jets Jets - Jets DLC VTOL "Flaps" needs rename

[Hvymtal 1251]

EDIT: Was named JETS DLC Breaks VTOLs. Upon further investigation (Thanks, Greenfist ) I discovered that my problem resides in the fact that when TV is on, the "flaps" now controls the prop/nozzle position. I'm glad we're still in dev branch because this should be renamed. We aren't in A2 anymore and launching as it is in its current state would be unacceptable.

My recommendation, change the name of the function in TV mode from "Flaps Down/Up" to "Thrust Down/Forward". Nice and unambiguous, makes it real easy to understand for new pilots seeing as jets will bring in a bunch of fresh butter-bars to crash all our stuff. Honestly, the new system makes flaps irrelevant anyhow, so I question whether we should just add new control functions for Thrust Down/Forwards and get rid of the "mode," keeping flaps for those of us who still want and like them. Playing with it more, the VTOLS could use some airbrakes but otherwise just needs Virtual Arsenal practice. A lot of it

 

For those of you who got got like me: FLAPS IN VTOL NOW CONTROLS NOZZLE/PROP ANGLE, Flaps DOWN moves the thrust more VERTICALLY, Flaps UP moves the thrust more HORIZONTALLY, if you think of how flaps work, this makes perfect sense, though you wouldn't notice it on the ground or even in the air until someone points it out to you. Tip: Never go below 34% throttle unless you need to bleed altitude FAST, and then be prepared to go full power and pull up hard.

 

 

 

 

 

FOLLOWING IS ORIGINAL POST. IT IS IRRELEVANT BUT HAS BEEN LEFT IN FOR DOCUMANTATION AND ONLINE ARCHIVING. I HAVE NO SHAME IN BEING A DUMBASS, SH*T HAPPENS, LIVE AND LEARN

It appears that with the new throttle mechanics and flight characteristics introduced in JETS, VTOLS do not seem to function as intended anymore. Both the V-44 and Y-32 seem to roll forwards at least 30m before actually lifting off, and getting the thing to transition back to hovering from level flight is basically impossible since the thrusters/props do not seem to actually rotate downward again, even if you stall them in a zoom climb, essentially turning them into glorified planes. As far as I can tell, the only way to get the things to hover from level flight is to turn on invincibility (such as in VA), crash the things into the ground, use the new brakes function to being them to a stop, and then, only then will the Y-32 nozzles or V-44 props redirect their thrust. Not to mention them being difficult to land in level flight already, now whenever you do land you can't bring it down easy either way and it breaks the landing gear.

Oh yeah, and even when you are in hover mode, the things don't actually hover no matter what you do, they'll either lurch forwards from black magic thrust or you reverse your direction from trying to get the thing to stop moving by pitching up and crash. With release in may, I really hope that the devs look really hard at the VTOLs and find a way to get them to work as intended

[xxgetbuck123 945]

1 hour ago, Hvymtal said:

It appears that with the new throttle mechanics and flight characteristics introduced in JETS, VTOLS do not seem to function as intended anymore. Both the V-44 and Y-32 seem to roll forwards at least 30m before actually lifting off, and getting the thing to transition back to hovering from level flight is basically impossible since the thrusters/props do not seem to actually rotate downward again, even if you stall them in a zoom climb, essentially turning them into glorified planes. As far as I can tell, the only way to get the things to hover from level flight is to turn on invincibility (such as in VA), crash the things into the ground, use the new brakes function to being them to a stop, and then, only then will the Y-32 nozzles or V-44 props redirect their thrust. Not to mention them being difficult to land in level flight already, now whenever you do land you can't bring it down easy either way and it breaks the landing gear.

Oh yeah, and even when you are in hover mode, the things don't actually hover no matter what you do, they'll either lurch forwards from black magic thrust or you reverse your direction from trying to get the thing to stop moving by pitching up and crash. With release in may, I really hope that the devs look really hard at the VTOLs and find a way to get them to work as intended

 

Fair point. However I've have 0 problems with the what you're talking about, VTOLs hover better than ever and fly better than ever. The increment throttle works a charm for me, I have no idea why you'd be getting the results you would though. 

[Greenfist 1863]

First of all, you need to lower the flaps all the way down to hover. But still, at least for me, it takes ages to bring the plane to halt. Steadily lowering thrust while constantly pulling up, but even then it's very easy to slip to a forward glide again. 

In the main branch I can land the Xi'an on a dime only a little slower than any other light helicopter but on the dev branch I need hundreds of meters of space even to get down alive.

