The Iraq thread 3

[theavonlady 2]

The core problem is that they went out in public first and said "Saddam has WMD in his closet" and then they asked the intelligence agencies to investigate it. It was first after a whole bunch of anti-Iraq rethorics that the agencies went to work. Instead of having a neutral picture they were biased. They made assumptions before investigating - which is a cardinal error in intelligence gathering. The world is a complex place, full of contradictory information. If you decide on a theory before the intelligence gathering then you will have no problem finding evidence for that theory, no matter how outlandish it is.

So when Clinton said the same thing back in 1998, you're saying he made asumptions before investigating?

And if so, those investigations already concluded that Saddam was a danger, possibly even before Bush came to the White House?

Really?

[denoir 0]

The core problem is that they went out in public first and said "Saddam has WMD in his closet" and then they asked the intelligence agencies to investigate it. It was first after a whole bunch of anti-Iraq rethorics that the agencies went to work. Instead of having a neutral picture they were biased. They made assumptions before investigating - which is a cardinal error in intelligence gathering. The world is a complex place, full of contradictory information. If you decide on a theory before the intelligence gathering then you will have no problem finding evidence for that theory, no matter how outlandish it is.

So when Clinton said the same thing back in 1998, you're saying he made asumptions before investigating?

And if so, those investigations already concluded that Saddam was a danger, possibly even before Bush came to the White House?

Really?

When Clinton said it in 1998, it might have been true, for all we know. He did however not invade Iraq on the basis of the available intelligence.

Both the Bush and the Blair admistrations made special 'pre-war' dossiers with supposedly new intelligence. What Powell presented at the UN wasn't Clinton-era intelligence. The M16 Iraq briefs weren't Clinton-era intelligence. It was stuff collected after Bush had publicly announced that Iraq had WMD.

There was a serious intelligence gap between '98 and '03. Other countries pointed that out and then Bush and Blair went ahead with new intelligence collection and analyses that supposedly filled that gap.

[theavonlady 2]

The core problem is that they went out in public first and said "Saddam has WMD in his closet" and then they asked the intelligence agencies to investigate it. It was first after a whole bunch of anti-Iraq rethorics that the agencies went to work. Instead of having a neutral picture they were biased. They made assumptions before investigating - which is a cardinal error in intelligence gathering. The world is a complex place, full of contradictory information. If you decide on a theory before the intelligence gathering then you will have no problem finding evidence for that theory, no matter how outlandish it is.

So when Clinton said the same thing back in 1998, you're saying he made asumptions before investigating?

And if so, those investigations already concluded that Saddam was a danger, possibly even before Bush came to the White House?

Really?

When Clinton said it in 1998, it might have been true, for all we know. He did however not invade Iraq on the basis of the available intelligence.

Like your original opinion I quoted above, you speculate. Keep it simple. The CIA goofed big time, way before Bush was in office. As Balschoiw just said above:

Did you know that the USA didn´t even have a single CIA agent in Iraq since 1990 ?

But that and the Senate Commitee's fresh conclusions that the false anaysis bubbled from the bottom up and not the top down doesn't stop some people from continuing to fantasize about Bush the master liar.

Quote[/b] ]Both the Bush and the Blair admistrations made special 'pre-war' dossiers with supposedly new intelligence.

And where did this intelligence come from? The bottom up, once again. The "new" intelligence from US and UK spooks only fortified the already-existing old analysis that Saddam was indeed an imminent threat. It just added fuel to the fire.

And as this AP item states about today's news in the UK:

"No single individual is to blame. This was a collective operation in which there were the failures we have identified but there was no deliberate attempt on the part of the government to mislead," Butler told a news conference.

I wonder why your posted BBC article left that out.

Quote[/b] ]What Powell presented at the UN wasn't Clinton-era intelligence.

Did Powell take those photos himself? No.

Quote[/b] ]The M16 Iraq briefs weren't Clinton-era intelligence. It was stuff collected after Bush had publicly announced that Iraq had WMD.

Of course! It only reenfoced the existing overblown analysis of Iraq's threat.

Quote[/b] ]There was a serious intelligence gap between '98 and '03.

I would go back way before 1998.

Quote[/b] ]Other countries pointed that out and then Bush and Blair went ahead with new intelligence collection and analyses that supposedly filled that gap.

The gap was always there but the intelligence agencies of both countries filled it in with overblown assessements, before and after 1998.

Bush and Blair were given a face value opinion that was the result of an incompetent analysis.

Bottoms up!

[DarkLight 0]

Bottoms up!

Wow...

I sure hope it's because of my bad english but what i'm reading here sounds VERY strange to me...

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]

The gap was always there but the intelligence agencies of both countries filled it in with overblown assessements, before and after 1998.

Bush and Blair were given a face value opinion that was the result of an incompetent analysis.

In 1998 the inspectors left Iraq and up to their return in 2003 there was no information coming from Iraq except from highly questionable sources. That's the gap. If the intelligence was faulty before is of no consequence as a five year gap could equally be a 100 year gap. It's such a time span that you need to get new intelligence anyway.

And you can't say that poor Bush and Blair were misled by the bad intelligence output because the DSGE, the BND, the GRU and finally the UNMOVIC all said that the existing intelligence was rotten. They recognized that there was an intelligence gap and said so loudly. It did not change the minds of B&B because they had already made up their mind. And sure enough, the intelligence agencies got the hint and found evidence, any evidence that would support what their leaders had said.

