Tanks - Fire-control system

[S3blapin 15]

3 hours ago, Beagle said:

There is a BIG difference beetween the proving ground and what tanks can do after 60km on the road, heating upp to 50° inside and after years of usage mannes by conscripts.

The factory test numbers are never achieved by average crews in tanks than are in use for a decade. Spare parts where hard to come by even back then and we usually had to cannibalize for parts.

The reality of an tank batallion is not factory test. We even spend most of our dayds allingning the gun system since it likes to go whacky all the time.

 

Dont trust factory sheets, thats just advertisment.

 

The figures I stated are rules of thumb that give the highest kill probabilities. You dont go to the edge of the envelop to make a hit and run attack as an armoured recon platoon. You rely on steath and want to make sure none will be left to report you when you have to make it back to your side of the frontline. Trick shots at long ranges are not the way to go. You are already safe when you can engabe the opponet outside of his effective fire range Ther eis no need to extend it further. Btw, the terrain we trained for was rolling hills with dense forrest...long range shots are not really a thing there.

 

The training grounds: https://www.google.de/maps/@51.188437,9.7568603,710m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=de

and here: https://www.google.de/maps/@50.886858,9.4169399,5723m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=de

 

tactics for desert warfare do not work there.

 

Oh I know that there's a big difference between manufacturer data and army dat a.  The thing is this test was performed by the army. It was one of the requirements for the army.

 

I understand your PoV, and I agree with many things you said (like the fact you can only know what a tank is really capable of in combat situation, with logistic involved etc)

 

But here i'm just showing that extremely long range engagement on moving target is possible in correct condition, so shooting a target at 2000m isn't really a problem here, even for late 80's tank.

 

The main advantage of the Leclerc is not its ability to engage target at stupid long range but to engage many of them while he is moving at high speed on bad terrain (thanks to the autoloader)

 

I've seen with my own eyes some really impressive stuff done by the Leclerc (at least impressive for my grun eyes), like shooting out two designated target we just called right after jumping out of cover in less time it took me to change my mag...

[lex__1 422]

Are there any plans to change the way artillery is fired?
Interested in the option of shooting without a ballistic calculator.
There is no automatic correction of the barrel when shooting in the visible area of the optical sight.
There is no manual correction of the barrel, when firing beyond the visible scope of the optical sight.
On the optical sight of artillery there are the following quantities:
SOLUTION
- RNG
- TRV
ELEV CTRL
- ELV
- REL
Some of them are determined automatically, but must have manual control. Some have manual control but there is no automatic adjustment.

[Vasily.B 529]

Sorry i wasnt here for long time and have problems with FCS - after lasing target it shows "max lead" with red letters in left down corrner averytime i want to lase a target - what does it mean? its shows on mission start, and in the middle of it, i cant actually lase any target (distance is measured, but it reset after seconds)

[oukej 2911]

On 9/13/2017 at 6:21 PM, Vasily.B said:

Sorry i wasnt here for long time and have problems with FCS - after lasing target it shows "max lead" with red letters in left down corrner averytime i want to lase a target - what does it mean? its shows on mission start, and in the middle of it, i cant actually lase any target (distance is measured, but it reset after seconds)

Is that in Slammer? The MAX LEAD indicated that the target is going faster than what the FCS can adjust for (for Slammer that would be a target @ > 100km/h IIRC)
What puzzles me is that it shows at all times and that the distance gets reset. What keys do you have the "Lase Range" action bound to?

[Vasily.B 529]

3 hours ago, oukej said:

Is that in Slammer? The MAX LEAD indicated that the target is going faster than what the FCS can adjust for (for Slammer that would be a target @ > 100km/h IIRC)
What puzzles me is that it shows at all times and that the distance gets reset. What keys do you have the "Lase Range" action bound to?

I had it binded to [\], but now changed to [T]. Problem is, i was standing still and was trying to lase target 300-500M from me (stationary targets). And yes, it was Slammer.

[oukej 2911]

Can you please record a video of it?

[Vasily.B 529]

On 17.09.2017 at 10:40 PM, oukej said:

Can you please record a video of it?

You propably will kill me, but today i cannot reproduce it. I didnt changed my mods ( i played it on custom scenarios with vanilla equipment) and today it lase OK, when i was reporting it, everytime it wasnt lase at all. I dont know, if it was loaded wrong or what.

