The Dogs of War

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 25 2003,01:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The fight for Baghdad will not be decided in the city itself, but rather how well we execute in the next few days. If we can maul and then roll up the RG divisions south of Baghdad, that will substantially weaken what will ultimately be the Baghdad garrison. If we can do that, the absolute best case scenario is we role into Baghdad with no greater opposition than irregulars in small groups. That isn't going to happen though. More likely, we'll hit the RG divisions hard, but we simply don't have the strength or position right now to cut their remnants off from Baghdad, and that is the key to taking Baghdad.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't really agree with that. There are two-three RG division running around outside Baghdad, but there are still 4 divisions in Baghdad plus 5 division regulars and who knows how many reserves. Add to that 40,000 of the Special Republican Guard units and 25,000 of the fedayeen troops. That's a lot of man power in the city.

[hellfish6 7]

Does anyone know what kind of AT missiles the Russians supposedly sold to Iraq are? I mean, it's one thing if they sold AT-3s, another thing if the RG's have AT-13s.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 25 2003,11:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Mar. 25 2003,16:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am not actually biased, I am making decisions based on what I know and see. As for the examination, it is not only mine. Face it you can't handle the pressure of loss so you are attacking me personally.

So far I have been 100% right about no real WMD capability and civilians being armed and civilians resisting. We will see how it all pans out, but you should think twice before questioning me my friend.

MY BIAS IS I UNDERSTAND AND LEARN FROM HISTORY <span id='postcolor'>

LOL!!, yeah sure dude, believe what you want about some of your statements. Time will prove one or the other wrong. Just be prepared to have some of the things you've said shoved in your face if it turns out to be you. I'll do the same.<span id='postcolor'>

Like I said, so far, and we will see.

I am 100% confident in the Coalition claiming Saddam had great amounts of WMD's, wether it's true or not.

At least I have the courage to admit what I believe even if you think it's against the odds.

This is another statement from me: get off my ass you Coalition loving war mongers, I disagree with you and your case, I will continue to post here, and if you keep attacking me personally I will make complaints to the moderators. You are one one side of the fence, I am on the other in this issue, don't try to undermine me personally as this is not a thread about me, it's about the war.

[Badgerboy 0]

Seems no-one was hurt this time. Not sure if the Patriot was hit.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hellfish6 @ Mar. 25 2003,17:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does anyone know what kind of AT missiles the Russians supposedly sold to Iraq are? I mean, it's one thing if they sold AT-3s, another thing if the RG's have AT-13s.<span id='postcolor'>

I think they mentioned AT-14 Kornet missiles. Not 100% sure.

[ZIKAN 0]

Jet found in Cemetary

Whats also interesting about that article, is the annoucement of coalition troops deployed by parachute, which AFAIK hasnt been mentioned before.

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZIKAN @ Mar. 25 2003,11:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jet found in Cemetary

Whats also interesting about that article, is the annoucement of coalition troops deployed by parachute, which AFAIK hasnt been mentioned before.<span id='postcolor'>

I wonder if the US bomb that jet, if Iraq will claim that they found 5000 dead civillians at the bomb site.

-=Die Alive=-

[Tovarish 0]

Abot the F-16 vs Patriot incident.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....fing_44

"all parties involved executed according to their training."

gee that's reassuring.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 25 2003,17:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't really agree with that. There are two-three RG division running around outside Baghdad, but there are still 4 divisions in Baghdad plus 5 division regulars and who knows how many reserves. Add to that 40,000 of the Special Republican Guard units and 25,000 of the fedayeen troops. That's a lot of man power in the city.<span id='postcolor'>

Supposing that those dispositions are correct, then it will be impossible to storm the city. It'll have to be a siege, and in that case a decisive victory against the RG south of Baghdad is still key, as it allows the Coalition to seal up Baghdad in short order, unless Saddam wants to dilute his Baghdad garrison by sending a couple divisions out to play. With that amount of manpower in Baghdad itself I imagine it's difficult to supply them all with proper equipment under the best circumstances- think about how badly they'd be off in the event of a siege. Of course, it would be worse for the civilian population, which I think we agreed on over 3 months ago

But either way, a decisive victory against the southern RG units is what will put the Coalition in a favorable position for either an assault or a siege. And that is why it is key.

[CosmicCastaway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZIKAN @ Mar. 25 2003,17:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jet found in Cemetary

Whats also interesting about that article, is the annoucement of coalition troops deployed by parachute, which AFAIK hasnt been mentioned before.<span id='postcolor'>

I liked this excerpt from that article:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"This is a sign of the regime's intentions. We are finding equipment located in places we think it should not be located," he said.

