Us presidential election 2004

[ralphwiggum 6]

I was posting his statement and he has right to respond. I see you think Swift folks are apart of the Bush "team". I guess you follow anything Kerry says without any proof.

so you admit that you are a Bush troll? So far you've been beleiving that Swfit folks are telling the truth. Maybe I can form a group called 'Pilots of National Guard' and claim that Bush was AWOL most of the time?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]like Sen. McCain? the one who is now branded as a traitor?

You mean McCain who is appearing with Bush during some of the campaign rallies.

Quote[/b] ]"My problems are not with the American people," says Iraqi soccer coach Adnan Hamad. "They are with what America has done in Iraq: destroy everything. The American army has killed so many people in Iraq.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]like Sen. McCain? the one who is now branded as a traitor?

You mean McCain who is appearing with Bush during some of the campaign rallies.

Just like Ron Reagan I guess. When he appeared in DNC, guess what his brother said?

McCain loves GOP, but GOP uses him. Remember the good onld time when he was pushing for campaign finance reform? GOP had some nice things to say about him.

Quote[/b] ]"My problems are not with the American people," says Iraqi soccer coach Adnan Hamad. "They are with what America has done in Iraq: destroy everything. The American army has killed so many people in Iraq.

Read 'Help me understand something' thread. basically same line of thought.

[Schoeler 0]

Quote[/b] ]I can tell you two things about your willingness to accept this statement:

1)You never served in the Navy

and

2)You'll believe anything the Bush people tell you even in the face of obvious contradictory evidence.

I was posting his statement and he has right to respond. I see you think Swift folks are apart of the Bush "team". I guess you follow anything Kerry says without any proof.

No, I don't believe everything the Kerry people tell me, but I do believe the media when published investigations in the Washington Post, the New York Times, the L.A. Times, Time Magazine, Newsweek, MSNBC, CNN and a hell of a lot of other news outlets show that the Swift Boat Vets Ads are less than honest and have connections to the Bush Campaign.

The problem is that the President stepped on his own pecker during this one by refusing to condemn the ads (which Rove it seems controlled in the background) and now the whole world is going to find that out.

You Bush people are starting to sound shrill and pathetic in your sheep-like bleating for your precious lying President. This is the point where his campaign gets exposed and starts unraveling and you know it so you bleat all the more loudly. Where there is smoke, there is fire and your barn is starting to burn.

Bah, baaaah, BAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

It's not going to get you the votes in November.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]so you admit that you are a Bush troll? So far you've been beleiving that Swfit folks are telling the truth.

No, I'm not a bush troll... At least they got Kerry admit that his christmas story in Cambodia did not happened. Kerry is using his vietnam record as an centerpiece for his campaign and now he wants a "vietnam fight" with Bush. Totally against what he said in 1992:

Quote[/b] ]“I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst possible way… What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be re-fighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a presidential primary.â€

But, hey, bush is a republican. Like I have said before, military records should not become a major point of your campaign.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Miller, who supported Bush's tax cuts and has consistently voted with the Republican Senate majority against his own party, will speak on Wednesday Sept. 1, the third night of the New York convention, said Ed Gillespie, chairman of the Republican National Committee (news - web sites).

And that doesn't make him a Republican how? If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck....

I can say whatever I want to say I am. Actions speak louder.

Quote[/b] ]I was posting his statement and he has right to respond. I see you think Swift folks are apart of the Bush "team". I guess you follow anything Kerry says without any proof.

How are they not? The claim to be non-partisan, but see nothing about Bush's dodging of Vietnam. In fact they say nothing about Bush, only negativity about Kerry. That is partisan. The fact they are bashing the VietNam vet, and not the dodger, and the fact that they are headed by a well known anti-Kerry person, makes them EXTREMELY partisan.

Quote[/b] ]I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate protection and comfort to the injured crew.