Quote[/b] ]But that and the Senate Commitee's fresh conclusions that the false anaysis bubbled from the bottom up and not the top down doesn't stop some people from continuing to fantasize about Bush the master liar.

Bushs Iraq rethorics weren't triggered by alerts from the intelligence community. The intelligence community started its work after Bush began his rethorics.

And one should be very cautious with the senate report, as they're in the same seat as Bush. They are at the top. It's the fox guarding the henhouse.

[theavonlady 2]

Bottoms up!

Wow...

I sure hope it's because of my bad english but what i'm reading here sounds VERY strange to me...

It is a phrase usually used as a toast before you gulp down a strong drink.

By turning the glass's bottom up, you swallow the drink.

Here's mud in your eye!

[bn880 5]

Did you know that the USA didn´t even have a single CIA agent in Iraq since 1990 ?

So where are the sources for this bulletproof "intel" they kept talking about ?

http://www.addamsfamily.com/addams/afmama1.jpg

?

No no, I asked her and she also said there were no WMD's ROFL

That report coming from Britian today is another joke, as usual. FYI, considering very questionable sources as actual evidence is lying on behalf of Intel agencies. And it is stil lthe responsibility of the reader to request to see/hear actual evidence. eh

[Balschoiw 0]

Meanwhile back in Iraq:

Mosul governor killed as Baghdad blast kills 11

Quote[/b] ]A suspected suicide car bombing has killed 11 people and wounded 30 in the first big guerrilla attack in Baghdad since an interim Iraqi government took over from U.S.-led occupiers on June 28.

"This is naked aggression against the Iraqi people," said Prime Minister Iyad Allawi, standing by burnt-out vehicles near a main entrance to the heavily defended "Green Zone" compound.

"We will bring these criminals to justice," he vowed.

Gunmen killed the governor of Mosul, Osama Kashmoula, and his two bodyguards in a grenade attack on his convoy on Wednesday as he was driving towards the northern city.

Kashmoula was the most senior official to be assassinated in Iraq since May, when a suicide bomber killed the head of Iraq's now-defunct Governing Council.

A U.S. military spokesman said 11 Iraqis had been killed, including four National Guards, and 30 wounded in the Baghdad blast.

Deafened passers-by and a man with blood oozing from his chest staggered from the site of the explosion.

"My God, my God," screamed one panicked woman among the scores of workers, visitors and journalists lining up for security checks to get into the U.S.-defended area.

The blast occurred hours after news that Islamist militants led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi had killed one of two Bulgarian truck drivers held hostage in Iraq. They threatened to kill the second within 24 hours unless U.S.-led forces freed prisoners.

Bulgaria said it would not pull its 470 troops out of Iraq despite the killing of the driver and the plight of the other.

In stark contrast, the Philippines was preparing to bring its soldiers home early to save the life of a Filipino hostage.

"He is safe and there is no more risk of him being executed," said a Foreign Ministry official in Manila, referring to kidnapped truck driver Angelo de la Cruz.

A Saudi company said it was ready to quit Iraq to meet the demands of militants holding an Egyptian truck driver hostage.

"We will withdraw our operation there to save the life of the hostage, our driver," Faisal al-Neheit, owner of Faisal al-Neheit Transport Company, where Mohammed al-Gharabawi has worked for eight years, told Al Jazeera television.

The Baghdad blast occurred at a checkpoint where cars queue for access to the sprawling Green Zone beside the river Tigris. It houses government buildings, the U.S. and British embassies, and the offices of many foreign contractors.

SECURITY NIGHTMARE

The entrance has long been recognised as a tempting target for bombers, but despite elaborate fortifications, people forced to wait just outside the zone have remained vulnerable.

"At 9:15 a.m. this morning a vehicle pulled into the search lane and tried to get into the control point and detonated," a U.S. officer said. "We're pretty sure it was a suicide bomber."

Allawi said he believed the bomb attack was a response to a crackdown on criminals, referring to police raids that have netted more than 500 suspects in Baghdad this week.

Guerrillas clashed with a U.S. patrol in the western city of Ramadi, a bastion of Sunni Muslim insurgents, and a hospital doctor said three people had been killed and 19 wounded.

Iraqi police officer Nawaf Jabbar said a U.S. vehicle had been destroyed and several soldiers wounded in gun battles.

The Baghdad bombing coincided with a public holiday to mark Iraq's 1958 coup that toppled the British-backed monarchy.

In the southern city of Najaf, police said they had arrested members of a cell linked to al Qaeda on Wednesday and blamed for bomb attacks in Najaf and Kerbala that killed scores of people.

Death threats still hung over the three foreign hostages.

Al Jazeera said it would not air a video tape from Zarqawi's Tawheed and Jihad group showing the beheading of the Bulgarian. But it showed him blindfolded in an orange jumpsuit kneeling before three masked men.

Bulgarian media identified the dead man as Georgi Lazov, 30. He was kidnapped with Ivailo Kepov, 32, after they had delivered cars in Mosul on June 27.

Militants led by Zarqawi, a Jordanian who Washington describes as its top target in Iraq and a suspected al Qaeda ally, have already beheaded an American and a South Korean.

Zarqawi warned Allawi that he will not escape death at the hands of the militant group, according to a statement dated July 8 and posted on an Islamist Web site on Wednesday.