"This plane is some 4,000 metres from the airfield, where we would expect to find aircraft."

<span id='postcolor'>

Lol! Damn the Iraqis, they arn't putting things where they're supposed to! Anyone would think they were trying to make this difficult.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Mar. 25 2003,1703)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Americans have run away from Basra fearing casualties, they are leaving it to the Brits.<span id='postcolor'>

This fear of casualties is, of course, why we are driving straight to Baghdad by way of Nasiriyah.

I assume that the RAF does not conduct any sort of urinalysis screening?

For the second time, I point out that the original order of battle called for the Brits to secure Basra.

Semper Fi

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 25 2003,17:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 25 2003,17:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't really agree with that. There are two-three RG division running around outside Baghdad, but there are still 4 divisions in Baghdad plus 5 division regulars and who knows how many reserves. Add to that 40,000 of the Special Republican Guard units and 25,000 of the fedayeen troops. That's a lot of man power in the city.<span id='postcolor'>

Supposing that those dispositions are correct, then it will be impossible to storm the city. It'll have to be a siege, and in that case a decisive victory against the RG south of Baghdad is still key, as it allows the Coalition to seal up Baghdad in short order, unless Saddam wants to dilute his Baghdad garrison by sending a couple divisions out to play. With that amount of manpower in Baghdad itself I imagine it's difficult to supply them all with proper equipment under the best circumstances- think about how badly they'd be off in the event of a siege. Of course, it would be worse for the civilian population, which I think we agreed on over 3 months ago <span id='postcolor'>

I don't know if a siege is an option. First, it would hurt the civilians much more and much sooner then the military. I don't think the coalition forces are willing to starve 6 million people (well, I hope not anyway).  Considering how careful they have been so far not to hit civilian targets, I'd say that it's a valid assumption.

Second, I'm not sure it's possible. Baghdad is a huge city and I think more troops would be required to hold the perimeter.

Other news:

Blackhawk & Apache missing

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Abot the F-16 vs Patriot incident.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....fing_44

"all parties involved executed according to their training."

gee that's reassuring.<span id='postcolor'>

Lucky for the Patriot crew that the GR4 that was shot down wasn't carrying ALARMS. The HARM might have damaged the radar, the ALARM would have flattened it.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZIKAN @ Mar. 25 2003,17:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jet found in Cemetary

Whats also interesting about that article, is the annoucement of coalition troops deployed by parachute, which AFAIK hasnt been mentioned before.<span id='postcolor'>

Hats off to the Iraqis on this one. Very clever. Bomb + cemetery = lots of dead bodies all over the place ----> great propaganda photo-op; nevermind that the civilians had kicked the bucket 25 years prior

[ZIKAN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 25 2003,17:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 25 2003,17:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't really agree with that. There are two-three RG division running around outside Baghdad, but there are still 4 divisions in Baghdad plus 5 division regulars and who knows how many reserves. Add to that 40,000 of the Special Republican Guard units and 25,000 of the fedayeen troops. That's a lot of man power in the city.<span id='postcolor'>

Supposing that those dispositions are correct, then it will be impossible to storm the city. It'll have to be a siege, and in that case a decisive victory against the RG south of Baghdad is still key, as it allows the Coalition to seal up Baghdad in short order, unless Saddam wants to dilute his Baghdad garrison by sending a couple divisions out to play. With that amount of manpower in Baghdad itself I imagine it's difficult to supply them all with proper equipment under the best circumstances- think about how badly they'd be off in the event of a siege. Of course, it would be worse for the civilian population, which I think we agreed on over 3 months ago

But either way, a decisive victory against the southern RG units is what will put the Coalition in a favorable position for either an assault or a siege. And that is why it is key.<span id='postcolor'>

I quite agree, a big victory in the north or the south of the major cities would certainly be demoralising for defending Iraqi

troops. But the Fedayeen units (similar), would certainly want to fight on, they have nothing to loose. I dont think the coalition would allow them to live in any case as they pose a serious threat now and in the future.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 25 2003,17:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know if a siege is an option. First, it would hurt the civilians much more and much sooner then the military. I don't think the coalition forces are willing to starve 6 million people (well, I hope not anyway).  Considering how careful they have been so far not to hit civilian targets, I'd say that it's a valid assumption.

Second, I'm not sure it's possible. Baghdad is a huge city and I think more troops would be required to hold the perimeter.

