Gunmen take 200+ student hostages

[denoir 0]

Just saw the news.. 200+ dead Awful, just awful.

[USSRsniper 0]

Just saw the news.. 200+ dead Awful, just awful.

this is what called terrorism.....

[Pathy 0]

Yeh it really is just shocking.....that kid so traumatized he couldnt even remember his own name, lots of kids covered in (dried) blood being carried away by soldiers.......

[bn880 5]

Just saw the news.. 200+ dead Awful, just awful.

this is what called terrorism.....

Yeah no kidding, taking hostages like that makes it a terrorist action. End of story.

This is basically the meaning of terrorism.

anyway, the outcome is worse than expected, no doubt

[ebns72 0]

omg

Hopefully this is a turning point in anti-terrorism, maybe UN could develop a real-life rainbow 6...that would actually be quite useful...to prevent things like this from happening

those SOBs are going to pay for this, preferably in blood...but then again, that would probaly cause more things ilke this to happen

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't. I watch news programs on all channels and i read news in the internet, i read newspapers and i visit this forum. Though some members seem to be more biased than Russian people with their biased media.

Good for you ,now you think i believe my media much? I read a lot about the Chechen conflict ,i don't say i know it all ,but i think to some point i know what i'm talking about.

Quote[/b] ]How do you think, is your media giving you an unbiased point of view on what's happening in Chechnya?

Well thats just the problem really ,outside media isn't even allowed in Chechnia ,so it's hard to get any news from what is happening out there.Why isn't media allowed there? Maybe Russia has something to hide?

 

Quote[/b] ]There are no unbiased news agencies so if you want the truth go enlist Russian army and ask them to send you to Chechnya. I don't support our government on this issue (war in Chechnya) but sometimes i hear such BS statements from foreign news agencies that it makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time.

There is just now way of really knowing whats happening out there as free media is just not allowed to get there.

Quote[/b] ]Then you say that you support the freedom fighters but you don't support terrorism. These freedom fighters kill Russian 18 year old conscripts who had no wish to fight in Chechnya.

War is war ,those conscripts will shoot rebels as they are ordered to.They are send there by the Russian goverment ,the responsibility for them lies as such with the Russian goverment.And they are not all conscripts ,Russian soldiers don't earn much and for them it's a nice way to earn something extra ,many go for the extra income.

Quote[/b] ] Damn, it's so easy to sit there behind the computer and try to look unbiased by posting such things as you do. Like Russians had been killing Chechens for years and it hadn't caused such an outcry like this situation in Beslan did. In fact you're wrong and every news agency did and does blame Russians for this war.

Indeed many do for obvious reasons ,and i have the right to say my oppinion whether you find it biased or not ,but clearly many westeners will agree on the notion that Russia is responsible for a large part for the atrocity's in the Chechen wars.But they arn't very well docuumented ,the outcry is mainly there because the result is so visibly ,namely for ex. Grozny is in ruins ,even if you havn't witnessed the carnage first hand it isn't hard to draw conclusions as what an lenghty artillery siege on such a city with such results will have done on the civilian poppulation.The witness reports are there to ,from many refugee's now living in europe ,or the hard facts that 75% of Grozny's citizins have lost a direct relative.And another thing ,youre just sitting behind youre computer making remarks to.

Quote[/b] ]But all normal people support Russians in this situation in Beslan.

And i do not support any of the factions involved ,but i feel bad for the children.I must be not normal?

Anyway ,say what you want ,but such attacks will continue because of the past Chechen wars ,i got to feel symphaty for the russians anytime such an attack happens but Putin doesn't want to give in an inch to not loose face?He could have prevented all this by not innitiating the 2nd chechen war ,COLD FACT !

Quote[/b] ] You're saying you don't justify their actions but then you easily discuss symantics saying those hostage-takers can't really be called terrorists. You're playing with fire

The term "terrorist" has been turned around ,inside out and upside down a zillion time's to fit the agenda of multiple country's facing seperatism movements ,because they know that after 9/11 they can easily use this term to stamp the justification of those movements into the ground and give their actions international justification ,to the point of rediculousness really ,if a seperatist gunman shoots an enemy soldier these days he is considerd a terrorist ,while thats pure conventional warfare ,and deffinatly any for of verticval warfare is to easily labelled terroris ,while at many cases it's guerilla warfare.And you have to take into acount my nuancations ,as long as they were taking people puraly as hostage's they wern't terrorists ,but when they started blewing up hostage's they were terrorists ,but shooting on fleeing hostages is by definition not a terrorist act ,in a pure hostage situation shooting hostage's that try to flee is normal as iff you wouldn't it would defeat the purpose of taking hostages (all hostages would see that they can just go away) ,but if youre blowing up hostages withought having to under such circumstances that is terrorism by certain definitions.