Another group has said it will kill de la Cruz unless Manila withdraws its troops by July 20, a month earlier than planned.

The terrorists achieve what they want. Philipine troops are leaving the country, Saudi company leaves the country, attacks, bombs, coaltion troops injured, vehicles destroyed, governor killed, mission accomplished !

[bn880 5]

Meanwhile back in Iraq:

Every time you say that I get this mental picture of something bad going down, lo and behold that's what it is :P

[denoir 0]

Police station bombed; 10 dead, Pipelines attacked [bBC]

I won't bother quoting the article, you know the story already.

[Balschoiw 0]

Flaws Cited in Powell's U.N. Speech on Iraq

Quote[/b] ]Days before Secretary of State Colin L. Powell was to present the case for war with Iraq to the United Nations  , State Department analysts found dozens of factual problems in drafts of his speech, according to new documents contained in the Senate report on intelligence failures released last week.

Two memos included with the Senate report listed objections that State Department experts lodged as they reviewed successive drafts of the Powell speech. Although many of the claims considered inflated or unsupported were removed through painstaking debate by Powell and intelligence officials, the speech he ultimately presented contained material that was in dispute among State Department experts.

Powell's Feb. 5, 2003, speech to the U.N. Security Council was crafted by the CIA (news - web sites) at the behest of the White House. Intended to be the Bush administration's most compelling case by one of its most credible spokesmen that a confrontation with Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) was necessary, the speech has become a central moment in the lead-up to war.

The speech also has become a point of reference in the failure of U.S. intelligence. Although Powell has said he struggled to ensure that all of his arguments were sound and backed by intelligence from several sources, it nonetheless became a key example of how the administration advanced false claims to justify war.

Powell has expressed disappointment that, after working to remove dubious claims, the intelligence backing the remaining points of his U.N. speech has turned out to be flawed.

"It turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong, and in some cases deliberately misleading, and for that I am disappointed and I regret it," Powell said in May. A State Department spokesman said late Wednesday, however, that the United States made the right decision "to go into Iraq, and the world today is safer because we did."

Offering the first detailed look at claims that were stripped from the case for war advanced by Powell, a Jan. 31, 2003, memo cataloged 38 claims to which State Department analysts objected. In response, 28 were either removed from the draft or altered, according to the Senate report, which was released Friday and included scathing criticism of the CIA and other U.S. intelligence services.

The analysts, describing many of the claims as "weak" and assigning grades to arguments on a 5-star scale, warned Powell against making an array of allegations they deemed implausible. They also warned against including Iraqi communications intercepts they deemed ambiguous and against speculating that terrorists might "come through Baghdad and pick-up biological weapons" as if they were stocked on store shelves.

The documents underscore the extent to which administration and intelligence officials were culling a vast collection of thinly sourced claims as they sought to assemble the case for war. But the origin and full scope of some errors remain unclear because Senate investigators were denied access to a number of relevant documents, according to aides involved in the probe.

The CIA rejected requests for initial versions of what became the Powell presentation on the grounds that they were internal working documents and not finished products. And the Republican-controlled committee did not seek access to a 40-plus-page document that was prepared by Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites)'s office and submitted to State Department speechwriters detailing the case the administration wanted Powell to make.

According to the Senate report, the idea for the speech originated in December 2002, when the National Security Council instructed the CIA to prepare a public response to Iraq's widely criticized 12,000-page declaration claiming that it had no banned weapons. It wasn't until late January 2003 that intelligence officials learned their work would form the basis for a speech Powell would give to the United Nations.

Powell and several of his aides then spent several days at CIA headquarters working on drafts of the speech, in what participants have described as sessions marked by heated arguments over what to include.

When Powell appeared before the U.N., he made a series of sweeping assertions that have crumbled under postwar scrutiny — including claims that Iraq had chemical weapons stockpiles, was pursuing nuclear weapons and that "there can be no doubt that Saddam Hussein has biological weapons and the capability to rapidly produce more, many more."

But the documents in the Senate report show that earlier drafts of the speech contained dozens of additional, disputed claims; they provide the most detailed glimpse to date into the last-minute scramble to strike those claims from the text.

Several of the dubious statements in the early drafts had to do with alleged Iraqi efforts to thwart weapons inspections that had been restarted by the U.N.

One allegation was that Iraq was trying to keep incriminating weapons files from falling into the hands of inspectors by having operatives carry the sensitive documents around in cars. The State Department reviewers called the claim "highly questionable" and warned that it would invite scorn from critics and U.N. inspection officials.

Another claim was that Iraq was having members of its intelligence services pose as weapons scientists to dupe U.N. inspectors. But the State Department noted that such a ruse was "not credible" because of the level of sophistication it would require.

 

"Interviews typically involve such topics as nuclear physics, microbiology, rocket science and the like," the State Department reviewers wrote, indicating that even a well-rehearsed intelligence operative would be hard-pressed to pull off such a charade.

In their critique, State Department analysts repeatedly warned that Powell was being put in the position of drawing the most sinister conclusions from satellite images, communications intercepts and human intelligence reports that had alternative, less-incriminating explanations.

In one section that remained in the speech, Powell showed aerial images of a supposed decontamination vehicle circling a suspected chemical weapons site.

