flaps are still useful?

[dlegion 98]

hello, after TANK DLC update i noticed a change in flight model, or at least in making flaps almost useless.
any info on that ? didnt see anything about it in changelog!
thanks!

[beno_83au 1369]

Double post? 

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

4 hours ago, dlegion said:

hello, after TANK DLC update i noticed a change in flight model, or at least in making flaps almost useless.
any info on that ? didnt see anything about it in changelog!
thanks!

 

Which aircraft?

The Wipeout and the Neophron both had their flight models updated slightly to bring them in line with the rest of the jets in the game.

[dlegion 98]

sorry for the double post,  first post gived an error and didnt showed up, so i supposed was lost!
yep the wipeout take off at 200km/h (that is good, even if not realistic with that payload) with or without flaps!
there should be a difference have flaps full down or full up!

[dlegion 98]

i really suspect something wrong....probably a bug....its nosense have the same speed with flaps full down or full up!

[Beagle 684]

I tried almost all planes and take off flaps don't seem to give any more lift, and in case of full flaps, also don't slow down the plane enought for landing. It is now very hard to land on the carrier without breakign the plane and also landings on short strips often end with overshooting the runway because the plane does not want to slow down until you use brake. A plane with 5° nose up and flaps deployed shoulöd slow down by itself without airbrakes well enough. In fact the strange flight model in ArmA III is now less forgiving and more diffucult at landing than that in DCS or good old FSX.

[pooroldspike 129]

Most planes have an airbrake (or 'speedbrake') which comes in useful if we want to bleed off speed in a hurry.

For example I can't get the flaps key to work properly in the Blackfish yet, so I chop the throttle and keep my finger jammed on the airbrake key to bring the speed down fast, and I also throw in a few steep s-turns to impress my team-mates on the ground to bleed off inertia, the big heavyweight thing is full of it.

We Blackfish jockeys are an elite on the KOTH servers, I love to see my teammates little legs running out of spawn to climb aboard. One said once- "I hope the pilot knows what he's doing", and another said- "Relax, PoorOldSpike is at the controls"..:)  

[teabagginpeople 398]

1 hour ago, pooroldspike said:

Most planes have an airbrake (or 'speedbrake') which comes in useful if we want to bleed off speed in a hurry.

For example I can't get the flaps key to work properly in the Blackfish yet, .:)  

This is off the top of my head. But If I remember this correctly the flaps will only work when you use the auto vectoring. on manual it changes changes angle of your trust..

 

doesn't seem like you need em anyway. 

[dlegion 98]

lol.

[pooroldspike 129]

On ‎02‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 6:32 PM, teabagginpeople said:

This is off the top of my head. But If I remember this correctly the flaps will only work when you use the auto vectoring. on manual it changes changes angle of your trust..

doesn't seem like you need em anyway. 

 

It took me months to find the correct Blackfish VTOL keys by trial and error and by trying new key assignments because Bohemia messed it about in new game updates.

For the record- to takeoff I select auto-vector,

hit Q to get the nacelles pointing straight up,

go to 100% throttle,

as soon as the wheels leave the ground select manual vector and pull back the stick to go up like a rocket at 45 degrees. 

 

To land-  reduce speed from very fast, by selecting auto-vector,

hit Q several times to get the nacelles pointing straight up,

throttle to 0%,

hold the airbrake key.

When speed drops to less than 200 kts,  increase throttle to about 25% to ward off a sudden stall.

Start praying as you  juggle the throttle to avoid dropping like a stone.

The beast will maintain height if the throttle is around 65%, anything less than that will see it descend.

I usually touch down with about 40% throttle which gives a nice firm rate of sink, and a forward speed of walking pace, but don't touch down at less than about 30% throttle or it might explode.

 

Even so, it's still a beast to fly, I still crash and explode in multiplayer through pilot error about 1 flight in every 6 (a bit like playing russian roulette), but my excuse is that getting hit by AA shells and getting locked up by SAM's and fighter planes is kinda distracting..:)

PS- I'm still trying to get the flaps to work by trial and error..

 

 

[dlegion 98]

to cut it short, i will keep it simple so forgive the intentional over-simplification:
  flaps are used to modify wing geometry increasing wing surface and drag, with the result of slowing down aircraft AND reducing the stall speed. 
so for example, if you stall without flaps at 200 knots, with flaps you stall at 150 knots.
and game was exactly like this, but after a patch planes suddenly act the same with or without flaps, making flaps totally useless and unrealistic!

