The "community"

[m21man 0]

Oh God, not Something Awful. You know, there's a reason it's called "Something Awful". Browse around, you might find that post about the guy who liked to lick his daughter's panties     . You could try the CS forum review for more tame fare, the usual idiots asking for CD keys and such .

Edit - Linking to a picture of a stupid post is against the rules? Well, I'm off to the CS forums to rustle me up some examples of stupidity in action .

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Not to be a buzzkill, but linking to SA is verboten. Not a huge offense, but you might want to remove the link before old man Placebo comes 'round

[hellfish6 7]

One thing that we discussed a while ago internally at CoC was the possibility of creating an "ModMaker Council" where all the larger mod groups could in a spirit of cooperation and furthering OFP development, exchange ideas, agree on common standards etc.. This could be in the form of a forum where each mod team would have a representative and where discussions could be held on a regular basis.

We discussed it a while ago, but during our development of UA, we were discouraged by the overt animosity between various mod teams.

I still think it would be a good step towards true cooperation, but I don't know how much interest there is among other mod teams for such an initiative.

I, unfortunately, don't see this happening. I remember there was some discussion about it maybe a year ago. There were a lot of expectations and a lot of momentum, but it just kind of fizzled out. I seem to remember that the JAM idea was spawned by this short-lived movement, though.

The problem with online communities like this is that it's SO easy to just walk away from it. All our connections are easily cut off to each other, so while someone might be really active for a week, they'll dissappear the next.

I'm guilty of this too, as I had started an OFP clan back in December of 2000 and it was going great, but within a year I'd walked out on it, much to my dissappointment today. I'm sure anyone else who has ever been in a clan, which is the easiest kind of online community to belong to (you only play games with each other) , has experienced this high rate of attrition as well.

I imagine the temptation to do this is much higher with addon teams, especially large ones like a "ModMaker Council" would be. One small disagreement (like ammunition damage values or engagement ranges) will be enough to cause the whole project to fall apart. Look at JAM for example - I love the thing and I think a large part of the community does too, but it hasn't caught on with any mod or addon team and it is thus woefully underused. I remember that some addon makers wouldn't even make their addons JAM-compatible (which IIRC only requires a line or two to the unit's config) without putting up a huge fight about it because of some real of perceived error within the JAM system.

I'd like to think that our community, especially our addon makers, could come together and produce more cooperative projects. I don't see how that can happen at present. Maybe it's the fact that OFP is a double-edged sword - it's very easy to modify and because of that it's very hard to come to a consensus about those modifications. Is there anything BIS could do to fix this for OFP2? Come up with a set of standards or something?

[hellfish6 7]

@ Feb. 02 2004,19:41)]Not to be a buzzkill, but linking to SA is verboten. Not a huge offense, but you might want to remove the link before old man Placebo comes 'round  

Or "handsome young stud Hellfish."

[Mr. Snrub 0]

You know, there's a reason it's called "Something Awful".

That's the joke.

[Mr. Snrub 0]

The problem with online communities like this is that it's SO easy to just walk away from it. All our connections are easily cut off to each other, so while someone might be really active for a week, they'll dissappear the next.

Quite right, and I also think that the Internet is a channel for bad attitudes, as anyone can be disagreeable or hostile for no real reason other than that they can - much like the animosity Denoir was discussing.

The prevailing attitude on the Internet (a huge generalisation) does seem to be a negative one. It takes more effort to be conciliatory and constructive towards others online, and a much greater effort to create a functioning forum that won't collapse due to disinterest or hostility.

That's why this forum (and the OFP community in general) seems to be an anomaly of sorts on the Internet. You have the unavoidable confrontations, but this is overshadowed - at least for me - by the incredibly constructive discussions/help and the number of addons that are being released.

[Winters 1]

Deadmeat,

As long as there are computers and the internet, you will have to be subjected to every moron spouting utter bollocks at every oppurtunity just to make themselves feel like a big shot. The people who really make up the community are too busy having fun playing/making missions with all the cool addons that are out, that when they do have the chance to offer up some constructive advice its usually lost in the deluge of all the negativity.

EDIT; there are so many great addons out that mission makers can't even keep up with them. i dont know what else to say, it sux that people have nothing else to do than to whine and complain or claim they are the "all knowing" of all things, but we just have to deal with them and drive on.

[shinRaiden 0]

The vast majority of the "plz add this" posts could be answered merely by searching the forums. I may have been guilty of asking for the multi-turret feature on something right after I started cruising the forums, but I never asked twice, and I reminded others of that.

I'm not in, nor have I been in any armed service. The best I know is from chinooks flying overhead for alpine SAR missions, or driving past strykers on training ONCE while on a service call. Therefore, I am in no way qualified to declare the right or wrong way, and if I did, I would have enough material to require a pm channel anyway.

There are new folks (like me) still joining OFP. I would like to see an abbreviated FAQ of known issues pinned in the Addons:Discussion forum listing stuff like all the turret/vehicle type limits, so that n00bs know what not to ask for, and also to use as a basic overview of addon development functions.

