USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[scubaman3D 0]

Lets recap, because the point to this entire conversation has already gotten lost in a myriad of details and bickering.

My initial statement was if "the rest of the world" so much dislikes the US, then why do they take our help?

I said this because several people had brought up some diluted fantasy that Obama will repair the relationship between the US and "the rest of the world", which really means "the opinions of people in foreign countries, who don't vote or pay tax in the US"

So I say, if we are really that bad, why do people insist on our involvement in international matters of crisis and security? If Bush is so bad and the Republicans so corrupt and our motives so selfish, why wouldn't people say "thanks, but no thanks" to our offers of help?

All you see is negative reporting and never a good word about US.

Then the perfect example of this exact behavior was the effort to belittle the contributions we make by snafu and chops. They have said "well the US isn't generous enough". Provided some statistics about a kind generosity index, where the US doesn't come in 1st place. And completely ignored the astounding dollar amount we have given internationally.

Also we were told by snafu that the economy of Europe was improving even without the help from the US after WWII, that Europe wouldn't necessarily have been threatened by communism and the American motivation wasn't pure enough.

So now here you are telling me that I shouldn't try to prove the US is "the best" because of the aid we are giving - but that's not really what I'm trying to do, is it?

My point is that we are looked at as the leader of the west. People line up for handouts and turn around to curse us. Its upsetting.

[-Snafu- 78]

My initial statement was if "the rest of the world" so much dislikes the US, then why do they take our help?

Probably because certain countries are so poor that they will take anything. Limited answer I know but your question was quite broad.

Quote[/b] ]I said this because several people had brought up some diluted fantasy that Obama will repair the relationship between the US and "the rest of the world", which really means "the opinions of people in foreign countries, who don't vote or pay tax in the US"

Freedom of speech. Moreover being the world superpower the US controls a lot of things that affects us so I think 'the rest of the world' is well within their right to criticise.

Quote[/b] ]So I say, if we are really that bad, why do people insist on our involvement in international matters of crisis and security?

The US is the world superpower. Involvement in world affairs is the norm for that role. Whatever country 'takes over' for the US will do the same.

Quote[/b] ]If Bush is so bad and the Republicans so corrupt and our motives so selfish, why wouldn't people say "thanks, but no thanks" to our offers of help?

See first answer. Also what is offered may be in the interests of that specific country.

Quote[/b] ]All you see is negative reporting and never a good word about US.

Well it is a precarious time and I am sure there are some good stuff being said.

Quote[/b] ]Then the perfect example of this exact behavior was the effort to belittle the contributions we make by snafu and chops.

Yes. It's all a big bad Obama sponsored Liberal conspiracy.

In all seriousness. You think your country is an angel? That it would never bend the rules to suit its own agenda? What me and Chops pointed out are actual issues, its not an anti-american campaign. Is this what its come to in the US? If you criticise us you must hate us?

Quote[/b] ]They have said "well the US isn't generous enough". Provided some statistics about a kind generosity index, where the US doesn't come in 1st place. And completely ignored the astounding dollar amount we have given internationally.

You have completely ignored our previous points. The US gives lots but some of it is used in the wrong way ie tied aid. Most developed nations do this or have done this at some point. Aid can also be used to serve an agenda. Some of it's good some of it isn't. Again the amount of aid given is measured by what % of a nations GDP is committed to aid. Some countries are more generous than others. The UK isn't at the top of the list but I don't whine about it.

Quote[/b] ]Also we were told by snafu that the economy of Europe was improving even without the help from the US after WWII

It was. I'll even tell you the book I got it from if you want?

Quote[/b] ]that Europe wouldn't necessarily have been threatened by communism

What I said was that some Historians argue that Europe might have eventually recovered without ERP. At the time Italy and France were the only two that faced a serious communist threat and the ERP stopped that. The effectiveness of the plan is currently being debated amongst Historians.

Quote[/b] ]American motivation wasn't pure enough.

Silly me, no country would ever use something like the ERP to further their own interests.

