Us presidential election 2004

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]Name it. Are you going to tell me that Kerry really didn't compare American soldiers to Gengis Kahn's thugs? I could have SWORN that it was Kerry's voice in that commercial.

1 lie from my head is that Kerry was accused of lying about how he got his medals and forging the reports.

Your turn.

Quote[/b] ]This is a ridiculous argument though. Obviously, Kerry has been benefiting FAR MORE from these 527's than Bush has. This whole FEC BS is just a publicity stunt by the Kerry campaign, and apparently it is working

The difference is that anti Bush campaigns have not been financed and backed up by Kerrys electrial(?) organization.

There is the difference.

Quote[/b] ]How about this: the FEC should investigate possible ties between the Bush campaign and the Swift Boat Veterans for Trush. At the same time, the FEC should investigate possible ties between the Kerry campaign and 527's such as Moveon.org, the media fund, etc. Anyone who would only call for an end to certain 527's on ONE side of the issue is being a hypocrite.

By all means they should do that!

Quote[/b] ]How about we see some debate over the issues and not this stupid crap?

Todays issue in the nes seems to be the poverty in USA:

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (AP) -- The number of Americans living in poverty increased by 1.3 million last year, while the ranks of the uninsured swelled by 1.4 million, the Census Bureau reported Thursday.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/26/census.poverty.ap/index.html

Way to go Bush!!

[turms 0]

EDIT: thx for clearing up Akira. Now i should go to a pub before its too late.

EDIT2: sorry, i tried to edit my previous post but failed miserably

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]As I said I prefer people who do a little free thinking, to some mindless commie republican prole. Dont' just quote stuff at me, argue your case like a man find out what it is your talking about and understand it so you dont have to just quote the party line. By all means point to your research I do too but it is part of a reasoned argument. Not waiving chairman Cheney's little red book.

How many times do I have to tell I'm not an republican!!!!! Until you stop calling me a republican, I'm going to call you a namby pamby lefty

Quote[/b] ]

Veterans are raising a stink about the fact that Kerry called them animals, when in fact he did no such thing. And for the veterans to make it sound like those things never happened in the first place is ridiculous. Not all veterans are paragons of virtue.

Not all vietnam vets witnessed any crimes.

My favorite passage from his very rare "new soldier" book:

"We were sent to Vietnam to kill Communism. But we found instead that we were killing women and children." (kerry quote)

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]How many times do I have to tell I'm not an republican!!!!! Until you stop calling me a republican, I'm going to call you a namby pamby lefty

Why is it so bad to be a "namby pamby leftie"?

Quote[/b] ]Not all vietnam vets witnessed any crimes.

My favorite passage from his very rare "new soldier" book:

"We were sent to Vietnam to kill Communism. But we found instead that we were killing women and children." (kerry quote)

Obviously.

But he wasn't talking about them was he for Christ sake? And that is exactly what he said!

[General Barron 0]

Quote[/b] ]You should read up on your laws. Relevant keywords are "defamation", "libel" and "slander" - all against US law.

The way I was taught it in school, the law looks at these things differently when the supposed "victim" is a celebrity/president/senator. If you consider the swifties ads libel, than surely you would consider some of the stuff coming from the left libel as well?

Quote[/b] ]As I said I prefer people who do a little free thinking, to some mindless commie republican prole.

I find it funny that you would call Republicans commies. At least in theory, republicans are supposed to be bigger supporters of freemarket capitalism than democrats are. However, I'm not a Republican by any stretch of the term. I'm a Libertarian, in fact. So... sticks and stones, boyo.

Quote[/b] ]All of the SBVfT claims about Kerry, including his false Purple Heart, and the account of events leading to his Bronze Star, have been backed up by Navy records, and people that were actually there.

The claims the Swifties are making are based on people that were there as well, in other boats. And many of these navy records were actually written by Kerry. And its the Kerry camp that keeps changing their story on everything. The Swifties haven't been changing their story at all. Be very specific and tell me what they have lied about, otherwise you shouldn't be saying things like that.

