Engagement times.....

[Jamesia 0]

Hi all.

Right now I am downloading various patches after re-installing operation flashpoint because frankly my addons started messing up the game.

There is only going to be ONE addon that I re-install. The SEB nam pack... the pack is very good, but there is one point about it that truly stands out. When the AIs engage enemies, the firefights last longer than 30 seconds.

I have often wandered this about operation flashpoint. WHY ARE THE ENGAGEMENTS ALWAYS OVER SO FAST? In real life they do not seem to last this long, and in the nam pack they do not seem to last this long.

So simply, why are the firefights in flashpoint always over so fast?

[DJOlmstead 0]

This answer is just my opinion. I think that reason why they are so short is because in real fire fights the two sides don't engage each other very quickly. The player speeds things up because most players are impatiant and run out with guns blazing. Try being a civilian and get two AI controlled groups to engage each other in a field or some place with a wide view so you can see everthing. You'll notice that they take their time and the engagments last longer than with human players. And of course in real engagements there are a lot more men involved and they miss a lot more. Not sure why they take longer in the SEB nam pack... Oh well, just a thought.

[Yamato 0]

I think the reason why it takes longer in NamPack is because they have set the accuracy of each guns lower than those that we see in many addons, which is one of the many reasons why I LOVE NamPack, along with the claymores

Try to play as a US Soldier and shoot a target. You will notice that the weapons in NamPack doesn't always land on top of the crosshair.

[Jamesia 0]

If you re-created the battle for baghdad on your operation flashpoint it would a) melt your computer and bring your framerate down to about 0.00000000000000000000000000001 fps and it would also b) be finished in ten minutes.

[Bordoy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jamesia @ Mar. 28 2003,20:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you re-created the battle for baghdad on your operation flashpoint it would a) melt your computer and bring your framerate down to about 0.00000000000000000000000000001 fps and it would also b) be finished in ten minutes.<span id='postcolor'>

i know this is going abit off-topic but Baghdad is gonna be the next Stalingrad.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So simply, why are the firefights in flashpoint always over so fast? <span id='postcolor'>

So simply, why are you posting more crap? This has been discussed many times in many threads.

[Jamesia 0]

No it hasent. Im sure i would have noticed it if it had.

I think that it could be because AI soldiers are extremely accurate, and do not seem to provide surpressing fire. I think that surpressing fire should be added. AI soldiers only seem to fire if they have an enemies head in their iron sights.

[Harnu 0]

I'm sure you notice lot's of things..

I recall seeing this topic a lot of times in other threads. Maybe you overlooked them, maybe I'm crazy...

Hell, prolly a little of both

[Bordoy 0]

yer, the machine gunners seem to fire single shots.

[USMC Sniper 0]

The battles are over so fast in OFP because the AI doesn't care for it's "life". They just lie there firing shots until they die, maybe sometimes getting up and running around. This was one of the things I liked about Ghost Recon. The AI hid, would flank you, sneak up behind you, run away from grenades, suppress your position, etc. In OFP the machine-gunners are extremely crappy, they don't use their gun for what it's for. Also, the fact that the grenades explode on impact is a major downer in terms of engagement speed. The AI doesn't give a damn if a grenade is going towards them. The engagements are a bit longer with HP weapons, but still not slow enough. I highly doubt a real soldier would lie in the same position for an entire fight, they'd probably move from palce to place and take potshots, sometime lying down and aiming. But I don't know, I've never been in the Army or a real engagement.