Quote[/b] ]So now here you are telling me that I shouldn't try to prove the US is "the best" because of the aid we are giving - but that's not really what I'm trying to do, is it?

To be honest I have no idea what you are trying to do. So far you seem to have painted me as a US hater because of some criticism.

Quote[/b] ]My point is that we are looked at as the leader of the west. People line up for handouts and turn around to curse us. Its upsetting.

The US is the world superpower and is expected to 'lead' just like the UK before it. The US, as with other countries including the UK, are doing/have done not-so-nice things to certain countries. Some of the dislike is justified. Some of the dislike isn't justified. Some of the dislike may come from countries not receiving US help and so on and so forth.

[Wolfrug 0]

"Threatened" by communism. Voted for McCarthy much? That aside, Finland is an excellent example of a country which went entirely without the Marshal plan, yet managed to pull through a remarkable transformation from a mainly agriculture-based economy to a modern industrial nation, all the while paying its "war debt" to the USSR.

But hey, I'm not a historian, so I don't know anything about these things. I shall leave you with an appropriate comic: XKCD

Regards,

Wolfrug

[scubaman3D 0]

Well it is a precarious time and I am sure there are some good stuff being said.

But definitely not by you.

You prefer to belittle our contributions and focus only the negative attributes.

At lease I am reasonable enough to acknowledge that we're not perfect, but I've seen enough of the world to know we're a hell of a whole lot better than most other places out there.

[NoRailgunner 0]

...we're a hell of a whole lot better than most other places out there.

Thats a kind of national pride which exist in most countries around the world. But who really judges which country is the "best"? There must be at least one "axis of evil" in the world.

Nice little tv debate in 2006:

Recession Risk

[scubaman3D 0]

Unfortunately in the world, perception is reality.

But your perception can be changed by experience.

Thats why I said I've seen enough to know...

My wife, from Russia, had no idea how bad she had it there until she moved here.

[-Snafu- 78]

Well it is a precarious time and I am sure there are some good stuff being said.

But definitely not by you.

You prefer to belittle our contributions and focus only the negative attributes.

At lease I am reasonable enough to acknowledge that we're not perfect, but I've seen enough of the world to know we're a hell of a whole lot better than most other places out there.

See these:

(on US aid)

Quote[/b] ]Some of it's good

Quote[/b] ]At the time Italy and France were the only two that faced a serious communist threat and the ERP stopped that.

Quote[/b] ]Some of the dislike isn't justified.

From page 207:

Quote[/b] ]I just came back from Boston a few days ago, did all the tourist things, mostly friendly people...I loved Boston and all the other places in the US I have been.

Originally you said:

Quote[/b] ]Last year, alone, we paid out ~ $21,197,000,000 in aid dollars. Nearly twice as much as next country on the chart I saw.

It seemed to me you were being a bit unfair here. Belittling other countries especially those who give a larger % of their GDP towards aid and presenting the US as an 'angel'. I pointed out the GDP part and the fact that while the US do give aid for pure reasons it is not always the case. And went on to say that this applies to other countries.

Quote[/b] ]At lease I am reasonable enough to acknowledge that we're not perfect

Nobody is perfect. But instead of saying, 'hey this guy might have a point' you went on to portray me as a US hater.

[scubaman3D 0]

So are you saying I'm just over reacting to your criticism and you're actually more US-friendly than I am interpreting your statements?

Boy, that would be something - if this whole argument was just me thinking you were being over critical, but you really weren't.

[froggyluv 2136]

I have a couple imo 'extreme liberals' as siblings who never cease to amaze me with their 'America Bashing' as if it's the most evil, Machiavellion empire to ever plague the world

On the other hand there are blind Nationalists who will readily accept whatever is spoon-fed them by the powers that be and are threatened with unpatriotic slander as 'Un-American' no matter what the situation may warrant.

The last 8 years have definitely left me wondering as far as International policy and a pre-emptive, unilateral military mindset, exactly what direction America seems to be headed. I don't like it and am ready for a change.

[scubaman3D 0]

Well you should vote for Obama.

He stands for change too.

http://radioactiveliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/obama-change.png

[froggyluv 2136]

Well you should vote for Obama.

