Us presidential election 2004

[Schoeler 0]

Quote[/b] ]An examination of the case list shows them to excusivley anti Democrat previous to this their last cases were against the Clinton administration and gore.

If you are going to quote sources try to find ones that less biased are not full of fairy tales.

We are not so silly on this site as to be fooled by such stupidity.

Kind Regards Walker

What are you talking about, Walker? They did file a formal request with the U.S. Navy and the Defense Department. So, they do not like democrats that much and this makes them a "front" for the bush team...

No it makes them and anyone who supports them despicable.

It makes anyone like me who served in the Navy angry and it dishonors every veteran who ever served and calls into question every decoration ever awarded because it assumes that the process of awarding medals is flawed and that the people who won them may or may not deserve them depending upon who is running for office.

The process of giving out medals in the military is nothing short of rigorous and it has built in integrity and any son of a bitch who never served who feels he has the right to question any award won by anybody who did serve deserves neither the freedom those veterans won for him with their service and too many times their lives nor the dignity or respect accorded a patriot and citizen of this country.

I am done talking to you you civilian ignorant pogue motherfucker.  I'll take my ban now.

[walker 0]

Hi All

I think we can all see now why it is that so many supporters of the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior so desperately want believe these fairy tales.

It is the fact the man they follow is a coward and who will freeze in an emergency. They are afraid of this. So they lash out with these foolish fairytales.

Like the Chicken Hawks he employs when a real battle comes they run away in fear asking mummy to tell them fairy tales.

The Economy

They dare not discuss the economy because that is full of monsters like lots of unemployment, a dollar that is worth toilet paper, debt up to their ears, a maxed out credit card deficit etc.

Iraq

They dare not discuss Iraq and National defense because the war is looking very bad and lots people have died and it was all a mistake anyway. They don't want people to discuss that TBA and the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior went out and found lawyers to say it was OK to torture people and rape little boys and that after it was done they got caught.

Health

They dare not discuss health because so many don't have any health insurance any longer; being unemployed or or too low paid an d it reminds everyone the economy is going to hell in a hen basket.

Corporate Crime

They dare not discuss crime because that reminds everyone that the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior has a criminal record and is a friend of Kenneth Lay and others in ENRON who gave the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior millions of dollars for his 2000 election campaign and that Dodgy Dick Cheney gave them an energy deal that allowed them to con the people of California out of billions of dollars.

Homeland Defense

They cannot discuss homeland defense because that reminds everyone that on 9/11 when the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior was told "America is Under Attack" he froze in fear and spent 10 minutes having kiddies read him a fairy tale about a goat then he spent 20 minutes taking a photo op.

And in the 34 minutes from first being told "America is Under Attack" to the aircraft hitting the countries chief defense site the Pentagon in the nations capitol Washington the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior did not issue a single order for the nations defense.

Kind Regards Walker

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I am done talking to you you civilian ignorant pogue motherfucker.  I'll take my ban now.

WTF. Excuse me? I have told you billions of times I respect Kerry's service. Furthermore, I'm not the one bringing the "charges" aganist Kerry but his fellow veterans (who have earned medals, too) are. If they have proof about the "charges" against Kerry then let them show it. Do not try to bring your bad day in to the forums and try to attack me...

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]If they have proof about the "charges" against Kerry then let them show it.

The only proof that they have is Larry Thurlows testimony, which contradicts the stories of the official records, and his fellow soldiers storys. Larry Thurlow also doesnt want his service records to be bublished. (unlike Kerry)

If this isnt a cheap attack on ex-brother in arms, i dont know what is it..

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]If this isnt a cheap attack on ex-brother in arms, i dont know what is it..

This is really sad that this is the only thing Kerry is getting a lot of coverage for about his past and not his 20 years in the Senate.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]You know the funny thing about this thing, i believe its all a politcal lie.  I don't believe this group is telling the truth, because if they were telling the truth, then why the hell wouldn't they talk about it way before now?  Eh??  Its stupid, not to mention the combat report made up at the end when they got back to base well, it wasn't written by Kerry so guess what?  This story this Newly Founded veterans group is giving out is most likely another one of those fakes.

I think the Kerry team is doing it the wrong way. They should face charges (deny them and back it up) and not go on a witch hunt to see if the Bush team is behind the group(which is BS).

nope. if you got complaints file it to authority.

WHERE IS WMD?

WHERE IS OBL?

WHERE IS NATIONAL GUARD RECORD?

Judicial watch has been a conservative group all the way.

Quote[/b] ]Excuse me? I have told you billions of times I respect Kerry's service. Furthermore, I'm not the one bringing the "charges" aganist Kerry but his fellow veterans (who have earned medals, too) are.

No you do not respect his record. all you did was constantly bringing question that were literally reiterations of Swiftpets charges. If you respected Kerry's record you would not question it, or question both sides.

Quote[/b] ]This is really sad that this is the only thing Kerry is getting a lot of coverage for about his past and not his 20 years in the Senate.

it's 15 months of fame!

funny how Bush's records are not shown, his agenda lost(no strong point) and his past is not questioned.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]nope. if you got complaints file it to authority.

The whole affair can gain points if Kerry successful defeats it. Him running to authorities might embolden them.

Quote[/b] ]WHERE IS WMD?

WHERE IS OBL?

WHERE IS NATIONAL GUARD RECORD?

