The Iraq thread 3

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]UK Servicemen to Be Released Today, Iran Says

Wed Jun 23, 2004 05:04 AM ET

By Christian Oliver and Parisa Hafezi

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Eight British servicemen held in Iran after their boats strayed into the Islamic Republic's waters will be freed Wednesday, Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi was quoted as saying.

The servicemen were spending a third day in detention in Iran and their release would ease diplomatic tensions.

"The crew of the British vessels will be freed today," Kharrazi was quoted saying by the official IRNA news agency.

Ali Reza Afshar, deputy head of the armed forces chief of staff, told the ISNA student news agency Wednesday that the six marines and two sailors were in the wrong.

"Following comments by British forces that they made a mistake by entering Iranian waters...the order for the release of the vessels and their military crew was issued," he said.

Britain, whose diplomatic ties with Iran have soured over criticism of Tehran's slow pace of cooperation with nuclear inspections, said it could not confirm that Iran had pledged to release the men.

But a British foreign office spokesman said London remained in constant close contact with authorities in Tehran.

"We have been talking non-stop to the Iranians on this issue and we are still hopeful we can reach some kind of resolution as soon as possible," he told Reuters.

Some Iranian media reported Iranian officials had threatened to prosecute the Britons, which political analysts said revealed deep political divisions within the country.

The men appeared on state television Tuesday wearing blindfolds. Iranian forces captured them Monday, saying they had ventured into Iranian waters on the wreck-infested Shatt al-Arab waterway along the Iraqi border.

The semi-official Fars news agency said the men were still held in the sweltering border province of Khuzestan in Iran's oil-rich southwest.

The official IRNA news agency quoted a source as saying an inquiry had found the men had entered Iranian waters in three boats by mistake and without hostile intent.

One of the sailors was quoted on Iran's Arabic-language al Alam television channel apologizing for bad navigation.

A British military source acknowledged the men may have strayed into Iranian waters in bad weather in confined straits.

The men had been delivering a small patrol boat to Iraqi river police. Britain's Ministry of Defense said the men were carrying only their personal weapons.

While deeply opposed to the U.S.-led war in Iraq, Iran has in the past turned a blind eye to foreign aircraft and boats on its Western border.

[Gollum1 0]

Hi all,

Regarding the 8 British 'Soldiers' being held captive, the Iranians showed footage of the weapons seized. They had the craft, plus sidearms.

A M4, and M16/203.......

Regular troops carry SA-80's, but British Special Forces carry M4's and 203's. Looks like 8 SBS guys got picked up!

(Special Boat Service. The naval version of the SAS)

LOL...u honestly believe that...if by chance they were SBS or SAS, the news would be talking about a BUNCH of dead iranians in a border clash with unknown forces

LOL yes I honestly believe that, unless they were on a mission to start a war with Iran. We're not at the movies.

[denoir 0]

Good news from Iraq guys!

http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4025

Quote[/b] ]"Throughout the nation, four out of five mosques have not been obliterated," Kimmitt said. "That's way, way, way more than half. Also, 80 percent of the nation's treasures and artifacts have not been destroyed by artillery or stolen in the widespread looting. If we were in school, that'd be a B-minus."

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Its good to hear the marines are being released. Not a hundred percent clear but it seems to have been just a slip up in navigation.

The Marines very probably arent from the SBS in my opinion. Certainly this Guardian article doesnt seem to think so (the media including the Guardian have not been averse to identifying special forces in the past)

Quote[/b] ]One of the men, who identified himself as Sergeant Thomas Hawkins of the Royal Marines, apologised on Iranian television for the mistake.

Another was identified as Chief Petty Officer Robert Webster, a navy reservist who works as a firefighter at Newcastle airport. He was also seen on television reading from a prepared statement saying the boats had entered Iranian waters by accident.

There are some other explanations for the American weapons apart from SAS/SBS.

brgnorway-

Quote[/b] ]Do you honestly believe SAS/SBS would engage iranian soldiers in Iranian territory? In what possible way would that benefit the relationship between Iran and England

None, but its the -UK- not just England (unlike in football). Everyone makes that mistake.

[Veovis 0]

Quality, quality news reporting.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quality, quality news reporting.

Outstanding! That's like an A!

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Can the dead ones still vote? i think theyde be rather against the coalition.

[reconmercs 0]

Hi all,

Regarding the 8 British 'Soldiers' being held captive, the Iranians showed footage of the weapons seized. They had the craft, plus sidearms.