He stands for change too.

http://radioactiveliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/obama-change.png

Your encouragement finally pushed me over the edge to the Obama camp

Thanks for the 'tip'  

[scubaman3D 0]

[Panda-PL- 0]

I love it how now Snafu is trying to say it was Scubaman who tried to bellitle all the other countries.

I, for one, didn't feel my country is being belittleled.

This brings up the next issue: national pride.

Mine doesn't hurt when I look across the ocean.

Many europeans sin with national pride, your discussion of Marshall Plan was silly: the East Germany is still catching up to the West Germany!

And when will we get a standardised EU history textbook? Like about that how nearly all countries in Europe had collaborative goverments while uinder occupation.

People are so proud of their WW2 history they don't even want to know it.

I'd estimate 90% of what avarage US citizen is proud of is true, that's very high compared to some european countries whose citizens are sometimes proud of silly things like remaining neutral or saving their cultural heritage durring WW2.

The question he asked was 100% valid: what would make YOU like USA.

And please answer with sollutions, and not copy-paste some nice speech with lots of nice generalities.

Imagine you are the president and have majority in congress. They come to you and ask what you wanna do and you need to be specific.

On a sidenote: I suspect "Spokesperson budget" ran out, he's being silent lately...;)

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'd estimate 90% of what avarage US citizen is proud of is true

Like what ?

The extermination of the native americans ?

The right to bear arms ?

The vietnam war ?

The iraq war ?

The headless chicken reaction after 9/11

The racial separation long long after WW2 had ended ?

The history of slavery ?

The enormous pollution they produce ?

What is it that they are proud of exactly ? I was always wondering about that. They are on the decline very fast atm and the status superpower will be lost soon if they keep going like they do. That is present day USA. Infrastructure that is outdated to say at last, a medical system that is not worth the name, bigottary religious fanatics no better than islamist fundamentalists and the willingness to eat every truth they got told without even thinking about.

The democratic beacon of freedom ? They got 2 parties only for christs sake. That´s a very simplistic system if you ask me and as we have seen over the last weeks money is all that counts, not the people, not even the the people who call themselves native US citizens. I´m sorry, what the hell are they proud of ?

Waving a flag or having a flag on your coffin once you died for the lies of your president and government ? That´s it ?

National pride imo is something for people who have little in their own lifes to be proud of. That´s why they switch to national pride. It´s a substitute for their own missing pride.

Imo I can only be proud of things that I have done. I only happened to be born in germany. That´s nothing to be proud of imo. It´s fortune and luck but certainly nothing I can be proud of as I haven´t done anything to achieve this.

The US are specialists in reversal history-writing. Creationists anyone ?

[gsleighter 0]

We could start with the obvious ones, like the fact you still live in a country free of fascism or communism, Balschoiw.

American citizens can be her harshest critics without fear of prosecution and imprisonment, or turning up dead after disappearing with the police.

News media independent of the state.

Freedom of speech.

Freedom of the press.

The Ramones!

Rock and Roll

Jazz

Film

National Geographic Magazine

Peanut Butter

Nuclear Power

The Internet

Personal firearms ownership.

Computers.

Making an aircraft carrier out of sawdust.

Planes

Cars

Cotton Gin

Artificial Heart

Most medical advances

Napster and P2P file sharing

That whole WW2 thing

South Korea

Taiwan

Hip Hop

Daisy Dukes cutoff shorts

Assembly line

Going to the moon

Space exploration and technology

M.A.S.H.

Alec Baldwin

Tex-Mex food

The Telephone

The Gatling gun/Machine Gun

Clint Eastwood

Apple Pie.

There's a couple. Look, I'm by no means the Flag-Waving Ugly American type, but the fact that Scubaman and I can be from the same country, and have such wildly different views on things and yet we still all get along okay is kind of awesome. Yeah, America's got problems. Germany's got problems. Journalists and critics disappear in Russia. The food sucks in the UK. The French are kind of snooty about being French. Italians could learn a few things about a safe road network. The whole of Eastern Europe is still recovering from half a decade of communist rule. But hey, there's good things to be said about all these countries, and there's nothing wrong with being proud of where you're from, as long as you don't use it as a reason to rationalize denigrating other people or places, or use it as an excuse not to think critically. And most Americans think critically, despite what you may think.