1. Moved to syria and buried in the vast desert... (remember hearing that story)

2. probably dead or buried alived or hanging with bush (far-left "wet dream") or very hidden

3. White House said all the records are released

Quote[/b] ]If you respected Kerry's record you would not question it, or question both sides.

The only reason that I'm looking at this whole swift boat crap is that Kerry will not face them but, instead, he calls them a Bush front.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]nope. if you got complaints file it to authority.

The whole affair can gain points if Kerry successful defeats it. Him running to authorities might embold them.

did you notice that? it's not about issues of the nation, it's about person's record that GOP is trying to portray this election is..

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]WHERE IS WMD?

WHERE IS OBL?

WHERE IS NATIONAL GUARD RECORD?

1. Moved to syria and buried in the vast desert... (remember hearing that story)

2. probably dead or buried alived or hanging with bush (far-left "wet dream") or very hidden

3. White House said all the records are released

ROFLMAO!

1. Sure, blame Syria. how about Saudi Arabia next?

2. why is it so hard to catch him when we have 150,000 troops in afghanistan? oops sorry. that was Iraq.

3. All the records that are 'found' is released, not all. remember that paystub? seems like the last one that was found indicated that Bush was NOT paid. and I hardly beleive that NG has poor record keeping. If Kerry's record in Vietnam is found, why not Bush's in NG?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]1. Sure, blame Syria.  how about Saudi Arabia next?

Quote[/b] ]

his past is not questioned.

That is bs... Terry McAuliffe called Bush AWOL

Quote[/b] ]did you notice that? it's not about issues of the nation, it's about person's record that GOP is trying to portray this election is..

Then what the hell his "band of brothers" have to do with the issues of the nation.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]1. Sure, blame Syria.  how about Saudi Arabia next?

fine..we'll blame Kuwait.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

his past is not questioned.

That is bs... Terry McAuliffe called Bush AWOL

yes, and what happened? some indirect record.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]did you notice that? it's not about issues of the nation, it's about person's record that GOP is trying to portray this election is..

Then what the hell his "band of brothers" have to do with the issues of the nation.

just about as much as how Bush is likable person is to the issue, which Bush is proud to say.

[Akira 0]

The only reason that I'm looking at this whole swift boat crap is that Kerry will not face them but, instead, he calls them a Bush front.

Why should he have to face them when their partisan actions are so obvious? It's like Bush responding to MoveOn.Org. Only Republican zombies like yourself continue to listen to them.

And fyi, on Hardball on MSNBC tonight, they outlined possible financial links of the Swift boat group that lead right to Karl Rove and George Bush Sr. Three different watch groups have filed suit against the group as well.

Quote[/b] ]3. White House said all the records are released

Oh. Well then. It must be true. Cause they sure as hell haven't lied or been wrong before.

Jesus wake up. The very statement alone shows you are nothingbut a Republican parrot. "The White House said so. I will believe them. I need no brain. Yes master."

Quote[/b] ]1. Moved to syria and buried in the vast desert... (remember hearing that story)

Feel free to post information where you heard this with sources. (FYI, "remember hearing that story" doesn't' cut it)

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Feel free to post information where you heard this with sources. (FYI, "remember hearing that story" doesn't' cut it)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news....op.html

http://www.news24.com/News24....00.html

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Feel free to post information where you heard this with sources. (FYI, "remember hearing that story" doesn't' cut it)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news....op.html

http://www.news24.com/News24....00.html

Are there any sustainable edvidence to suport this claim like satellite photos or does it fall in to the same category as "Saddam WMD in Lebanon.And former Iraqi officials

interrogations really and I do mean really doesn`t cut it for me.

Also what you so graciously choose to forget like most of Bush peanut gallery is that the moment US soldiers stepped foot in Baghdad without once being attacked by unconventional weapons Bush`s case for war crumbled forever in the dust.

Quote[/b] ]2. probably dead or buried alived or hanging with bush (far-left "wet dream") or very hidden

What`s funny is that you theory of "probably dead or buried alive" is just as laughable as far-left wet dreams.CIA reports that he is very much active in Al-Queda planning and already confirmed the latest tape had his voice on it.

So I must ask for any shred of edvidence that prooves there are more then 50% chances(probably) Osama Bin Laden is dead or burried otherwise I will have to belive again that this is republican peanut minded wishful thinking.

[ozanzac 0]

Billybob, could you refresh us in depth as to why you support George Bush so much? Where do your influences come from? What makes him likeable? What makes him a good president?

And most importantly, why do you defend him so much? He's a career politician! You should vote on the basis of the policies the people have, not just on the people.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Feel free to post information where you heard this with sources. (FYI, "remember hearing that story" doesn't' cut it)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news....op.html

http://www.news24.com/News24....00.html

LMAO, David Kay who then went on saying that there were no WMD in the first place. You live in an interesting world billybob, where you pick the information you like and ignore the rest.

Here's what he said:

US expert slams WMD 'delusions' [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]

Weapons of mass destruction do not exist in Iraq and it is "delusional" to think they will be found, says former chief US weapons inspector David Kay.

Mr Kay told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that British and American leaders should simply apologise and admit that they were wrong.

He said Saddam Hussein had intended to reconstitute his weapons programme at some point and had acted illegally.

However, there were no actual WMD stockpiles, he said.

Mr Kay led the hunt for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq until he stepped down as head of the Iraq Survey Group in January.

