NightIntruder 710 Posted April 27, 2021 35 minutes ago, krzychuzokecia said: The only PAVN air asset in the DLC is Mi-2. Yeah, indeed the Mi-4 would fit the story equally better as An-2 would or even Mig-17. But, hey, the DLC is announced to be 24GB of size in download. You could add addons to it forever, but it always ends up in your gaming rig saying to you smth like "ergh, nooo, f@&k off". There were no ambitions from devs to portray the whole conflict, or even part of it but for every side of it, as I understand their intentions. And I fully agree to it. It's just impossible to do from a commercial and technical point of view. I am not expecting 100% historical correctness nor full order of the battle. Instead, I am waiting for amazing semi-realistic gameplay and immersion, and pretty sure I won't be disappointed. And that's what truly drives this game in my humble opinion. If you like it to be an entertaining war encyclopedia - well, congrats, peace bro. I just want to get deep into people's stories from the war the DLC will hopefully bring to me in a more entertaining way that most of us get used to (aka reading books & watching films). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krzychuzokecia 717 Posted April 27, 2021 1 hour ago, NightIntruder said: But, hey, the DLC is announced to be 24GB of size in download. ...and what's that supposed to mean? 1 hour ago, NightIntruder said: I am not expecting 100% historical correctness nor full order of the battle. Well, neither do I, but with the huge effort devs went to recreate some of the art and assets, things like those poor ammo boxes just stand out as a sign of... well, I don't know, since I'm not dev, but either oversight, laziness or lack of funds/time? Reminds me of the modern Goodyear tyre texture in the Iron Front. On the other hand, inclusion of Mi-2 is just wasted effort, because (if we're talking about "realism" and "immersion") you never heard about PAVN doing their own air assaults into South Vietnam, nor you'd find it immersive. I guess it was included due to the CTI-style game-modes (like Warlords) that are built on balance between opposing factions, but that's really boring game design (it gave us Arma 3 with identical RCWS turrets on each faction vehicles). Praire Fire apparently already includes a few smaller scale TvT game modes (better fitting to the Vietnam War theme), so why forcing anachronistic assets only to tick off the box by the "Warlords" name? This issue of "wasted effort" is what (in my opinion) plagues the other CDLC - Global Mobilization. And don't get me wrong, Mondkalb is a stand up guy, but why his team is working on 1990s Denmark and German assets, while the 1980s stuff is far from being finished? I know that it's easier to make another M113 variant, but it's a cheap excuse. 1 hour ago, NightIntruder said: If you like it to be an entertaining war encyclopedia - well, congrats, peace bro. I just want to get deep into people's stories For me it's important, because the story of Vietnam War wouldn't have happened like it has, if not the supposed technical advantage the US had over Vietnamese. All the bad this war brought, and all the good it brought, was because it was a confrontation between a post-Red Scare, nuclear-powered space age United States, and the fledling independent Vietnam, which finally made it's mark on the map after centuries of captivity. There's fantastic quote from Coppola about filming "Apocalypse Now": "we had too much money, too much equipment and little by little went insane". It kind of explains US actions in Vietnam too, especially the technocratic craziness of Robert McNamara. Every war has it's heroic moments which are worthy of praise, but what makes these stories stand-out is the historical background. You mess with the history, and you end up with monstrosities like latest Battlefield games, where World War 1 and 2 are fought with full-auto scoped rifles - even though the stories it tells are interesting, the setting is changed so much, it works to the disadvantage of the whole game as a medium. Of course you could always say you're presenting an alternative history, or science fiction (see "Return of the Jedi" and George Lucas retelling of Vietnam War with cutesy teddy bears in place of Viet-Cong, and evil Empire instead of US), but it still lacks the emotions of the true story as lived through by real people. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightIntruder 710 Posted April 28, 2021 Well, what I can say at this point is that people often have high expectations (and complain) due to their deep passion for a specific topic or natural tendency to complain about literally everything. I would love to believe that it's rather the former in the case of this DLC and the whole Arma game series. If you love somebody or something you are forgiving rather than critique. That's why I'm not gonna count every single rivet on aircraft fuselage, nor complain about ammo crate texture. I just hope devs have something interesting to say about it in the story they created. I am pretty sure it's just something related to illegal weapon/ammo flows across the globe for decades of local wars. If you read some about it, I am convinced you will learn that very rarely a seller of weapons knows the final destination of a shipment (and then yugo crates in Nam makes sense). What's more, I do not require getting high quality, bug-free product on the day of the premiere as it'd be an unrealistic expectation. It hasn't been happening for the whole gaming industry for at least a decade. I've been making multiple addons in support of specific campaign projects several times, so I can understand all the implications to end-users, including the download size. What I don't understand are your annotations to MP game modes, as I never played one except for MP coop or PvP scenarios (in a few communities), so surely I need to expand my knowledge in this regard. So, peace bro, I appreciate your history knowledge but what you are lacking is apparently some background to fully understand the big picture of developing a game. They are not alone in the whole process and had plenty of time to think and re-think the whole project countless times. They also had the best historical advisors - those who've been fighting there and survived to tell us their stories. So, I would rather like to hear them than some librarian or young historian (no offense!) arguing about not necessarily important trifles. Obviously, I am not associated in any way with the Savage studio nor BI, so it's just my thoughts that you can accept or discard, whatever you like. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zukov 490 Posted April 28, 2021 16 hours ago, krzychuzokecia said: Praire Fire apparently already includes a few smaller scale TvT game modes (better fitting to the Vietnam War theme), so why forcing anachronistic assets only to tick off the box by the "Warlords" name? because is a "Game" not a "Diorama" 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beagle 684 Posted April 28, 2021 What do you experts think, will PF be able to recreate the feeling of jungle warfare like the first "Vietcong" game? The pace in that game was extremely slow due to the dense and dangerous environtment (and mine traps) 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightIntruder 710 Posted April 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Beagle said: What do you expersts think, will PF be able to recreate the feeling of jungle wear fare like the fist "Vietcong" game? The pace in that game was extremely slow due to the dense and dangerous environtment (and mine traps) I am not a gaming expert, but do you really think the two titles could be compared even remotely to each other? As for the pace, I hope to find that kind of jungle warfare in many of the SOG missions, they actually announced this sort of gameplay, if I am not mistaken. Due to worsening visibility and extremely short distances of engagements, sound discipline and hearing were crucial for survival and mission success, especially at night with no NV devices available (or limited in range and quality). I cannot even imagine they wouldn't replicate that in the title so much focused on MACV-SOG. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pognivet 151 Posted April 28, 2021 the map is 300km/sq. that is half of the size of the city of chicago. yet the map has both hanoi and saigon in it, which are 2000kms away from each other. this means everything is miniaturized. the map is also literally just an updated version of the old user-made map called "nam". 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightIntruder 710 Posted April 28, 2021 1 hour ago, pognivet said: the map is also literally just an updated version of the old user-made map called "nam". They have also a Huey chopper. Does it mean it's just an updated version of Huey from UNSUNG or Grumphy Rhino huey pack? Oh man, I love people who haven't even touched a thing but know exactly what it is and how bad is the feeling of touching it! The DLC isn't the terrain alone. It's just a canvas you paint stories on, don't you think? Any great arma's gameplay requires a few things - an appropriate terrain is only one of those things. What you expected - a 200x200km dense jungle map? There are easier and cheaper ways to burn your PC, man 😉 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ex3B 266 Posted April 29, 2021 17 hours ago, pognivet said: the map is 300km/sq. that is half of the size of the city of chicago. yet the map has both hanoi and saigon in it, which are 2000kms away from each other. this means everything is miniaturized. Yes, as I noted in the first post. I hope they manage to fit in the various areas without making the terrain feel unnatural. It is a game after all, and our computers have limited capabilities even if the devs had infinite time to create the map. Packing all that into 300km2 is a hard task, and at this point I don't know if they did the task well or not. 17 hours ago, pognivet said: the map is also literally just an updated version of the old user-made map called "nam". Link to the old map, I am interested in it - also how do you know? is there a way to see the PF map in detail yet? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krzychuzokecia 717 Posted April 29, 2021 On 4/28/2021 at 2:52 PM, NightIntruder said: people often have high expectations As I said before - I expect more from a for-profit developer selling product (DLC), than from a group of guys making free mods for fun. Especially when developer claims to have made "most authentic Vietnam war game ever created". Don't blame for situation that Savage Game Design put themselves in, voluntarily. On 4/28/2021 at 2:52 PM, NightIntruder said: If you love somebody or something you are forgiving rather than critique. That's why I'm not gonna count every single rivet on aircraft fuselage, nor complain about ammo crate texture. Why critique can't be also an effect of love? When I joined this forum, after years of playing OFP "casually", I found myself in the magnificent world of crazy "rivet counters", passionate about creating the most authenthic content possible. People with various backgrounds, often coming straight from military, or military industry even, or just enthusiasts of warfare history. The amount of knowledge shared here in years past was simply astonishing. Since when it's a thing to look down upon? On 4/28/2021 at 2:52 PM, NightIntruder said: I just hope devs have something interesting to say about it in the story they created. I am pretty sure it's just something related to illegal weapon/ammo flows across the globe for decades of local wars. I'm sorry, but you're literally grasping at straws here. The model in question is plain and simple a BI-made asset from Arma 2 (class Empty->Ammo->Local Ammunition Box), there's no "story" behind it, except it was (probably) free for SGD to use it, and fits the era better than vanilla A3 plastic containers. Still, with such care and attention devs gave to the smallest details (cigarette pack, and "Napalm" hot sauce bottle are amazing!), this one stands out. In a bad way. And no, Democratic Republic of Vietnam was not in need to scrounge ammo from shady sources, since they were openly supplied by both communist China and Warsaw Pact countries. Now getting them from DRV down south, to the Viet Cong forces was another matter, hence Viet Cong reliance (especially in early stages of war) on captured weaponry (either from US/ARVN forces, or earlier from French). On 4/28/2021 at 2:52 PM, NightIntruder said: What's more, I do not require getting high quality, bug-free product on the day of the premiere as it'd be an unrealistic expectation. It hasn't been happening for the whole gaming industry for at least a decade. ...and that's a bad thing. The quality dwindles while prices rise. Not to mention the emergence of scammy practices like micro-transactions. That's a topic for a completely different discussion, however it pains me to hear that even on these forums there are people who think it's not a big deal. Quo vadis gaming industry? On 4/28/2021 at 2:52 PM, NightIntruder said: what you are lacking is apparently some background to fully understand the big picture of developing a game. Oh, I beg to differ. I can easily differentiate between making a game, and making a mod. Modding is a far easier task, where you built upon a technology already developed by somebody else. You just create your own assets/art, and (if there's need for it) scripts - all within constrains of the game you're modding. Not to mention the fact that you don't have to be bothered with boring tasks like accounting, legalities, marketing, publishing deals etc. And all the CDLCs are just that - mods. Ones that are paid for, sold on Steam, and bring revenue to their creators, but still mods. It was especially noticeable in case of GlobMob, which first release was painfully lacking for a 20 Euro "game". But if looked through the optic of "community made modification", it made perfect sense. I guess the cold reception of GlobMob, in it's infancy, is what caused BI to postpone the release of CSLA DLC. On 4/28/2021 at 2:52 PM, NightIntruder said: They also had the best historical advisors - those who've been fighting there and survived to tell us their stories. So, I would rather like to hear them than some librarian or young historian (no offense!) arguing about not necessarily important trifles. What if I told you that all I posted comes either from old historians, or even involved parties themselves? Heck, I can give you references for every issue I brought with regards to PF promo pictures. I'm pretty sure that the idiosyncrasies I mentioned are not based on supposed advisement from the veterans, but come from devs themselves, based on their design vision. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightIntruder 710 Posted April 30, 2021 What you gonna do with your frightening findings? Are you gonna protest in front of the Savage Game Designs headquarters with banners and slogans? Do you wan to enforce a ban for yugo ammo crates within A3 series forever? Would you like to fill a pettition against using inappropriate historician consultants by devs ? 