EU sucks. The bureaucratic way they do things just drives me insane. But talking of unfairness for me is a bit too strong.

Colonies have the worse part of it? Could be, but honestly I can't believe it's true, at least not to a significant level. Also, as I said I can't get into the merit, but you are indeed young democracies. What appears as unfair might actually have a reason.

[vilas 473]

 

Is that a common interpretation?

 

i do not know what about history of WW2 and post WW2 is taugh in western schools but:

effect that we fell under communism was because Roosvelt and Churchil signed pact with Stalin about dividing what belongs to USSR and what not

 

also do you read enough accurate:

Polish pilots defended Britain, Battle of Britain,

Third Reich attacked Poland, Polish gold from Polish treasury was put in train to be hidden in west,

but this gold almost disappeared and... rest of this gold was taken by British government as price for... for..

gues ?

FUEL for planes in which our pilots defended Britain

so Polish pilots fought in Battle for Britan and later Britain took our gold as payment for fuel and "usage of airfields" for British Spitfires which fought with Luftwaffe - Poland paid for Battle for Britain, is it not betrial ?

75 tonnes of Polish gold DISAPEARED and noone knows where, but General Sikorski - commander of Polish forces "had accident in Gibraltar", Polish paratroopers trained to help Warsaw uprising but allies decided to drop them to defend British interests while in my city Germans and foreign SS legions (including few muslims) murdered my city

 

that problems in 50s, Stalin terror , we suffered enormous terror from commies,

40% of Stalin NKVD were Jews, in 1968 when commies cleaned countries from stalinists, those Jews escaped to west and ... get there refugee status as "victims of our antisemitsm" and when in 1990 we tried for extradition of some stalin-era criminals , we heard that those people are refugees

 

do you have idea what people suffered in Hungary in 1956 ? there was civil war with USSR in Hungary in 1956,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956

we rioted against communism, in 1956 too, tanks on our streets were driving over people who do not wanted stalin-like communism , in 1970 militia was also shooting to people here, not only in 1980

but 50 and late 40s were the worst

in Poland we had anticomunist uprisings, anticommunist army fighting with commies, till 1947 in Poland we had civil war, WW2 ended but patriots fought with commies, people who wanted capitalism fought,

it was not peacefull after 1945 here, we had civil war, of course not on such scale as WW2, but patriotic underground wanted Poland to be Polish, not communist and USSR satelite

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursed_soldiers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-communist_resistance_in_Poland_%281944%E2%80%9346%29

http://www.doomedsoldiers.com/

 

in 1990 we believed that west wants to help us because we suffered communism

instead of help what we get ?

companies like *** (i do not use name to avoid court) bought our industry for penny, than they deleted competitive production plants (do you know word "foetus overtake" in economy?), other companies bought our indstry cheap and for bribes get state decisions to be free from tax,

so we believed that west will help and we just get enormous unemployment

in 2003, before joining EU and mass migration, in Poland unemployment rate (official) was OVER 20%, before 1989 there was no unemployment at all, work was must in communism,

 

when we joined EU we were told that EU will fund us things, we were told that EU respect national values and soveirgnty,

now we hear about gay marriages, and Shultz threatens us to fund free flats to muslims, while we do not get those flats,

Shultz for his words should face trial and lost job,

 

 

There is no money to be made from ruining an economy

 

bs,

it works following way:

- company X produce 1000 goods , company Y produce 200 goods,

people demand 1200 goods,

but Y belong to state ABC, so X pays bribe to government of ABC and buys Y for 1 dollar, than destroy plant, and X now produce 1200 goods and dictate price

 

- bank system and debt system ? of course it profits from other people ruin, because if you ruin someone's life, he must rebuild, than you offer credit for it,

 

- transfer of income is RUINING other country economy

example

company X sells in country ABC products for 1 bilion dollars

from 1 bilion dollars sell they would have to pay 190 milions tax

so they gave bribe to politician from ABC 10 milion dollars

they are free from tax

they transfer 180 milions abroad, and they are richer for 180 milions, which normally should left in country ABC as TAX and than citizens of ABC would have for it hospital

but now this hospital is build for credit, credit is taken in ... bank which belongs to X

 

ruining economy in one country may bring huge income to other country - because it is like fight with competition,

by:

- destroying competition, having monopolitic position,

- not paying taxes and transfering money to home country (than in home country company builds for it fitness club for their workers, and their workers love them and say "this company is great") but in fact this fitness club is build instead of my hospital

 

i give you stupid example, i do addons, you do addons,

someone ask to do model of tank , he offers 200 euro,

we both can do tank

but you offer to do it for 180, i said 200, he wanted to choose you,

than i break you hand with hammer and... i can do model for 200 cause i can use keyboard, but you have hand broken and you cannot do

 

so is ruining other not helped ?