He said at the time that he did not believe there had been large-scale production of chemical or biological weapons in Iraq since the end of the first Gulf War in 1991.

'No stockpiles'

In his latest comments, Mr Kay referred to the UK Prime Minister, Tony Blair, by name.

"Anyone out there holding - as I gather Prime Minister Blair has recently said - the prospect that, in fact, the Iraq Survey Group is going to unmask actual weapons of mass destruction, are really delusional," he said.

"There is nothing there. There is a programme there. There was an intention of Saddam Hussein at some point to reconstitute it.

"There were clearly illegal activities, clear violations of UN Security Council resolutions. We have accumulated that evidence and really have accumulated that evidence to a considerable degree four months ago.

"There are not actual stockpiles of newly produced weapons of mass destruction."

Mr Kay repeated his previous assertions that the US-led coalition had been mistaken in its assumption that Saddam Hussein had possessed the banned weapons.

"We simply got it wrong," he said. "Iraq was a dangerous country, Saddam was an evil man and we are better off without him and all of that. But we were wrong in our estimation."

----

Quote[/b] ]The only reason that I'm looking at this whole swift boat crap is that Kerry will not face them but, instead, he calls them a Bush front.

They're Bush fanatics. I've never seen such a large collection of billybobs in one place. Take a look at their discussion forums. These are really hardcore fanatics.

[walker 0]

Hi all

I got this from a guy called Dan Wingfoot on the John F. Kerry Site, he is a climber like me the post is on the veterans section of the John F. Kerry Site. There is lots of stuff there and we are alowed to use it all. http://forum.johnkerry.com/index.php?showtopic=57170&st=15

SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR BUSH (veterans who did not serve with Kerry as claimed)

The Swift Boat Veterans for Bush have been running an attack ad showing people who claim to have served with John Kerry, and who claim that he is lying about his military service. Here is a word-by-word debunking of their claims that show that it is the SBVB veterans who are lying (use the "Swift Boat Veterans for Bush Falsehoods" link to go directly to the word-for-word debunker).

See www.johnkerry.com/rapidresponse/080504_truth.html

KERRY'S SWIFTBOAT CREWMATES (veterans who really did serve on Kerry's swiftboat)

John Kerry's crewmates, the men who actually served in Vietnam on one of the two swiftboats he commanded, have all verified his military record. You can hear their testimony about Kerry's military service in Vietnam by going to the video "Under Fire" ...

See www.johnkerry.com/video/console.php?video=072604_under_fire

-----

Proof that Kerry did serve in Cambodia

Apparently the swiftboat fellows who put out that ad that John McCain called "dishonet and disgraceful" are upset because John Kerry said on the floor of the senate in 1986, during a debate on Vietnam:

'I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared--seared--in me.'

The charge: that Kerry was never in Cambodia, and in 1986, Kerry deliberately fabricated this elaborate lie to persuade people he was there, rather than in Vietnam.

Specifically, John O'Neill (who was not in Vietnam when Kerry was there) says: “Kerry was never in Cambodia during Christmas 1968, or at all during the Vietnam War. . . . he was more than fifty miles away from Cambodia.â€...Kerry was stationed at Coastal Division 13 in Cat Lo. Coastal Division 13’s patrol areas..." This conflicts with another swiftboat fellow's statement, though ...

Robert Brant, PCF#36 says:..."I served in Vietnam as a boat officer from June of 1968 to July of 1969. My service was three months in Coastal Division 13 out of Cat Lo, and nine months with Coastal Division 11 based in An Thoi. John Kerry was in An Thoi the same time I was..."

Here's Kerry's boat, PCF #66, out of An Thoi. Search for Kerry's name on the page, and you'll see he was patrolling An Thoi in December 1968. http://swiftboats.net/#pcf66

Here are the names of the associated patrol areas:

http://swiftboats.net/extras/patrol_areas.htm

Patrol Areas 9B thru 9H1 (An Thoi) are right on the Cambodian border. Cat Lo is 5B through 5F, btw.

Here's a map that shows everything http://ideamouth.com/politics/PatrolAreas.jpeg

-----

When you have finished verifying that John Kerry's record of service in Vietnam is exactly what he has said it is, perhaps you will want to see a side-by-side comparison of the military service of John Kerry and George W. Bush. After all, that's what all of this disinformation by the Bush campaign is about ... to keep you from comparing the character displayed by Kerry and Bush which is easily seen by examining their respective military records.

How do John Kerry and George W. Bush's records of service during Vietnam compare? Here's the full story, side by side ... Kerry and Bush Military Service Compared

http://www.democrats.org/wherewasbush/fullchart.html

Also see John Kerry's complete service records

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/...ry_records.html

Note: George W. Bush has yet to release his full service records.

What those who actually knew Kerry in Vietnam have said ...

Here are the 10 crewmates who served with Kerry in Vietnam. All except Tom Belodeau (who is deceased) and Steve Gardner (whose testimony is contradicted by all of the others) support John Kerry and stood with him as he made his acceptance speech to the Democratic National Convention.

I'll let them speak for themselves, including Steve Gardner. The following are sourced quotes:

The Crew of Swiftboat PCF-94

Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta. The most intense action came during an extraordinary eight days of more than 10 firefights, remembered by Kerry's crew as the "days of hell."

David Alston

Rev. Alston is from Columbia, SC and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Gunners Mate on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.