[blackdog~ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USMC Sniper @ Mar. 28 2003,20:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The battles are over so fast in OFP because the AI doesn't care for it's "life". They just lie there firing shots until they die, maybe sometimes getting up and running around. This was one of the things I liked about Ghost Recon. The AI hid, would flank you, sneak up behind you, run away from grenades, suppress your position, etc. In OFP the machine-gunners are extremely crappy, they don't use their gun for what it's for. Also, the fact that the grenades explode on impact is a major downer in terms of engagement speed. The AI doesn't give a damn if a grenade is going towards them. The engagements are a bit longer with HP weapons, but still not slow enough. I highly doubt a real soldier would lie in the same position for an entire fight, they'd probably move from palce to place and take potshots, sometime lying down and aiming. But I don't know, I've never been in the Army or a real engagement. <span id='postcolor'>

When I see a grenade coming towards me its already a few inches from my face

[walker 0]

Hi all

The battles in OFP are smaller than in real life they are just section level. So they are shorter.

It is only by using the Command Engine or something like it you will get battles of a size that imitates real life. In other words platoon level company level and battalion level.

Having said that the main factor is WHO HAS THE INITIATIVE. Are you the defender or the attacker?

If you play BS01 a platoon level engagement most of the battle is planning and moving into position. The actual battle lasts 5 minutes if you do it right.

BS06 where you wait in defense lasts 5 hours real time. It is a company level engagement in defense. You spend a lot of time waiting to see what the enemy will do and reacting to it.

From what I have read in military biographies, and I don't know because I have never been in the military, most battles are hours of boring waiting with tense periods of anticipation followed by minutes or seconds manic action.

Real wars are not Counter Strike it is the reason I play OFP. We have several serving and former soldiers in the CoC team and they tell me that the command engine and similar systems come closer to the reality of war.

However we should not confuse this with real life. Comparing what is happening in the world at the moment to this game is not respectful to the brave soldiers on both sides and innocent civilians who are being injured and dieing.

Even when it is a military level simulation OFP is not real life. It is a simulation, a useful tool for practice of certain scenarios. Life has smell taste and touch, such things are very visceral. So a visual and sound representation no matter how good does not portray the reality. None of you would like the smell of a lot of blood which makes you gyp and retch. So smelly-vision would never make it in OFP.

Kind Regards walker

[mr. Duck 0]

I wonder if the engagements would be somewhat longer if you set "this allowfleeing 0.9" for each combatants and make the weapons a bit more inaccurate. That's if the AI would return after it retreated. Dunno, y'all could experiment with it.

[toadeater 0]

Someone created a script to increase the recoil on the AI's guns so that they can no longer shoot like they have laser rifles. It utilizes the "fired" event handler. You can add this to any mission, and it doesn't lag the game. Just be prepared for troops to run out of ammo alot quicker. I suppose it could also work well for specific units rather than adding it to every single one, so that the difference between conscripts and elite troops would be more dramatic.

Put this in the unit's init line:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">this addeventhandler [""fired"", {_this exec ""spray.sqs""}]<span id='postcolor'>

Now create a text file named spray.sqs with the following and put it in the mission's folder:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE"> _man = _this select 0

_count = 0

_start1 = "start1"

_start2 = "start2"

_start1_and_start2_array = [_start1, _start2]

_random = random (count _start1_and_start2_array)

_random = _random - _random % 1

_randomstart = _start1_and_start2_array select _random

_man removealleventhandlers "fired"

_mandir = getdir _man

goto _randomstart

#start1

_man setdir _mandir

_mandir = _mandir + 0.06

_count = _count + 1

? _count > 50: goto "end"

~0.01

goto "start1"

#start2

_man setdir _mandir

_mandir = _mandir - 0.06

_count = _count + 1

? _count > 50: goto "end"

~0.01

goto "start2"

#end

_man addeventhandler ["fired", {[_this select 0]  exec "spray.sqs"}]

exit

<span id='postcolor'>

Have fun.

[johnnylump 0]

I think J hit it right ... the key issue is a lack of suppressing fire. People shoot to keep the other guy's head down far more often than to kill him. If AI guys actually got "suppressed" by MG fire (and gunners actually fired to suppress rather than to kill) battles would take a longer and there proly would be less casualties.