Bullshit. You don't get the Bronze star for helping a sinking boat, when there is absolutely no enemy fire. You don't get the bronze star for doing what the fuck you are suppose to do. This just shows he is an idiot as well as a lying ass.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]so you admit that you are a Bush troll? So far you've been beleiving that Swfit folks are telling the truth.

No, I'm not a bush troll... At least they got Kerry admit that his christmas story in Cambodia did not happened. Kerry is using his vietnam record as an centerpiece for his campaign and now he wants a "vietnam fight" with Bush. Totally against what he said in 1992:

Quote[/b] ]“I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst possible way… What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be re-fighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a presidential primary.â€

But, hey, bush is a republican. Like have said before, military records should not become a major point of your campaign.

Given that teh country was thrust into a war by someone who's never been to war, under false pretenses and after lying extensively to the public...

I think military records, and leadership become a very large issue.

And Bush brought this on himself when he got dressed up like an idiot and landed on a carrier like he was GI Joe or something.

[ralphwiggum 6]

But, hey, bush is a republican. Like have said before, military records should not become a major point of your campaign.

because he already knows that his record is not as outstanding as Kerry's? maybe that's why it was the last time they aired campaign with Bush in pilot seat after his record became a debate.

So what's centerpiece of Bush's campaign?

Economics? not looking good.

War in Iraq? read last post, still going on

War in Afghanistan? still going on, OBL is still not captured.

compared to what Bush said 4 yrs ago(stay out of international arena) I say Kerry has slightly better memory.

Quote[/b] ]I see he[George Bush] is getting some of his own.

-Barbarah Bush, after Jenna Bush made headlines for underage alcohol purchase.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Read 'Help me understand something' thread. basically same line of thought.

I found it weird... nothing more

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....olitics

Old but....

Quote[/b] ]Soon after, White House spokesman Scott McClellan declined to do so and instead criticized the financing of the ad, saying the president "deplores all the unregulated soft-money activity." McClellan said the Bush campaign had nothing to do with the ad or the group behind it. "We have not and we will not question Kerry's service in Vietnam," he said. McClellan used the opportunity to call on Kerry to join Bush in demanding that all soft-money groups quit running ads.The overwhelming majority of such ads have targeted Bush, often harshly. Kerry campaign spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said Kerry will not ask the groups to stop their advertising.

Ban soft money groups coming from the TBA....no way. Where is your outrage when wealthy folks that love dems (Soros and supports Kerry) pay a lot of the ads that attack Bush.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPol....8a.html

Quote[/b] ]

Wealthy Donors Help Liberal 527 Groups Amass Huge Money Advantage

By Robert B. Bluey

CNSNews.com Staff Writer

June 28, 2004

(CNSNews.com) - Only one of the top 25 donors to political 527 groups has given to a conservative organization, shedding further light on the huge disparity between Democrats and Republicans in this new fund-raising area.

The top three 527 donors so far in the 2004 election cycle - Hollywood producer Steven Bing, Progressive Corp. chairman Peter Lewis and financier George Soros - have combined to give nearly $24 million to prominent liberal groups. They include the Joint Victory Campaign 2004, America Coming Together and MoveOn.org.

According to the Center for Responsive Politics, which tracks 527 data, liberal organizations have amassed nearly $80 million in donations compared to a mere $8 million for their conservative counterparts. Groups are categorized as 527s for the section of tax code that regulates them.

The liberal-leaning groups' big advantage is expected to benefit Democrat presidential candidate John Kerry, according to campaign finance watchdogs. Even though the 527 groups are prohibited by law from consulting with the Kerry campaign or Democratic National Committee, they can air television ads supporting him and criticizing President Bush.

"You can certainly say that 527 groups, dominated by Democrats, are going to help even the financial playing field between Bush and Kerry," said Steven Weiss, spokesman for the Center for Responsive Politics.