"David Alston was the gunner atop Kerry's pilot house. Kerry, he told an audience here, was a compassionate commander. `We were in a lot of firefights,' Alston said. `You learn a lot about people. After a firefight, John would come up to me and he would put his hand on me and he'd say, 'David, are you all right?' `I didn't know then that I had a man of God on my boat,' Kerry said. `That's probably why I'm here today'."

Orlando Sentinel

January 31, 2004

`Down in the Mekong Delta, we lived together, we fought together, we bled together and we survived together,' said Alston. `Whether we were Democratic or Republican was not the issue,' he said. `The issues at that time were trust, courage, judgment and character.' Alston attached those attributes to Kerry and introduced his friend with no further ceremony." [Providence Journal-Bulletin, 3/23/03]

Del Sandusky

Sandusky is from Dunedin, FL and served in Vietnam in the Navy as the senior enlisted man on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.

"Kerry commanded a Navy `Swift Boat' that patrolled the Mekong delta. His crew recalls Kerry as brainy and extremely aggressive, `a good leader and a bit of a hard-charger,' says Del Sandusky from Elgin, Ill." [Washington Post, 6/2/02]

"Del Sandusky, 58, of Elgin, Ill., and Clearwater, Fla., served under Kerry on a patrol boat in 1969. When another boat hit a mine, Kerry ordered the dead and injured brought on board and the sinking boat towed, six or seven miles, to the Gulf of Tonkin. Because Americans had died on the boat, Kerry, out of loyalty, wouldn't leave it behind for the enemy. `All the boat crew men volunteered to help in anyway we can,' with Kerry's political campaigns, Sandusky said. `Whatever he wants, we'll help him with. Because we believe in him.' "

Associated Press

December 6, 2004

Fred Short

Mr. Short is from North Little Rock, AR and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Gunners Mate on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.

"In 1969, I was Sen. Kerry's gun mate atop of the Swift boat in Vietnam. And I just wanted to let everyone know that, contrary to all the rumors that you might hear from the other side, Sen. Kerry's blood is red, not blue. I know, I've seen it.

"If it weren't for Sen. John Kerry, on the 28th of February 1969, the day he won the Silver Star . . . you and I would not be having this conversation. My name would be on a long, black wall in Washington, D.C. I saw this man save my life."3

3La Ganga, Maria L. "Crewmates Attest to Kerry's Mettle as Wartime Commander." Los Angeles Times. 29 July 2004 (p. A13). Zoroya, Greg. "Vietnam Crewmates Steady at Kerry's Side."

USA Today (p.A4)

29 July 2004

Gene Thorson

Mr. Thorson is from Ames, Iowa and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Engineman on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.

In support of this grassroots deployment, 73,000 Iowa veteran households received a mailing in December from Kerry's Vietnam swift boat crewmate Gene Thorsen, of Ames, IA, rallying them to "stand up for John Kerry the same way he stands up for veterans."

He said he knew back then that the skipper of his boat, John Kerry, was bound for high places. Almost 30 years later, Thorson got a call from Kerry asking for political help. Now, he often gives up his weekends to travel with other veterans and campaign with Kerry on his run for president.

Ames Tribune

Matt Neznanski, Staff Writer

July 19, 2004

"He took care of all of us. He really did," Thorson said.

Des Moines Register

Tom Belodeau

Deceased, he served on PCF-94 with Kerry

Kerry was helped by the fact that Belodeau stood beside him and said he had been misquoted."This man was not lying on the ground. This man was more than capable of destroying that boat and everybody on it. Senator Kerry did not give him that opportunity," Belodeau said. He also said that he was not sure whether or not he had hit the attacker.

May 06, 2004 National Review Online

Mike Medeiros

Mr. Medeiros is from San Leandros, California and served in Vietnam in the Navy on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.

"He made good decisions, I believe proper decisions," said Mike Medeiros of San Leandro, Calif., who served for four months on Kerry's swift boat in Vietnam. "And the fact that we all returned alive is a good indication that they were the right decisions."Medeiros was reunited with Kerry in 1996, when Republicans were attacking his military record in a heated Senate race. Kerry's crew mates came to set the record straight at the Charlestown Navy Yard, the same place they stood shoulder-to-shoulder on the eve of his nomination acceptance.

ABCNEWS.com

July 28, 2004

The Crew of Swiftboat PFC-44

Kerry captained this ship from November 1968 to January 1969. This command saw considerably less action

Jim Wasser

Mr. Wasser is from St. Anne, IL and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Radarman on PCF-44 with Senator Kerry.

Mr. Kerry took command of P.C.F.-44 with a veteran crew headed by Mr. Wasser, a radarman second class. "Always, when there's a new guy on the boat, you check him out," Mr. Wasser said. "It only took me a few days. We knew that we had somebody special that cared for us. We bonded."

Combative and politically conservative, Mr. Wasser, from Kankakee, Ill., had a pair of American flags tattooed on his shoulder and still loathes Jane Fonda.

NYTimes Febuary 24 2004

What I saw back then [in Vietnam] was a guy with genuine caring and leadership ability who was aggressive when he had to be. What I see now is a guy who's not afraid to tackle tough issues. And he knows what the consequences are of putting people's kids in harm's way."

Drew Whitlow

Mr. Whitlow is from Huntsville, AR and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Boatswain Mate on PCF-44 with Senator Kerry.