I think OFP, because of its nature, is fortunate to have a large amount of maturer players, as well as a good portion of people with real military experinence. That tends to make people more disciplined, but I presume lowers your tolerence for idiotic crap, right? Thank you for what you do. Now if only I could figure out how to make Oxygen work... then I'd make a cube.

[cozza 24]

all i goto say is DM and all addon makers in the OFP community is with out your help the community will have been dead a long time ago and nobody would care about flashpoint 2. So in return. NOW I'M GONNA LEARN O2. Cos after reading this. I've ust downloaded 100 houndreds of addons. With out returning a thing. i owe the flashpoint community a lot of Missions and Addons and anims.

*edit*- adding a word

[Placebo 28]

The idea of the post, as Rom so astutely pointed out a few posts back, is to inject some common decency, and some drastically needed MANNERS back into this community.

Nice motives and all, but the simple fact is, the kind of person in the community you're aiming at is the kind of person who won't bother to read a thread like this. The best way to get to them is simply to teach by example, if they bitch and whine politely and patiently explain your side, if you don't have the time or inclination to do that you then simply ignore them.

[Ironsight 1]

The idea of the post, as Rom so astutely pointed out a few posts back, is to inject some common decency, and some drastically needed MANNERS back into this community.

Nice motives and all, but the simple fact is, the kind of person in the community you're aiming at is the kind of person who won't bother to read a thread like this. The best way to get to them is simply to teach by example, if they bitch and whine politely and patiently explain your side, if you don't have the time or inclination to do that you then simply ignore them.

That's an idea, but I can understand that if you're talking to a 12 year know-it-all it is hard to keep your patience! Take this example: You've been working at an addon for month's, done a lot of research, put all your free time in it, etc. etc. etc. And when you release it there's someone who simply says it stinks. Unfunded criticism, you can't give a good answer back to people like them, so don't waste your valuable time to a know-it-all and answer the funded comments

RESPECT THE ADDONMAKERS!

[theavonlady 2]

I have a suggestion that might help show just how much strong support there is for the OFP editing community.

Can someone make a 100x100 OFP mission/addon/mod maker solidarity ribbon icon. You know, this shaped type of ribbon:

but with a motif/design that's appropriate for OFP?

I'd be glad to pin it onto my forum sig.

If these turn up all over the forum, addon makers and others that devote their time to betterring the game will constantly have positive proof that their work is always appreciated by the vast majority of the community.

[Stag 0]

Quote[/b] ]the camo is wrong etc. And its not even ALPHA yet...

I made that comment because it happens to be true. Don't you think it would be better to be informed while it is still an alpha than a few months down the line?

What happened to Martin was totally unwarranted. I was disgusted by the number of people who branded him an egotist when he pulled the plug. But it seems that here ANY discussion regarding an addon, meant to be constrtuctive or not which doesn't include the phrase "I want to have your children" or something equally sycophantic is to be classed as flaming.

Okay, from now on I'll keep quiet. Accept my thanks for the addons you have done and the addons you undoubtably will create. No more criticism. But also take it as read that I will never, ever, want to have your children.

[Stag 0]

Now if only I could figure out how to make Oxygen work... then I'd make a cube.

Start here.

[aj_addons 0]

i think one of the main rules in addon making is dont slag off something you cant do yourself, for example im a 3d modeler for rhs and cant texture or script to save myself and i dont go around telling people that there textures are piss cause i know i couldnt do it and at least they have tried.

[Stag 0]

i think one of the main rules in addon making is dont slag off something you cant do yourself, for example im a 3d modeler for rhs and cant texture or script to save myself and i dont go around telling people that there textures are piss cause i know i couldnt do it and at least they have tried.

I never said they were piss, I said they weren't quite right. There's a world of difference.

[aj_addons 0]

i wasnt talking about you or anybody dont be so touchy mate

[Gollum1 0]

Tex says it so well, exactly what I was thinking.

[Bobby - CSLA team 0]

Maybe this thread was little bit inspired by my long monoloue on CSLA thread. A lot of arguments were said there and I will not repeat them again. Only I want pinpoint, that this community has really problem. I think that community is such as it is created by people in community. If there are some rules which are visible for everybody, then community behaves according to them. If somebody don't see any rules (in common sence) and it seems that everything is allowed, than he/she behaves according to that. I don't speak about censorship but atmosphere which is created by "old" and "wise" members of community. Do you know this old story about twenty monkeys in small room? In the middle of the room is a ladder and on the top is big banana. Everytime when any monkey try to climb ladder to get the price, veeery cold water is sprayed into whole room. In several days when any monkey is closing to ladder other ones immediately beat her. After that every day one "old" and "wise" monkey is removed from room and replaced by another new one. New one immediately goes for banana but is brutally beated. After several days another "old" and "wise" monkey is removed from room and replaced by another new one. When this second new ape goes for banana previous monkey beat her as well even more brutally. After following 18 changes of old monkeys, new monkeys beat new ladder climbers even they don't know why. So this is community thinking either in good or bad direction. Sorry for the long tale.

I don't want to take into this thread separate examples of what bad happened to CSLA because of peoples attitude, what we think is different than is commonly said etc.. But what makes me really sad is that such a things in community forced MAA to be seriously thinking about leaving the OFP community. I worked on CSLA about 30-40 hours/week for last year, I have 9 month (atm) daughter and after such a experience I am asking myself whether worth it.