Quote[/b] ]Apollo, looks like you have no idea what words separatism and terrorism mean. I had time to sure in it. Please take a look into the explanatory dictionary. May be you'll not going to post such a strange posts here anymore. Or, perhaps, it's result of first-class brain washing campaign.

Do not make interpretations of what i seem to understand ,in discussion i find such remarks offensive and unconstructive.

NOONE knows the definition of terrorism ,after 9/11 university's all over the world have hard times to find a good definnition of the term terrorism as it has been misused all over the world.Because at many times the the term is used in conflicting curcumstances.

For ex. ,was the nuclear bombing of Nagasaki or Hiroshima terrorism? Or the allied bombings on Dresden for ex. in WWII?

And youre brain washing remark is clearly offensive ,you don't have to patronize me ,i do not do such thing's onto you.  

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]He could have prevented all this by not innitiating the 2nd chechen war ,COLD FACT !

I think you should really study closely the events which took place before the 2nd incursion to Chechnya before making such claims.   Your so called cold facts...since when has historical what-if been COLD FACT?

Quote[/b] ]nuclear bombing of Nagasaki or Hiroshima terrorism? Or the allied bombings on Dresden for ex. in WWII?

Definately not terrorism. One could call them war crimes, but in these cases the perpetrators might claim they aimed for 'industrial and military resources' rest is called 'collateral damage'. Anyway it was a totally different thing.

But band of fanatical gunmen slaughtering children in school for political-religious purpose is nothing more than pure terrorism.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think you should really study closely the events which took place before the 2nd incursion to Chechnya before making such claims.  

The terrorist act's by the group around Shamil Basayev like the Moskou bombing and the Dagestan invasion was in no means an act of the whole Chechen seperatist movement.It's not because certain individuals commit terrorist acts that you can blame a whole people for it.Or should we invade Saudi Arabia because most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi Arabians led buy A Saudi Arabian?

When terrorist actions happen upon youre people you have to punish those that are responsible ,but not those that are not responsible ,the Chechen people in general were not responsible.

Like i noted ,Shamil Basayev's grouping stands apart from the regular rebels led by Aslan Maskhadov ,Maskhadov wasn't even aware of the plans of Basayev that led to those attacks and to say more ,individuals from within the group of Basayev have tried to assasinate Maskhadov.Maskhadov hates terrorists and Wahabism and cracks down on it ,probably because he understands that the actions of Basayev undermine's his own justification fr his seperatist movement and it's reputation abroad.Maskhadov's fighters are nationalist seperatists ,Basayev's men are wahabi fantaical muslim's that see al non-Wahabi's as infidels (just like Osama Bin laden) that as thus must be killed or reformed to true Wahabi's.

However Basayev's group could have easily been taken on seperatly and been isolated ,heck if you hadn't fought the second chechen war the Chechen Nationalsists may have helped russia in that.But due to the 2nd Chechen war Basayev has enough fuel in manpower from people that lost everything in that war to keep the movement going.

[Blake 0]

Chechnyans had their chance for independence in 1996-99. They blew it by making terror attacks and making incursions to neighbouring republics. Now that I would call a cold fact.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Chechnyans had their chance for independence in 1996-99. They blew it by making terror attacks and making incursions to neighbouring republics.

Do i have to repeat what i said above?Those attacks were the responsabilety of the group around Shamil Basayev and BY NO MEANS the rsponsibilety of the regular nationalist Chechen seperatist movement!

It's wrong to blame the whole Chechen people for the attacks of certain individuals that wern't connected with the Chechen nationalist movement anymore ,Basayev never informed the Chechen goverment at that time of his actions.

And i clealy made a valid comparison to Saudi Arabia ,the 9/11 terror attacks were commited and organized mainly by Saudi Arabian idividuals ,by no means a reason to blame the Saudi Arabian goverment for that.

The Chechen goverment at that time hated as much the Wahabist fundamentalist like the Saudi goverment are hating those today.

Besides ,Russia never recognized the chechen independance ,and they tried everything they could in 1996 to stamp the rebellion into the ground ,if Yeltsins campaign wouldn't have failed then that short lived independance would have never happened.