"I figured with the abilities he had, he was going to go high, but I didn't have any idea about him running for president," said Whitlow, 57, wearing a cap decorated with Kerry campaign pins.

Whitlow said he recalled Kerry as a humble seaman when he joined Whitlow's crew as a lieutenant junior grade in 1968.

Kerry told crewmates, "I know you guys don't need me but I sure need you," said Whitlow, who served as a boatswain mate.

"He accepted us for who we were," Whitlow said. "The decisions that he made saved our lives.

"He never shot from the hip when it came to decisions," Whitlow said. "He'd always confront the problems head on."

Whitlow, a Kerry campaign coordinator for veterans in western and southern Arkansas, began campaigning for Kerry in September 2003. In January, Whitlow traveled with Kerry to Iowa and New Hampshire.

The Times Record

Fort Smith, Arkansas Thursday, July 29, 2004

Bill Zaladonis

Mr. Zaladonis is from Sanford, FL and served in Vietnam in the Navy on PCF-44 with Senator Kerry.

"I never saw John back down from anything," crewmember Bill Zaladonis says

USA Today

April 13, 2004

Steve Hatch

Mr. Hatch served in Vietnam in the Navy on PCF-44 with Senator Kerry.

Stephen W. Hatch of Altoona, Pa., with four tattoos, who says he supports Mr. Kerry though he wants no part of politics.

New York Times

Febuary 24 2004

"He wouldn't let you go randomly down the river shooting up everything in sight," says Stephen Hatch, who served on the first of Kerry's two boats.

USA Today

April 13, 2004

Jim Rassmann

Jim Rassmann was not a crewmate but I think belongs here.

Mr. Rassmann is from Florence, OR, and served in Vietnam as a Special Forces Officer in the Army.

He clung to the net as bullets whizzed past. `Next thing I knew, John came out in the middle of all this,' Rassmann says. `I couldn't believe it. He was going to get killed. He ran to the edge, reached over with his good arm [Kerry had been wounded in his right arm] and pulled me over the lip.' Rassmann later recommended Kerry for the Silver Star, and was upset when the Army instead awarded Kerry a lesser Bronze Star with a `V' for valor."

Los Angeles Times

March 13, 2004

Under Navy Admiral Elmo Zumwalt's command, swift boats would aggressively engage the enemy. Zumwalt, who died in 2000, calculated in his autobiography that these men under his command had a 75 percent chance of being killed or wounded during a typical year.

John Kerry requested to serve on these swiftboats.

Stephen M. Gardner

Served in Vietnam in the Navy on PCF-44 with Senator John Kerry

"Kerry was chicken"expletive deleted"," he insists. "Whenever a firefight started he always pulled up stakes and got the hell out of Dodge."

"I was driving down the road, and I hit that [radio] button and Rush was talking about Kerry and his campaign and how something just didn't feel right to him," Gardner recalled, his voice full of conviction. "Something about what John Kerry did or was doing, just really didn't set right with him. And you know I served with this guy, and the bottom line to it is; harsh as this may sound or as good as it sounds to any Democrat, out there, John Kerry is another `Slick Willy.' He's another Bill Clinton and that's exactly what he is. And I'm telling you right now, that if John Kerry gets to be president of these United States, it'll be a sorry day in this world for us. We can't stand another Democrat like that in there again. We'll get our asses in such a sling this time; we won't be able to get out of it. And the bottom line to it is, I don't care how much John Kerry's changed after he moved off my boat, his initial patterns of behavior when I met him and served under him was somebody who ran from the enemy, rather than engaged it. If I'd had Rush's 800 number, or known how to reach him, I would have called in."

"I've told a few of my friends that he was an (expletive deleted)," Gardner says. "But I'm not looking to make news."

"Kerry sat some of them down and convinced them to buy into his side of what happened over there,"

"When you're as persuasive as Kerry it's not hard to make a guy change something that he saw."

A recent interview with Gardner is at the Time link. The interview explains why he hasn't been heard of until recently. All of the Gardner quotes are here and more.

The author of the Time article states that he believes Gardner's motives are political, and after reading what he had to say I'm inclined to agree.

Time magazine interview with Gardner, "The Tenth Brother"

Here is what his commanders said about Kerry in their fitness reports ...

Lieutenant Commander George Elliott

In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.

LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program.

During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

Lt. Commander Grant Hibbard

Hibbard's evaluation was brief and incomplete because Hibbard oversaw Kerry's service for only about two weeks. Kerry's duty under Hibbard included "counter infiltration operations against Viet Cong forces. Engaged in combat operations." Hibbard marked a few performance categories, noting that Kerry's initiative, cooperation, and bearing ranked among the top few. But unlike other evaluators who wrote about specific actions by Kerry, Hibbard did not do so, providing this explanation: "The short period LTJG Kerry was attached to Coast Division 14 prevents further evaluation."

Captain Adrian Lonsdale

In the November 4, 1996, issue of South Coast Today, wrote: "Adrian Lonsdale remembers a young John F. Kerry as a naval officer who was a good debater, even back in his days in Vietnam. "'He and I and others used to have long discussions at the officers club,' said Mr. Lonsdale of Mattapoisett, a former Coast Guard officer who commanded a division in which the Massachusetts senator was attached back in 1969. 'They were very spirited discussions about the war and the politics back home.' "'He was opposed to the war but it didn't make any difference in his performance,' said the former owner and still instructor at Northeast Maritime Institute in New Bedford. 'He was a very good officer.'