Quote[/b] ]Kerry is telling of what he heard, or witnessed. ... Veterans are raising a stink about the fact that Kerry called them animals, when in fact he did no such thing.

You can't seriously be telling me that Kerry didn't accuse vets of commiting war crimes on a day to day basis, can you? I've heard the whole tape, before it was used in the TV ad, and Kerry says "I witnessed this and that". I'll try to find a transcript, but you got to be kidding me with this whole "he is telling of what he heard" crap. You know a lot of those people he "heard" this stuff from weren't even in 'Nam?

Kerry slandered every American over in Vietnam. He sold them out for his own political gain, and that has really pissed a lot of them off. And then for Kerry to make himself out to be a war hero... I respect his service, but he was only there for 4 months; not a full year like most other vets. Of his "3 purple hearts"... one of them was a tiny piece of shrapnel that was removed with tweezers, and one was possibly inflicted by his own grenade. He wasn't crippled, he didn't lose a limb, nothing.... yet he left his "band of brothers" early because he got 3 purple hearts. He never wanted to be in harms way (he said in a book that "I didn't want to get too involved in the war"), and when he signed up for Swiftboat duty, the boats were doing very safe operations. He joined the navy because he knew it would be good for his political career. Why else would he have been taking so many videos of him prancing around with some Army grenades he borrowed?

[General Barron 0]

Quote[/b] ]1 lie from my head is that Kerry was accused of lying about how he got his medals and forging the reports.

Ok, tell me specifically what they accused him of, what their evidence was, and what Kerry's defense is. The stuff that I have heard/read sounds pretty convincing for the Swiftie's side of the story....

Quote[/b] ]Todays issue in the news seems to be the poverty in USA:

Ah yes. And of course, the president has absolutely full control over the economy. There is no congress, there is no free market, there was no 9/11.....

I bet you were one of the ones who was bitching at Bush for causing a recession in his first years, even though the recession started when Clinton was in office.

[walker 0]

Hi General Barron

Quote[/b] ]I find it funny that you would call Republicans commies. At least in theory, republicans are supposed to be bigger supporters of freemarket capitalism than democrats are. However, I'm not a Republican by any stretch of the term. I'm a Libertarian, in fact. So... sticks and stones, boyo.

First of all not aimed at a Republican it is aimed at the Communist tendancy of the republican party. What else would you call a bunch of guys who go round quoting what the party says?

Secondly it was not aimed at you. Typed forum communication is crap at giving the full essence and emotional content od communication:;): hence emoticons which I dont use enough.

As a Libertarian your not that far off being an Anarchist read some Noam Avram Chomsky or Bakunin or Proudhon.

Me I am a Practical Anarchist if you have read Robert Heinlein Time Enough for Love or the Moon is Harsh Mistress loose his occasional bigotry Oh yeh and the incest and his Oedopus complex , and that is about where I spend most of political and philosophical thought.

Kind Regards Walker

PS "The Tale of the Adopted Daughter" in Time Enough For Love is one of the best love stories ever written.

The only thing wrong with the book is the last page it is better without it. When I buy it for friends I stick the last two pages together with tape and tell them not to read them.

Once Again Kind Regards Walker

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Why is it so bad to be a "namby pamby leftie"?  

Ask walker, the namby pamby lefty.

Quote[/b] ]But he wasn't talking about them was he for Christ sake? And that is exactly what he said!

Who was "we".  Here is the epilogue of the "New Soldier" (author...John F Kerry). I see one "lie" in the epilogue...

http://nomayo.mu.nu/archives/New%20Soldier%20Epilogue.pdf

I'm a Vietnam Vet...elect me!! ...

[walker 0]

Quote[/b] ]How many times do I have to tell I'm not an republican!!!!! Until you stop calling me a republican, I'm going to call you a namby pamby lefty

Why is it so bad to be a "namby pamby leftie"?  