 

moreover, he was desperated, he needed this tank, i said 220

he paid me 220 but he had only 200, he had to borrow 20 , i borrowed him this 20 , but he must pay me 30 in next month, because i take 10 per month ;)

so you offered to do for 180, i have 230

 

you act like you do not know economy or like colonial economy works

 

similar demographic problems - they tell to give flat to muslims, but they do not tell about giving this flat to me

 

 

There have been cases of nationalistic protection in the past,

 

buaahahahah

so you do not know how French farmers get funds from ocupation of roads ?

and what about EU Comision decision to gave money to German ship building plant instead of Polish ship building flat

German worker earning 2000 Euro need help from EU, but Polish worker earning 500 EU doesn't need ?

 

French farmers protesting against Polish apples on market ?

in free market - if I produce cheaper - you are unemployed and it is your problem, not my

in EU you get refund, for which also i must pay, and i am unemployed because my product is blocked

rhetoric question - if in Poland food is few times cheaper than western one, if Polish worker earns few times less... than if we had free market (price decides) why German , French farmers still have job ? :D

if there would be competition for addon of tank for VBS, you would say 1000 dollars for addon of tank with features, i would say 500,

i get contract not you,

such way works clean honest free market competition

but if for such addon of tank , you would be paid 1000 and i would have to pay tax 100 - to fund you - than sorry, i take rifle (example) and solve issue other way or i leave such business,

thats why more and more people here want to leave EU, they are YET not majority needed to vote of course, they are still minority, but in UK it is said that there is chance that eurosceptics could win in 2016/2017

maybe in Slovakia, Czech republic, who knows

 

you said that what Shultz said was okay, for me ... i do not say due to forum rules ;) lets say for me it is "unforgiven" as what was done with privatization here, our grandfathers fought for other future (current government in 25 days looses position, now they work how to privatize state-forests in last days before they will be dethroned)

[bardosy 154]

The EU is not profiting, and doesn't want to.

 

Yes, EU is not. Because EU is the cover organization of France and Germany. And these countries are profiting. (Of course they do, this is what their citizens want to. But I'm not sure everybody in France and Germany agree with profiting from other countries wealth and ruin their economy)

 

stop it. Just stop it. There is no money to be made from ruining an economy. Nobody wants to ruin an economy, let alone a European economy.

Of course there are way to make profit by ruining other countries economy: I wrote it to you how western companies buy our companies and then ruin them for profit.

And there are other ways too. Just google how George Soros ruined with small far-asian countries by fiscal maneuvers.

 

I'm not sure that is what you mean, but I don't think everything is perfect in the EU; if it was we would have a real European government, a European police, a European army (I sooo wish we had that), a European fiscal system.

Part of it is definitely because the EU is just not ready yet, and it will take some time. Part of it is just because the EU sucks. The bureaucratic way they do things just drives me insane. But talking of unfairness for me is a bit too strong.

Colonies have the worse part of it? Could be, but honestly I can't believe it's true, at least not to a significant level. Also, as I said I can't get into the merit, but you are indeed young democracies. What appears as unfair might actually have a reason.

I know you are not so naive, but I thought this when I was young and naive. So I really believed in this. But not anymore...

[vilas 473]

Just google how George Soros ruined with small far-asian countries by fiscal maneuvers.

 

 

destruction of Polish industry was also plan of Soros, to be exact Soros and Sachs (Joefrey Sachs)

now Soros says "Europe must take at least 1 milion muslims every year:"

 

people like Soros are "NWO", Bilderberg Club etc

they want WW3 , they want colonies and suffer of bilions of people on globe, so they can have profit like "a milion dollars daily"

[bardosy 154]

effect that we fell under communism was because Roosvelt and Churchil signed pact with Stalin about dividing what belongs to USSR and what not

That happened.

 

do you have idea what people suffered in Hungary in 1956 ? there was civil war with USSR in Hungary in 1956,

Actually it was not civil war, but independence war.

And hypocrat western countries - especially UK and France - said a lot of nice thing about freedom and independence, but secretly they met with Russians and made an agreement: France and UK don't intervenie in Hungary and Sovietunion let the UK and France to make shit in Egypt.

 

we rioted against communism, in 1956 too

You were first! Hungarian revolution started with a rally to greet our Polish friends and their demands.