The Dogs of War

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Mar. 25 2003,00:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In case anyone missed it,  Iran has determined that the missiles that hit its territory are actually Iraqi and not U.S.<span id='postcolor'>

Good news, that!

The last thing the US needs right now is an angry Iran chafing at the bit to take a bite out of the captured bits of Iraq.

[interstat 0]

Anyone got a URL for a good map of Iraq, including terrain and vegetation?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Mar. 25 2003,00:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In case anyone missed it,  Iran has determined that the missiles that hit its territory are actually Iraqi and not U.S.<span id='postcolor'>

I posted it two days ago

[interstat 0]

found one, very indepth:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/iraq.html#iraq_thematic.html

also check this out on the website:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps....002.jpg

very handy

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 25 2003,0005)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Switching back to the actual war, does anybody have any ideas of how Baghdad could be taken?<span id='postcolor'>

[booger] I say we blow the fuckers up. [/booger]

Semper Fi

[interstat 0]

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps....003.jpg

Man Baghdad is pretty complex in some places, could get hairy in there.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (interstat @ Mar. 25 2003,00:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps....003.jpg

Man Baghdad is pretty complex in some places, could get hairy in there.<span id='postcolor'>

There is a good satellite map here.

[interstat 0]

Al Kut seems a strategic point, is there any news on whther the Iraqis are still in possession of that city?

Thanks for the map Denoir, that website I recommended has some good resources, especially the ethnic regions and terrain makeup.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

The fight for Baghdad will not be decided in the city itself, but rather how well we execute in the next few days. If we can maul and then roll up the RG divisions south of Baghdad, that will substantially weaken what will ultimately be the Baghdad garrison. If we can do that, the absolute best case scenario is we role into Baghdad with no greater opposition than irregulars in small groups. That isn't going to happen though. More likely, we'll hit the RG divisions hard, but we simply don't have the strength or position right now to cut their remnants off from Baghdad, and that is the key to taking Baghdad.

[Nathanz 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 25 2003,01:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (interstat @ Mar. 25 2003,00:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps....003.jpg

Man Baghdad is pretty complex in some places, could get hairy in there.<span id='postcolor'>

There is a good satellite map here.<span id='postcolor'>

wow thats a awesome high quality picture, thanks

sorry if this is a bit offtopic but does any one know what those 7 star things are at the top left side of the map ?

[interstat 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">sorry if this is a bit offtopic but does any one know what those 7 star things are at the top left side of the map ?<span id='postcolor'>

looks like a park of some sort.

Check out the housing down the bottom, oooohhh, gotta hurt...

[Nathanz 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (interstat @ Mar. 25 2003,01:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">sorry if this is a bit offtopic but does any one know what those 7 star things are at the top left side of the map ?<span id='postcolor'>

looks like a park of some sort.

Check out the housing down the bottom, oooohhh, gotta hurt...<span id='postcolor'>

meh thinks its some kind of secret ufo landing site

[interstat 0]

Apparently Baghdad has over 5 million people living there (London is about 6-7 miliion people), the coaliton invaders are going to need reinforcements if they wish to take baghdad, especially if the resisitance from the Iraq side continues like it is, or if it intensifies.

[bn880 5]

8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 24 2003,198)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If we can maul and then roll up the RG divisions south of Baghdad,<span id='postcolor'>

We will see who that actually helps. The ball is almost completely in Iraqi hands now. No I won't explain...

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Mar. 24 2003,16:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We will see who that actually helps.  <!--emo&   The ball is almost completely in Iraqi hands now.   No I won't explain...  <span id='postcolor'>

Then why bother posting? Oh wait, I know why... Keep that candle burning if it makes you feel better though!

I think the air strikes on the Iraqi divisions are going to continue to increase over the next few days. The Coalition wasn't expecting the Republican Guard to surrender, so the gloves will be completely off for those battles and you're going to see a significantly different ROE. Time is also somewhat on the coalition side since there will be an influx of troops into the region soon (those that were earmarked for Turkey). As long as they can keep their rear guards from being too harried.