Hi Akira

As far as I can tell you aint.

But if you are, then lay on the ground while give you a good kicking then lick my boots clean, say thank you and fetch me a coffee.

The point it is aimed at is General Barron's

Quote[/b] ]It just gives me a warm fuzzy to hear the way you enlightened, tolerant Liberals treat people with diverse views different than your own.

It's kinda like the way Liberals are such champions of Free Speech and the First Amendment. Oh, unless they don't like what is being said. In that case, they will have to take legal action to try to shut you up. Yeah, I really think Kerry is going to support my right to dissent, when he is trying to bully a bunch of war heroes out of their freedom of speech.

Where he makes the inference that if you argue against them and for freedom you are suposed to be a softy.

It is an old fallacy of the Republican Party line one from Chairman Cheneys litle Red Book. The one that says those who argue against them and for freedom should be all nice and compliant while they get their heads kicked in.

Sorry General Barron that is not one I will fall for  

Kind regards Walker

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]In a head-to-head matchup, Bush led Kerry 50%-47% among likely voters, while Kerry led Bush 48%-47% among registered voters. When independent Ralph Nader is included, Bush leads Kerry, 48%-46%, among likely voters. Nader gets 4%.

The poll of 1,004 adults, conducted Monday through Wednesday, had a margin of error of +/3 percentage points. The margin was +/4 points for the subgroups of registered and likely voters.

Bush's favorable rating of 54% was his highest since April. By contrast, Kerry's 52% was his lowest since January.

Quote[/b] ]First of all not aimed at a Republican it is aimed at the Communist tendancy of the republican party.

And if the Republican party has a Communist "tendancy", I'd hate to hear what the Democrat Party has...

Quote[/b] ]What else would you call a bunch of guys who go round quoting what the party says?

"Your average human beings"

Quote[/b] ]You should read up on your laws. Relevant keywords are "defamation", "libel" and "slander" - all against US law.

And calling Bush "Adolf Hitler 2.0" is not at all slanderous ?

[walker 0]

Hi billybob2002

I fully respect your right to argue your side just as you have done over the last pages.

I disrespect when you are just continuously quoting great wooges of stuff from other sources; when it is a simple process to precis it, add your own analysis, quote the important passages, perhaps adding bold for sentences that are particularly important and give the source.

I am not going to be nice.

This is a politics thread it is one of the most important aspects of life you will ever involve your self in. It is what decides what wars you fight, where your taxes are spent, who are your nations friends and enemies, how the poor will be looked after, how your children will be taught etc. etc.

It is far too important to nice on.

Kind Regards Walker

[walker 0]

Quote[/b] ]First of all not aimed at a Republican it is aimed at the Communist tendancy of the republican party.

And if the Republican party has a Communist "tendancy", I'd hate to hear what the Democrat Party has...

There is no card carrying communist tendancy in the democrats they tend toward freedom of expession and thought. You never see them giving up their freedom they fight for it.

Quote[/b] ]What else would you call a bunch of guys who go round quoting what the party says?

"Your average human beings"

Well Marx and Stalin used to call them the apparatchniks only good for doing as they are told, incapable of free original thought.

You would never catch me signing a peice of paper that says I can not question the party line and that I support the leader in order to see a politician speak. Nor would you catch me sacking employees because they spoke out against a cadidate at political rally.

I prefer freedom.

Kind Regards Walker

[Frisbee 0]

And if the Republican party has a Communist "tendancy", I'd hate to hear what the Democrat Party has...

Party members signing deals where they or their (Ex) companies benefit. Giving up freedom for so-called safety. The president being bullied around to follow the ideas of his mainly christian-conservative financers isn't something that appears democratical to me, he doesn't represent every american, just his financers.

