thirtyg 0 Posted October 17, 2003 Quote[/b] ]The US military wants Australia to buy Abrams tanks, equipped with state-of-the-art sensors and night-fighting gear, for future coalition operations in places such as Iran and Korea. Defence Minister Robert Hill told the Sunday Herald Sun he was still not convinced of the merits of buying new tanks. "The debate has a way to go," Senator Hill said. His spokeswoman said there had not yet been any Government debate on the tank question. The army has argued strongly that light vehicles are highly vulnerable to shoulder-fired weapons, such as the Javelin missile, used by the SAS in Iraq. Tanks were not included in the 2001 Defence Capability Plan after the military failed to persuade the Government of their merits. So far, the military has been unable to convince the Government about who it requires protection from, and where the tanks might be used. Army Chief Lieutenant General Peter Leahy has told the Government he is prepared to sacrifice hundreds of millions of dollars worth of other weapons projects to secure more tanks. He wants the army to move from a light infantry to a light armoured force. It is understood Lt-Gen Leahy favours the German-built, 40-tonne Leopard 2 tank. The army has about 60 fully-operational Leopard 1 tanks, from a total fleet of 100 that entered service 30 years ago. Defence chief General Peter Cosgrove is pushing for the much heavier Abrams main battle tank, which featured prominently in Iraq. The British Challenger II tank is a third possibility. Given the Government is due to reveal a shopping list for $25 billion worth of military hardware at the end of this month what are peoples views on whether we should buy new tanks? What things should the ADF be looking to buy? While i agree the Leopard I is obsolete i question why we need new tanks at all given the current environment we are in... While i'd like to see new tanks i'd prefer to see the money go into new choppers, AA & AT system personally. If i had to choose a tank out of the three i'd say the Abrams if it means we get the latest spec DU armoured versions, although i don't know where we will use them, or how we will transport them anywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EiZei 0 Posted October 17, 2003 Should have bought Russian, much more cheaper. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Donnervogel 0 Posted October 17, 2003 I'd go for Leo2 or Challenger 2. The yank stuff is a copy of those in many important aspects anyway ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FW200 0 Posted October 17, 2003 Oplot MBT Considered by many to be the best in the world.. It's a development of the T-84 with a lot of systems improved... the T-84 is an update of the T-80UD.. The Oplot also has a 120mm gun capable of firing NATO Rounds.. The Turkish version is called the Yatagan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hellfish6 7 Posted October 17, 2003 I think the last thing Australia needs is the M-1 series of tanks. They're super expensive to operate and total overkill for any mission that they might use them for. If Australia is looking for a tank, yes, the Leo2, OPLOT or Challenger 2 are good choices but still may be too expensive and cumbersome to transport, plus, the Indonesians don't have anything remotely threatening to any of them and the southern Group Armies of China, which would be a potential foe for Australia, still operate Type 62, Type 63 and Type 69 tanks, which are hardly a threat to a Leo1, let alone anything newer. If Australia is on the prowl for a new tank, I'd say go with the XM-8 Armored Gun System. I love these things and I was heartbroken when the US decided against purchasing them for the 82nd Airborne and 2nd Armored Cavalry. The XM-8 has the same fire control system as the M-1A2, an auto-loader 105mm gun (with great infantry support rounds like HE-FRAG, beehive, as well as standard HEAT and APFSDS rounds) and armor that is superior to that of the Bradley IFV (which, as you may recall, protects against RPGs) and is modular (I think the Level III armor is stronger than that of the Leo1). The benefits of this design are that it's cheap to operate this vehicle, you can use existing ammunition stocks and training facilities, it has a relatively low cost-per-unit ($2 mill, I believe, compared to $6 mil for the M-1A2), it can be deployed by C-130 (perfect for East Timor/Solomons-like ops) and the fire control system is outstanding. Edit: Pics Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EiZei 0 Posted October 17, 2003 Used Leopard 2s are can be gotten for 500k euros. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hellfish6 7 Posted October 17, 2003 Wow... that's pretty cheap. Why so low? Do they come with all the electronics and fire control systems at that price? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EiZei 0 Posted October 17, 2003 Wow... that's pretty cheap. Why so low? Do they come with all the electronics and fire control systems at that price? AFAIK yes, guess bundeswehr wants to unload some of their older hardware rather than make them rot in the storages. Poland got Leo2s for even cheaper. Of course spare parts, training and upgrades increase the price. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hellfish6 7 Posted October 17, 2003 Poland has Leo2s now?? Holy cow. Where have I been? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EiZei 0 Posted October 17, 2003 Poland has Leo2s now?? Holy cow. Where have I been? http://www.helsinki-hs.net/news.asp?id=20030827IE5 130 of them, 100k euros/tank. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hellfish6 7 Posted October 17, 2003 Quote[/b] ]He added that Greece has also received tanks at almost no cost, and that Romania and Croatia have also asked for Leopards as a donation. Wow... everyone wants to use the Leo2. Are any of these tanks new manufacture, or are they all ex-Bundeswehr tanks? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EiZei 0 Posted October 17, 2003 Quote[/b] ]He added that Greece has also received tanks at almost no cost, and that Romania and Croatia have also asked for Leopards as a donation. Wow... everyone wants to use the Leo2. Are any of these tanks new manufacture, or are they all ex-Bundeswehr tanks? Like the article says, they are used. L2A4 may not be as advanced as L2A6 but its still a capable MBT. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Col. Kurtz 0 Posted October 17, 2003 Regardless of whats good for them, if the Howard government has anything to with it, the ADF will be getting Abrams just because their American and as seen on TV in Iraq. I would probably personally slant in favour of later model Leopards 2's or this wonderful OPLOTS, but I can't really see the Australian government buying tanks off Ukranians, I don't think the Yanks would appreciate their mighty Abrams been ditched in favour of something out of Eastern Europe. But you never know, maybe the entire Liberal party will die soon in Australia and a more open party will take over that isn't so intent on following the US. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ran 0 Posted October 17, 2003 what about the leclerc ? why not buying a Leclerc along with a few A400M , Apache/SCALP stand-off weapons and maybe some ships too ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Frenchman 0 Posted October 17, 2003 what about the leclerc ? Smartest thing I heard all day. "Now thats a tank" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Acecombat 0 Posted October 17, 2003 LECLERC i SAY But i doubt if they will buy it ... maybe the french are a bit pissed off so the deal might not go down well. And if aussies make a eastern bloc deal thats'll be the end of the WORLD. Australia + america + britain = same stuff... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blink Dog 0 Posted October 17, 2003 Build a factory and rebuild the Panther, this is the coolest looking tank ever. Look cool factor is everything. Remember this tank also fought off those mongrel communist hordes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drewb99 0 Posted October 18, 2003 I like the Oplot idea. They look so much better than silly Panthers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blink Dog 0 Posted October 18, 2003 Okay you just declared war sir! that tank looks like an over age hooker with too much makeup on! it is a T-80! with a few different features. trust me if you have seen a Panther close up you would notice the craftsmanship and attension to detail put into it. It may not have a le turd targeting system or some fancy acronym name but it has look cool factor. And thats what counts. Besides why support some east euro economy whn you could build a factory and employ your own citizens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killagee 0 Posted October 18, 2003 I say either OPLOT ot Leopard 2A6 EX. What they should really spend their money on? CV-90 MkIII AIFV'S! The Aussies are firmly up the US's rear end so expect a US purchase Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blink Dog 0 Posted October 18, 2003 Everyone repeat your Panther Mantras! Think positive! If you choose anything else you are giving into the PSH! To learn more about the PSH go here : http://www.operationnorthstar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=357 The truth is only someone elses lies! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blackdog~ 0 Posted October 18, 2003 I like your unbiased opinions for possible tank solutions for the ADF, Fubar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Assault (CAN) 1 Posted October 18, 2003 I hear you Aussies don't even have self-propelled arty. While you're at it, you should buy some M-109's, or the British AS90. I read in an article a while back that the Brits were looking to dump some of their Challenger 2 MBT's and some AS90's. Though that might have changed. Fire-sale prices are always good. A while back, Canada was offered surplus M60's for $1 a piece, and some inexpensive surplus M1A1's. However, the price of parts would have killed us, so we still use the Leo 1's. Failing that, go with whatever is cheaper to operate. Turbine engines become expensive to maintain. So it's either the Abrams or the Leo 2 in my opinion. Stay away from Com-Bloc crap. Tyler Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