Quote[/b] ]Definately not terrorism. One could call them war crimes, but in these cases the perpetrators might claim they aimed for 'industrial and military resources' rest is called 'collateral damage'. Anyway it was a totally different thing.

You call the diliberate killing of 100.000's of civilians "collateral dammage"   Or do you think that the US goverment couldn't presume that those nuke's wouldn't kill that much civilians?

They nuked those places to drasticly increase japan's war-weariness ,in many cases this is the goal of modern terrorism ,to frighthen nations out of a war.

[Chill 0]

Easy solution to this killing, russia get out of Chechniya!!

Russia invades Chechniya kills many innocent people, Chechniyans get angry dont have army, so what do they do?

Resort to selfdefence.

Usa invades Iraq kills innocent people, Iraqi's get angry dont have a army any more, so what do they do? Resort to selfdefence.

These people are desperate people who have been given no choice because of the imperialist actions of both Russia & usa.

[ericz 0]

Quote[/b] ]Quote  

Definately not terrorism. One could call them war crimes, but in these cases the perpetrators might claim they aimed for 'industrial and military resources' rest is called 'collateral damage'. Anyway it was a totally different thing.

You call the diliberate killing of 100.000's of civilians "collateral dammage"     Or do you think that the US goverment couldn't presume that those nuke's wouldn't kill that much civilians?

They nuked those places to drasticly increase japan's war-weariness ,in many cases this is the goal of modern terrorism ,to frighthen nations out of a war.

Terrorism is generally accepted to be the unlawful use of or threat of violence in order to make a political or idealogical statement. Generally by unofficial or illegitimate groups.

War on the scale of WWII is a total war of sorts under which the inventory of targets included industrial and manufacturing centers and their attendant structures.  Lets not forget that in WWII the fate of several nations and tens of millions were on the line.  Hardly comparable in scope or context to the conflict in Chechnya or any other current conflict for that matter. If the drastic actions of atomics had not been used the war would have gone on longer and cost milliions more lives.  Sadly the hundreds of thousands that died in Nagasaki and Hiroshima were a smaller price to pay than what would have resulted from a fight for the island of Japan.

With the current conflicts we have the luxury of debating the finer points and legalities of war and conflict.

The kind of  hatred that seems to permeate both sides of this conflict was created through cruel and personal actions by one side on the other.  One thing is to shoot an enemy combatant and kill him, it is altogether a different thing to kill him and cut his genitals off and stick them in his mouth for his comrades or his people to see.  Yet these are the types of actions that have been carried out by both sides.

As to what constitutes an innocent in a battlefield, that is open for debate.  Did the mothers, sisters, cousins provide food and shelter for their sons, husbands, fathers fighting the Russians.  Did they lie to hide their whereabouts?  Did they hide arms and munitions for them?  Where their younger children put to rec the Russian soldier positions for later ambush?  All these things may to some signal a change in status from non-combatant to combatant. Afterall these actions contribute to the death of Russian soldiers and to thwarting the policies of the government.

[ericz 0]

Quote[/b] ]Usa invades Iraq kills innocent people, Iraqi's get angry dont have a army any more, so what do they do? Resort to selfdefence.

A very simplistic view and wholly inaccurate. Kindly save these comments for another thread such as the Iraq War  thread as it has no place here, and even there it might be considered flamebait.

[Gadger 0]

Hi,

Sorry I don't have the time to read through 15 odd pages, so sorry if it has already been brought up, but there was something that was repeated by the achorman/woman, many times on Sky News. Made me think:

Quote[/b] ]This kind of incident could only happen in a democracy

Very politically incorrect, but maybe true?  

Thoughts and feelings go out to all those caught up in this barbaric act of terrorism and torture.

ps. I've been away from the TV for the last several hours, have the terrorists involved been linked to the middle east and/or Georgia?

[NKVD 0]

Quote[/b] ]Chechnyans had their chance for independence in 1996-99. They blew it by making terror attacks and making incursions to neighbouring republics.

Do i have to repeat what i said above?Those attacks were the responsabilety of the group around Shamil Basayev and BY NO MEANS the rsponsibilety of the regular nationalist Chechen seperatist movement!

yes, Shamil Basaev but you forgot the most important fact - so it means you just didn't read everything about this conflict..

After making rebels leave the Dagestan in 99, Russian government asked Aslan Maskhadov, the president of Chechnya, for cooperation with finding those rebels (which returned back to chechnya after defeat in Dagestan) and prosecuting them...So guess what ? - did not happen, Maskhadov refused to do so and not only that, he did not allow russian forces to proceed. This way russians had to do that themselves..