Sounds like some communistic tendency to me. (all in all, a lot of this is "standard" in politics. but that doesn't take away the right of people to bitch about it. )

But, in all honesty, I don't think I'll ever understand US politics.

There is no left it seems, and even hardly a centre party, you have a centre-right party (democrats) and a right to sometimes extreme-right party (republicans).

I mean, there's no sign of any form of progression.

Bush : Constitutional ban on gay marriages.

Kerry : no constitutional ban, but not in favour gay marriages either.

Ooooh an idea riddled with controversy...

Anyways, the party financers and the powerful lobbies will always have more of a say in the appointing of leaders and their agenda than silly normal people.

Conservative people are afraid of change, but one day they'll have to change, just because they see that the world is passing them by.

But then again, this conservative feeling is also felt by most people in the US, so it's a normal representation, the US hasn't been doing all that bad for itself with this spirit, this probably won't be changed.

Can't say I like it though.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]There is no card carrying communist tendancy in the democrats they tend toward freedom of expession and thought. You never see them giving up their freedom they fight for it.

1. Promotion of enormous government programs (Though Bushie can be accused of this, he doesn't do it to the extent that carry does it )

2. Determination to purge any sign of religion from any public place

3. Attempting to pass sweeping gun bans (One called for the banning of all semi-automatic weapons )

4. Railing against expensive luxury items, then using the same luxury items

5. Claiming to allow free speech, then shrieking like a cat when someone uses free speech against them (Swift Boats anyone?)

[walker 0]

Hi m21man

1) Bush has spent more on government projects than clinton did. Why do you think you ended up with a defecit?

2) Religion is suposed to be seperate from the state if you want a religious state go live in Iran.

3) The gun in the constitution is to protect the nation it says

Quote[/b] ]Amendment II.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

If you want to bear arms under second ammendment you should join the National Guard. If you are doing it for any other purpose your going against the second ammendment. I have always thought the gun loby's anti second ammendment misquote needs to be dealt with.

4) Specifics please

5. Free speech is fine but lies are lies.

Kind Regards Walker

[General Barron 0]

Quote[/b] ]Where he makes the inference that if you argue against them and for freedom you are suposed to be a softy.

It is an old fallacy of the Republican Party line one from Chairman Cheneys litle Red Book. The one that says those who argue against them and for freedom should be all nice and compliant while they get their heads kicked in.

No one said the dems shouldn't argue back. But I don't see how you are "arguing for freedom" if you try to use the power of government to shut your critics up, which is exactly what Kerry is trying to do. I didn't see Bush reacting to Moore's film in the same way Kerry is reacting to these ads. You tell me who is on the side of free speech there.

And why doesn't Kerry defend himself against the specific charges made by the swift boat vets, instead of just trying to call them a bunch republican puppets? You'd think that if they were wrong and he was right, then he'd point out where they are wrong, instead of just trying to kill the messengers.

Quote[/b] ]4) Specifics please

Lol.... you must have missed the one about how the Kerry family owns an SUV. I think Kerry tried to get around that one by saying "it isn't my car, it's a family car". Oh, but the other SUV owners are evil, I guess.

Then there is the fact that Michael Moore flies around in a private jet, and is driven around in an SUV as well. The LA Times did a nice little report on that when he visited there.

Quote[/b] ]As a Libertarian your not that far off being an Anarchist read some Noam Avram Chomsky or Bakunin or Proudhon.

Um.... on paper, the two may sound the same (both calling for extremely limited government). But from what I've seen/read about anarchists, they seem more like communists than Libertarians to me; i.e., they want to redistribute the wealth and make everyone "equal". And I don't see how bashing in the windows of some Seattle Starbucks in '99 is helping anyone be more equal.

Quote[/b] ]if you have read Robert Heinlein Time Enough for Love or the Moon is Harsh Mistress

Hmm... both books I've seen laying around my dad's house. I still haven't gotten around to reading any Ann Rand books (The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, etc) yet though. Those are kinda "classic" libertarian works, so I think I should... but they are so much thicker than "Give me a Break" by John Stossel.