[teabagginpeople 398]

On 06/06/2018 at 8:36 AM, dlegion said:

to cut it short, i will keep it simple so forgive the intentional over-simplification:
  flaps are used to modify wing geometry increasing wing surface and drag, with the result of slowing down aircraft AND reducing the stall speed. 
so for example, if you stall without flaps at 200 knots, with flaps you stall at 150 knots.
and game was exactly like this, but after a patch planes suddenly act the same with or without flaps, making flaps totally useless and unrealistic!

Well that is no good really, I haven't had much time to test on latest dev. 

 

Spike the blackfish is ridiculously easy to explode on rough landings. Might need something tweeked.

[pooroldspike 129]

8 hours ago, teabagginpeople said:

Spike the blackfish is ridiculously easy to explode on rough landings. Might need something tweeked.

 

You just have to treat it gently like a woman when touching down..:)

To its credit the Blackfish is very hard to shoot down with standard RPG/Alamut/MAAWS/PCML-type launchers, I like to taunt the enemy by slowly orbiting the objective at low level to deliberately draw their fire and take launcher hits, it must infuriate them seeing their rockets hit me but having no effect whatsoever..:)

However it's a cumulative thing and after about 3 or 4 hits several damage panels have started turning red, so at that point I zoom off to the repair base..:) 

[dragon01 902]

The current FM has been evidently tuned without taking flaps into account. Maybe they'll fix it at some point. That said, outside of carrier landings, flaps are for most part optional when flying fighters. They're agile, have powerful speedbrakes for use in combat and very powerful engines as well. On a runway of average length, designed for airliners and cargo planes, they can take off and land without using them.

[ROGER_BALL 20]

On 6/15/2018 at 3:16 PM, dragon01 said:

The current FM has been evidently tuned without taking flaps into account. Maybe they'll fix it at some point. That said, outside of carrier landings, flaps are for most part optional when flying fighters. They're agile, have powerful speedbrakes for use in combat and very powerful engines as well. On a runway of average length, designed for airliners and cargo planes, they can take off and land without using them.

 

If I may, I'd like to add a little clarification for readers who may not have a background in aviation.

 

A no-flap landing in most high-performance aircraft (including fighters and swept wing bombers) is most often included in the EMERGENCY (or at the very least, the ABNORMAL) section of the operating manuals. For military and commercial pilots, demonstrated abilities to master "no-flap" landings is a training requirement. In the gaming forums, most opinions you'll read regarding the purpose and theory of operation of flaps are often bogus or flawed to say the least. Let's begin with the real facts. On high-performance aircraft (and even low-performance aircraft for that matter) Flaps exist TO ALLOW LANDING (and takeoff) AT SLOW SPEEDS. Why? In the case of fighters, fast approach speeds result in very high sink rates and touchdown speeds which can easily exceed the maximum touchdown speeds for aircraft tires. On takeoff, flaps provide a slower lift-off speed (less runway required). In aviation, there is a saying: "Nothing is more useless than altitude above you and runway behind you."

 