"Capt. Lonsdale was among a group of former Vietnam veterans the Massachusetts Democrat brought to the Charlestown navy yard recently to rebut a Boston Globe column that raised questions about Sen. Kerry's Vietnam service, particularly the Silver Star he won.

"Mr. Lonsdale was in charge of a two-division flotilla opereating [sic] out of Phu Quoc, a big island near the Cambodian border. One division was made up of Swift boats, fast 50-foot offshore boats, while the other was composed of 82-foot Coast Guard patrol boats."

*Note this is not a fitness report

Admiral Zumwalt

Admiral Zumwalt signed Kerry's silver star recommendation. In 1996, he defended John Kerry in the midst of a close political campaign. Admiral Zumwalt is deceased, his son decided to speak on his behalf on the website .

Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann

Capt. Roy Hoffmann(Excerpt)

This is from an article about Ex-Senator Bob Kerrey:

"Delta Platoon was assigned to the Navy's Task Force 115, based at Cam Ranh Bay and commanded by Capt. Roy Hoffmann, a favorite of Adm. Elmo Zumwalt Jr., the Navy's top man in Vietnam. Hoffmann was a cigar-chomping officer who brandished an M-16 assault rifle and wore a revolver when he visited troops in the field. "He was the classic body-count guy," Kerrey says. "Bunkers destroyed, hooches destroyed, sort of scorekeeper."

Captain Charles Plumly

Kerry was under his command for a brief time. There are no reports from him about Kerry from 1969.

Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott

Evaluation co-signed by Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott on January 28, 1969, and March 17, 1969, respectively:

... exhibited all of the traits of an officer in a combat environment. He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta.

Captain Allen W. Slifer

October 19, 1967, evaluation from Captain Allen W. Slifer: "A top notch officer in every measurable trait. Intelligent, mature, and rich in educational background and experience, ENS Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question one of the most promising. "

Admiral Walter F. Schlech

March 2, 1970 evaluation from Admiral Walter F. Schlech:

"... one of the finest young officers with whom I have served in a long naval career."

Captain E.W. Harper, Jr

September 3, 1968, evaluation from Captain E.W. Harper, Jr.:

"LTJG KERRY is an intelligent and competent young naval officer who has performed his duties in an excellent to outstanding manner."

Kind Regards Walkerhttp://forum.johnkerry.com/index.php?showtopic=57170&st=15

[Bernadotte 0]

The following seems to have greater significance today than it did when I posted it 17 days ago:

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is a non-partisan organization.

You're joking again, right?  

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth was founded just a few months ago by this guy, John O'Neill.

Who is John O'Neill?

According to a NewYorker article published several months before SBVFT was founded he was a pro-Vietnam War vet that President Richard Nixon dug up to oppose Kerry's anti-war campaign.  Charles Colson, one of Nixon's chief advisors, had the following to say about their anti-Kerry strategy:

Quote[/b] ]Years later, Chuck Colson—who was Nixon’s political enforcer—told me, “He [Kerry] was a thorn in our flesh. He was very articulate, a credible leader of the opposition. He forced us to create a counterfoil. We found a vet named John O’Neill and formed a group called Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace. We had O’Neill meet the President, and we did everything we could do to boost his group.â€

Here he is (left) being coached by Richard Nixon and Nixon's PR specialist, Colson, ahead of debating Kerry on TV in 1971.

Non-partisan.

 LMAO

[quicksand 0]

Poll: Many Americans still believe Iraq had WMDs

Quote[/b] ]

The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (August 20, 4:25 am ADT) - More than half of Americans, 54 percent, continue to believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or a program to develop them before the United States invaded last year, according to a poll released Friday.

Evidence of such weapons has not been found.

Half believe Iraq was either closely linked with al-Qaida before the war (35 percent) or was directly involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on this country (15 percent).

The poll by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland found the numbers on both questions have dropped in the face of evidence that both pre-war claims may have been false.

President Bush consistently equates the war on terrorism with the war in Iraq, though he has replaced his claims that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction with claims that Iraq had the "capability" of building such weapons.

Both the Sept. 11 commission and the Senate Intelligence Committee have raised doubts about pre-war claims by the Bush administration before the Iraq war.

Seven in 10 in the poll say they believe the United States went to war in Iraq based on false assumptions. A similar number say the war in Iraq has given the United States a worse image in the world.

A majority, 55 percent, say they don't think the war in Iraq will result in greater peace and stability in the Mideast. In various polls, people have been evenly split on whether the war in Iraq was the right or wrong thing to do - a sharp drop from last winter.

The poll of 733 adults was conducted by Knowledge Networks from Aug. 5-11 and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

I am not going to give names now,but I know atleast one person on this forums who would find great friends among the people wh still billyve Saddam had WMD and close ties with Al-Queda

[denoir 0]

The insane part is that this election is going to be decided by at max a few percentage points difference while you have 15% of the people thinking that Bush's Iraq war was justified because Iraq was behind the WTC attacks  

In other news:

New York ready to unleash fury on Republicans [The Guardian]

Quote[/b] ]

The smiling face of former New York mayor Ed Koch beams down from posters all over the city. 'The Republicans are coming,' it says underneath. 'Make nice.'