Edit

@Frisbee

Quote[/b] ]Giving up freedom for so-called safety.

Good! You don't like gun control either, I see.

[Kaliyuga 0]

And calling Bush "Adolf Hitler 2.0" is not at all slanderous

Well they do have their connections, I'm sure Hitler was grateful for all the financial support recieved from the Bush family during WW2.

Hmm... a guy who was in Vietnam, or a guy who's family helped pay for Nazi bullets.

[General Barron 0]

Quote[/b] ]Hmm... a guy who was in Vietnam, or a guy who's family helped pay for Nazi bullets.

Great way to argue a political point of view. Of course, if you take Kerry's own words for the truth, then having served in 'Nam makes you equivalent to a Nazi yourself.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]Of course, if you take Kerry's own words for the truth

You still havent prooven a single thing that Kerry has lied.

[General Barron 0]

And you havent prooven a single thing that the Swifties have lied. But I think it is pretty obvious that it is untrue that "crimes and atrocities were committed on a day to day basis" by the US in the Vietnam war, which Kerry said. But Kerry hasn't even tried to refute what he said--which is why these vets are still pissed off at him. He hasn't apoligised for slandering them yet.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]You still havent prooven a single thing that Kerry has lied.

http://nomayo.mu.nu/archives/New%20Soldier%20Epilogue.pdf

Quote[/b] ]and then made casualities in even greater disproportions (blacks)

Quote[/b] ]

We were sent to Vietnam to kill communism. But we found instead that we were killing women and children

I want somebody to buy "The New Soldier" (it is very expensive and rare) and scan the pages. Kerry does not like talking about his book he "authored" more than 30 years ago.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]And you havent prooven a single thing that the Swifties have lied.

To quote Akira previous page:

Quote[/b] ]All of the SBVfT claims about Kerry, including his false Purple Heart, and the account of events leading to his Bronze Star, have been backed up by Navy records, and people that were actually there.

Members of SBVfT that raise doubts about these events, turn out they weren't even there, including the doctor who claimed to work on Kerry's wound, in direct contradiction to Navy records.

EDIT: Billybob: this was a question if Sfiftliarveterans have made a false aquisition or not. They have.

As For the Kerry statement: do you think that USA didnt kill woman and children there?

[General Barron 0]

From http://swiftvets.com:

For starters:

Quote[/b] ]A large majority of those who served with John Kerry in Swift boats in Vietnam have joined the organization.

Yes, some who served with him have also joined the Kerry campaign (but they aren't Puppets of the Democrats? ). But the majority have joined the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth.

Quote[/b] ]Kerry was the only Swift sailor ever to leave Vietnam without completing the standard one-year tour of duty, other than those who were seriously wounded or killed.

Now, I already told you that one of his Purple Hearts was the result of a piece of shrapnel so tiny it was removed by tweezers. Here is the story behind that medal:

Quote[/b] ]At the target location Kerry saw a group of sampans unloading something on the shore, and lit a flare to illuminate the area. The men from the sampans ran, and Kerry and his crew opened fire. At that point, according to Kerry, "My M-16 jammed, and as I bent down in the boat to grab another gun, a stinging piece of heat socked into my arm and just seemed to burn like hell." (page 147, "Tour of Duty") Kerry and his men strafed the beach, shot up the sampans and returned to Cam Ranh Bay.

As an officer in command (OIC) in training, Kerry reported during this mission to William Schachte, who eventually retired as a Rear Admiral. Schachte flatly contradicts Kerry's claim to have been wounded by enemy fire, saying that after his M-16 jammed, Kerry picked up an M-79 grenade launcher and fired a grenade that exploded too close to the boat, causing a small piece of shrapnel to stick in the skin of his arm. Kerry himself did not report receiving hostile fire that night, which would have been required, and there is no record of hostile fire for the mission.