"We caution," State Department analysts wrote, "that Iraq has given … what may be a plausible account for this activity — that this was an exercise involving the movement of conventional explosives."

The presence of a water truck "is common in such an event," they concluded.

The experts labeled as "weak" a claim that a photograph of an Iraqi with "marks on his arm" was evidence that Baghdad was conducting biological experiments on humans. The language was struck from the speech, although Powell told the Security Council that Iraq had been conducting such experiments since the 1980s.

State Department analysts also made it clear that they disagreed with CIA and other analysts on the allegation that aluminum tubes imported by Iraq were for use in a nuclear weapons program. "We will work with our [intelligence community] colleagues to fix some of the more egregious errors in the tubes discussion," the memo said.

In the speech, Powell acknowledged disagreement among analysts on the tubes, but included the claim. The Senate report concluded last week that the tubes were for conventional rockets.

In a section on nuclear weapons, the analysts argued against using a communications intercept they described as "taken out of context" and "highly misleading." There is no more information on what was in the intercept, but Powell in his speech referred to intercepted communications that he said showed that "Iraq front companies sought to buy machines that can be used to balance gas centrifuge rotors."

Aside from the two memos, the Senate report refers to other language that was deleted from drafts of Powell's speech, although it is not clear who urged the items to be struck.

In one case, Powell was to say that the aluminum tubes were so unsuitable for use in conventional rockets that if he were to roll one on a table, "the mere pressure of my hand would deform it." Department of Energy (news - web sites) engineers said that statement was incorrect.

For all their skepticism, State Department analysts did not challenge some of the fundamental allegations in the Powell speech that have since been proved unfounded. Chief among them is the claim that Iraq had mobile biological weapons laboratories, an accusation based largely on information from an Iraqi defector code-named "Curveball."

What the State Department didn't know at the time was that a CIA representative who had met with Curveball found him to have a drinking problem and to be highly unreliable. The CIA representative's red flags were not relayed to Powell until recently, a State Department official said, when then-CIA Director George J. Tenet contacted Powell to tell him that problems with Curveball would be detailed in the Senate report.

So there was no administrational pressure on the things Powell presented to the UN ?

Departures challenge U.S.-led Iraq coalition

Quote[/b] ]The Bush administration faces growing challenges in holding together the 32-nation coalition deployed in Iraq, with four countries already gone, another four due to leave by September and others now quietly making known their intention to wind down or depart before the political transition is complete next year, according to officials from 28 participating countries.

...

The drama over the Filipino hostage in Iraq, which led the Philippine government to say this week it will leave before its August mandate expires

...

Norway also quietly pulled out its 155 military engineers this month.

...

New Zealand intends to pull out its 60 engineers by September, while Thailand plans to withdraw its more than 450 troops in September

...

The Netherlands is likely to pull out next spring after the first of three Iraqi elections, while Polish military officials told the Pentagon that Poland's large contingent will probably leave in mid-2005

...

This is what you get when you have a highly instable situation in Iraq and the reasons for the war turn out to be not present.

The citizens of those countries just have a hard time to understand why their soldiers were sent there as long as the WMD´s don´t pop up.

[billybob2002 0]

In other news,

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm...._dc_347

Quote[/b] ]

Iraq Forms New Spy Agency, Car Bomb Kills 10

2 hours, 27 minutes ago  Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!

By Dean Yates

BAGHDAD, Iraq (Reuters) - Iraq (news - web sites)'s interim prime minister announced the formation of a new spy agency to tackle insurgents Thursday, hours after a car bomb killed 10 people northwest of Baghdad.

Iyad Allawi said he was creating the General Security Directorate, a domestic intelligence agency, which he hoped would infiltrate and expose those behind an insurgency that has raged since U.S.-led forces toppled Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) last year.

"We are determined to bring down all the hurdles that stand in the way of our democracy," Allawi told a news conference, a day after a suicide car bomb in Baghdad killed 11 people and the governor of the northern city of Mosul was assassinated.

"Terrorism will be terminated, God willing."

In the town of Haditha, officials said 10 people were killed and 40 wounded when a car bomb exploded near the main police station. The blast damaged a municipal building and a bank in the town, 125 miles northwest of Baghdad.

"Some of the dead are police, some work in the Haditha bank, while two are children," Najim al-Din, a doctor at a Haditha hospital, told Reuters.

A Filipino hostage in Iraq told his family in a videotaped message he would be returning home after the Philippines agreed to withdraw its small military contingent from Iraq.

Addressing his family, truck driver Angelo de la Cruz said: "Wait for me, I'm coming back to you," Arabic television channel Al Jazeera said in its translation of his remarks.

The group holding him said Thursday it would only free him after Manila withdraws the last of its soldiers from Iraq by the end of this month, a statement read by Al Jazeera said.

Two other foreign hostages are still under threat of death.

Allawi said security was improving despite fresh attacks.

The prime minister did not give specific details on what functions the new security body would carry out or how it would operate with Iraq's fledgling police force, but he said it would function under the judicial system.

Wednesday's car bombing in Baghdad was the first big guerrilla attack in the capital since the interim Iraqi government took over from U.S.-led occupiers on June 28.

AMNESTY EXPECTED FOR INSURGENTS

For many Iraqis a new spy agency may have overtones of the Mukhabarat, Saddam's feared domestic intelligence agency, which for decades kept tight tabs on the nation, but Allawi said it was for the good of the country.