Fat chance. New York is bracing for one of the biggest showdowns in its political history as the Republican national convention comes to town at the end of the month. Meeting the army of delegates, politicians and lobbyists will be a vast array of protest groups that intend to make the Republicans' Big Apple stay as unpleasant as possible. Trying to keep order on the streets will be 20,000 police, secret servicemen and National Guard units. A quiet week seems out of the question.

Jamie Moran certainly hopes so. He is one of the main driving forces behind the protest movement which has sprung up since the Republicans announced they would gather in New York. He and others have been collecting information on all aspects of the convention.

They run a 'snitch line' where people involved in the convention can leak details of events and where delegates have been staying. The protesters are widely believed to have infiltrated several people into working at the convention who will smuggle information out. Moran's plan is to send out teams of activists to disrupt as many events as possible.

'It's all coming along well,' he told The Observer at a meeting of protest groups in a city church. Moran, 30, son of a local cop, has become a minor media star in New York, but he is far from alone in plotting to make the city a place the Republican party will be reluctant to return to. In all, more than 250,000 protesters from all over the US and the rest of the world are expected to converge on the city during the four-day event.

Maps of where Republican events are being held have been distributed. They contain details of where delegates are staying, lobbyists' parties are being held and major corporate headquarters are located. Streets will be shut down, impromptu marches held, meetings disrupted and parties invaded.

Sit-down demonstrations will block traffic, protesters will chain themselves together and delegates' hotels will be infiltrated. There will be organised protests and marches, with City Hall permits, that are expected to attract hundreds of thousands of demonstrators.

John Flanigan and Tim Doody are two other protest co-ordinators aiming to make 31 August a day of direct action. They said they would shun the idea of applying for any form of permit.

'We already have a permit. It is called the American constitution. The idea that I have to ask for permission to protest my own government is ridiculous,' Flanigan said.

Sitting on the steps of St Mark's church in the East Village, the pair typified the anger felt by protesters that the Republicans are holding their convention in a city that prides itself on its liberalism. 'This has really shaken everyone out of their complacency. People are outraged,' said Doody.

Polls support that reaction. A recent survey showed that 83 per cent of New Yorkers did not want the convention in their city. 'We all live here,' said Angela Coppola, an office worker who has joined the protest groups. 'We were the victims of 11 September and now they are coming to terrorise us with their asinine convention.'

New York was chosen by the Republicans with an eye on associating the party with the terror attacks of 2001. But now it runs the risk of having the media coverage turn into pictures of street battles and mass arrests. However, that may not necessarily upset Republican strategists. TV footage of besieged delegates inside Madison Square Garden may boost George Bush's poll ratings in key, socially conservative Midwest states.

New York police are preparing for the worst. Manhattan's District Attorney's office has said that it expects 1,000 arrests a day during the convention, three times the normal rate. Police will have 'non-lethal' weapons such as tasers (electric stun guns), plastic bullets and pepper spray. Any illegal protest is expected to be cracked down on immediately.

At a press briefing last week, mayor Mike Bloomberg was firm about the police attitude to protesters without permits: 'If you disrupt traffic, if you behave in a way that is against the law, the NYPD will enforce the law. Period.'

Huge preparations have been made to combat the threat of terrorism. New York, along with Washington and Newark, New Jersey, is likely to still be on a heightened state of terrorist alert. Checkpoints will be set up around the convention centre, helicopter flights over the city will be banned and New York-bound trains will be searched by anti-bomb units using sniffer dogs.

The convention itself, featuring speakers such as Senator John McCain and Arnold Schwarzenegger, governor of California, will culminate in the prime-time acceptance speech of Bush himself. But by then it is possible that events on the streets will be all anyone is talking about.

This is going to be far more interesting than the DNC in Boston. Who knows  - it might even work in Bush's favour. New York is lost for the Republicans already but if there are big demonstrations or riots, it can affect people watching it on TV. And it would probably help Bush to tighten his grip on the voters that like him now.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Apparently the swiftboat fellows who put out that ad that John McCain called "dishonet and disgraceful" are upset because John Kerry said on the floor of the senate in 1986, during a debate on Vietnam:

'I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared--seared--in me.'

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/nation/9436403.htm

Quote[/b] ]"During John Kerry's service in Vietnam, many times he was on or near the Cambodian border and on one occasion crossed into Cambodia at the request of members of a Special Operations group operating out of Ha Tien," Kerry spokesman Michael Meehan said in a statement. The statement did not say when the cross-border mission took place.

Quote[/b] ]

Meehan, in his statement issued last week, described the incident this way:

"On December 24, 1968, Lieutenant John Kerry and his crew were on patrol in the watery borders between Vietnam and Cambodia deep in enemy territory. In the early afternoon, Kerry's boat, PCF-44, was at Sa Dec and then headed north to the Cambodian border. There, Kerry and his crew along with two other boats were ambushed, taking fire from both sides of the river, and after the firefight were fired upon again. Later that evening during their night patrol they came under friendly fire."

Quote[/b] ]James Wasser, who accompanied Kerry on that mission aboard patrol boat No. 44 and who supports Kerry's candidacy, said that while he believes they were "very, very close" to Cambodia, he did not think they entered Cambodia on that mission. Yet he added: "It is very hard to tell. There are no signs."

Another crewmate who said he was with Kerry on Christmas Eve, Steven Gardner — who is a member of the veterans group opposing Kerry's candidacy — said Kerry was 50 miles from Cambodia at the time. He accused Kerry of lying about being in Cambodia or by the border. "Never happened," Gardner said.

