The Iraq thread 3

[theavonlady 2]

Question: When it comes to a nations territorial waters, do that nation have the right to detain foreign soldiers and ships that enter unannounced / unwanted? If so, what grants them this right (Treates, decrees etc)?

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/w1/waters-t.asp

Quote[/b] ]the rights of nonbelligerent foreign warships in this zone, and the extent of the jurisdiction of the coastal nation's courts over ships passing through and incidents in the zone, have long been matters of debate.

[theavonlady 2]

The majority of callers protest against the lack of electricity in Iraq

I wonder why they didn't talk about that on Iraq's previous call in show?

Quote[/b] ]But it is not the country's first talk radio station: before the war, Uday Hussein, Saddam's son, ran Al-Shabab Radio, which allowed callers to talk about love and poetry.

I can just imagine what would have happened:

"Hello. My name is Yusuf. I'm calling in to compalin about why we have one hour of electricity a day, when our Baathist party hack neighbor has 3 phase to run his central air conditioning system"

"Thanks for dropping in Yusuf. Don't worry. Someone will be over soon to fix you - it."

That is not how it was, do you have any proof for this Hollywood production and of the electricity blackout rates during the Hussein Regime and now?

A quick search of the WEB will find you numerous articles. As an example, from Sabotage continues in Iraq, written almost a year ago:

Quote[/b] ]Electricity generation is now about 3,500 to 4,000 megawatts, short of the prewar level of 4,500 megawatts. Under Saddam electricity in Iraq was sporadic and inequitably distributed. Often Baghdad had power at the expense of other parts of the country. Coalition officials want to distribute power more evenly and provide some consistency.

[theavonlady 2]

The official said one reason why Falluja was relatively calm today, despite the potential for revenge killings or other strife, was because the city's residents had little love for the foreign terrorists.

Several residents agreed today. Their actions, or inactions, spoke even louder.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg....125.jpg

Iraqis demonstrate in Fallujah, Iraq (news - web sites),

Monday June 21, 2004, against the recent airstrikes by U.S.

forces targeting a Jordanian-born militant suspected of

masterminding car bomb attacks throughout Iraq. Chanting

anti-U.S. slogans, hundreds accused the Americans of falsely

claiming that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi had sought refuge here in

order to create an excuse to attack the city. (AP

Photo/Abdul-Kadr Saadi)

They were referring to Americans were they not?

And therefore?

I was pointing out the disparity between the article I quoted and the pic and its caption.

You must be in total shock that I would do such a thing.

Now, I'm curious. How would you explain the disparity?

[bn880 5]

The majority of callers protest against the lack of electricity in Iraq

I wonder why they didn't talk about that on Iraq's previous call in show?

Quote[/b] ]But it is not the country's first talk radio station: before the war, Uday Hussein, Saddam's son, ran Al-Shabab Radio, which allowed callers to talk about love and poetry.

I can just imagine what would have happened:

"Hello. My name is Yusuf. I'm calling in to compalin about why we have one hour of electricity a day, when our Baathist party hack neighbor has 3 phase to run his central air conditioning system"

"Thanks for dropping in Yusuf. Don't worry. Someone will be over soon to fix you - it."

That is not how it was, do you have any proof for this Hollywood production and of the electricity blackout rates during the Hussein Regime and now?

A quick search of the WEB will find you numerous articles. As an example, from Sabotage continues in Iraq, written almost a year ago:

Quote[/b] ]Electricity generation is now about 3,500 to 4,000 megawatts, short of the prewar level of 4,500 megawatts. Under Saddam electricity in Iraq was sporadic and inequitably distributed. Often Baghdad had power at the expense of other parts of the country. Coalition officials want to distribute power more evenly and provide some consistency.

Megawatt numbers alone or claims such as "often" are not true comparisons. You do not know how many homes still may not have power lines going to them and what new consumption has been added by the coalition. Do you have any idea how much coalition AC takes out of the grid, if it's hooked up to it?

Show me a study or a formal report, and not from a US media source again. Not an Israeli, British Australian one as well. There is a war on.

[bn880 5]

The official said one reason why Falluja was relatively calm today, despite the potential for revenge killings or other strife, was because the city's residents had little love for the foreign terrorists.

Several residents agreed today. Their actions, or inactions, spoke even louder.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg....125.jpg

Iraqis demonstrate in Fallujah, Iraq (news - web sites),

Monday June 21, 2004, against the recent airstrikes by U.S.

forces targeting a Jordanian-born militant suspected of

masterminding car bomb attacks throughout Iraq. Chanting

anti-U.S. slogans, hundreds accused the Americans of falsely

claiming that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi had sought refuge here in

order to create an excuse to attack the city. (AP

Photo/Abdul-Kadr Saadi)

They were referring to Americans were they not?