Bush, for instance, has raised far more "hard money" donations than Kerry. At the end of May, the most recent reporting period, Bush had raised a total of $218 million, a presidential record. Kerry, meanwhile, has set a record for his own party by raising $148.5 million. When all Democrat primary candidates are factored in, the total stands at $322 million.

The one conservative donor to make the 527 list, New York stockbroker Richard Gilder, was 20th among the top 25. Gilder gave $425,000 to the Club for Growth, a 527 group dedicated to limited government and lower taxes that was founded in 1999.

Unlike some of the liberal 527 groups, the Club for Growth existed before the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform law was enacted in 2002. That law restricted unlimited "soft money" contributions to the national parties, prompting Democrats to seek other fund-raising methods.

The Club for Growth's executive director, David Keating, said Republicans shied away from giving to 527 groups fearing they were illegal. It took the Federal Election Commission until May 13 to issue a ruling on 527s, and by that time Republican-leaning groups lagged far behind.

"The Republicans have been beating a drum that giving money to 527 groups to run advertisements that mention the name of any presidential candidate is illegal," Keating said. "I think they're wrong about that, but they've beat that drum long and hard enough that probably a lot of the donors, who might have otherwise given, don't [give] because they don't think they can."

Donors who have given to Republicans or conservative causes in the past told CNSNews.com they had little interest to support 527s in this election cycle.

"It is not effective use of money for Bush. It may have some benefit for Kerry, but I'd suggest it's probably limited," said Richard Collins, a Texas businessman who serves as chairman of the Dallas Entrepreneurial Political Action Committee.

"Conservative donors are not particularly energized that the 527s on the left are going to be able to impact this election," he added.

Collins said the money would be better spent by local or state parties for voter registration and get-out-the-vote initiatives.

Another Republican donor, retired Nevada businessman Walter Casey, blamed the 2002 campaign finance law for the proliferation of 527 groups. Even though Casey said he probably wouldn't give to Republican 527s, he was surprised by the disparity.

"The Republicans haven't responded to this as I thought they might in getting their own people set up [with] money that can be used to fight the liberals," Casey said. "You would think they would take advantage of that, set up their own 527s and try and compete on that level."

Two of the most prominent conservative 527 groups, the Leadership Forum and Progress for America, are relatively new. Casey speculated that Democrats had 527s in mind when the campaign finance law was enacted, and therefore, wasted little time getting them up and running.

"It may be too late to really do anything," Casey said of the Republican 527s. "It takes a while to put something like that together. Then you've got to find somebody who will give you the money."

Despite their huge advantage with 527s, liberals are still racing to raise more money, if only to counter what Bush has been able to bring in to his own campaign. Soros, their most outspoken contributor, has pledged another $5 million for America Coming Together, the left's primary get-out-the-vote initiative.

"We've always known that the Republican Party will be very well financed," said Sarah Leonard, spokeswoman for America Coming Together. "Whether their dollars are going to the Bush-Cheney campaign, the RNC or 527s, they won't have any problem taking in enough money."

But it's not as if Republicans lack options in terms of placing their donations, said Steve Weissman, associate director for policy at the Campaign Finance Institute.

He noted that conservatives have groups like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and Americans for Tax Reform, which are afforded more leeway in the political arena than other non-profits because of their IRS classification.

"Republicans felt that they already had an efficient mechanism," Weissman said. "Why go for bigger things?"

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]Soon after, White House spokesman Scott McClellan declined to do so and instead criticized the financing of the ad, saying the president "deplores all the unregulated soft-money activity." McClellan said the Bush campaign had nothing to do with the ad or the group behind it. "We have not and we will not question Kerry's service in Vietnam," he said. McClellan used the opportunity to call on Kerry to join Bush in demanding that all soft-money groups quit running ads.The overwhelming majority of such ads have targeted Bush, often harshly. Kerry campaign spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said Kerry will not ask the groups to stop their advertising.