As the food and supplies hit the region, the battle for hearts and minds will start to improve. That's mainly on hold until the sea mine clearing operations are finished. I think many of the Iraqi people still aren't sure what to believe. Plus you still have a very active prescense of IIS and others in the cities working on their own propaganda war.

I'd be willing to "bet" we see some Shia uprisings in the next month to two month time frame. They want to be sure that the Americans are fully vested in regime change before they rise up again. We should also see the Kurds making their contributions in this time frame.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Mar. 25 2003,01:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 24 2003,19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If we can maul and then roll up the RG divisions south of Baghdad,<span id='postcolor'>

We will see who that actually helps.  <!--emo&   The ball is almost completely in Iraqi hands now.   No I won't explain...  <span id='postcolor'>

zZz... you're boring me, really you are. Post something substantive or stop spamming. I know you'd just love to see some more pictures of American corpses, but you keep on forgetting that for every American you see on-camera, there are 50 or so dead or surrendered Iraqi soldiers. And we don't parade enemy bodies on camera; it's not our style. I think a simple comparison of tactics and behavior will show you who the good guys are.

[PFC_Mike 2]

This post was too political.  It has been removed, and the poster is free to post it in the political Iraq thread.

This is a final warning, I would say.  keep trying to drag the discussion into the idealogical/political arena and PR's might have to start being handed out. And that is directed at all of you. Take it to the other thread please!

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 25 2003,01:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think a simple comparison of tactics and behavior will show you who the good guys are.<span id='postcolor'>

Doesn't matter! The iraqi forces have the right to fight for their cities just as you would in your own homeland if war emerged. Civilians will die and the reason for that - to put it blunt - is because of your invasion. They will be killed directly by you because of fighting - and indirectly because of starving due to your forces encirceling of their cities.

Don't expect them to see you as "liberators". As I stated in the other thread sentiments in Baghdad are chainging to Saddams advantage despite the fact that they hate him. They just hate you more!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know you'd just love to see some more pictures of American corpses<span id='postcolor'>

I know - it's not my fight - but I find that comment rather tasteless!

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Doesn't matter! The iraqi forces have the right to fight for their cities just as you would in your own homeland if war emerged. Civilians will die and the reason for that - to put it blunt - is because of your invasion. They will be killed directly by you because of fighting - and indirectly because of starving due to your forces encirceling of their cities.

Don't expect them to see you as "liberators". As I stated in the other thread sentiments in Baghdad are chainging to Saddams advantage despite the fact that they hate him. They just hate you more!

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes. I'm not at all surprised that they're fighting, and I don't even care they've gone to guerrila tactics; if, heaven forbid ( ) Mexico invaded Texas, I know I'd grab a rifle and boogy off into the mesquite. What I'm talking about is the BS propaganda, using human shields, mistreatment and possible execution of POWs, and the general brutality of the Iraqi regime. In contrast, we are bending over backwards to try and make life easier on the enemy and the civilians that the enemy is trying so hard to get killed. For someone who works up such a fine sense of moral outrage over all the crimes of TBA, you sure seem to be fatalistic about the crimes of the Iraqi regime. But I guess it's just hypocrisy, so no real need to get worked up about it. Also, refer to the Iraq Thread for the fact that civilians dying is the constant if you look at this scenario as an equation. Civilians will die in a war, civilians will die under Saddam. The difference is that civilians will stop dying after the victorious conclusion of a war, but will continue to die under Saddam's rule.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know - it's not my fight - but I find that comment rather tasteless!<span id='postcolor'>

I'm glad you think so, as I find it rather tastless as well. Unfortunately, it is dead on the money as far as I can see. Prove me wrong and I will apologize.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">*censored*, are you a *censored*? <span id='postcolor'>

The term *censored* is not *censored*, so hold your horses there... It was a term used to describe the thin condition of people that *censored* forces encountered in *censored*. Just because the *censored* are *censored* does not make the comment *censored*, sure it's *censored*, but not *censored*.

Back on topic:

Just looking at that photo of Baghdad that Denoir posted boggled my mind, just imagine having to clear out every one of those houses, wow.