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stburr91 1002 Posted May 1, 2021 22 hours ago, NightIntruder said: What you gonna do with your frightening findings? Are you gonna protest in front of the Savage Game Designs headquarters with banners and slogans? Do you wan to enforce a ban for yugo ammo crates within A3 series forever? Would you like to fill a pettition against using inappropriate historician consultants by devs ? Well I for one intend to create a naval blockade of Cam Lao Nam as soon as the CDLC releases to block all Yugoslavian ammo creates, and M40A1 rifles with Unertl 10x scopes. Of course I will have to use the USS Freedom, and USS Liberty to do it, and they equally don't fit into the Vietnam War era. Damn, this is harder than I thought, but something has to be done. Just think of a M40A1 rifle with Unertl 10x scope inside of a Yugoslavian ammo create, inside of a Mi-2...the horror. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lilwillie 47 Posted May 4, 2021 I for one am looking forward to spending the money for the new Creator content. All the guys we have in our group enjoy all of them, keeps things fresh with new content, at least for us. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Valken 622 Posted May 5, 2021 On 4/13/2021 at 10:11 PM, EO said: Probably because this forum is sadly becoming an after-thought, while information has been shared freely on Discord since it was announced a week ago. There is an ARMA discord?! Do tell! On 4/14/2021 at 6:28 PM, Ex3B said: As long as the portrayal is not Americans = good, VC/PAVN = bad; as long as it portrays the complexity of the situation and fairly portrays the views/motivation of each side, I wouldn't have a problem with it. This 1000% from an historical accuracy aspect. Question: Is this being made by the Unsung team? If so, I would buy it out of principle alone to support them. But the new content looks fairly tasty so far. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stburr91 1002 Posted May 5, 2021 4 minutes ago, Valken said: There is an ARMA discord?! Do tell! This 1000% from an historical accuracy aspect. Question: Is this being made by the Unsung team? If so, I would buy it out of principle alone to support them. But the new content looks fairly tasty so far. Yes, some of the Unsung mod team members are the developers for the new SOG Prairie Fire CDLC. There are also a number of other well known mod makers involved in the project as well (Lord Jarhead, IceBreaker). 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightIntruder 710 Posted May 5, 2021 5 hours ago, stburr91 said: There are also a number of other well known mod makers involved in the project as well (Lord Jarhead, IceBreaker). I knew it! The layout of the terrain and the mix of micro-terrains looked familiar to me. It resembled some of the famous IceBreaker maps, it's like an artist's signature. I love some of his maps, especially those large ones with multiple airfields/dirtsrips, for almost countless options you have while creating various scenarios. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ebud 18 Posted May 5, 2021 If it had a SP campaign I would get it ASAP but if I have to convert existing missions and campaigns for this I'll wait a bit. It looks amazing though and I'll eventually get it. Hopefully someone will create some SP content for it... but I bet MP will be amazing though. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stburr91 1002 Posted May 5, 2021 4 hours ago, ebud said: If it had a SP campaign I would get it ASAP but if I have to convert existing missions and campaigns for this I'll wait a bit. It looks amazing though and I'll eventually get it. Hopefully someone will create some SP content for it... but I bet MP will be amazing though. Yes, I wish the campaign was SP, it sounds amazing. For those interested, I'll be making a SP mission with this CDLC once it releases, but it takes time to create a decent mission, so it won't be released for at least 2-3 weeks. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightIntruder 710 Posted May 6, 2021 9 hours ago, ebud said: If it had a SP campaign I would get it ASAP but if I have to convert existing missions and campaigns for this I'll wait a bit. It looks amazing though and I'll eventually get it. Hopefully someone will create some SP content for it... but I bet MP will be amazing though. Well, some SP campaign would surely boost sales, imho. I am quite surprised none was made for today's premiere. Lack of funds or time, I guess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Valken 622 Posted May 6, 2021 There is no SP? Please tell me there is at least a MP campaign like Vietcong 2003: Or like Shellshock Nam 67 but with ARMA detail and accuracy! That is all I want! Maybe a full stack MP mission from the NVA and VC side as well! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zukov 490 Posted May 6, 2021 2 hours ago, Valken said: Please tell me there is at least a MP campaign like Vietcong 2003: I think Vietcong 2 in Hue city Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