Quote[/b] ]Michael Medeiros, who served aboard the No. 94 with Kerry and appeared with him at the Democratic National Convention, vividly recalled an occasion on which Kerry and the crew chased an enemy to the Cambodian border but did not go beyond the border. But Medeiros said he could not recall dropping off Special Operations forces in Cambodia or going inside Cambodia with Kerry.

"I don't recall us ever dropping anyone in Cambodia, not anywhere close to Cambodia," Medeiros said, emphasizing that he could speak only about the six weeks he served with Kerry in 1969. "I'm not aware of any crossing."

The reason Kerry is acting now (finally) because he is starting to lose the veteran vote.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think the Kerry team is doing it the wrong way. They should face charges (deny them and back it up) and not go on a witch hunt to see if the Bush team is behind the group(which is BS).

The Kerry team has faced the charges, denied them and backed up by official records, fellow servicemens confirming this (an a fellow officer who was in the same patrolReuters ) and several other eyewittnesses.

The fact that so called "swiftboatveterans for truth" are interfiering with kerrys campaign by lieing to the bublic, with the funding of one of Bushes old friends indeed makes this organization, its funding and purpouse show up in a dubious light. Kerrys team has said that they can proove the connections alleged. This far Kerry has kept his promises. (unlike GWB)

[billybob2002 0]

Lets make a deal everybody!!! I will stop talking about the swift boats vets and certain people on this stop talking about Bush NG record....Fair deal, no

[denoir 0]

Lets make a deal everybody!!! I will stop talking about the swift boats vets and certain people on this stop talking about Bush NG record....Fair deal, no

..eh..no?

The whole thing here is that there is an issue with Bush "I'm a war time president" military service. And the hardcore Bush supporters are trying to make it go away through a smear campaign against Kerry - which everybody but the most hardorce Bush supporters agree is a bunch of BS. And this includes Republicans. McCain for instance was subject to the same treatment.

Bush's and Kerry's military histories are not comparable.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]..eh..no?

The whole thing here is that there is an issue with Bush "I'm a war time president" military service. And the hardcore Bush supporters are trying to make it go away through a smear campaign against Kerry - which everybody but the most hardorce Bush supporters agree is a bunch of BS. And this includes Republicans. McCain for instance was subject to the same treatment.

Bush's and Kerry's military histories are not comparable.

There are ex-president that had wars in their terms that had no military background or seen no combat and did pretty find.

Looks in to George Bush's NG test.... in the "officer quality section" he scored 95 percent better then of those taking the test. Digs a little bit more, he scored a 1206 on the SAT.

Then charge!!!! Old but....

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/07/kerry.exley/

Quote[/b] ]

Kerry hires online chief from MoveOn

Bush camp cries foul

From John Mercurio

CNN Political Unit

Wednesday, April 7, 2004 Posted: 3:53 PM EDT (1953 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- John Kerry has hired an Internet-savvy Democrat to run his presidential campaign's online communications, a move that raises new questions about the link between his campaign and the independent groups that run TV ads on his behalf.

Zach Exley, the director of special projects for the MoveOn PAC, is going to the Kerry campaign to become its director of online communications and organization.

Exley also worked during the Democratic presidential primary for Howard Dean, helping Dean set up his web-based organization.

Since Kerry became the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee in early March, the MoveOn PAC has spent more than $2.5 million on TV ads that attack President Bush.

But under the new campaign-finance law, those efforts cannot be coordinated with the Kerry campaign.

A MoveOn statement said Exley and the staff of all MoveOn entities have agreed that they will not be in contact through the election period to avoid the appearance of coordination, "even though federal election rules permit some forms of communication."

MoveOn has spent roughly $17 million on ads since it started running its "misleader" campaign against Bush last year.

Republicans said Exley's move reinforces their accusations that Kerry and his Democratic allies are circumventing the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law they fought so hard to enact. (GOP challenges anti-Bush ads)

"It's another example of the coordination between MoveOn.org and the Kerry campaign that is illegal under campaign finance law," a Bush campaign official said.

"The Media Fund and MoveOn are functioning as Kerry's slush fund, a shadow Democratic Party that's illegally using soft dollars."

MoveOn became the subject of controversy early this year when it posted two ads on its Web site that compared Bush to Adolf Hitler. The ads were submitted to the group as part of a contest to produce anti-Bush commercials, and Republican Chairman Ed Gillespie said Exley dismissed Republican complaints about them with a barnyard expletive.

"In addition to the obvious questions his hiring raises about further illegal coordination between the Kerry campaign and MoveOn.org, you have to wonder what hiring someone who considers Hitler comparisons to be legitimate political discourse says about the Kerry campaign," Gillespie said in a statement issued Wednesday.

I guess this can link Kerry to Moveon.org. They are running anti-bush ads and one of their top people were hired by Kerry co....

[denoir 0]

There are ex-president that had wars in their terms that had no military background or seen no combat and did pretty find.

Absolutely - I think the military service thing is a big non-issue. But instead of saying that, the Bushies tried to fight fire with fire - but without having any basis for their accusations. It is a pure hate campaign, nothing more.

I do howver believe that any rational person can see that, so in reality I think that the swift boats are doing Kerry a favour by showing the ugly face of the Bush fanatics.

On the other hand if 15% of Americans think that Saddam was behind the WTC attacks, who knows how many believe this crap