[scubaman3D 0]

Like what ?

Yeah, this is really lame B.

I'm sure I could drum up an equally crappy list of thing your country has regretted.

[MehMan 0]

News media independent of the state.

Freedom of speech.

Freedom of the press.

Well now, some, but most definatley not most. There are rare ones that you catch a glimpse, but mainstream are definatley not independent.

Freedom of speech is a very subjective thing.

Quote[/b] ]Peanut Butter

Delicious stuff. Did you know that it was invented by a doctor to give patients without teeth or bad teeth their badly needed protein? And no, I didn't look it up in wikipedia.

Quote[/b] ]Personal firearms ownership.

Why is this a good thing?

Quote[/b] ]Most medical advances

now now. it all counts as what you call an advance. and in what age. etc etc. it's really not worth competing here though, and taking credit, as any advance is usually for the good of all.

Quote[/b] ]Making an aircraft carrier out of sawdust.

Sweet, sounds like the british plans to make an aircraft carrier out of ice and something.

Quote[/b] ]Daisy Dukes cutoff shorts

And thank you for that.

Quote[/b] ]Apple Pie.

You should try some christams pudding. Not only because it's pudding but because of all the booze in it. It's made with tons of brandy and then on christmas it's covered in brandy and set on fire.

Quote[/b] ]Film

Explain.

[froggyluv 2136]

Oh no, I hope this doesn't degenerate into an US vs. The World thread    

And gsleighter, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for not putting Chuck Norris on that list.

[-Snafu- 78]

@ Oct. 02 2008,08:38)]I love it how now Snafu is trying to say it was Scubaman who tried to bellitle all the other countries.

I, for one, didn't feel my country is being belittleled.

This brings up the next issue: national pride.

Mine doesn't hurt when I look across the ocean.

Many europeans sin with national pride, your discussion of Marshall Plan was silly: the East Germany is still catching up to the West Germany!

And when will we get a standardised EU history textbook? Like about that how nearly all countries in Europe had collaborative goverments while uinder occupation.

People are so proud of their WW2 history they don't even want to know it.

I'd estimate 90% of what avarage US citizen is proud of is true, that's very high compared to some european countries whose citizens are sometimes proud of silly things like remaining neutral or saving their cultural heritage durring WW2.

The question he asked was 100% valid: what would make YOU like USA.

And please answer with sollutions, and not copy-paste some nice speech with lots of nice generalities.

Imagine you are the president and have majority in congress. They come to you and ask what you wanna do and you need to be specific.

On a sidenote: I suspect "Spokesperson budget" ran out, he's being silent lately...;)

This is bloody ridiculous!

Quote[/b] ]Last year, alone, we paid out ~ $21,197,000,000 in aid dollars. Nearly twice as much as next country on the chart I saw.

This ignores the fact that aid is measured on how much % of a nations GDP is committed to it! Some other nations give a higher amount of their GDP as aid making them more 'generous'. This is fact. Not a lie. Not an anti US campaign. As I pointed out before aid can be used as a 'weapon' and in a way to benefit the donor nation. This is/has been done by most if not all developed nations.

Quote[/b] ]I, for one, didn't feel my country is being belittleled.

Other people may feel differently though. I didn't feel belittled either. But he ignored the fact that it's measured by % of a nations GDP putting the aid situation out of context (not all countries have the financial capabilities of the US). I am not portraying the US as evil. Just because they give less of their GDP as aid does not make them bad. By and large their aid donations do good.

Just because of pointing this stuff out I am treated as 'Anti-American'. Yeah, I guess that's why I have been to the US for my vacation the past three years. I have family there FFS!

[scubaman3D 0]

Just because of pointing this stuff out I am treated as 'Anti-American'. Yeah, I guess that's why I have been to the US for my vacation the past three years. I have family there FFS!