Ban soft money groups coming from the TBA....no way. Were is your outrage when wealthy folks that love dems (Soros and supports Kerry) pay a lot of the ads that attack Bush.

funny. then why is Bush's softmoney ads still running? they never stopped to begin with, and McClellan's words were political ploy to begin with. You think Dems are putting gun to his head and make them continue running the ad? maybe Swfties need to listen to McClellan first instead of barking.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]funny. then why is Bush's softmoney ads still running? they never stopped to begin with, and McClellan's words were political ploy to begin with. You think Dems are putting gun to his head and make them continue running the ad? maybe Swfties need to listen to McClellan first instead of barking.

Funny. Just on fox news, on a taped interview, O'Neill admitted that if his groups hurts the TBA, tough luck.

O'Neill has been waiting 30 years to get Kerry and TBA is not going to stop. Bush does not control that group.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]funny. then why is Bush's softmoney ads still running? they never stopped to begin with, and McClellan's words were political ploy to begin with. You think Dems are putting gun to his head and make them continue running the ad? maybe Swfties need to listen to McClellan first instead of barking.

Funny. Just on fox news, on a taped interview, O'Neill admitted that if his groups hurts the TBA, tough luck.

O'Neill has been waiting 30 years to get Kerry and TBA is not going to stop. Bush does not control that group.

then how can Kerry control his 'softmoney group'? Want Kerry to put a M16 to Soros's head?

It just shows that the Whitehouse KNEW there is no way to control softmoney ads and is only talking rhetoric when they called for curbing it.

furthermore, there you go. with their own words, they admitted that "O'Neill has been waiting 30 years to get Kerry and TBA is not going to stop. Bush does not control that group."

He has an axe to grind. He is not thinkin about Kerry and how fit he will be a president, but how much he can harass Kerry. And I won't be surprised if such fanatic would not mind lying about how he is not affiliated with Bush.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]furthermore, there you go. with their own words, they admitted that "O'Neill has been waiting 30 years to get Kerry and TBA is not going to stop. Bush does not control that group."

Those are my words (that is why I put the space   ) but the tough luck is O'Neill's

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]It just shows that the Whitehouse KNEW there is no way to control softmoney ads and is only talking rhetoric when they called for curbing it.

So, do you think it wrong for Kerry to accuse the Bush team that they are controlling that group.

[pandalefou 0]

i'm not living in america but it would be nice if bush will president again.

yes i know he are a little moron but he clean the world

[walker 0]

Hi all

What is interesting at the moment is that George Bush Junior's speculator buddies bet that the price of Oil would reach 50 dollars a barrel. They stand to make big bucks if it reaches that price and the thing that drives up the speculated price is the instability in the world created by George Bush Junior's war in Iraq

The price is not a real reflection of supply, like the ENRON power chrisis that ripped off Californians it is a big con. The price that would reflect current supply is arround 30 dollars.

George Bush Junior recieved millions for his 2000 election campaign from the corrupt NeoConMen of ENRON many of whom were his personal friends like Keneth Lay. The new NeoConMan con is the over inflated oil price. Those same oil billionaires are the supporters and friends of George Bush Junior and TBA; speculator NeoConMen who are contributing millions to the George Bush Junior camapaign and soft money supporters of George Bush Junior. The kind that make fairy tale stories for those who believe they just bought some clothes that are invisable to dumb people.

Just like ENRON did to Californians when they conned them out of billions in a fake energy chrisis; those speculators are ripping off the US citizens at the gas pump with their fake oil shortage.

As soon as it reaches 50 the bubble will burst. Anyone in Oil futures needs to get out now. Get out before it reaches 50 dollars or you will be the one left holding the declineing value oil futures stocks.

Quote[/b] ]Oil surpasses $48 on Iraq violence

LONDON, England -- Oil prices have climbed to another peak on renewed violence in Najaf, Iraq and new signs of strong demand in China and India as their economies expand.

U.S. light crude reached a new high of $48.20 a barrel Thursday.

The New York Mercantile Exchange contract has set record levels in all but one of the past 15 trading sessions.