I mean, some gangs to to neighboring country - kill ppl there and then let them get away with that ? Unless you're a wuss - you won' let them get away.

Beside the point and all of that Chechnya conflict, what kind of parasite should a human be to take hostage children ? I mean, most of them were not older than 14..wtf is that ? That's the way allah fighters fight for their cause ? allah can suck my...censored..and those terrorist scum bags..

[killagee 0]

Previous to this disgrace there were those who had a sympathetic ear to the Chechen Cause. It will be very hard for them to find friends now. Same will happen to the Palestinians and ETA etc. Many of these movements originally had massive moral highground and a justification of support. Now that has gone. If the leaders of the political/peaceful sections of these organisations know what is good for them, they will reign in the Criminal elements that plague them.

I think you will see a massive loss in faith in russian special forces and crisis management.

" another typically russian catastrophe..." heard that on BBC world today...

[ozanzac 0]

The images of those bloodied and lifeless children that I saw on the TV last night, put a dark and heavy cloud over my heart.

[Shashman 0]

I cried when they showed a big tough Russian soldier, holding the lifeless body of a little girl in his arms, crying with the child's parents...

Deliberately attacking a noncombatant especially women and children is evil and there is no mandate nor religion that can justify it. I hope that the Russian people come together in righteous outrage, say fuck world opinion, and hunt every last one of the people who planned, funded, and enacted, this heinous act down and kills them all.

In the words of General Hawley USAF Ret.

Quote[/b] ]Violence only leads to more violence.

This one is so stupid you usually have to be the president of an Ivy League university to say it. Here's the truth, which you know in your heads and hearts already: Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp, panicky, half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete, fully thought-through, professional, well-executed violence never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all dead. That's right, dead. Not "on trial," not "reeducated," not "nurtured back into the bosom of love." Dead. D-E --Well, you get the idea.

I'm hoping the Russians don't consider due process or world opinion to any degree.

[Tovarish 0]

I couldn't believe some of the editorial comments on CBC about this...for example they suggested there is believable evidence that Putin ordered the 1999 appartment bombings

And then there were the yahoos claiming that the reason that Chechens believe these tactics will actually help their cause and end the war is that they are so completely isolated from the outside world by Russia....yes sure, that's why half of these bastards were reportedly from arab countries. The real isolation is self imposed by those bent on imposing a Taliban like state.

My girlfriend had a pretty good suggestion on what to do with the bodies of these bastards, bury them in the sewer systems so they are being shat and pissed upon for all eternity

[badlymad 0]

It is very tragic that the hostage situation had to end like this, but it seems that you could blame both sides for the result: You could blame the chechens for perpatrating these attacks and killing innocents, but you could blame the Russians for their lack of restraint in dealing with the Chechens and corruption that leads to attacks deep in Russia .

Also, the Russian government must revamp their hostage rescue tactics. In all the mass hostage situations they've been involved in, hundreds of people (mostly civilians) have died because the Security forces haven't planned their operations properly and botched up the rescue attempt. To be fair, most of these situations have involved well trained and fanatical terrorists and hundreds of hostages in a short amount of time, but the Russians could still try to adapt and learn something from their previous failures.

EDIT: An interesting article about the situation

Quote[/b] ]Beslan Hostage Crisis Resolution: A Tactical Failure?

September 03, 2004

Sources in the Russian security community say they believe the Russian government made a mistake by not storming the school Chechen militants seized in Beslan, North Ossetia, as early as possible in the hostage crisis. They add that some special forces units, always on standby in Grozny, Vladikavkaz and Mozdok -- all within approximately 30 miles and only a short flight away -- could have been quickly deployed. The sources said that if Russian forces had moved in early, there likely would have been fewer casualties. The militants would not have had time to wire explosives throughout the school, and they would have immediately been put on the defensive, fighting against the attacking forces. Instead, the militants were able to achieve their goal of killing many of the several hundred hostages.

Essentially, the Russian government misread the militants. Until the last moment, the government believed the militant plan was to mimic the situation in Budyonnovsk in 1995, when militants seized a hospital and took its occupants hostage. In that case, the government negotiated the attackers' safe passage into mountainous Chechen hideouts, accompanied by some of the hostages for protection.

Because of its view of the militants' motives in Beslan, the government plan was to save hostages by gaining time through negotiation -- perhaps even securing the release of some militants imprisoned by the Russian government -- and persuading the militants to follow the pattern set in 1995. Security sources said the government plan in Beslan was to follow the terrorists until the departure of the last hostages, then to destroy them by air strikes or otherwise.