Hey congratulations, let me shake your hand. Your one of an enumerable amount of people who has come to the US as a tourist.

I've been on vacation to Turkey and Russia, among others, and I know my country is a better place to live than those.

Again, you're being over critical by belittling the role the US has played in improving the conditions for a good portion of the world, post WWII until present day. I'm sure your country could have defeated Germany and the USSR without our intervention    x2

[-Snafu- 78]

Just because of pointing this stuff out I am treated as 'Anti-American'. Yeah, I guess that's why I have been to the US for my vacation the past three years. I have family there FFS!

Hey congratulations, let me shake your hand. Your one of an enumerable amount of people who has come to the US as a tourist.

I've been on vacation to Turkey and Russia, among others, and I know my country is a better place to live than those.

Again, you're being over critical by belittling the role the US has played in improving the conditions for a good portion of the world, post WWII until present day. I'm sure your country could have defeated Germany and the USSR without our intervention    x2

*sigh*

The reason I mentioned the fact that I went there is because I don't hate it as you assumed.

Quote[/b] ]I know my country is a better place to live than those.

Good. Other people think other countries are better for different reasons, depending on their situation of course.

Quote[/b] ]Again, you're being over critical by belittling the role the US has played in improving the conditions for a good portion of the world, post WWII until present day.

Because I said you don't give as big as % of your GDP as aid compared to other countries? Because European economies had begun to recover before the ERP (which sped it up)?

These are facts. The truth. It's not being over critical and I pointed out that they do give a lot of aid that by and large does do good. You are making mountains out of mole hills.

Quote[/b] ]I'm sure your country could have defeated Germany without our intervention    x2

Did I say that? No. Changing the argument, nice try. You are reading into things that are not there.

You are not even debating anymore. Just trolling.

[gsleighter 0]

"Personal firearms ownership.

Why is this a good thing?"

Choice is always a good thing. It's not mandatory to own a weapon as a US citizen, but it should never be illegal. We're independent because we took up arms against Britain. If WW3 breaks out and China, Venezuela, Cuba, or any other country invades any part of the US, they're going to have a hell of a time dealing with our partisans. I know a lot of people point to gun ownership and crime as being connected, but if the government fought poverty and the failing education system here as aggressively as it fights drugs, crime would decrease.

To illustrate, crime is increasing in America, but gun ownership has been declining over the last several decades. As of 2006, gun ownership was at about 34 percent by household, compared to 22 percent in 1996 in Canada.

some sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada

http://www.vpc.org/studies/gunownership.pdf

"Sweet, sounds like the british plans to make an aircraft carrier out of ice and something."

Same carrier, ice and sawdust. It was a joint allied plan carried out by the US in a lake in Canada, and was partially built, taking years to melt.

"Film.

Explain."

Hollywood, motion picture cameras, talkies, all from the USA.

@Froggyluv

I was only putting things I'm proud of as an American.

Here are some other sites with information about the US national debt and foreign aid, since the topics kept coming up, with no cited sources or other info for observers of this thread.

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm

http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm

[sparks50 0]

I'm pretty tired of how mainstream America hating has become over here.

Its like something that is said by people with no knowledge or interest in politics whatsoever, they just have this attitude because its "cool". Ill be glad when this trend is over.

Micheal Moore(never mind Iraq, heres the real producer of anti America attitude in Europe) is shown in childrens schools, our mainstream media is hellbent on showing a image of everyone not sympathizing with Obama are doing so solely because of hes color of skin, our prime minister arent visiting Bush because he knows he will be hit hard at home if that were to happen etc.

Its usually very simple to argument against America haters though, since their double standards are very obvious.

I'm hoping McCain wins this election, if nothing else so I can laugh in their faces

[froggyluv 2136]

Well i just watched the VP debates and Gov. Palin managed to sound a "shout out" out to someone... A "shout out"...

   

This was a debate for the Vice-Presidency of the United States and she acted like she just won American Idol. We're only a few years away from Idiocracy people.

[scubaman3D 0]

haha, she seriously said that?

Ok, I'm honestly disappointed.