And therefore?

I was pointing out the disparity between the article I quoted and the pic and its caption.

You must be in total shock that I would do such a thing.

Now, I'm curious. How would you explain the disparity?

It all speaks for itself, there is no further explanation needed.

[theavonlady 2]

The majority of callers protest against the lack of electricity in Iraq

I wonder why they didn't talk about that on Iraq's previous call in show?

Quote[/b] ]But it is not the country's first talk radio station: before the war, Uday Hussein, Saddam's son, ran Al-Shabab Radio, which allowed callers to talk about love and poetry.

I can just imagine what would have happened:

"Hello. My name is Yusuf. I'm calling in to compalin about why we have one hour of electricity a day, when our Baathist party hack neighbor has 3 phase to run his central air conditioning system"

"Thanks for dropping in Yusuf. Don't worry. Someone will be over soon to fix you - it."

That is not how it was, do you have any proof for this Hollywood production and of the electricity blackout rates during the Hussein Regime and now?

A quick search of the WEB will find you numerous articles. As an example, from Sabotage continues in Iraq, written almost a year ago:

Quote[/b] ]Electricity generation is now about 3,500 to 4,000 megawatts, short of the prewar level of 4,500 megawatts. Under Saddam electricity in Iraq was sporadic and inequitably distributed. Often Baghdad had power at the expense of other parts of the country. Coalition officials want to distribute power more evenly and provide some consistency.

Megawatt numbers alone or claims such as "often" are not true comparisons.  You do not know how many homes still may not have power lines going to them and what new consumption has been added by the coalition.  Do you have any idea how much coalition AC takes out of the grid, if it's hooked up to it?

Show me a study or a formal report, and not from a US media source again.  Not an Israeli, British Australian one as well.  There is a war on.

I don't have to show you anything. Go dig it up yourself.

Facts seem to be that:

1. Electricity was scarce/limited during Saddam's reign.

2. Life was better for those in high up Baath party positions.

2. No one called in to complain on Uday's Morning Edition talk show.

If you would like to present a scientific analysis of pre/psot Saddam magawattage differences, go right ahead.

[theavonlady 2]

It all speaks for itself, there is no further explanation needed.

Well then, I'll give it a go.

Fallujah is a city containing a larger pro-Saddam and/or anti-American and/or anti-Iraqi Authority population.

Whether those people constitute 10% or 80% of Fallujah's population, I don't know. They certainly would have no qualms of participating in such a protest.

In addition, even Iraqis who are against the terrorists and even if they know for certain that the US strike was accurate, can be anti-American enough to join such a protest.

But other Fallujah residents resent the takeover of their city by these terrorist gangs and as much as they want the US out of Iraq, they're more than happy to see these terrorists eliminated by US forces as long as they're around.

Here, too, we can only take guesses whether such people constitute a majority or a minoroty of Fallujah's population.

So you will see both sides reported on but the reports don't give an accurate assessment of what the "average" Fallujah resident thinks.

[bn880 5]

Facts seem to be that:

1. Electricity was scarce/limited during Saddam's reign.

2. Life was better for those in high up Baath party positions.

2. No one called in to complain on Uday's Morning Edition talk show.

If you would like to present a scientific analysis of pre/psot Saddam magawattage differences, go right ahead.

As for #2, Mr. Martins life is a lot better than mine as well, Bush's life is better than Dinger's. So umm, yeah gee where does it come from. It may have something to do with leadership having to have a better life to lead effectively, and since a party was tied to the government that's the result. Our values are not necessairly someone elses. I would rather not see any religious group have any influence in government, but if that's how it is in 50% of the worlds nations, then that's how it is.

"2. No one called in to complain on Uday's Morning Edition talk show."

Yeah eh, but at least they could call each other and say "damn this month they cut electricity again, damn UN sanctions and US bombings, if it wasnt for the conspiring Americans we'd have Kuwait and live a lot better" it goes both ways, this kind of creativity.

How many people don't have phone lines to their homes yet when compared to pre-war levels. And who do you think it was that targetted the water, electricity, and phone services at the start of the war? The US.

[theavonlady 2]

As for #2, Mr. Martins life is a lot better than mine as well, Bush's life is better than Dinger's.  So  umm, yeah gee where does it come from.  It may have something to do with leadership having to have a better life to lead effectively, and since a party was tied to the government that's the result.  Our values are not necessairly someone elses.  I would rather not see any religious group have any influence in government, but if that's how it is in 50% of the worlds nations, then that's how it is.