A M4, and M16/203.......

Regular troops carry SA-80's, but British Special Forces carry M4's and 203's. Looks like 8 SBS guys got picked up!

(Special Boat Service. The naval version of the SAS)

LOL...u honestly believe that...if by chance they were SBS or SAS, the news would be talking about a BUNCH of dead iranians in a border clash with unknown forces

LOL yes I honestly believe that, unless they were on a mission to start a war with Iran. We're not at the movies.

Well, it's a KNOWN fact the probability of western special forces units surrending to an enemy is as close to nil you can get..thas not hollywood thas fact...period and some of the guys have already been identified as reserve members of the royal navy I believe. And if by minute chance they were SBS..why would they have to be on a mission to start a war? there is this thing called reconnaissance, there have been rumors of the iranians moving forces near the border of iran and iraq. But I'm sure we'll find out for sure these guys were just run of the mill sailors trying to deliever equipment to the new Iraqi navy or coast guard...and all the conspiracy freaks will fade away

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Sorry,I couldn`t catch his name nor have I heared his voice could he have been this doctor?

He is a doctor that is working inside of the hospital (she called the hospital). The 20 bodies he saw were badly burned and he treated 8 badly burned men that survived. Furthermore, the bodies (he said) looked like badly burned fighters (he did not say anything about 3 kids or 8 women).

Quote[/b] ]

Extremly!It couldn`t be just what the reporter said that they were protecting it out of fear of a new siege.I mean who would actually think US millitary is capable of such a thing,it`s not like they`ve lost close to a 1.000 lifes in the last one.

Why would the americans attack a hospital to kill a "innocent" family. Furthermore, the reported said they were afraid the americans were coming to attack them while they were getting treated not because of a siege....

You must not know about NPR reporting. They are ones with the most "educated" viewing audience about iraq. NPR is a considered a "liberal" station.

[reconmercs 0]

well, billybob...since your a bush nazi..I doubt we'll agree on much but I do agree with you that the bastards causing trouble in iraq are probally not iraqis....it doesn't make much since for them to be threatning their own freedom at this point the more Allies that get killed the longer we're likely to have to stay which isn't what the average iraqi wants..my bet is most of these guys being foriengers too...there you got me to agree with ya...

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]well, billybob...since your a bush nazi..I doubt we'll agree on much   but I do agree with you that the bastards causing trouble in iraq are probally not iraqis....it doesn't make much since for them to be threatning their own freedom at this point the more Allies that get killed the longer we're likely to have to stay which isn't what the average iraqi wants..my bet is most of these guys being foriengers too...there you got me to agree with ya...  

OMG, this is historic, somebody called me a bush nazi...SIEG HEIL....LOL...   (I agree with the rest of your post)

[Veovis 0]

Quote[/b] ]but I do agree with you that the bastards causing trouble in iraq are probally not iraqis....it doesn't make much since for them to be threatning their own freedom at this point the more Allies that get killed the longer we're likely to have to stay which isn't what the average iraqi wants..my bet is most of these guys being foriengers too

That's a logical conclusion for somebody who isn't living in Iraq. It blows my mind that there are daily attacks, because it works against them. Consider though, that the average Iraqi might not even be informed enough to know that we are handing over power. Reliable news is hard enough to find in America, let alone in a country with an infrastructure about as solid as the delicious code red I'm holding. They've been ruled harshly for over 20 years. With such limited experience thinking for themselves, and with such limited information, you gotta wonder if some of the terrorists are Iraqis that think they are helping their situation.

[Badgerboy 0]

Well, it's a KNOWN fact the probability of western special forces units surrending to an enemy is as close to nil you can get..thas not hollywood thas fact

Eh? And your sources are?

At least 4 SAS members surrendered to the Iraqis during the Gulf War (Bravo Two Zero anyone?) Special Forces have also been captured or forced to capitulate in other conflicts as well.

Special Forces are simply better trained soldiers. They are not suicidal, and will surrender in a losing situation. I think you've been watching too many films.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Special Forces are simply better trained soldiers. They are not suicidal, and will surrender in a losing situation. I think you've been watching too many films.

For a second there I could have sworn there were two badgers in your avatar...

[Gollum1 0]

Well, it's a KNOWN fact the probability of western special forces units surrending to an enemy is as close to nil you can get..thas not hollywood thas fact

Eh? And your sources are?