Many had expected Allawi to announce an amnesty to insurgents who lay down their arms. He said the issue was being discussed, but that any offer would only last a short time.

Allawi said the death penalty -- used frequently under Saddam -- was also under consideration.

In central Baghdad, thousands of Iraqis marched through the streets demanding the execution of Saddam and denouncing Islamist militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. "Let every fool listen, Saddam has to be executed," shouted the crowd.

Jordanian-born Zarqawi, suspected of being behind a string of attacks, is the U.S. military's No. 1 target in Iraq.

In Kirkuk, a mother and her three children were killed when a rocket landed on their house late Wednesday as they slept on the roof to escape the summer heat, police said.

Reuters Television pictures showed spattered pools of blood and blood-drenched furnishings on the roof of the house.

In the southern city of Kerbala, a car bomb exploded near a base where Bulgarian troops are based. No bystanders were hurt.

In Manila, the Philippines military awaited orders to pull its contingent of 51 personnel out of Iraq despite pressure from the United States not to cave in to militants' demands. Allawi too urged Manila not to give in to the hostage-takers' demands.

Bulgaria watched a deadline for the execution of a Bulgarian hostage pass without news Wednesday but stood firm on its pro-U.S. policies and refused to pull out its troops.

Militants led by Zarqawi have killed one of two Bulgarian truck drivers held hostage and are threatening to execute the second. A Saudi firm said it was ready to leave Iraq to meet the demands of militants holding an Egyptian truck driver.

interesting....

[EiZei 0]

Today precisely 25 years have passed since Saddam Hussein took over Iraq's presidency officially.

[Balschoiw 0]

Congress' Iraq abuse hearings on hold 'til fall

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON - The congressional investigation into the abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison has virtually ground to halt, as a senior Senate Republican said Thursday that no new hearings would be held on the matter until this fall at the earliest.

The Republican-controlled House Armed Services Committee made it clear weeks ago that it believed that the several current military investigations of the scandal were sufficient, and that summoning commanders to Washington would only hinder American operations in Iraq.

That left the issue to the Senate Armed Services Committee, whose chairman, Sen. John W. Warner, R-Va., has held a series of hearings, but none since May 19. On Thursday, Warner said he would hold off calling any more witnesses until several criminal prosecutions and seven pending Pentagon inquiries were completed.

But some of those inquiries are running weeks behind schedule. The pivotal investigation into the role that American military intelligence officials played in the abuses, which officials once expected to wrap up in June, now is not likely to be completed and reviewed by senior Pentagon officials until mid-August. Congress will soon recess until September.

"We're not in a position to try to have an independent investigation at this point," Warner told reporters after senators received a classified briefing on Thursday on Red Cross reports about detention operations at American-run prisons in Iraq. "There are so many ongoing investigations going on, we cannot in any way jeopardize the right of individuals being investigated

What a shame !

So this is how US handles torture cases. Put them on the long row. Maybe people will have forgotten till then...

While Rumsfeld the man responsible for such is hiding in the cellar or is hidden by his TBA fellows.

Rumsfeld less visible in wake of scandal

Quote[/b] ]Washington - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, for years the most public face of the Bush administration's war on terrorism, has suddenly become scarce.

Burdened by the Iraq prisoner abuse scandal and constrained by the presidential election campaign, the man who spearheaded the Afghanistan and Iraq wars has been relegated to a less-visible role.

Once seemingly in danger of being fired over the prisoner abuse, Rumsfeld appears to have survived. Yet some wonder whether the White House might still conclude that he is a political liability.

"Donald Rumsfeld has gone from being the most popular spokesperson for the Bush administration policies to something of a pariah," said Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute, a think tank.

"Whereas before the White House was happy to see him speaking in public whenever he chose, now it kind of cringes for fear of what the results might be," Thompson added.

Advertisement

Since an April 27 news conference - one day before CBS News broadcast photographs of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqis at the Abu Ghraib prison - Rumsfeld has appeared in the Pentagon briefing room just twice, on May 4 and June 17. In April, he had four Pentagon news conferences; in March he had three.

Larry Di Rita, Rumsfeld's chief spokesman, disputed the notion that the secretary has moved off the public stage.

He said that since early May, Rumsfeld has appeared at 12 news conferences or media events at home and abroad, eight public speeches, seven broadcast interviews and two public congressional hearings.

Various U.S. public opinion polls show the defense secretary's popularity on the decline.

He was viewed favorably by two-thirds two years ago and almost as many at the start of the war in March 2003. By last September, his favorable rating was at 50 percent, and in February it had slipped another 10 points.

The last time Rumsfeld held a Pentagon news conference, nearly a month ago, he was asked about his lower public profile.

"I've been very much involved," Rumsfeld retorted. Evidently armed in advance, he rattled off statistics on the number of his speeches, interviews and congressional appearances.

It´s fantastic to see that elections seem to override any pending cases and legislature duties.

While Gerhard Schroeder speaks fact with Blair:

UK and U.S. 'Must Learn from Iraq Crisis'

Quote[/b] ]Europe and America must never again allow themselves to be divided as they were in the crisis over Iraq, German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder said in an interview broadcast today.

Mr Schroeder was an outspoken opponent of last year’s military action, and said he saw no reason to drop his opposition to the doctrine of “pre-emptive war†used by the US and UK to justify the invasion of Iraq.