In London, Brent crude was trading at $43.70 a barrel, up from Wednesday's close of $43.03.

Fierce fighting raged Thursday in Najaf as rebel Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr defied an Iraqi government threat to attack his stronghold in a holy shrine and rejected demands that he end his uprising.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/08/19/oil.price/index.html

If your in oil get out now the bubble is about to burst.

Kind Regards Walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

Geoge Bush Junior is going to issue the U.S. Strategic Petroleum Reserve stocks now. Do not buy oil the price is about to drop. If you have Oil Stocks get out now

Quote[/b] ]A bubble in crude?

Leanan writes: A minority of analysts thinks oil prices are too high by half and could tumble abruptly.

With the price of oil hitting records nearly every day, a handful of analysts think the market is starting look awfully bubbly, and that the price could correct quicky.

Thursday brought yet another record in the price of a barrel of crude oil, which fetched about $48 on the New York Mercantile Exchange. It was only a couple of weeks ago that analysts were making bold projections of $50 oil. Now there's talk of it breaking $60.

Oil has skyrocketed some 55 percent in the past year, and a small number of analysts believe that most, if not all, of that gain has been unjustified.

"We continue to believe oil prices will fall hard," Bear Stearns analyst Frederick Leuffer wrote in a note to clients this week. "We forecast an average ... oil price of $25 per barrel in 2005."

Not long ago, that was a consensus forecast. Now it's in the distinct minority.

Most analysts now believe higher prices are justified, citing higher-than expected demand for oil in the world, tight supplies, a higher risk of terror attacks and a growing difficulty in sucking a dwindling supply of oil out of the ground.

Leuffer isn't buying it. In his note, he makes a step-by-step case about why he believes the consensus is wrong.

Yes, global demand is high, he wrote, but it's being exceeded by supply. The evidence is in inventories, which continue to grow around the world, including the United States. The current level of global inventory, about 300 million barrels, is consistent with oil at about $25 per barrel, according to Bear Stearns' research.

"Since January 2004, the correlation between crude oil prices and inventory levels has broken down," Leuffer wrote.

Fear about tight production capacity is also unjustified, he wrote. The Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), which accounts for about 40 percent of the world's oil output, has some 2.1 million barrels per day of excess production capacity, according to Leuffer's estimates, on top of the 2.7 million per day it's already generating in excess of demand.

What's more, non-OPEC supply is higher than ever, and he thinks oil companies are having an easier time getting oil out of the ground than is widely believed.

Leuffer also said that terror attacks and sabotage likely won't cause much of a disruption of the world's oil supply; they haven't in the past.

The troubles of Yukos, Russia's largest oil company, won't affect supply because the Russian government won't allow it, he said -- Russia needs the cash that Yukos' oil generates.

A few other analysts agree with his view that the oil market has begun to bear a striking resemblance to the bubbly tech-stock market of the late 1990s.

"Rumors and speculation have taken over the market," Oppenheimer analyst Fadel Gheit told CNN/Money this week.

Not so sanguine

But most analysts do not.

They agree that there is a hefty "fear premium" built into the price of oil, keeping the price perhaps $10 or more higher than where supply and demand would indicate.

But they don't believe the market can simply afford to remove that premium.

Terror attacks and sabotage could cause significant disruption, depending on where they take place, and traders have to get some insurance for that possibility.

"In a perfect world, you'd take the premium out, and you're looking at an oil price in the lower- to mid-30s," said Bruce Lanni, an analyst with A.G. Edwards & Sons. "But it is not a perfect world."

Most analysts aren't as certain as Leuffer is about OPEC's ability to pump much more oil, or the ease of finding new oil supplies.

Nor do they believe that world inventories are high enough to keep up with skyrocketing demand, particularly in fast-growing markets such as China and India.

"If you take a look at the supply/demand fundamentals in the world, there's not a lot of excess supply available or much coming on line," said Jacques Rousseau, an analyst with Friedman Billings Ramsey.