[/url]<span id='postcolor'>

It certainly isn't palatable from a political standpoint, but as far as I know it would be feasible from a practical view. We have enough troops and firepower to cover the main access points and a good portion of the boondocks on the outskirts- from there our air and surveillance assets can cover any gaps. Not ideal, but then again the days of conducting sieges by lining up your soldiers elbow to elbow are over. The point is that we can cover the roads and access routes that could be used to feasibly resupply or relieve the garrison, and we also stand a good chance of being able to seal up more insignificant token routes with an equal amount of effectiveness. A siege would be possible, but it would be a very untraditional siege.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Since we are technically supposed to be reporting the day-to-day combat, apparently last night the Marines 3rd LAR engaged a large group of irregulars, who attacked initially with light vehicles and RPGs, and then dismounted and charged the Marines, using berms as cover. A few got as close as about 60 meters. The final tally when the bodies were counted the next day: 50+ KIA Iraqis, 0 Marine casualties. I saw some of the footage of the LAVs lighting up the light vehicles- very impressive gunnery for pitch-dark.

[ZIKAN 0]

Breaking News from BBC, Civillian Uprising in Basra, Iraqi troops firing on their own people with mortars, British Artillery carrying out counter battery fire on to Iraqi positions in support.

[Schoeler 0]

I've heard there are only 15,000 Special Reuplican Guards dug in in Baghdad proper, and three divisions of Republican Guard dug in in a line south of the city. The rest of the divisions were used to stiffen the backbone of the regular army units, and the Fedayeen were deployed to other cities to conduct guerilla operations on occupying forces and the supply chain.

Even still, 15,000 is a LOT of opposition for an urban environment, and could give the Marines another Hue City if they fight.

The key is to get airborne units between the 3 southern divisions and Baghdad, and keep them from falling back into the city. If these guys can be annihilated, then the others may fold.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZIKAN @ Mar. 25 2003,18:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">News from BBC, Uprising in Basra, Iraqi troops firing on their own people.<span id='postcolor'>

How's the saying go? "Every society in the world is three square meals away from a rebellion"

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZIKAN @ Mar. 25 2003,18:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Breaking News from BBC, Civillian Uprising in Basra, Iraqi troops firing on their own people with mortars, British Artillery carrying out counter battery fire on to Iraqi positions in support.<span id='postcolor'>

Interesting. It looks like the Sh'ia are on the move. If you remember they tried to pull this off after GW1 but Saddam managed to crack down the uprising.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've heard there are only 15,000 Special Reuplican Guards dug in in Baghdad proper, and three divisions of Republican Guard dug in in a line south of the city. The rest of the divisions were used to stiffen the backbone of the regular army units, and the Fedayeen were deployed to other cities to conduct guerilla operations on occupying forces and the supply chain.

Even still, 15,000 is a LOT of opposition for an urban environment, and could give the Marines another Hue City if they fight.

The key is to get airborne units between the 3 southern divisions and Baghdad, and keep them from falling back into the city. If these guys can be annihilated, then the others may fold.

<span id='postcolor'>

Military intelligence estimates put the number of troops defending Baghdad in the 200,000-500,000 ball park, including regulars and RG.

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 25 2003,18:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZIKAN @ Mar. 25 2003,18:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Breaking News from BBC, Civillian Uprising in Basra, Iraqi troops firing on their own people with mortars, British Artillery carrying out counter battery fire on to Iraqi positions in support.<span id='postcolor'>

Interesting. It looks like the Sh'ia are on the move. If you remember they tried to pull this off after GW1 but Saddam managed to crack down the uprising.<span id='postcolor'>

That's not gonna happen this time around. Go Iraqis! Kick some ass! I hope we can give them air and artillery support.

[ZIKAN 0]

It would be interesting to know what kind of percentage of the population of Baghdad are Sh'ia...

[Othin 0]

Does anyone know what forces in Basra are firing on the other Iraqis? Is it the regular forces, or some of the irregular forces?

I'm surprised that they started their rebellion this early, I was thinking it wouldn't happen until early April. I guess the water plant was the factor that no one had figured on.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ Mar. 25 2003,18:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does anyone know what forces in Basra are firing on the other Iraqis?  Is it the regular forces, or some of the irregular forces?

I'm surprised that they started their rebellion this early, I was thinking it wouldn't happen until early April.  I guess the water plant was the factor that no one had figured on.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, apparently it's mortar fire, so it could be anyone from security forces to regulars to Ba'ath militia to Fedayeen.