Is that the best you could come up with? Suit yourself.

Quote[/b] ]"2. No one called in to complain on Uday's Morning Edition talk show."

Yeah eh, but at least they could call each other and say "damn this month they cut electricity again, damn UN sanctions and US bombings, if it wasnt for the conspiring Americans we'd have Kuwait and live a lot better" it goes both ways, this kind of creativity.

Yes. If only they could have Kuwait........................

Quote[/b] ]How many people don't have phone lines to their homes yet when compared to pre-war levels.

When you find the megawatt report, throw in a phone service report for free, will you?

Quote[/b] ]And who do you think it was that targetted the water, electricity, and phone services at the start of the war? The US.

I've heard rumors that targetting infrastructure is done in wars to complicate the enemy's logistics.

[theavonlady 2]

When you find the megawatt report, throw in a phone service report for free, will you?

Why wait!

Quote[/b] ]PRESS RELEASE

February 26, 2004

<a href="http://www.iraqcoalition.org/pressreleases/20040227_phones.html" target="_blank">USAID AND THE COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY ANNOUNCE THE COMPLETION OF IRAQ

TELEPHONE EXCHANGES REHABILITATION</a>

Baghdad -- The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) and the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) today announced the integration of 13 new telephone switches and an International Satellite Gateway with the 14 existing switches of the Iraqi Telephone and Postal Company (ITPC) in Baghdad. The new switches and international gateway were installed by USAID partner Bechtel.

Before the conflict, 1.1 million Iraqis, half of which were in Baghdad, subscribed to the ITPC for landline telephone service. A large percentage of the capital city’s switching centers were damaged during the conflict and service disrupted. In Baghdad, 240,000 out of 540,000 telephone lines were out of service at 12 separate exchange sites.

As part of the CPA’s overall Reconstruction Program, USAID and its implementing partner, Bechtel, restored the sites, which allow the ITPC to bring all telephone lines back into operation. Containerized, modern telephone switches were installed and are connected to and being monitored and controlled from the new Network Operations Center at Al Mamoun, the largest site in the country. The ITPC staff is connecting network wiring and programming subscriber numbers to allow final activation of the lines. Over 100,000 individual subscriber lines have now been connected. All fully operational telephones nationwide can access the switch at Al Mamoun and the International Satellite Gateway. Once connected to the gateway, outbound international calls can be made using a prepaid phone card. Active subscribers are now receiving inbound international calls.

USAID and Bechtel collaborated closely with the ITPC on this project. ITPC crews performed much of the work including clearing the rubble and leveling the sites, digging new cable ducts, locating intact cable and splicing cables and wiring of the main distribution frames of the switches.

In addition to the exchange switches, USAID partner Bechtel is restoring portions of the main 2,000 kilometer north-south fiber optic backbone, connecting Dahuk in the far north to Umm Qasr in the extreme south. Connectivity between all cities north and south of Baghdad will deliver the voice and data communications Iraq needs both for its immediate requirements and for future economic development.

In support of the Coalition Provisional Authority’s objectives to restore essential services, USAID is allocating $50 million for improving Iraq’s telecommunications infrastructure. For more information on CPA’s and USAID's reconstruction efforts in Iraq including photos, please visit www.iraqcoalition.org and www.usaid.gov/iraq/.

Quote[/b] ]IIRTF - Travelling to Iraq FAQ

18. Are telecommunication services available?

The total number of telephone subscribers in Iraq, including cell phone subscribers, is greater than the number of active subscribers pre-war. The majority of local landline telephone service is now operational in Baghdad. It is anticipated that full local service in Baghdad and nationwide landline connectivity will soon be restored. It is possible for international callers to reach most Iraqi telephone numbers, but there is limited international phone service from Iraq at this time.

The northern Iraqi cities of Dahook, Erbil and Sulaimaniya have reliable landline systems and very good mobile networks; though neither have international calling capability. The city of Kirkuk has a reliable landline system that connects to Baghdad.

International calling capability is being added to landline systems. The Thuraya and Iridium satellite systems are available for international telecommunications links . The Thuraya network has offices in Iraq.

Cell phones are now being distributed and the network, although still limited, is functioning. For information on specific telecommunication providers, please reference the CPA's pamphlet on doing business in Iraq at iraqcoalition.org/business_center.html.

Internet service is increasingly available through Internet cafes and hotels.

For business information on the telecommunications sector, please reference the U.S. Department of Commerce's Business Guide for Iraq at www.export.gov/iraq/bus_climate/businessguide_current.html#com_env.