Meanwhile, after ratcheting up their capacity to suck more oil out of the ground in the 1970s and 1980s, oil companies haven't kept accelerating their capacity growth in recent years, according to George Gaspar, an analyst at Robert W. Baird & Co.

"I don't think the industry has the capacity to expand much beyond the rate at which it's expanding now," Gaspar said. "When you match a relatively constrained capacity to expand against the increasing growth rate of demand for crude oil, it sets the potential course for oil to ultimately go beyond $50 a barrel."

http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/19/markets/bubble_crude/index.htm

Kind Regards Walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

It apears real criminals go free under George Bush Junior. Much the same as Dodgy Dick Cheney cronies in Halliburton have let off for their ever increasing overcharging and conning of the US tax payer and Uncle Sam's Soldiers.

We still have not seen one of the real criminals of Abu Ghraib put on trial. This includes the aledged child molestor who is accused raping a young boy. This is because the aledged pedaphile worked for one of George Bush Junior's Contract companies. The ones George Bush Junior gave a get out of jail free card because he had his friend Attorney General John Ashcroft's  justice department says it was OK to go torturing people.

Quote[/b] ]Witness to Abuse Trying to Be Heard

Interrogators Responsible, Ex-Soldier Says

HAGERSTOWN, Md. -- In his 33 years, Ken Davis has had two big chances to change history. The first was 10 years ago in the District, when a man standing next to him started shooting at the White House. The second was last year in Iraq, when he saw naked Iraqi prisoners on the floor, screaming.

Subduing the gunman was easy compared with what the former reservist for the 372nd Military Police Company is trying to do now: persuade the Army that it was military intelligence and other intelligence operatives, not the seven soldiers charged, directing the abuse in Abu Ghraib prison.

He's gone to Army superiors, three members of Congress and two reporters with his story. No one from military intelligence has been charged -- just the seven from the 372nd.

Davis said he has no illusions about what happened. He agreed that the alleged abuses by his fellow soldiers, documented in sickening detail in hundreds of photos, were "morally wrong." He also conceded that his own state of mind became so twisted by the horrors of war that he, too, might have abused prisoners had he had the opportunity.

But the point, he said, is that those charged didn't act alone.

"It seems they want to sacrifice seven soldiers for the sins of everyone," he said. "Whoever led them down that path is a culprit as well."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17135-2004Aug19.html

The stink of Abu Ghraib goes right up the Chain of Command all the way to the top. The man who gave the aledged kiddie fidlers their get of jail free card; George Bush Junior.

Walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

Proof that the Abu Ghraib torture scandal points up the chain of command is comming from a leaked report in to new Allegations and criminal investigations.

Quote[/b] ]Abu Ghraib Probe Points to Top Brass

An Army investigation into the role of military intelligence personnel in the abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison reports that the scandal was not just caused by a small circle of rogue military police soldiers but resulted from failures of leadership rising to the highest levels of the U.S. command in Iraq, senior defense officials said.

The officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the report has not yet been completed, said the 9,000-page document says that a combination of leadership failings, confounding policies, lack of discipline and absolute confusion at the prison led to the abuse. It widens the scope of culpability from seven MPs who have been charged with abuse to include nearly 20 low-ranking soldiers who could face criminal prosecution in military courts. No Army officers, however, are expected to face criminal charges.

Officials also said that the report implicates five civilian contractors in the abuse, and that Army officials plan to recommend that their cases be sent to the Justice Department for possible prosecution in civilian courts.

The investigation, shepherded by Maj. Gen. George R. Fay, is one of several into the abuse, which became widely known after hundreds of photographs surfaced depicting detainees in mock sexual positions, in a naked human pyramid and being intimidated by unmuzzled dogs. While the Pentagon and the White House have consistently blamed the abuse on what they have called a rogue band of MPs acting on their own, officials said this new report spreads the blame and points to widespread problems at the prison.