[martin_lee 33]

On 9/17/2017 at 9:56 PM, oukej said:

The MAX LEAD indicated that the target is going faster than what the FCS can adjust for (for Slammer that would be a target @ > 100km/h IIRC)

 

Hm, that got me thinking, say if there really is a target going that fast, is there any ways to engage it, other than guessig the lead manually, both in real life and in game?

[a_killer_wombat 120]

7 hours ago, martin_lee said:

 

Hm, that got me thinking, say if there really is a target going that fast, is there any ways to engage it, other than guessig the lead manually, both in real life and in game?

 

Not sure about IRL but in-game you can manually adjust zero'd range (PageUp or PageDown by default) which will also overwrite/remove previous FCS targeting so you are able to manually lead your shot using guesswork or fire & adjust (just like you would before FCS was implemented).

 

Edit: Sorry, didn't read your post properly and somehow missed "other than guessing the lead manually". 

[dragon01 902]

You guess the lead or engage with guided missiles (which, as far as tank-mounted ones go, are point and shoot, just keep the crosshairs on target) if you have them.

[lex__1 422]

The ballistic calculator does not correct the trajectory of the bullet, at a distance to the target of 4-5 kilometers, for the player the arrow of the tank. AI perfectly perform shooting at these distances.

 

[a_killer_wombat 120]

4 hours ago, lex__1 said:

The ballistic calculator does not correct the trajectory of the bullet, at a distance to the target of 4-5 kilometers, for the player the arrow of the tank. AI perfectly perform shooting at these distances.

 

 

If you look at the top right corner of the screen, you can see that the FCS can only zero to a maximum of 3000 metres. I'm not sure why the devs decided to limit the max range zero to that distance but you are certainly right that it is completely unfair if AI can still shoot accurately over 3000m on the first shot while players have to struggle with estimating hold over at ranges over 3000m.

 

At the very least, the AI tanker's accuracy should be greatly hindered for ranges over whatever the max range zero is for players.

[xxgetbuck123 945]

5 hours ago, lex__1 said:

The ballistic calculator does not correct the trajectory of the bullet, at a distance to the target of 4-5 kilometers, for the player the arrow of the tank. AI perfectly perform shooting at these distances.

 

 

 

I believe it was discussed a fair bit during the Dev Branch stages of the tank FCS that most tank combat doesn't really exceed 3k range, thus you don't really need the BC to calculate that range for you. Though it is dodgy having the AI be able to engage at those massive ranges without any consequence. 

 

Off topic but also on topic - How did you get the AI the target exactly what you're looking at without going through mountains of action menu like I have to :( ? 

[lex__1 422]

6 hours ago, a_killer_wombat said:

If you look at the top right corner of the screen, you can see that the FCS can only zero to a maximum of 3000 metres. I'm not sure why the devs decided to limit the max range zero to that distance but you are certainly right that it is completely unfair if AI can still shoot accurately over 3000m on the first shot while players have to struggle with estimating hold over at ranges over 3000m.

Thanks, I did not pay attention to FCS limitation.
What is the idea of limiting the distance of the FCS?
On the servers:
- The range of visibility is usually 4 km.
- Launchers Titan - distance of defeat 4km.
- The main MOD have machines, with rocket launchers AT.
It is necessary to increase the FCS to 5 km.
Modern tanks are capable of making a shot at a distance of more than 5 km.

Quote

Limits of range measurement by the laser rangefinder are from 200 to 7990 meters (but the ballistic solution is calculated only in the range from 200 to 3990 +/- 10 meters for the M1 and M1A1 tanks and from 200 to 4990 +/- 10 meters for the M1A2 tanks, This range is indicated by flashing symbols).

5 hours ago, xxgetbuck123 said:

Off topic but also on topic - How did you get the AI the target exactly what you're looking at without going through mountains of action menu like I have to :( ? 

The right mouse button - to report the target, in the visual range.

[Beagle 684]

16 hours ago, lex__1 said:

Thanks, I did not pay attention to FCS limitation.
What is the idea of limiting the distance of the FCS?
On the servers:
- The range of visibility is usually 4 km.
- Launchers Titan - distance of defeat 4km.
- The main MOD have machines, with rocket launchers AT.
It is necessary to increase the FCS to 5 km.
Modern tanks are capable of making a shot at a distance of more than 5 km.

The right mouse button - to report the target, in the visual range.