It seems as if the Iraqis might beleive what they are being told by Saddam, that they can win and that we are the great satan. Afterall, he has been in control for a long time and some of the younger Iraqis would know no different. If anything, I think they should bomb the Iraqi government controlled media sources, like TV and radio stations. Didn't they do something similar in Kosovo? Bombing tansmitters and such? If Saddam had no way of handing out propaganda to his people, it might go a long way to help the war effort in the department of winning hearts and minds, and such... but it could go the other way, as it would piss off the fantics. I don't know, just venting some ideas.

Also: I hope they take that Asan Akbar guy and put him up in front of a firing sqaud. Anyone else feel the same?

Tyler

[Edit] Edited to remove any political references.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Mar. 25 2003,02:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also: I hope they take that Asan Akbar guy and put him up in front of a firing sqaud. Anyone else feel the same?<span id='postcolor'>

If the UCMJ lists that as a remedy for his crimes, I think they should do just that.

But I am willing to bet that in the name of 'political correctness' they will just stick him in prison for life.

I still wonder what kind of bright guy sent a muslim to fight in Iraq. While you shouldnt discriminate based on religion, I am sure there are lots of jobs in the Army stateside for folks who might have some moral and religious problems with the current conflict.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 25 2003,02:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes. I'm not at all surprised that they're fighting, and I don't even care they've gone to guerrila tactics; if, heaven forbid ( ) Mexico invaded Texas, I know I'd grab a rifle and boogy off into the mesquite. What I'm talking about is the BS propaganda, using human shields, mistreatment and possible execution of POWs, and the general brutality of the Iraqi regime. <span id='postcolor'>

I haven't disputed this - ever!

So I guess we agree on this.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In contrast, we are bending over backwards to try and make life easier on the enemy and the civilians that the enemy is trying so hard to get killed. <span id='postcolor'>

I don't doubt the coalition force tries to avoid civilian casualties. My point is that a whole lot more will get killed as a result of your forces being there in the first place (this probably belongs in the political thread) . And there will certainly be more casualties because of the war compared to Saddams brutal reign during "normal" times.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For someone who works up such a fine sense of moral outrage over all the crimes of TBA, you sure seem to be fatalistic about the crimes of the Iraqi regime. <span id='postcolor'>

Oh, I'm so tired of telling you this over and over again. Saddam is a murderous bastard and should be sent to hell.

Only one problem with that and that is to what cost?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 25 2003,02:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For someone who works up such a fine sense of moral outrage over all the crimes of TBA, you sure seem to be fatalistic about the crimes of the Iraqi regime. <span id='postcolor'>

Oh, I'm so tired of telling you this over and over again. Saddam is a murderous bastard and should be sent to hell.

Only one problem with that and that is to what cost?<span id='postcolor'>

What cost? That's simple: about 80 billion dollars, a couple thousand Coalition casualties, several thousand Iraqi military casualties, and about a thousand (tops) Iraqi civilian casualties. And an increase in anti-American sentiment in the world (but this will happen anyways, n'est-ce pas?) What do you get for this?

A Saddam-free Iraq. This alone, in my opinion, is worth the price of admission.

Lifting of UN sanctions, leaving Iraq free to cash in on its considerable natural resources. Within a decade, Iraq could be one of the more prosperous countries in the region, and democratic no less.

A possible resolution of the tensions between the ethnic groups within Iraq. Possibly. That's still a ways off, but a distinct possibility.

And from a US-centric point of view, a complete and final assurance that weapons manufactured under Saddam's regime will not fall into the hands of terrorists.

There you go.

[edc 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the UCMJ lists that as a remedy for his crimes, I think they should do just that.

But I am willing to bet that in the name of 'political correctness' they will just stick him in prison for life.

I still wonder what kind of bright guy sent a muslim to fight in Iraq. While you shouldnt discriminate based on religion, I am sure there are lots of jobs in the Army stateside for folks who might have some moral and religious problems with the current conflict.

<span id='postcolor'>

Why waste the money for bullets. While it may be "wrong" I think we should leave him as far as you can get from any towns in the desert and give him no water. Problem solved(albeit in 3 or 4 days, but solved none the less).

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Well, he wanted to go into combat... I say we drop him into downtown Baghdad wrapped in an American flag a half hour after a particularly heavy session of bombing.

He'd get more than he bargained for