The findings, elements of which were reported by other news organizations, appear to support contentions by defense attorneys for the charged MPs that the problems at the prison were pervasive and were exacerbated by a lack of leadership. The lawyers have asserted that their clients were acting on orders when they stripped detainees and kept them awake using stress positions and humiliating poses. Officials said the Fay report will stop short of saying that soldiers were ordered to abuse detainees.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17092-2004Aug19.html

Five Groups all came up with the same plan

The fact that the probe now points to five separate groups at the prison were colluding in the torture of the prisoners is indicative that the orders came down the chain of command.

The Five groups are:

1) The MPs and soldiers who guarded the prison.

2) The Military Intelligence about to be charged.

3) The doctors who according to The Lancet were

Quote[/b] ]"The U.S. military medical system failed to protect detainees' human rights, sometimes collaborated with interrogators or abusive guards, and failed to properly report injuries or deaths caused by beatings," Steven H. Miles of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Minnesota wrote in the issue published today.

Miles based his assertions on the findings of Army investigators, the translated testimony of detainees and news reports. He noted that a psychiatrist helped "design, approve and monitor interrogations at Abu Ghraib"; that a physician permitted an untrained guard to stitch a cut on a prisoner's face; and that doctors "routinely attributed detainee deaths on death certificates to . . . natural causes" when the deaths were the result of torture.

He also said that inspectors from the International Committee of the Red Cross found inadequate medical records on detainees and that monthly "health inspections," required by the Geneva Conventions, were not always done.

4) The Civilian Security Operatives yet to be investigated.

5) The Civilian Contractors yet to be investigated.

How do seperate branches in the millitary all come up with same plan independantly?

The key factor here people is that all those are seperate chains of command until you get realy high up.

Kind Regards Walker

[billybob2002 0]

Now I know why Kerry is mad...

http://www.judicialwatch.org/3794.shtml

Quote[/b] ]

Judicial Watch Calls For Investigation Into Kerry’s Medals, Anti-War Actions

Formal Complaint Filed Over Senator’s Vietnam Awards, Post-Service Activities

(Washington, D.C.) – Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, today filed a request with the U.S. Navy and the Defense Department for an investigation into the awards granted to Sen. John Kerry during his service with the U.S. Navy in Vietnam.  Judicial Watch also requested that military authorities investigate Kerry’s anti-war activities, including his meeting with North Vietnamese and Viet Cong delegations in Paris, while a member of the Naval Reserve.

Basing its requests on a recently published book, Unfit for Command, by former Navy officer John E. O’Neill and Jerome R. Corsi, Ph.D, and on news media interviews of other officers and sailors who served with Kerry, Judicial Watch notes that unresolved allegations against Kerry include: false official reports and statements; dishonorable conduct; aiding the enemy; dereliction of duty; misuse and abuse of U.S. government equipment and property; war crimes; and multiple violations of U.S. Navy regulations and directives, the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the U.S. Code.

Kerry was awarded three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star for “wounds†received and actions in Vietnam, but eyewitnesses refute his version of a number of the events that were the basis for receiving the commendations.  Judicial Watch is asking the Department of Defense and the U.S. Navy, including its Department Board of Decorations and Medals, to look into the circumstances surrounding Kerry’s awards.

Judicial Watch also is requesting an investigation of Kerry’s anti-war activities.  After he was released from active duty but while he was a commissioned officer in the inactive Naval Reserve, Kerry joined the anti-war group Vietnam Veterans Against the War and traveled to Paris to meet with delegations from North Vietnam and the Communist Viet Cong.  He held a press conference in Washington, D.C., following the meeting and advocated the “peace proposal,†which included war damage reparations, put forth by the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong.

“The allegations concerning Kerry’s conduct during the Vietnam War are credible, serious and shocking,†said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.  “The sooner an investigation begins, the better.â€

I guess the Bush team controls them, too....