At some point you must make a limit. Only a handfull of Playes is able to play at such view distance without turning general detail down. The default Ultra setting gives us an object rendering distance of 2300 meters and 3800 meters of terrain rendering. Tanoa is particularly taxing. Also, the maximum EFFECTIVE Range of the most current 120mm gun/ammunition combos for KE ammunition is at 3500-4000 meters, but only in combination with elongated gun barrels. The still current 120mm (like the ones in ArmA 3 )have only 2600-3200 meter effective range. Add to this that we only talk about range. One of the problems with SABOT and fin stabilized HE from smooth barrels is a reduced accuracy compared to rifled barrels. This feature allows the Challenger II is unsurpassed precission at range...but the lifetime of rifled barrels is low and the rifling reduces muzzle velocity and effectve range. At such rantges SABOT KE Ammunition often can't defeat more modern armour anymore reliably. Again, as I wrote months ago, the Maximum stated range of a weapon does not equal it's effective range at which it can really hit and defeat a hard target. at 4000m a 120mm Smoothbore cannon will hit into a box of 4x4meters. This gives a lot of room for a plain miss.

[lex__1 422]

1 hour ago, Beagle said:

At some point you must make a limit. Only a handfull of Playes is able to play at such view distance without turning general detail down. The default Ultra setting gives us an object rendering distance of 2300 meters and 3800 meters of terrain rendering. Tanoa is particularly taxing. Also, the maximum EFFECTIVE Range of the most current 120mm gun/ammunition combos for KE ammunition is at 3500-4000 meters, but only in combination with elongated gun barrels. The still current 120mm (like the ones in ArmA 3 )have only 2600-3200 meter effective range. Add to this that we only talk about range. One of the problems with SABOT and fin stabilized HE from smooth barrels is a reduced accuracy compared to rifled barrels. This feature allows the Challenger II is unsurpassed precission at range...but the lifetime of rifled barrels is low and the rifling reduces muzzle velocity and effectve range. At such rantges SABOT KE Ammunition often can't defeat more modern armour anymore reliably. Again, as I wrote months ago, the Maximum stated range of a weapon does not equal it's effective range at which it can really hit and defeat a hard target. at 4000m a 120mm Smoothbore cannon will hit into a box of 4x4meters. This gives a lot of room for a plain miss.

- Not all servers, set the datum limit of the visible range to 2000-2500. This should not be an argument in limiting the FCS range.
- I agree with you, about the effective range of the weaponry of the tank. In this part of the game parameters, there is a range limitation in the FCS.
- The game lacks the effectiveness of the hitting range of the tank https://feedback.bistudio.com/T83551.
As seen in my video, AI hit the target at a distance of 5km.

 

Given the history of the development of tanks, more recently, for tanks there was a limit of effective radius of damage of 1500-2000 meters. Now it is already at the level of 3000-4000 meters.
There are types of ATGMs, for a shot from a tank barrel, an effective range of target range at a distance of up to 5000 meters.

[oukej 2911]

We usually tend to scale ranges down to fit the scaling of the terrains, for performance reasons, gameplay purposes and relative balance. Instead of realistic absolute values we try to focus more on what I'd call "authentic ratios". But it's not a single universal ratio - often the bigger the munition's range is IRL the more we need to scale it down in the game. Look at radar homing missiles ;) The goal is an engagement with somewhat accurate combat roles. Everything else is subject to scaling.

[lex__1 422]

In this picture, the result of one shot from the tank at a distance of 3000m. The bullet passed through two houses and struck in three tanks. I tried to shoot at a distance of 4000. The same result. On the shot from the tank, there is no strong influence of distance, there is not enough impact of collisions with textures, on the ability to penetrate into multiple objects.

https://imgur.com/hPslqKK

[a_killer_wombat 120]

4 hours ago, oukej said:

We usually tend to scale ranges down to fit the scaling of the terrains, for performance reasons, gameplay purposes and relative balance. Instead of realistic absolute values we try to focus more on what I'd call "authentic ratios". But it's not a single universal ratio - often the bigger the munition's range is IRL the more we need to scale it down in the game. Look at radar homing missiles ;) The goal is an engagement with somewhat accurate combat roles. Everything else is subject to scaling.

 

This is sound reasoning that I agree with. However, as pointed out in the original post by lex_1, AI tankers should suffer from the same accuracy limitation that player tankers experience. At the moment, with engagements above 3000m, AI have an unfair advantage since they are unaffected by the FCS max range limitation.

[reyhard 2082]

58 minutes ago, a_killer_wombat said:

 

This is sound reasoning that I agree with. However, as pointed out in the original post by lex_1, AI tankers should suffer from the same accuracy limitation that player tankers experience. At the moment, with engagements above 3000m, AI have an unfair advantage since they are unaffected by the FCS max range limitation.