Except in extenuating circumstances (like flight control problems for example), no-flap landings are considered an "abnormal" procedure at the very least. In some aircraft, no-flap landings require specific emergency procedures to deal with the reduction in safety margins. Leading-edge slats are sometimes added to aircraft designs to further reduce the approach/touchdown speeds.  Anyone who has ever landed a high-performance, swept-wing aircraft without operating flaps and/or slats in icing or slippery runway conditions knows how risky this can be. No-flap landings are not optional in most aircraft, regardless of the runway length. All sorts of factors counter to aviation safety principles are impacted.  Just to clear the air,  flaps and (in some cases, slats) change the aerodynamic shape of the wing, making it possible to get very slow without stalling so touchdown speeds are as slow as possible. FLAPS ARE NOT AND SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR SPEED BRAKES.  The misconception is created, in part, because folks (airline passengers) associate the fact that the aircraft gets slower on approaches and they mistakenly assume that flaps they observe are being employed/extended to "slow" the aircraft. While it is true that, aerodynamically, anytime lift is increased there is an associated increase in drag. There are no exceptions. However, it IS possible to increase drag without adding lift. We all know that "SPEED BRAKES" are one way to do this. Pure drag. When pilots begin the approach, and as the airspeed bleeds off through the use of these high-drag devices designed for that purpose (as well as flying techniques)  the aircraft reaches a speed where flaps can be safely (structurally) extended. Above this maximum "flaps-extended speed", flaps CANNOT be deployed. Prior to reaching this speed, the slowing of the aircraft is aided by speed brakes and/or spoilers. As the aircraft reaches a slow enough speed where flaps (sometimes referred to as "barn doors") can begin to be incrementally extended. As the speed continues to drop, more of the "barn door" can be put into the slipstream and so the flaps are incrementally lowered on a speed-schedule (maximum for each flap setting).  The aircraft, when fully configured for landing is flying now at a speed far below the flaps-up stalling speed. That is, we have changed the aerodynamic shape of the wing - in effect we "reconstructed" a wing that will fly at slow speeds. This allows for the slowest possible touchdown speed and maximum safety margins for many more reasons than just runway length (the reason often and incorrectly suggested as a criteria as to whether flaps are needed or not). 

 

Having flown high-performance combat aircraft ashore (10,000 feet runways), flight decks as a Navy Tailhooker, and as well as trans-Atlantic wide-body aircraft for the airlines, I hope to help youngsters separate fact from fictions.  Here's one to think about.   FACT: Fighters sometimes land at speeds SLOWER than jumbos. The converse is also true. 

 

As for the game itself, the flight characteristics one experiences are far from reality in most every way. The game does do an excellent job of providing a general sense of reality. So, in my opinion, there is enough aerodynamic modeling so as not to diminish the enjoyment of the game. And, furthermore, I am totally impressed with the designers ability to create this level of immersion. I agree with those here that lament over the absence or removal of the modeling for control surfaces' aerodynamic impacts on speeds and performance.  Mastering the flight characteristics and operational functionality of the game's models is very challenging. When folks who won't expend the time and effort to learn basic flying principles end up voicing displeasure and complaining about not being able to just strap on the jet and go cruising, this can sometimes lead to a 'dumbing down' of the challenges - leaving those who did earn the achievements (expending the time & effort) with a simplified model.  I feel your pain.

 

Even having flown for over 40 thrilling years in aviation around the world, I still absolutely love ARMA 3 and find the scenarios and battles very rewarding. There is something for everyone and I hear kids laughing and carrying on some servers and, on my server, I hear serious minded veterans who mentally fight as if the arena was almost real - letting their minds completely immerse in the moment.  

 

Finally, take my advice on this: Flying a gaming model should never form one's basis of conclusions as to what an actual aircraft can or cannot do or how any particular type of aircraft system performs in the real world.  Focus on the mission and enjoy the game for what it is and most of all, use your imagination to keep it real.    Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

[beno_83au 1369]

@ROGER_BALL Probably the best necro post I've ever seen. That was a pretty decent read.

[NightIntruder 710]

21 minutes ago, beno_83au said:

@ROGER_BALL Probably the best necro post I've ever seen. That was a pretty decent read.

Agree. It was a pleasure to read this one. Thank you @ROGER_BALL for sharing your knowledge!

[pierremgi 4888]

 

21 hours ago, ROGER_BALL said:

Finally, take my advice on this: Flying a gaming model should never form one's basis of conclusions as to what an actual aircraft can or cannot do or how any particular type of aircraft system performs in the real world.  Focus on the mission and enjoy the game for what it is and most of all, use your imagination to keep it real.    Cheers.

 

 

Agree. There are plenty of fun playing and flying Arma without reaching an professional flight simulator (usually focused on one type of aircraft!). I never crashed in real life, I can't count them on any game...

 

 

22 hours ago, ROGER_BALL said:

Having flown high-performance combat aircraft ashore (10,000 feet runways), flight decks as a Navy Tailhooker, and as well as trans-Atlantic wide-body aircraft for the airlines, I hope to help youngsters separate fact from fictions.  Here's one to think about.   FACT: Fighters sometimes land at speeds SLOWER than jumbos. The converse is also true.

 

Even having flown for over 40 thrilling years in aviation around the world, I still absolutely love ARMA 3 and find the scenarios and battles very rewarding. There is something for everyone and I hear kids laughing and carrying on some servers and, on my server, I hear serious minded veterans who mentally fight as if the arena was almost real - letting their minds completely immerse in the moment. 