Kerry succeeded in keeping the small piece of shrapnel in his arm until the following day, when he was treated by Dr. Louis Letson, whose version of the event matches William Schachte's account rather than Kerry's

Yes, Akira is correct: the doctor who treated his wound wasn't even there. I don't see how that changes the fact that:

Quote[/b] ]The wound was covered with a bandaid.

As said by the doctor who treated the wound. Wow, thats some wound... even if it was obtained from enemy fire, I would hardly think that qualifies him for a purple heart.

Now, of course figuring out the truth would be easier, if Kerry would disclose his full service records (as was demanded of Bush, who did so):

Quote[/b] ]Constructing a complete picture of Kerry's service is difficult due to gaps in the Naval records provided by the Kerry campaign. These gaps include missing and incomplete fitness reports, missing medical records and missing records related to his medal awards.

If he doesn't have anything to hide, then why wouldn't he release those records?

Quote[/b] ]The following morning, John Kerry arrived at the office of Coastal Division 14 Commander Grant Hibbard to apply for a Purple Heart. Having already been informed by Schachte that Kerry's injury was self-inflicted rather than the result of hostile fire, Commander Hibbard told him to "forget it." Hibbard recently said of Kerry's minor scratch, "I’ve seen worse injuries from a rose thorn."

Nevertheless, John Kerry managed to obtain his coveted Purple Heart for this incident nearly three months later after being transferred to Coastal Division 11. The circumstances remain obscure, as there are no written records of this award on file at the Naval Historical Center. Various other documents that might shed light on this award remain unavailable due to Senator Kerry's refusal to release his complete military records.

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE:

KERRY CAMPAIGN BACKTRACKS ON FIRST PURPLE HEART AWARD

Campaign Says May Have Been Self-Inflicted

Well, would you look at that! It seems that Kerry is admitting that the swift vets.... just may... be.... right. I dunno, maybe Kerry is just a republican puppet too.  

And then there is this little gem, which it takes a Clinton-esque lie to call false:

Quote[/b] ]It is a matter of public record that John Kerry lied before Congress when he falsely portrayed his fellow service personnel in Vietnam as rapists and baby killers. John Kerry claimed that American troops were guilty of “crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command,†and that we “personally raped†and otherwise brutalized innocent civilians. Kerry specifically accused Swift boat personnel of “showing the flag and firing at sampans and villages along the banks†and “butchering a lot of innocent people.†None of that is true.

It's kinda hard to debate that one, when he said it on the Senate floor, and it's on tape and all. Hmm... I guess they just made those tapes on a computer or something though....

EDIT

Quote[/b] ]As For the Kerry statement: do you think that USA didnt kill woman and children there?

Good, you aren't trying to deny what Kerry said above, and in the TV ad. Yes, of course war crimes were committed in the Vietnam war by the US, just like they have been committed in EVERY war fought by EVERY country in the world. However, Kerry claimed that such things occured "on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command". THAT statement slandered EVERY one of his "brothers" who fought in Vietnam. It is also a baldfaced, disgraceful lie. It is disgusting that this man would say those kinds of things, and then run for president claiming to be a war hero who is proud of his service.

EDIT #2

Quote[/b] ]Military personnel who witness crimes and atrocities have an absolute duty to report them to their superiors. Senator Kerry did not report a single instance of criminal behavior. If he had indeed witnessed the atrocities about which he testified to Congress, he should have reported them.

[turms 0]

You are linking storys to swiftvets.com. when i am linking to reuters, bbc and cnn.

You are noth worth my attention if you really think that swiftvets.com is a reliable site. You have failed to proove anything i have asked for. Bye.

[DB-ERAUPilot 0]

I'm sooooo sick of these "swift vets" BULLSHIT if I ever run across the other of "unfit for duty" he's gonna get a first class all american ass kickin!! how the hell this has become the focus of the election I have no clue....