As far as I know AI is limited by ranges indicated in fire modes and they should engage up to 3km with their main cannon.  It can be overridden though with direct "Fire" command issued by player commander. I agree 3km's is somehow low number but changing it would need some investigation how it would affect gameplay.

 

Spoiler

        class player: Mode_SemiAuto
        {
            [...]
        };
        class close: player
        {
            showToPlayer = false;
            aiRateOfFire = 6;
            aiRateOfFireDistance = 50;
            minRange=0;minRangeProbab=0.35;
            midRange=500;midRangeProbab=0.78;
            maxRange=1000;maxRangeProbab=0.04;
        };
        class short: close
        {
            aiRateOfFire = 10;
            aiRateOfFireDistance = 300;
            minRange=500;minRangeProbab=0.05;
            midRange=1000;midRangeProbab=0.58;
            maxRange=1500;maxRangeProbab=0.04;
        };
        class medium: short
        {
            aiRateOfFire = 15;
            aiRateOfFireDistance = 600; 
            minRange=1000;minRangeProbab=0.05;
            midRange=1500;midRangeProbab=0.58; 
            maxRange=2000;maxRangeProbab=0.04;
        };
        class far: medium
        {
            aiRateOfFire = 20;
            aiRateOfFireDistance = 1000; 
            minRange=1500;minRangeProbab=0.05;
            midRange=2500;midRangeProbab=0.4;
            maxRange=3000;maxRangeProbab=0.01;
        };

 

 

[Vasily.B 529]

Well let me add 2 cents
Usually SABOT rounds range is limited to 3600M, so increasing accuracy of FCS to this range for SABOT rounds (player), and decreasing working range for those rounds for AI (also to 3600M) could be good and realistic compromise.
As for Guided missiles and HEAT (that is not present yet - id dont know if BIS is planing to add them) effective range (range that FCS can adjust cannon) can be increased to 4KM in case of HEAT and to 5KM in case of ATGM (if we take in accound most modern type of missiles at this time (game action takes place in 2035)

[dragon01 902]

Actually, FCS doesn't need to adjust range for ATGMs. That's one of their advantages. They are SACLOS, so they go where the reticle is pointed. They don't need a firing solution like shells do, allowing them to be fired beyond rangefinder's maximum range.

 

I think that it would be best if AI was limited in its engagement range to the end of FCS lasing range, except with ATGMs, which should have their own range.

[Vasily.B 529]

Sorry for misunderstanding - i was meaning limit(for AI)/increase(for player) max range for ATGM to 5KM.

[Damian90 697]

APFSDS rounds are not limited to 3000+m. It's all depending on FCS capabilities, a modern FCS can calculate range up to 5000+m for APFSDS rounds that are of the modern design, which means large sabot made from composites to reduce it's parasitic mass, and small fins to reduce drag during rods flight.

 

Of course there FCS that are unable to calculate range up to 5000+m due to variety reasons, be it's optics zoom limitations and APFSDS designs, for example T-90M/SM that is quiet primitive in this regard compared to modern tanks like Merkava Mk4 or M1A2SEPv1/v2/v/3/v4 that are capable to both calculate range for all conventional (non guided) ammo types up to 5000+m and fire these ammo types effectively up to this range.

[Vasily.B 529]

43 minutes ago, Damian90 said:

APFSDS rounds are not limited to 3000+m. It's all depending on FCS capabilities, a modern FCS can calculate range up to 5000+m for APFSDS rounds that are of the modern design, which means large sabot made from composites to reduce it's parasitic mass, and small fins to reduce drag during rods flight.

 

Of course there FCS that are unable to calculate range up to 5000+m due to variety reasons, be it's optics zoom limitations and APFSDS designs, for example T-90M/SM that is quiet primitive in this regard compared to modern tanks like Merkava Mk4 or M1A2SEPv1/v2/v/3/v4 that are capable to both calculate range for all conventional (non guided) ammo types up to 5000+m and fire these ammo types effectively up to this range.

It depend how you look at it. Target at 5KM can change direction - HEAT or SABOT cant nor FCS cant predict target sudden move, while in case of ATGM (range 5KM on T-90SM) you can change direction of missile.

But in topic of AI, Arma and player - what range could be correct for terrains/game engine/optimal draw distance (for lower PC's)? 
Off course in terms of AI - they should have same range limitation as player.