 

Nice! Welcome bro! I spent also my career as pilot on board French Navy "pocket" CVs. (no civilian job).

So, I had a look at how aircraft are designed in Arma.

The (most of) parameters are set in a config reference:

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_3:_CfgVehicles_Plane_class_config_reference

For Vanilla (no mod) aircraft, you can extract landing AOA, landing speed, stall speed.... Most of the time, that works also on modded aircraft... But it's hard to do something with that and the aerodynamic calculation are not described (I didn't find that, if any). Not saying I have no clue about atmospheric model f(alt) f(temp)...

 

Anyway, I could say that some models are not too bad set for "realistic" flight, like landing AOA and landing speed close to 1.3 X stall speed (should be 1.1 for a Navy tailhook), dynamic stall, climb rate/power/altitude... Flaps are more or less (less) useful... Some mods are not really scripted for realism but they stay immersive!. I already wrote about UNSUNG in which all jets are "gliders". This mod stays tremendous for a Navy environment. There are not so much hooks in Arma!

 

I did a little HUD (that can help if you are fond of IFA3 aircraft for example).

See more here, (HUD video part). The HUD is included in a module.

NOTE: I had to dig into getAllSoundControllers  grabbing G factor in real time, or hook position... There is no commands or even function for that. Hope that help for further scripts.

 

And, overall, have fun!

 

[ROGER_BALL 20]

On 11/3/2021 at 5:19 AM, NightIntruder said:

Agree. It was a pleasure to read this one. Thank you @ROGER_BALL for sharing your knowledge!

 

My pleasure entirely. Thank you.

[ROGER_BALL 20]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:45 PM, pierremgi said:

 

 

I spent also my career as pilot on board French Navy "pocket" CVs. (no civilian job).

So, I had a look at how aircraft are designed in Arma.

 

 

Thanks for the supplemental info for the viewers. And thanks for your kind words as well. Cheers.

 

[ROGER_BALL 20]

On 11/3/2021 at 4:54 AM, beno_83au said:

@ROGER_BALL Probably the best necro post I've ever seen. That was a pretty decent read.

 

Coming from an 'old salt' (2001), thank you very much. Cheers

[Gunter Severloh 4063]

That was great information @ROGER_BALL, much appreciate your insights and knowledge something to keep in mind when i fly.

I fly myself on occasion in the game but not modern planes, mainly WW2 planes and more specifically the Ju87 Stuka, as it has its own

flight aspects to it for a slower plane, the combat tactics employed with its used be it divebombing, or using the bk37mm gunpods there is a level of

skill needed to be proficient at such tactics.

    I am still working on my own flying and get plenty of practice through my own mission, and in coop on the weekends, i also fly in the game IL-2 if you have heard of that,

that game is a bit more simulated to a more realistic level then Arma 3 is at least for the WW2 planes, but the planes are getting there thanks to the modders.

   

My brother btw i ask him questions sometimes about flying as hes been flying since he was 13, and is about 36 now, he fly's a 737 all across the USA currently.

       As for the lowering of the flaps discussion for what i fly i normally dont lower the flaps when i'm coming in for a landing, until im almost on the runway itself, sometimes i come into

fast and when i deploy the flaps i end up getting lift when im trying to land, so i find it to be something you have to time with your speed.

 

   For the Ju87 plane the based landing speed for that plane in real life was about 125km/h,  ingame its about 135 thats just the mod, all that can be changed

of course but i try to aim for that so distance from the runway, speed, ect,. make a difference, i learned is once you have everything set you got to just let the plane do its thing

and just maintain it, a pilot with some hours under his belt can tell when to adjust but most times the nature of the situation will let you know how your doing.

 

It takes a bit of practice to get it right, if a player is "serious" enough or is into what their doing rather and not just flying the plane for the sake of the guns it has and the fun of just flying

some of the players i've come across when it comes to flying are in a rush to just get into the air, dont pay attention when they land if they do, its almost a careless act as

if it probably be better if they just spawned in the air then actually take the time to land and follow an actual landing, and taxi procedure, but thats just me.

    Theres is a level for every player at which they give their attention and for those that do they are awarded with a proficiency in a skill.