[benreeper 0]

The reason why the SEB firefights last longer is because they made the ammo dispersion for the weapons higher. Red did this a year and a half ago for the same reason. This is great except for one thing: You cannot carry alot of ammo. In RL a loadout for a person firing 556mm ammo can be 30 mags! On OFP it's usually 4 to 6. You'll usually run out of ammo at about the same time that an egagement with lower dispersion weapons will end.

Ben

[SGTKOPP 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (benreeper @ April 01 2003,14:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The reason why the SEB firefights last longer is because they made the ammo dispersion for the weapons higher.  Red did this a year and a half ago for the same reason.  This is great except for one thing: You cannot carry alot of ammo.  In RL a loadout for a person firing 556mm ammo can be 30 mags! On OFP it's usually 4 to 6.  You'll usually run out of ammo at about the same time that an egagement with lower dispersion weapons will end.

Ben<span id='postcolor'>

in real life the combat load for 5.56mm ammo is 210 rds or 7mags 30mags is a lot of weight that a soldier on th eground does not want to carry i personnaly carry 10 mags

[Johan_D 0]

Maybe it is possible to have one script and a huge trigger area that works for everything that shoots inside it?

Then all parties are equal, and firefights may take a little longer then?

Johan

[Johan_D 0]

BUMP

You have any ideas guys?

Johan

[dayglow 2]

That's one thing that is missing from OFP, is the fear for life in the ai. Suppressive fire is suicide because it broadcasts your position to the ai and unless you are landing rounds right on them they will take their sweet time and line up a shot and cap you

Could you imagine using your support element for that purpose? laying down fire so you can move into a flanking position? That would be great.

COLINMAN

[Jamesia 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DayGlow @ April 04 2003,08:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Suppressive fire is suicide because it broadcasts your position to the ai and unless you are landing rounds right on them they will take their sweet time and line up a shot and cap you

COLINMAN<span id='postcolor'>

Yes. that is a good point. whenever I do surprising fire I get shot.

[JJonth Cheeky Monkey 1]

The Machine Gunners are pretty crap because they are so accurate, try it in v1.91 or what ever and the MGs will mow down everything within an 800m radius. Ive made some more smaller M16s (not 1.5m long oversized Howitzers), but anyway now the AI fires them full auto (or multiple bursts) at close range, it seems a lot more realistic with everyone else firing their weapons in full auto and not just you.

[KeyCat 131]

The (optional) high dispersion ammo is one of the reasons why I love SEB Nampack 2.0 for co-op missions. When enemy targets you it gives you a few seconds to react (i.e hit the ground and find cover) and let you experience more intense and longer lasting firefights.

Also noticed that Bibmi's African militia pack includes (optional) high dispersion ammo for M4, M16, M60 as well as AK47 and PK's that can be used in other missions since it's an separate PBO-file.

Just my 0.20 SEK

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

[the_unknown_one 0]

hmmm.. when i make missions with the BAS deltas, i PREFER shorter fight times. Its kinda like qwik strong drug doses as opposed to long-drwan out ones( ive never taken them so im probably wrong here in my analogy) I like to set my team out in a line behind or flanking the enemy, then BOOM i give the order to fire and you hear bursts of fire reeking out, and then sudenly the russians are all running and falling. Man it's great. once i did it so there was a group of african militia running towards a downed UH-60, while me and my team were flanking them

when they got to a certain point, i would say "go go go" etc. and then sudenly theres 15 bodies on the floor. It is great fun to surprise the enemy that way. Just set it up, its fun.  

EDIT>> also the BAS delta/ranger pack has a HD ak74, so Wirth that and HD m16 etc. u could have a ruskie/nato HD fight. Obviously

[rouge1 0]

Well there was a Fire Dispersion script over ofpec.com in the fourms BETA testing it kinda simulates surpressive fire very well beceause the AI machine gunners cover an area with bullets then indivual pepole and it works with any sort of unit Air,ground,soldiers, possibley ships not sure but you need resitance but everone here has got it right