At least 4 SAS members surrendered to the Iraqis during the Gulf War (Bravo Two Zero anyone?) Special Forces have also been captured or forced to capitulate in other conflicts as well.

B20 alone proves that it is not as "close to nil" and a "KNOWN FACT" for them not to surrender.

Unreasonable Spec Ops idolatry?

edit: Ending OT on my part.

[reconmercs 0]

Well, it's a KNOWN fact the probability of western special forces units surrending to an enemy is as close to nil you can get..thas not hollywood thas fact

Eh? And your sources are?

At least 4 SAS members surrendered to the Iraqis during the Gulf War (Bravo Two Zero anyone?) Special Forces have also been captured or forced to capitulate in other conflicts as well.

Special Forces are simply better trained soldiers. They are not suicidal, and will surrender in a losing situation. I think you've been watching too many films.

Gollum1 and Badger, you have no clue...have you ever in your life known or for that fact met an operator..my guess is probaly not...no one is calling them super human but they are a cut WELL above the rest and if you did slightly what there about you would understand where I'm coming from..."surrender is not an option" is not just a cheap slogan its a way of life of the few men that I have had the honor to meet and know over the years...we all know the Bravo Two Zero story and we also know there were circumstances that got those few men captured...how many American Special operations soldiers have been captured over the years in war...since Vietnam? Try NONE I can't speak for other countries but those are the facts for here and before someone mentions the SEAL in afghanistan he did not surrender he was damn near tackled when he had run out of ammunition and executed by those bastards..I can assure u the words I surrender I quit or  I surrender never came out of his mouth.. And besides this all British marines and sailors captured have been identified..their not SAS..SBS..MI6 or some super secret unit..their just a bunch of brave allies who had a very bad day..and hopefully they'll be home soon...

[bn880 5]

Ah so let me guess if I have this straight, despite their orders they should have fought the Iranians and created a condition for war? Why do you think surrender is not an option for any soldier... I think you have created this known fact in your mind.

[reconmercs 0]

Ah so let me guess if I have this straight, despite their orders they should have fought the Iranians and created a condition for war?  Why do you think surrender is not an option for any soldier... I think you have created this known fact in your mind.

omg if you don't understand what I wrote...seek help! what I wrote was clear...the men I know who are in or who have been in special operations units have made it clear that surrender is pretty much the same thing is quitting period...neither of which is exceptable in the units they belonged or belong in..how do I make that clearer you can argue what your opinion till the cows come home.  And how the hell do you know what their orders where? Did you write the ROE? READ before you write it'll get you far in life..until then keep your uninformed opinion to yourself

[Longinius 1]

Of course spec ops surrender. If thats their last resort. In this case, chosing between either starting a war with Iran or surrendering is a no brainer even for a grunt, so I assume also spec ops would know that the only option, if they couldnt escape and evade, would be surrender.

[quicksand 0]

Fierce fighting in Iraq

Quote[/b] ]

Multiple attacks rock Iraqi cities

A multiple rocket-propelled grenade attack hit the central police station in Ramadi, killing seven police officers and a member of the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps, Iraq's new army.

Twelve police were wounded along with three ICDC members, according to a local journalist.

According to a source, tribal sheiks are negotiating with insurgents to stop the clashes in Ramadi.

A car bomb ripped through the police station in the northern city of Mosul at 9:30 a.m. (0530 GMT) destroying 20 police cars and causing a crater over 15 feet (4.5 meters) wide, a journalist told CNN.

Eyewitnesses saw a pickup truck driving toward police station before hearing an explosion.

A pitched battle between U.S. forces and insurgents was reported in Baqubah, north of Baghdad, following an attack on an Iraqi police station around 5:30 a.m. (0130 GMT).

At least four policemen were killed and five wounded during the fighting, an Iraqi Ministry of Health official said.

Wire reports said at least 18 people had been killed in the strike on the police station in Baqubah. CNN has not been able to independently confirm that figure.

There were also reports on an attack on the electricity board's headquarters in the city.

Elsewhere, U.S. troops faced fierce resistance as they tried to enter an eastern industrial section of Fallujah around 8 a.m.

Baqubah, Fallujah and Ramadi are all located in the restive Sunni triangle region -- loyal to the old Baathist regime of former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

The avalanche of attacks comes as coalition officials said they expected an upsurge of violence in the lead up to the June 30 transfer of power to an interim Iraqi government.