Speaking shortly after holding private talks with Prime Minister Tony Blair at 10 Downing Street last night, Mr Schroeder said both sides must “learn lessons†from Iraq and be ready to get involved in more dialogue and co-operation in future crises.

In a sign that Britain faces a tough fight to retain its Å2 billion-a-year EU rebate, Mr Schroeder made clear he expects the UK to come to a compromise on its contributions to Brussels coffers.

And he said the UK should join the euro in order to “fully belong to Europeâ€. Failure to join could have detrimental consequences for the City of London and the whole British economy, he suggested.

Mr Schroeder told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme that he felt no “sense of triumph†over the difficulties the US and UK had found themselves in in Iraq.

But he said the emerging doubts about the validity of the intelligence used to justify war raised deep concern over the doctrine of pre-emptive war.

“I have never been convinced of the usefulness of this doctrine,†said Mr Schroeder. “I have always spoken my mind quite clearly and I have no reason to change my position on this now.

“But I am also of the opinion that both sides have learnt their lessons and have learnt, for example, that in international crises, one needs to talk, especially in the run-up, more than we may have done in this particular case, so as to avoid a situation that we had in the United Nations, where one ends up in such a crisis.

“I am not a prophet, but I hope that we will not see a repetition. I think that the cohesion of the Western world doesn’t allow a repetition.

“This goes for all of us. We must not allow such a situation to develop where Europe is no longer united on such issues and where Europe is no longer in unity with the United States on such issues.

“It would be better for all of us to avoid such a situation. It is the task of politicians in Europe and the USA to see to it that in future such situations do not arise.â€

Mr Schroeder said he had not discussed Britain’s EU rebate with Mr Blair last night, but made clear he wanted to see the UK go into negotiations prepared to compromise.

“It would be wrong to say at this point in time that we can do without a rebate, but it would be equally wrong to say that a rebate is something we need to continue to have,†he said.

“In the run-up to the necessary discussions, we don’t want to have one government manoeuvring itself into a position which it can’t get out of.

“Everyone has difficulties at home once he or she has to enter into a compromise. The ability of Germany to accept a compromise has never been criticised by any other European country.

“Because that is a fact, we also expect others to be willing to enter a compromise.â€

Mr Schroeder played down suggestions that Mr Blair would find himself in the position of Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s, with her renowned “handbagging†of the rest of Europe over the UK’s contributions.

“As far as I know, Tony doesn’t have a handbag, nor does he intend to buy one,†he said.

He added: “We can’t accept a situation where people tell us what to do domestically, while others do not stick to the same rules.â€

Mr Schroeder made clear he wanted to see Britain join the euro.

“I would like to see – but this is my personal wish, the sovereign decision has to be taken here – I would wish to see Great Britain fully belong to Europe and to play its important role in Europe and for Europe,†he said.

“It does play an important part in Europe, but both of us know that Great Britain is not a member of the eurozone. For the eurozone as a whole it would be important if Great Britain were to decide to join.

“My wish would indeed be for Great Britain to belong, because it is important. It is going to be important to the integration of Europe and that is something in which I believe.â€

Failure to join would have knock-on effects on the City of London, which was the driver of British economic success, he said.

“One has to think about the importance of this financial centre against the backdrop of the growing integration of Europe,†he said.

“If one does so, one will risk the conclusion that the chances for the British economy will be greater if they are a full member, so to speak. I am convinced of that.â€

Despite the economical problems we have in germany right now I have to say that I fully support the way our governmet handles international issues. In fact the Brits have to decide one day whom they belong to, the EU , the US or only to themselves. Especially the Iraq war showed that they are not in the boat when it comes to decisions with very serious consequences. They will have to decide oneday or they´ll stand alone. I guess that´s not a situation anyone would appreciate. But right now they have to make decisions that will influence the countries future. I understand that there is a big EU opposition in the UK but you can´t isolate yourself from the world anymore. You certainly can but this won´t solve your problems in longterm but will only worsen them.

That´s of course just my opinion.

[Frisbee 0]

Quote[/b] ]They will have to decide oneday or they´ll stand alone.

They opposed the candidacy of Guy Verhofstadt, our prime minister, because "He is too anti Iraq". Well what the hell does the Iraq Issue have to do with the EU governement?

Quote[/b] ]"Terrorism will be terminated, God willing."

Aha..haha... Delicious irony.

Either he's a christian (what's he doing in the Iraq governement then? Interim, schminterim btw, even the interim governement should represent Iraq to a degree. ) or he said Allah, and it's been translated as God for some odd reason.

(yeah, I acknowledge that I should know if this Allawi person is a n Iraqi or an American before blurting stuff like this out, but i couldn't resist. )

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]They will have to decide oneday or they´ll stand alone.

They opposed the candidacy of Guy Verhofstadt, our prime minister, because "He is too anti Iraq". Well what the hell does the Iraq Issue have to do with the EU governement?

Quote[/b] ]"Terrorism will be terminated, God willing."

Aha..haha... Delicious irony.

Either he's a christian (what's he doing in the Iraq governement then? Interim, schminterim btw, even the interim governement should represent Iraq to a degree. ) or he said Allah, and it's been translated as God for some odd reason.

(yeah, I acknowledge that I should know if this Allawi person is a n Iraqi or an American before blurting stuff like this out, but i couldn't resist. )

Allah means God. The word 'God' is not the sole preserve of christians. Any deluded people can use it.