[bn880 5]

Its like you don't know this is an information war, and a key to any success and power of the coalition is propaganda, especially at home. Thanks for working for the coalition Avon. ;)

[bn880 5]

When you find the megawatt report, throw in a phone service report for free, will you?

Why wait!

Quote[/b] ]PRESS RELEASE

February 26, 2004

<a href="http://www.iraqcoalition.org/pressreleases/20040227_phones.html" target="_blank">USAID AND THE COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY ANNOUNCE THE COMPLETION OF IRAQ

TELEPHONE EXCHANGES REHABILITATION</a>

Baghdad -- The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) and the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) today announced the integration of 13 new telephone switches and an International Satellite Gateway with the 14 existing switches of the Iraqi Telephone and Postal Company (ITPC) in Baghdad. The new switches and international gateway were installed by USAID partner Bechtel.

Before the conflict, 1.1 million Iraqis, half of which were in Baghdad, subscribed to the ITPC for landline telephone service. A large percentage of the capital city’s switching centers were damaged during the conflict and service disrupted. In Baghdad, 240,000 out of 540,000 telephone lines were out of service at 12 separate exchange sites.

As part of the CPA’s overall Reconstruction Program, USAID and its implementing partner, Bechtel, restored the sites, which allow the ITPC to bring all telephone lines back into operation. Containerized, modern telephone switches were installed and are connected to and being monitored and controlled from the new Network Operations Center at Al Mamoun, the largest site in the country. The ITPC staff is connecting network wiring and programming subscriber numbers to allow final activation of the lines. Over 100,000 individual subscriber lines have now been connected. All fully operational telephones nationwide can access the switch at Al Mamoun and the International Satellite Gateway. Once connected to the gateway, outbound international calls can be made using a prepaid phone card. Active subscribers are now receiving inbound international calls.

USAID and Bechtel collaborated closely with the ITPC on this project. ITPC crews performed much of the work including clearing the rubble and leveling the sites, digging new cable ducts, locating intact cable and splicing cables and wiring of the main distribution frames of the switches.

In addition to the exchange switches, USAID partner Bechtel is restoring portions of the main 2,000 kilometer north-south fiber optic backbone, connecting Dahuk in the far north to Umm Qasr in the extreme south. Connectivity between all cities north and south of Baghdad will deliver the voice and data communications Iraq needs both for its immediate requirements and for future economic development.

In support of the Coalition Provisional Authority’s objectives to restore essential services, USAID is allocating $50 million for improving Iraq’s telecommunications infrastructure. For more information on CPA’s and USAID's reconstruction efforts in Iraq including photos, please visit www.iraqcoalition.org and www.usaid.gov/iraq/.

Quote[/b] ]IIRTF - Travelling to Iraq FAQ

18. Are telecommunication services available?

The total number of telephone subscribers in Iraq, including cell phone subscribers, is greater than the number of active subscribers pre-war. The majority of local landline telephone service is now operational in Baghdad. It is anticipated that full local service in Baghdad and nationwide landline connectivity will soon be restored. It is possible for international callers to reach most Iraqi telephone numbers, but there is limited international phone service from Iraq at this time.

The northern Iraqi cities of Dahook, Erbil and Sulaimaniya have reliable landline systems and very good mobile networks; though neither have international calling capability. The city of Kirkuk has a reliable landline system that connects to Baghdad.

International calling capability is being added to landline systems. The Thuraya and Iridium satellite systems are available for international telecommunications links . The Thuraya network has offices in Iraq.

Cell phones are now being distributed and the network, although still limited, is functioning. For information on specific telecommunication providers, please reference the CPA's pamphlet on doing business in Iraq at iraqcoalition.org/business_center.html.

Internet service is increasingly available through Internet cafes and hotels.

For business information on the telecommunications sector, please reference the U.S. Department of Commerce's Business Guide for Iraq at www.export.gov/iraq/bus_climate/businessguide_current.html#com_env.

Is that the best you could come up with? Suit yourself.

Quote[/b] ]The Iraq Investment and Reconstruction Task Force of the U.S. Department of Commerce and this Web site serve as clearinghouses of information for U.S. companies interested in Iraq. The Task Force works closely with the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq, other U.S. Government agencies, and international organizations to provide U.S. companies with the latest information on the commercial environment in Iraq and potential reconstruction business opportunities. Assistant Secretary of Commerce William H. Lash, III serves as Chairman of the Task Force.

Reports on reconstruction from the ones who fail to do it, this is great.