And it goes on and on and on  

Oh and pictures of the terrorist "hideout" that was hit last night

Quote[/b] ]Iraqis look at the damage to vehicles in a parking lot that was hit in overnight airstrikes by the U.S. military in Fallujah, Iraq (news - web sites), Wednesday, June 23, 2004. Unidentified witnesses at the scene said that the bedding lying on the hood of the car was used by men sleeping in the vehicles at the time of the strike. U.S. forces launched an airstrike targeting militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi after his group beheaded a South Korean hostage. (AP Photo/Khalid Mohammed)

[theavonlady 2]

Oh and pictures of the terrorist "hideout" that was hit last night

Iraqis look at the damage to vehicles in a parking lot that was hit in overnight airstrikes by the U.S. military in Fallujah, Iraq (news - web sites), Wednesday, June 23, 2004. Unidentified witnesses at the scene said that the bedding lying on the hood of the car was used by men sleeping in the vehicles at the time of the strike.

Would it be possible that you're seeing the result of one stray missile and not where the rest of them hit? (Hint: look at the bold highlighted text in the follwoing article).

And here's an inside-look at the goings on in Fallujah:

Quote[/b] ]<a href="http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04176/336754.stm" target="_blank">Fallujah ruled Taliban-style

Liquor, pop music banned by militants who are taking control of Iraqi city</a>

Thursday, June 24, 2004

By Borzou Daragahi, Special to the Post-Gazette

BAGHDAD -- The militants who all but run the city of Fallujah are meting out instant justice for those accused of spying for the Americans: street side executions.

On Tuesday, witnesses say, a vehicle painted like a police car pulled up to a stoplight next to a man suspected of helping U.S. troops target militant safe houses, which have been bombed at least twice over the past few days. These "police," their faces covered, opened fire.

"I must have heard over a hundred rounds," said Naqoz, a Fallujah resident and employee of a Western nonprofit organization who asked that his family name not be revealed.

U.S. and local Iraqi officials struck a deal in May that allowed the all-Iraqi Fallujah Brigade to take control of the city. But according to city residents and U.S. military officials, the Brigade has little influence and the experiment has turned Fallujah into a hotbed of radical groups. Some of the groups are affiliated with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian militant who has claimed responsibility for the beheadings of U.S. contractor Nicholas Berg and South Korean translator Kim Sun-il.

Besides conducting summary executions of suspected American sympathizers, various groups of Fallujah Mujahideen (holy warriors) have imposed harsh interpretations of Islamic law much as the former Taliban regime did in Afghanistan. They have banned liquor and pop music and have threatened to cut off the hands of thieves, dispensing justice through a six-week-old "Mujahideen court."

"I'm not prepared to assess there's somehow an evening town hall meeting among the various foreign-fighter, jihadi terrorist groups where they sort of coordinate their activities," said a senior coalition military official. "But there certainly does not seem to be any effort on anybody's part to change the balance [of power] inside the city."

Adnan Abdi, a Baghdad businessman who frequently visits Fallujah, said the Mujahedeen come from Yemen, Syria and even Pakistan, and have set up checkpoints all over the city.

At the Fallujah bus terminal and in conversations at private homes outside of the city, many Fallujah residents said they approved of the harsh rules imposed by the Mujahedeen groups, defending them as necessary to fill the post-war power vacuum.

"It's true that all music stores must sell only religious music, not other music," said Mostafa Javad, a 25-year-old university student who commutes daily between Baghdad and Fallujah. "But people in Fallujah are going into religion more and more every day."

Some residents of Fallujah tolerate the Mujahedeen and even allow their own sons to join the militants because of their rage against the American forces, they said. In the months before the Fallujah uprising began in April, U.S. forces frequently raided houses and made mass arrests in the city, which was a fiercely independent and conservative stronghold even during the reign of Saddam Hussein.

But Naqoz said he feared for his life and safety, and the future of his city, under the rule of the holy warriors.

"There are Arabs from Syria, Yemen, Libya, Egypt," he said. "They come for jihad. They see Fallujah as a battleground between themselves and the Americans. The families of Fallujah don't want to work with these people. The people of Fallujah are afraid of them."

He said some foreign fighters have taken steps to make themselves difficult to differentiate from native Fallujans, but that the tight-knit townspeople can easily spot outsiders. While many of the foreigners wear bushy beards characteristic of Islamic fighters, others are clean shaven. Some days they drive around in pick-up trucks, other days in sedans. They wear street clothes, clerical garb or traditional Arab headdresses and robes. They move a lot, from house to house.