But I strongly agree that some change in community is needed and I can say that CSLA will support any proper and acceptable activity/initiative.

What I have read here is "old" and "wise" core of community, mostly adult people. Good place to start. What about start with some version of ribbon as sign of supporters of new initiative?

[Ironsight 1]

The ribbon is a great idea! Maybe also lay down a code of honor

[m21man 0]

How about a blood-encrusted axe avatar for people who want to thoughtfully criticize an addon ?

[MEDICUS 0]

I have a suggestion that might help show just how much strong support there is for the OFP editing community.

Can someone make a 100x100 OFP mission/addon/mod maker solidarity ribbon icon. You know, this shaped type of ribbon:

http://www.tcunion.org/ptisite/resource/images/home/RIBBON3.jpg

but with a motif/design that's appropriate for OFP?

I'd be glad to pin it onto my forum sig.

If these turn up all over the forum, addon makers and others that devote their time to betterring the game will constantly have positive proof that their work is always appreciated by the vast majority of the community.

hmm, perhaps something like this:

                                                      

(It's 74x74 [92kb] cause the 100x100 would brake the 100kb-rule (157kb])

[CanadianTerror 0]

That monkey story frightens and confuses me.

[dm 9]

But what makes me really sad is that such a things in community forced MAA to be seriously thinking about leaving the OFP community. I worked on CSLA about 30-40 hours/week for last year, I have 9 month (atm) daughter and after such a experience I am asking myself whether worth it.

This is exactly whay I'm trying to get across.

Its not just BAS (maybe we are "brave" or vocal enough to air our feelings) but EVERY other mod maker. I can honestly say that I have NEVER seen a single addon that hasnt attracted un-necessary flak from the "n00bs".

What people still haven't answered is WHY we should have to put up with it?

Yes, its the internet, and yes we "should" expect it, but WHY do we HAVE to put up with it?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not "whingeing" per say, I just want a straight answer to that question. So far, no one has been able to give me one.

Equally, @wardog, this ISN'T about wanting pure praise, ass kissing and statements like "I want your babies." This is about moving away from that too, towards a more structured and mature way of responding to addons. The people who say "I want your babies" are actually the ones I tend to ignore. The reason I personally tend to "focus" on the "negative" elements of the thread is because THEY are the posts which often do have information about bugs in, but its trawling through the "this is crap/shit/bollocks/a waste of time because xxx sucks" that brings you down. I couldn't care less about what people THINK of the addon, its the "xxx bit is wrong" that I'm interested in. But WHY do people HAVE to post the "this is crap/shit/etc..." before hand? This is what I'm about. We welcome critisim, we welcome bug reports, after all when we fix the bugs it makes it more enjoyable for us too. But why post the foul language or personal/mod attacks beforehand? Thats what I want to know...

Quote[/b] ]One thing that we discussed a while ago internally at CoC was the possibility of creating an "ModMaker Council" where all the larger mod groups could in a spirit of cooperation and furthering OFP development, exchange ideas, agree on common standards etc.. This could be in the form of a forum where each mod team would have a representative and where discussions could be held on a regular basis.

We discussed it a while ago, but during our development of UA, we were discouraged by the overt animosity between various mod teams.

I still think it would be a good step towards true cooperation, but I don't know how much interest there is among other mod teams for such an initiative.

And what causes this animosity? Afterall, we're all aiming for the same thing right? I think that at the end of the day, it boils down to a "my cock is bigger than yours" argument...

I'll use JAM as an example.

When we first started the initative, we emailed/pm'ed/contacted as many of the mods as we could. Suchey even set up an area on his forums to aid development. But most people didn't bother replying, or just didn't deem it necessary to. Then, when JAM was released, a certain team (will remain nameless) complained that the values for the russian weapons were poor. What I don't understand, is how the team can complain about it AFTER they declined to help, and they have reverted to using their own values which are apparently "superior" to JAM. Then, one after another, other teams started droping out in favour of their "superior" values. Even after we had offered them all the chances for their input possible...

The same goes for the hundreds of different M4 variants out there. People make their own version for the simple reason that they cant find it in themselves to ask for permission to use someone elses work... Sheer madness if you ask me...

The question is, what can be done about it?

[Poet 0]

So long as you enjoy what you are doing, what should it matter what anyone else says or thinks? I make ( *made ) missions for me and me alone, if others enjoy them, then bonus, if not, then I've not lost anything.

I once spent 3 months solidly working on a Map for the Quake 3 Rally Mod. It was ( I think ) original and really damn cool, but only one other person in the whole Mod community had a positive word to say about it. The rest whined and complained about every part of it.

The Mod team sadly folded a few weeks later, so my map never got played by the masses ...

The point is, I still boot up my copy of Q3Rally and have a blast round my track and always have a smile on my face knowing that I acheived something that pleased me and that I enjoyed doing it.

A.  Its a game.

B. D1ckheads are a sad part of life on planet Earth.

C. NEVER NEVER TAKE THE INTERNET SERIOUSLY!!!