The worst thing about that statement is that it means he's religious in some way, which is bad for government.

[joltan 0]

It's also the same god - both religions stem from judaism - and share the old testament and most prophets.

[Scorpio 0]

joltan - some Christians deny that it is the same God, probably because of the different name, which is IMO pretty stupid to base a judgement on translation...or maybe it's just ignorance.

Allah is literally translated to a compound word made from the Arabic words al (the) and lah (god): Allah (The God). For example, in Spanish we have el and in French la, le or les.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Oh snap: Did Iraqi PM Summarily Execute 6 Insurgents In Custody At A Police Station?

Quote[/b] ]Iraqi PM executed six insurgents: witnesses

Reporter: Maxine McKew

MAXINE MCKEW: Let's go straight to the allegations that Iyad Allawi executed as many as six suspected insurgents at a Baghdad police station at the end of June.

The explosive claims in tomorrow's Sydney Morning Herald and Age newspapers allege that the prisoners were handcuffed and blindfolded, lined up against a courtyard wall and shot by the Iraqi Prime Minister.

Dr Allawi is alleged to have told those around him that he wanted to send a clear message to the police on how to deal with insurgents.

Two people allege they witnessed the killings and there are also claims the Iraqi Interior Minister was present as well as four American security men in civilian dress.

Well, the journalist reporting the story is Paul McGeough, awarded a Walkley Award for his coverage of the Iraq war last year.

He's also a former editor of the Herald and is now the paper's chief correspondent.

He's joined me on the line from a location in the Middle East.

MAXINE McKEW: Paul McGeough, thanks for joining us.

Paul, as you've also made clear in your article, Prime Minister Allawi has flatly denied this story.

Why then is the Herald so confident about publishing it?

PAUL McGEOUGH, 'SYDNEY MORNING HERALD' AND 'AGE' FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Well it's a very contentious issue.

What you have is two very solid eyewitness accounts of what happened at a police security complex in a south-west Baghdad suburb.

They are very detailed.

They were done separately.

Each witness is not aware that the other spoke.

They were contacted through personal channels rather than through the many political, religious or military organisations working in Baghdad that might be trying to spin a tale.

And they've laid it out very carefully and very clearly as to what they saw.

MAXINE McKEW: You haven't identified these witnesses but why have they felt free to talk about such an extraordinary story?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Well, they were approached through personal connections and as a result of that, they accepted assurances.

They were guaranteed anonymity, they were told that no identifying material would be published on them and they told what they saw.

MAXINE McKEW: And just take us through the events as they were accounted to you?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Well, I'll take you through what the two bits of pieces of what the two witnesses said to give you the full chronology as I understand it.

There was a surprise visit at about 10:30 in the morning to the police centre.

The PM is said to have talked to a large group of policemen, then to have toured the complex.

They came to a courtyard where six, sorry seven prisoners were lined up against a wall.

They were handcuffed, they were blindfolded, they were described to me as an Iraqi colloquialism for the fundamentalist foreign fighters who have come to Baghdad.

They have that classic look that you see with many of the Osama bin Laden associates of the scraggly beard and the very short hair and they were a sort of ... took place in front of them as they were up against this wall was an exchange between the Interior Minister and Dr Allawi, the Interior Minister saying that he felt like killing them on the spot.

It's worth noting at this point in the story that on June 19, there was an attack on the Interior Minister's home in the Sunni triangle in which four of his bodyguards (inaudible) --

Dr Allawi is alleged to have said (inaudible) -- .

MAXINE McKEW: Paul, you just dropped out there.

You were just beginning to describe in fact how this incident, this alleged incident, took place.

What was the action taken?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Um, after a tour of the complex, the sort of official party, if you like, arrived in a courtyard where the prisoners were lined up against a wall.

An exchange is said to have taken place between Dr Allawi and the Interior Minister.

The Interior Minister lives to the north of Baghdad, and on June 19, four of his bodyguards were killed in an attack on his home.

He expressed the wish that he would like to kill all these men on the spot.

The PM is said to have responded that they deserved worse than death, that each was responsible for killing more than 50 Iraqis each, and at that point, he is said to have pulled a gun and proceeded to aim at and shoot all seven.

Six of them died, the seventh, according to one witness, was wounded in the chest, according to the other witness, was wounded in the neck and presumed to be dead.

MAXINE McKEW: And the victims, they were, what, foreign or local insurgents?

PAUL McGEOUGH: They were - one of the witnesses described them as Wahabis, the Iraqi colloquialism for foreign fighters who have come into the country or local Iraqis who have taken on their Islamic jihad, if you like.

The reference is very much to their appearance - very short hair, very scraggly beard and four of them were described as Wahabis, the other three were described to me as normal Iraqis.

MAXINE McKEW: Now you're time line, Paul, on this is this happened just before the formal handover, is that right, to Dr Allawi's interim Government?

PAUL McGEOUGH: As explained by the witnesses, neither of them could put a precise date on the incident.

But they each gave me a description in terms of the days that had lapsed from it and by tracking back on the two different descriptions that they gave me from the date of the interview I had with them, which was some days apart, I was able to establish that it happened on or around the weekend of June 19/20.

That would make it three weeks after Dr Allawi had been named as Prime Minister - one week before the handover.