They also grill passersby about their identities and destinations and search vehicles. "They divide themselves into groups of three to seven and stand on every street corner," Abdi said.

In the days leading up to the recent air strikes in Fallujah, U.S. troops have reportedly surrounded they city and shopkeepers have begun shuttering their stores. Whole neighborhoods have emptied in anticipation of a possible American assault.

Journalists are forbidden from entering Fallujah; clerics who once used to grant permission to journalists to report in the city now warn Western and even Iraqi journalists to stay away.

Fallujah residents have a distinctive culture. At weddings they dance the "chobi." For lunch they eat characteristic kabobs, heavy on onions.

But the Mujahedeen have cracked down on what they consider social vices, banning the use of celebratory gunfire at weddings and flogging people caught drinking alcohol.

"If you steal, you will get your hand cut off; if you kill, you are killed; if you drink alcohol, you get lashed 80 times," said Amar Jassem, a 25-year-old Fallujah driver who shuttles passengers between the capital and his hometown in his minivan.

Fallujah resident Saad Najam Abdullah visits Baghdad so he can drink alcoholic beverages without fearing arrest and said as many as 14 alleged collaborators have been shot dead on the streets for giving information to Americans.

"We saw corpses all over the city," he said. "They put a piece of paper on the man's corpse with his name and citing evidence that he spied for Americans."

Despite his own lapses into vice, however, Abdullah talked approvingly of the militant crackdown.

"The Mujahedeen are applying Islamic laws very precisely against the criminals," he said.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Would it be possible that you're seeing the result of one stray missile and not where the rest of them hit?

Well the article is partially wrong as there are reporters in Fallujah,this pictures were made by Khalid Mohammed a reporter for AP,who was also let to film the site after the first air strike in the city.So you are saying he is part of a conspiracy to hide the actual damage?-I find that highly unlikely.

Quote[/b] ]And here's an inside-look at the goings on in Fallujah:

Good article AL.It nicely points out the desastrous effects of the siege in April.As many feared,those who fighted fanaticly to protect the city from the US marines are now imposing their will and are distancing themselves from everything that`s western and seeking revenge on those who co-operated with US forces.

[Badgerboy 0]

Well, it's a KNOWN fact the probability of western special forces units surrending to an enemy is as close to nil you can get..thas not hollywood thas fact

Eh? And your sources are?

At least 4 SAS members surrendered to the Iraqis during the Gulf War (Bravo Two Zero anyone?) Special Forces have also been captured or forced to capitulate in other conflicts as well.

Special Forces are simply better trained soldiers. They are not suicidal, and will surrender in a losing situation. I think you've been watching too many films.

Gollum1 and Badger, you have no clue...have you ever in your life known or for that fact met an operator..my guess is probaly not...no one is calling them super human but they are a cut WELL above the rest and if you did slightly what there about you would understand where I'm coming from..."surrender is not an option" is not just a cheap slogan its a way of life of the few men that I have had the honor to meet and know over the years...we all know the Bravo Two Zero story and we also know there were circumstances that got those few men captured...how many American Special operations soldiers have been captured over the years in war...since Vietnam? Try NONE I can't speak for other countries but those are the facts for here and before someone mentions the SEAL in afghanistan he did not surrender he was damn near tackled when he had run out of ammunition and executed by those bastards..I can assure u the words I surrender I quit or  I surrender never came out of his mouth.. And besides this all British marines and sailors captured have been identified..their not SAS..SBS..MI6 or some super secret unit..their just a bunch of brave allies who had a very bad day..and hopefully they'll be home soon...

No, I played Rugby against a few SAS members a few years ago. Our Sqn vs a few SAS guys mixed in with some others. They are very fit, can drink shitloads, but above all, very smart.

Smart people know when to quit. I don't know what sort of 'gung-ho' shit they teach in US Special Forces, but I guarantee most don't actually believe it. Two of the retired 22nd guys said that Us Special forces were very good, but the ones they had met were a bit loud, niave and unexperienced.

Besides getting killed for your country is a bit stupid really. Far better to do your job then if you have no option surrender instead of fighting to the death. Why throw away all that experience? Perhaps when you get older this might become apparant. Could Bals, Ran or Denoir comment on this? You all have combat experience.

[Balschoiw 0]

To make it short. What reconmercs says is bull.