It is becoming clear that the militants in Beslan had different plans from the militants in Budyonnovsk. The initial interrogation of a captured militant -- and the result of the attack -- shows the attackers never planned to hold any serious negotiations. They planned to capture hostages, mine the entire school building, then begin killing the hostages and escape in the ensuing panic. The goal behind the attacks was to plant fear in the Russians and kill as many people as possible, score a victory with a high death toll and escape to continue their attacks. Overall, the militants' strategic goal -- and the goal of the whole current campaign of attacks -- is to increase the scale and magnitude of the attacks, attempting to exhaust the Russian people to the point of moral and physical defeat.

The militants were left with ample time to heavily mine all the places in the school where they planned to detain the hostages, according to sources. They also made professional and scrupulous preparations for their attack, even going so far as to have spare civilian clothes to change into before escaping in the panic. To preclude any resistance from hostages, the militants executed about 15 men, including two captured police guards who were protecting the school. Also, the militants tortured people by not allowing them to eat or drink and by ordering them to undress.

The militant group's leaders divided the fighters into three groups: One group was meant to escape; the second group was meant to cover the first's escape by firefight; and the final group of militants was meant to die in achieving its ultimate goal of killing as many hostages as possible.

The hostage-takers took their chances while government forces reclaimed the corpses of those killed earlier in the crisis, according to security sources. The militants detonated two bombs within the school in an attempt to collapse the roof upon the hostages -- which it did. The hostages who survived immediately panicked and fled for under direct fire from a number of militants. Other militants mixed in with the fleeing hostages, and later with the hostages' relatives -- showing that Russian forces allowing relatives near the scene was another mistake. Several of the militants are believed to have escaped.

Simultaneously, other militants began detonating MON-100 and MON-200 anti-infantry mines within the gymnasium, and at least one female suicide bomber detonated her explosive charge among some adult male hostages. One militant tactical group was primarily responsible for engaging Russian forces, which fired upon the militants after realizing that the fleeing hostages were taking fire.

Sources said a gunfight ensued in which Russian special forces commanders ordered a breach operation; at least two holes were blown in the walls to allow hostages to escape. There was no coordinated plan in place to tactically assault the building, but some special forces units entered the building while others began to rescue the hostages; two Russian security agents were killed while shielding a group of first-graders from machine gun fire. It was not a coordinated action, and no contingency plan for what to do if the militants began executing hostages had been agreed upon. Sources reported that time was lost at this point, as confusion and lack of coordination hindered rescue and interdiction efforts.

Immediately after the breach operation, several militants successfully broke through the Russian security perimeter -- very similar to what happened in a hostage situation in Pervomayskaya in 1996.

While some militants ran for safety, others sought cover in nearby buildings and the school basement. Russian security engaged these attackers in firefights, some of which lasted a few hours. Simultaneously, Russian special forces conducted room-to-room searches for remaining hostages. The area was cleared of mines at the same time, with soldiers under fire from militants.

Russian officials estimate there were some 30 militants involved in the operation, 20 of whom were killed in the assault. Of the dead, Stratfor has learned half of them were Arabs and at least one was an African. Also, Ossetian locals reportedly killed one militant who attempted to flee the scene. Four of the militants are in Russian custody, and five remain at large; search operations are ongoing.

It is impossible to obtain and accurate count of the number of Russian security casualties at this point because the forces came from 10 different agencies. The estimated number of hostages held is between 1,000 and 1,200 (original estimates were lower to lessen the potential impact of the incident). It is also difficult to assess the number of hostages killed, but estimates are between 150 and 230, with far more wounded.

[Akira 0]

My girlfriend had a pretty good suggestion on what to do with the bodies of these bastards, bury them in the sewer systems so they are being shat and pissed upon for all eternity

Or if they are indeed Islamic....bury them with some good ol' pig parts...

I hear they don't like that too much (though I wouldn't mind layin' in a coffin that smells like bacon for all eternity).

[shinRaiden 0]

I think Walker's time line is spoton, which means that this is just further evidence that terrorism is taking a significant militant shift.

Everyone was expecting a repeat of the theater, and so were the terrorists, as evidenced by the hostage management and fixed placement of the bombs, and the dogs. If they conduct future attacks with similar planning (god forbid), I think the gas option will become a one-time thing of the past.