I don't mind if it's more difficult and needs practice in the future, but right now it seems way too hard. Or am I simply doing it totally wrong? What's the correct take off and landing procedure?

[Hvymtal 1251]

I did put flaps fully down, Not for me. Dev branch I guess :P

The fact that it takes forever to decrease speed is an issue considering that putting it into TV in the past meant slowing down like hitting a brick wall. Unrealistic, maybe but it still takes way too long and when I try to activate TV and then do flaps I seem to get locked out, the scroll menu displaying flaps up and flaps down at full retract which means I have to set my flaps in advance which screws up my approach etc.

 

And then there's the phantom thrust preventing me from taking off unless I'm moving forwards (Update, only in Xian, Blackfish you can still do the classic blackfish takeoff holding full stick back, though thanks to some weird interaction between TV and the FM/new throttle, you get a pretty big altitude dip before leveling off.)

 

Also, when doing the Xian in hover, it will yaw if you're not pwrfectly level. It wasn't so bad before, but with my new experience, it is a PAIN

 

As for you getbuck, stick, controller, or keyboard/mouse? I'm Keyboard/mouse (Edited 1st). What's your technique; flap setting, stick, throttle? do you get any unwanted forward momentum? Was this older build or Mar 24? What's landing like for you?

I NEED TO KNOW I'M NOT CRAZY!!! :P

 

EDIT: I was crazy :( it seems my issue was the fact that flaps up/down now controls prop/nozzle position. This really should be renamed as it is misleading. Deceleration is still a BITCH though, and takeoffs still suck. Need to play with more for more feedback

Will edit title, but this really shouldn't have happened. The joys of dev branch.. I will bitch nice and loud if it isn't changed before Jets lands, though, such a small problem having such a disproportionally large effect

[xxgetbuck123 945]

1 hour ago, Hvymtal said:

As for you getbuck, stick, controller, or keyboard/mouse? I'm Keyboard/mouse (Edited 1st). What's your technique; flap setting, stick, throttle? do you get any unwanted forward momentum? Was this older build or Mar 24? What's landing like for you?

I NEED TO KNOW I'M NOT CRAZY!!! :P

 

Did a bit of further testing and I must say it does go forward a fair bit even in stable mode, then again you can counter it with nose up pitch. I usually land VTOLs like standard aircraft so I cant really comment on it atm. Keyboard and mouse as well.

 

[Hvymtal 1251]

Well what's the point of VTOL if you can't land vertically as well. That's actually more common; the Harrier can only land vertically, not take off, at any reasonable load. I used to use the V-44 for mass troop runs on Attack and Secure coop servers, I'm not sure if I'll be able to do anything like that now, its pretty unforgiving if you don't do it exactly right. Takes a lot of practice I guess; Ospreys and Harriers are known to be real mofos on landing

[AveryTheKitty 2626]

First off, bind a key to Break (Analogue) under Plane Movement in controls for an airbrake.

 

Second off, BIS we need a new key to control flaps. I'm thinking CTRL+Mouse wheel up/down.

[Hvymtal 1251]

I did bind a key to brake*, the VTOLS have no airbrake.

[john85oc 28]

BIS Should Trust make Controllable like before Version 1,68 in 1.66 was it Controllable. after update to 1.68 not and i find its it not really good to Controll without the possibility to control it

[oukej 2911]

The state on dev-branch is WIP (as usually :))

On 18. 3. 2017 at 8:28 PM, oukej said:

The change to manual throttle has changed how vectoring works. It behaves now the same as it used to behave only when using analog throttle - FLAPS UP/DOWN control the actual vectoring (in VTOL 3 remember that vectoring near ground is limited to certain angles).
Anyway, we'll need to revisit the VTOLs FM too.

Atm it uses a WIP / placeholder lolcatization

[oukej 2911]

On 26. 3. 2017 at 6:13 AM, Nightmare515 said:

Second off, BIS we need a new key to control flaps. I'm thinking CTRL+Mouse wheel up/down.

CTRL+MWheel is already taken by zeroing. Otherwise MWheel with a modifier doesn't sound like a bad idea!

[AveryTheKitty 2626]

1 hour ago, oukej said:

CTRL+MWheel is already taken by zeroing. Otherwise MWheel with a modifier doesn't sound like a bad idea!

Is zeroing used at all in any of the fixed-wings, though?

[Hvymtal 1251]

Xian gunner? That's a stretch though XD

[dragon01 902]

Not by the pilot, zeroing controls do nothing when actually controlling the aircraft.