Nothing more to add. He seems to have his knowledge from movies and comics

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Would it be possible that you're seeing the result of one stray missile and not where the rest of them hit?

Well the article is partially wrong as there are reporters in Fallujah,this pictures were made by Khalid Mohammed a reporter for AP,who was also let to film the site after the first air strike in the city.So you are saying he is part of a conspiracy to hide the actual damage?-I find that highly unlikely.

I don't.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]And here's an inside-look at the goings on in Fallujah:

Good article AL.It nicely points out the desastrous effects of the siege in April.As many feared,those who fighted fanaticly to protect the city from the US marines are now imposing their will and are distancing themselves from everything that`s western and seeking revenge on those who co-operated with US forces.

There seem to be those who continue to cooperate with US forces inside Najaf. Their motives might be monetary or patriotic or both.

There's definitely room for criticism that the US backed down and capitulated to Fallujah's terrorists the way it did.

Maybe the US is in the midst of changing tactics right now, as it worked better against Sadr in Najaf:

Quote[/b] ]Army unit claims victory over sheik

By Rowan Scarborough

THE WASHINGTON TIMES

The Army's powerful 1st Armored Division is proclaiming victory over Sheik Muqtada al-Sadr's marauding militia that just a month ago seemed on the verge of conquering southern Iraq.

The Germany-based division defeated the militia with a mix of American firepower and money paid to informants. Officers today say "Operation Iron Saber" will go down in military history books as one of the most important battles in post-Saddam Hussein Iraq.

"I've got to think this was a watershed operation in terms of how to do things as part of a counterinsurgency," said Brig. Gen. Mark Hertling, a West Point graduate and one of two 1st Armored assistant division commanders, in an interview last week as he moved around southern Iraq. "We happened to design a campaign that did very well against this militia."

When the division got word April 8 that Sheik al-Sadr's uprising meant most 1st Armored soldiers would stay and fight, rather than going home as scheduled, it touched off a series of remarkable military maneuvers.

Soldiers, tanks and helicopters at a port in Kuwait reversed course, rushing back inside Iraq to battle the Shi'ite cleric's 10,000-strong army. Within days, a four-tank squadron was rumbling toward the eastern city of Kut. And within hours of arriving, Lt. Col. Mark Calvert and his squadron had cleared the town's government buildings of the sheik's so-called Mahdi's Army.

Meanwhile, Maj. Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, 1st Armored commander, huddled with Gen. Hertling and other senior aides to map an overall war strategy. The division would shift from urban combat in Baghdad's streets to precision strikes amid shrines of great religious significance.

Hunting the enemy in tight city streets broadened to patrolling a region the size of Vermont.

Gen. Dempsey first needed the locations of Sheik al-Sadr's rifle-toting henchmen. Average Iraqis, fed up with the militia's kidnappings and thievery, quickly became spies, as did a few moderate clerics who publicly stayed neutral.

Once he had targets, Gen. Dempsey could then map a battle plan for entering four key cities — Karbala, Najaf, Kufa and Diwaniyah. This would be a counterinsurgency fought with 70-ton M-1 Abrams tanks and aerial gunships overhead. It would not be the lightning movements of clandestine commandos, but rather all the brute force the Army could muster, directed at narrowly defined targets.

Last week, Sheik al-Sadr surrendered. He called on what was left of his men to cease operations and said he may one day seek public office in a democratic Iraq.

Gen. Hertling said Mahdi's Army is defeated, according the Army's doctrinal definition of defeat. A few stragglers might be able to fire a rocket-propelled grenade, he said, but noted: "Do they have the capability of launching any kind of offensive operation? Absolutely not."

The division estimates it killed at least several thousand militia members.

Gen. Dempsey designed "Iron Saber" based on four pillars: massive combat power; information operations to discredit Sheik al-Sadr; rebuilding the Iraqi security forces that fled; and beginning civil affairs operations as quickly as possible, including paying Iraqis to repair damaged public buildings.

"As soon as we finished military operations, we immediately began civil-military operations," said Gen. Hertling. "We crossed over from bullets to money."

The strike into Kut was followed by an incursion into Diwaniyah. Then an 18-tank battalion entered Karbala, a holy city where precision operations were needed to spare religious shrines. Then soldiers moved into Najaf and Kufa, where Sheik al-Sadr was hiding out and where about 3,000 of his fighters occupied government buildings, mosques, amusement parks and schools.

"We were going from outside in to get this guy," Gen. Hertling said. "We had to go after them one city at a time."