[Veovis 0]

Good news is propoganda, bad news is truth. It's a pretty handy philosophy for the critics to fall back on, isn't it?

[bn880 5]

No, problem is the insecurity in Iraq and that true independent agencies and statements are hard to gather becasue they can't operate there, Iraq is still a war zone after all this time.

[denoir 0]

South Korean hostage 'beheaded' [bBC]

SK yesteday announced that they would be withdrawing all civilians from Iraq.

Avon: On the reconstruction

World Bank warns on Iraq reconstruction [bBC]

Basically there's no shortage of cash for reconstruction, but there is an acute shortage of reconstruction workers. I don't have a link to give you, but I remember reading about a month ago that less than 5% of the work that was supposed to be done by now has actually been done.

As for comparing it to how it was under Saddam when Iraq was under brutal sanctions is missing the point a bit. It should be several orders of magnitude better now when the sanctions are lifted. Yet as the surveys show about 50% of the Iraqis don't think things have gotten better since the removal of Saddam. So the achievements so far in the reconstruction area are less than impressive.

[theavonlady 2]

Its like you don't know this is an information war, and a key to any success and power of the coalition is propaganda, especially at home.  Thanks for working for the coalition Avon. ;)

Any time!

And Al Qaeda thanks you!

[denoir 0]

Good news is propoganda, bad news is truth. It's a pretty handy philosophy for the critics to fall back on, isn't it?  

It's a question of which sources you use. Press releases from the Coalition Provisional Authority is about as unbiased as AQ proclamations. So the importance is to use a news source that is as little biased as possible. Then you take the good and the bad news as news and not propaganda.

Main stream media that have set ethical and professional rules of conduct are usually chosen as an adequately unbiased source. And even if you check a wider political spectrum you'll see that the news from Iraq are predominantly bad. This is even true for the pro-Bush media, such as FOX News.

[Veovis 0]

I find that if I balance the news from the Daily Show and the Onion, I can keep myself informed and unbiased.

[theavonlady 2]

And Al Qaeda thanks you!

Little did I know this would haunt me so soon!

[bn880 5]

I think this report highlights the propaganda issue from the Coalition perfectly:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/31912.pdf

Notice how many attacks/casualties are overlooked to make it appear like the number of terrorist attacks has decreased with the War on Terror. Goto page 20.

Here is a press report on it: http://www.reuters.com/newsArt....5484629

[bn880 5]

Its like you don't know this is an information war, and a key to any success and power of the coalition is propaganda, especially at home. Thanks for working for the coalition Avon. ;)

Any time!

And Al Qaeda thanks you!

Just because I am not prone to listening to propaganda and biased reports does not mean I work for Al Qaeda.

[theavonlady 2]

Its like you don't know this is an information war, and a key to any success and power of the coalition is propaganda, especially at home.  Thanks for working for the coalition Avon. ;)

Any time!

And Al Qaeda thanks you!

Just because I am not prone to listening to propaganda and biased reports does not mean I work for Al Qaeda.

Just because I state press releases that refer to business deals made between the Iraqi government and private business ventures does not mean I work for the coalition.

[Veovis 0]

I am not saying that propoganda is not out there... it most certainly is. But from following this thread it seems to me that the critics jump on any good news as faulty government crap, and supporters jump on bad news as inflated left-wing crap. The people who can unbiasedly sift through this and discuss without bias appear to be few and far between.

[theavonlady 2]

I think this report highlights the propaganda issue from the Coalition perfectly:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/31912.pdf

Notice how many attacks/casualties are overlooked to make it appear like the number of terrorist attacks has decreased with the War on Terror.  Goto page 20.

Here is a press report on it: http://www.reuters.com/newsArt....5484629

This has been discussed already.

Try not changing the subject. Do you have contrary documentation showing a different status for the phone and telephone infrastructures in Iraq before and after the war, or don't you?

[bn880 5]

You made a production about the radio talkshow, you have not proven anything yet.

The majority of callers protest against the lack of electricity in Iraq

I wonder why they didn't talk about that on Iraq's previous call in show?

Quote[/b] ]But it is not the country's first talk radio station: before the war, Uday Hussein, Saddam's son, ran Al-Shabab Radio, which allowed callers to talk about love and poetry.

I can just imagine what would have happened:

"Hello. My name is Yusuf. I'm calling in to compalin about why we have one hour of electricity a day, when our Baathist party hack neighbor has 3 phase to run his central air conditioning system"

"Thanks for dropping in Yusuf. Don't worry. Someone will be over soon to fix you - it."

That is not how it was, do you have any proof for this Hollywood production and of the electricity blackout rates during the Hussein Regime and now?