[bmgarcangel 0]

You know the funny thing about this thing, i believe its all a politcal lie. I don't believe this group is telling the truth, because if they were telling the truth, then why the hell wouldn't they talk about it way before now? Eh?? Its stupid, not to mention the combat report made up at the end when they got back to base well, it wasn't written by Kerry so guess what? This story this Newly Founded veterans group is giving out is most likely another one of those fakes.

~Bmg

Combat-Ready Moderator

[walker 0]

I guess the Bush team controls them, too....

Hi billybob2002

Quote[/b] ]Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton, a well known conservative activist.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/cases.shtml

An examination of the case list shows them to excusivley anti Democrat. Previous to this their last cases were against the Clinton administration and Gore.

If you are going to quote sources try to find ones that less biased or are not full of fairy tales.

We are not all so silly on this site as to be fooled by such simple fairy tales as you seem to be billybob2002.

Kind Regards Walker

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]An examination of the case list shows them to excusivley anti Democrat previous to this their last cases were against the Clinton administration and gore.

If you are going to quote sources try to find ones that less biased are not full of fairy tales.

We are not so silly on this site as to be fooled by such stupidity.

Kind Regards Walker

What are you talking about, Walker? They did file a formal request with the U.S. Navy and the Defense Department. So, they do not like democrats that much and this makes them a "front" for the bush team...

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]You know the funny thing about this thing, i believe its all a politcal lie.  I don't believe this group is telling the truth, because if they were telling the truth, then why the hell wouldn't they talk about it way before now?  Eh??  Its stupid, not to mention the combat report made up at the end when they got back to base well, it wasn't written by Kerry so guess what?  This story this Newly Founded veterans group is giving out is most likely another one of those fakes.

I think the Kerry team is doing it the wrong way. They should face charges (deny them and back it up) and not go on a witch hunt to see if the Bush team is behind the group(which is BS).

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]Records Counter a Critic of Kerry

Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire

By Michael Dobbs

Washington Post Staff Writer

Thursday, August 19, 2004; Page A01

Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television advertisement attacking his war record.

In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his 50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According to Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.

Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."

"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders.

A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire.

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans.

The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post by officials at the records center yesterday.

Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version of events.

For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

Thurlow, an oil industry worker and former teacher in Kansas, said he was angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities on his return to the United States and particularly Kerry's claim before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that U.S. troops in Vietnam had committed war crimes "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

" 'Upset' is too mild a word," said Thurlow, a registered Republican, of his reaction to Kerry then. "He did it strictly for his own personal political gain, and it directly affected every single one of us as we were trying to put our lives together."

Members of Kerry's crew have come to his defense, as has Rassmann, the Special Forces officer whom he fished from the river. Rassmann says he has vivid memories of being fired at from both banks after he fell into the river and as Kerry came to his rescue. The two had an emotional reunion on the eve of the Iowa Democratic caucuses in January, an event that some political analysts believe helped swing votes to Kerry at a crucial time.

The Bronze Star recommendations for both Kerry and Thurlow were signed by Lt. Cmdr. George M. Elliott, who received reports on the incident from his base in the Gulf of Thailand. Elliott is a supporter of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and has questioned Kerry's actions in Vietnam. But he has refused repeated requests for an interview after issuing conflicting statements to the Boston Globe about whether Kerry deserved a Silver Star. He was unreachable last night.

Money has poured into Swift Boat Veterans for Truth since the group launched its television advertisement attacking Kerry earlier this month. According to O'Neill, the group has received more than $450,000 over the past two weeks, mainly in small contributions. The Dallas Morning News reported yesterday that the organization has also received two $100,000 checks from Houston home builder Bob Perry, who backed George W. Bush's campaigns for Texas governor and for president.

Bush campaign officials have said they have no connection to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which is not permitted to coordinate its activities with a presidential campaign under federal election law.

That thing is based mainly by this guys storys, which have prooven to be wrong..