MAXINE MCKEW: And your informants, in what kind of tone did they recount this extraordinary tale?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Very matter-of-factly, which is often the way you get incredible or remarkable events explained to you in this part of the world.

There's been so much violence, so much pain and a particular attitude to death, if you like, that both of them recounted it quite matter-of-factly.

MAXINE McKEW: And of course, I have to ask you again - I'm sure that the Baghdad rumour mill would be thick with stories about Dr Allawi.

Why are you so confident that you can't put this story into that same category?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Because it came from two eye witnesses.

You're right about the Baghdad rumour mill, it's ferocious.

And versions of this story are on it and it was as a result of hearing this story as a rumour that I proceeded to check it to investigate it, to see if it had a factual base.

I used, as I said earlier, personal channels to make contact with the two witnesses to establish that they were in a position to know in terms of somebody trying to come at me with a story, that wasn't the case.

They did not come to me.

They weren't offered or volunteered to me.

There was an element of chance involved in meeting one of them, which would have made it impossible for him to have been a set-up for me, and listening to their stories, their stories sounded credible.

I had a colleague sitting in by accident on one of the interviews.

He was impressed by the credibility and something that's very important with a story like this in this part of the world, particularly where you're interviewing through interpreters I had a very sound, to me on the ground, a very valuable set of Iraqi eyes and ears listening and also believing the account.

MAXINE McKEW: Your sources of course will be sought out by other news agencies after tonight.

Will they stand up to scrutiny?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Well I don't know whether others will find them or not.

I won't be making them available to anyone.

I've given undertakes that I would protect their identities absolutely and I have to stand by that.

MAXINE McKEW: All right, for that.

Paul McGeough, thanks very much indeed, fascinating story.

PAUL McGEOUGH: OK.

[red oct 2]

and a new Police State is born! pretty soon they'll be just like Saudi Arabia w/ their own Chop Chop Squar and all.

[bn880 5]

A lot of nasty stuff happened in Iraq today:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR....524.htm

Quote[/b] ]Although the justice minister, Malik Duhan al-Hasan escaped unharmed, five of his bodyguards were killed on Saturday.

Quote[/b] ]Also on Saturday, a cleric belonging to the Iraqi Islamic Party was assassinated in front of his home in Baghdad, said party officials.

Shaikh Abd al-Samad Ismail al-Adhami was gunned down by unidentified assailants. The motive of the attack is unclear.

In the central city of Samarra, the head of the Iraqi National Congress and his son were also killed when unidentified assailants fired rocket-propelled grenades at his home.

Quote[/b] ]In another car bomb attack, two members of Iraq's National Guard were killed and another 25 wounded in a blast in the town of Mahmudiya, some 40 km south of Baghdad, on Saturday morning.

Quote[/b] ]North of Baghdad, a roadside bomb in the town of Baiji killed a US soldier and wounded another. The death brought to 894 the number of US troops killed in Iraq since the war was launched last year.

An Aljazeera correspondent in Baghdad also reported that two US trucks and a military wagon were damaged due to explosions on the main road in Abu Ghreib area on Saturday morning.

[Rishon 0]

Iraq is really screwed up right now. I have been told that by my bro who just got back on leave. Crap happens everyday. Now, he gets spooked by crowds, because for the past 5 months they've shot at him. The guys they train, most of the time defect to the Insurgency. So, he's been training his enemy. I'm just glad I got out before all this crap happened.

I was wrong about how I said most of them liked us. They all pretty much Hate us, but want us there because other wise they're......not going to do very well.

The idiotic radicals are the ones who WANT US OUT badly. Mainly uneducated young people who pick up an AK after an Anti-American and scream Jihad. They have no idea what they are fighting for, they just know that Americans are evil and that they are not Islamic (Mainly, Westerners are Christian or Jewish.)

[walker 0]

Hi Rishon

Sad to hear about your brother. I hope that there is a proper system of bringing returning troops down from the stress of constant threats. It was one of the things that so marred the US after vietnam that unlike WWII they did not have a month or two stuck in a troop ship comming home. The time with their comrades gave them a chance to talk out the stress of war.

In the UK after WWII because there was not a big atlantic journey to do they made all the troops stay in barracks for a month of two to lower the battle stress levels and talk stuff out. The troops moaned a lot because they wanted to get back to their families but the medics insisted on it. It meant that unlike vietnam war few soldiers went off the deep end.

Make sure he and his buds get together to talk stuff out.

Kind Regards Ian

[Rishon 0]

Well, Actually It was only him, as only 4 guys from his Battalion are allowed to go on leave, and he was lucky enough to come back. I didn't get that deal whaen I was there. Also, something I found interesting.

You seen the picture of the bradley that was attacked by the Suicide Bomber and all that happened was a bunch of blood getting splattered all over? He saw that. He said that those bradleys can take a beating like hell.

[Balschoiw 0]

I think it´s kind of funny to hear this:

Quote[/b] ]Mainly uneducated young people who pick up an AK after an Anti-American and scream Jihad. They have no idea what they are fighting for, they just know that Americans are evil and that they are not Islamic

from a person who wrote this:

Quote[/b] ]We needed this war to give our troops an Idea of how war works now adays and get them to gain some experience. Right about now, we are one of the most war ridden armies in the world. Armies need exercise too. I got experience, my buddies got experience. We are all proud that we coudl serve our country and hope we can do it again

...

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