The other issue is the accelerated timeline being pressed. Terrorists used to have tons of patience, and still do when money is involved. But if they're whacked enough to seize a school, I doubt they're going to be open to any sort of negoiation, or even total caving.

Rather, I think the outcome that came is along the lines that they intended all along. There was a quote I saw once from Yitzak Shamir about dealing with the palestinians. Asked what the Israeli response would be if the Palestinians tried mano-a-mano army to army in 'conventional' war, he responded instantly that there "would not even be a memory left of them". In the process, he acknowledged that the terrorists tactic of targeting civilians precluded 'military' action, leaving the situation as an ongoing police debacle.

I don't know of any historical precedent for this kind of school hijacking, but this is an atrocious precedent, and will almost certainly be seen again, as long as there is nutz in the world, whether from Chechnya or elsewhere.

As to the situation with the delay again in medical evac, I presume that the reason was twofold:

1 - Nobody expected it to escalate this fast, although I would have thought that the psyops people would have had a clue that the terrorists might be a bit edgy and sleep-dep.

2 - Because of the political relationship with chechnya, and the firepower invovled, this was a military operation. The military, especially spec.for., is not trained to handle mass civilian trauma, their job is to inflict it. Conversely, civie paramedics aren't trained to handle live fire situations.

We had a case here a month ago in Seattle where a bum killed a guy with a golf club, and the firefighters saw the whole thing, but they don't get intervention training. The basic rule is that nobody moves in until the area is secure, so tough. If the area is not secure, nobody gets out.

But the biggest lesson from this and the Imam Ali mosque and the guys who killed Paul Johnson is Folk's, control your your perimeter! I know I don't have the military background, but at least have the police or somebody wall off the place. Those who survive and get away live to fight another day, and they learn from their mistakes. Don't give them that liberty.

The pictures on the AP wire are absolutely apaling. God willing, the Chechen people turn those guys out on their ears, but I fear the attitude will only be "well, they had it coming." I suppose that we'll only have news of further carnage in the area in the weeks to come.

[philcommando 0]

THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION IN KILLING CHILDREN AND INNOCENT CIVILIANS, NO MATTER WHAT THE PROVOCATION!!!

CALLING TERRORIST AS TERRORIST IS BEING TOO KIND TO THEM! THEY ARE F*KING BEASTS!!!!!!!!!!!

[Foxtrot87 0]

Quote[/b] ]now you think i believe my media much? I read a lot about the Chechen conflict ,i don't say i know it all ,but i think to some point i know what i'm talking about.

You know something about Chechen conflict but it all ends in justifying actions of rebels. When it comes to actions of Russian forces you seem to have a strong point of view that all of them were wrong, that they were not justified but you don't really know the details, you just take out some action from the middle of the conflict and criticize it.

Quote[/b] ]ell thats just the problem really ,outside media isn't even allowed in Chechnia ,so it's hard to get any news from what is happening out there.Why isn't media allowed there? Maybe Russia has something to hide?

Yeah, traces of UFO.

Quote[/b] ]War is war

Yes, that's why Grozny is in ruins and there are civilian casualties. I've said multiple times in different threads that i don't support war with Chechnya because innocent people die (Chechens, Russians, etc).

Quote[/b] ]and i have the right to say my oppinion whether you find it biased or not

No one takes this right away from you (except for moderators    ).

Quote[/b] ]And i do not support any of the factions involved ,but i feel bad for the children.I must be not normal?

Interesting, if you feel bad for children why don't you support those forces that tried to free them?

Quote[/b] ]And you have to take into acount my nuancations ,as long as they were taking people puraly as hostage's they wern't terrorists ,but when they started blewing up hostage's they were terrorists ,but shooting on fleeing hostages is by definition not a terrorist act ,in a pure hostage situation shooting hostage's that try to flee is normal as iff you wouldn't it would defeat the purpose of taking hostages (all hostages would see that they can just go away) ,but if youre blowing up hostages withought having to under such circumstances that is terrorism by certain definitions.

That's an interesting sentence. I just don't know how to comment on this statement. When i said that it was easy sitting behind the computer and writing such things as above i meant that you should visit Beslan and start discussing with the parents of those kids why those terrorists can't be called terrorists for shooting children in the back, etc etc.

I'm tired of this pointless discussion.

Some news: there are still booby traps in the school and that's why not all bodies have been taken out.

[Antichrist 0]

There are reports that more than 400 hostages could've been killed.

We definitely need someone like Stalin at the moment! He had a way of dealing with those kind of bastards...