Tanks - Fire-control system

[dragon01 902]

RHS did something like that already. BTW, 5km range for FCS is rather unrealistic. IRL, Armata can't even manage 4km, it uses ATGMs to hit beyond around 3km. Other tanks are more or less similar. 

[scavenjer 112]

44 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

RHS did something like that already. BTW, 5km range for FCS is rather unrealistic. IRL, Armata can't even manage 4km, it uses ATGMs to hit beyond around 3km. Other tanks are more or less similar. 

We don't know the specifics of the Armata's FCS, but I've heard 4KM is roughly the limit on the FCS of the leopard 2(A6) and the Leclerc for example uses an upgraded version that currently holds the world record for most accurate sustained/moving fire at long ranges.

So it isn't at all a stretch to think the tanks in-game have FCS that can achieve these performance levels.

[dragon01 902]

I still think 5km is a stretch. 4km would be more like it. Leclerc is specifically optimized for long range cannon fire, any other design probably couldn't hit much at that distance, anyway. Generally, APFSDS rounds will lose most of their speed at that point and HEAT rounds fly too slowly to get that far to begin with. Armata uses ATGMs and so does Merkava, which is a better way of increasing your effective range than pushing the gun to the limits. 

[Beagle 684]

1 hour ago, scavenjer said:

We don't know the specifics of the Armata's FCS, but I've heard 4KM is roughly the limit on the FCS of the leopard 2(A6) and the Leclerc for example uses an upgraded version that currently holds the world record for most accurate sustained/moving fire at long ranges.

So it isn't at all a stretch to think the tanks in-game have FCS that can achieve these performance levels.

it should be noted that the hit probability at 4km on the move is rated at 25%. Also, at that range APDFS is 100% ineffective against frontal armour, both because of impact angle and loss of kinetic energy.

[Damian90 696]

Modern M1's like M1A1SA/M1A1FEP or M1A2SEPv1/M1A2SEPv2 have FCS and laser range finder that allows to fire conventional ammuniton at targets as far as 5000m, Merkava Mk4 as far as my sources say also can fire conventional ammuniton at 5000m, not matters APFSDS, HEAT or HE.

 

It all depends on optics, FCS and laser range finder.

[scavenjer 112]

6 minutes ago, Damian90 said:

Modern M1's like M1A1SA/M1A1FEP or M1A2SEPv1/M1A2SEPv2 have FCS and laser range finder that allows to fire conventional ammuniton at targets as far as 5000m, Merkava Mk4 as far as my sources say also can fire conventional ammuniton at 5000m, not matters APFSDS, HEAT or HE.

 

It all depends on optics, FCS and laser range finder.

Yeah, the range isn't at all an issue, it's more the actual fire control and compensation for movement/temperate all that stuff.

Hitting a target reliably at 5KM even stationary isn't easy.

[dragon01 902]

15 minutes ago, Damian90 said:

Merkava Mk4 as far as my sources say also can fire conventional ammuniton at 5000m, not matters APFSDS, HEAT or HE.

I have no doubt it can fire rounds that far, as this is pretty much only limited by how far up you can angle the gun. The question is, can it get reliable range at this distance (on some tanks you have to manually enter range to shoot this far, dunno if it applies to Merkava). Hitting targets is yet another thing, especially since you need to use the lower-velocity HEAT rounds, as APFSDS would simply bonk and bounce off anything that's not a softskin at this distance.

[Damian90 696]

In a proper FCS sim i could fire and hit reliably hit targets at 5000m from M1A2SEPv2. So yes its possible and i know US tankers that were doing that.

[scavenjer 112]

APFSDS does not lose penetration that quickly, just saying.

Hit "probability" at different ranges without FCS and no environmental effects. (DM13 first gen 120mm ammo)

HEAT (DM12A1)  effective range with Leopard 2A6 FCS is 3000m. Ofcourse you could use indirect fire on bunkers or houses etc and still get reliable hits at 5KM.

[Beagle 684]

17 hours ago, scavenjer said:

APFSDS does not lose penetration that quickly, just saying.

 

Hit "probability" at different ranges without FCS and no environmental effects. (DM13 first gen 120mm ammo)

 

HEAT (DM12A1)  effective range with Leopard 2A6 FCS is 3000m. Ofcourse you could use indirect fire on bunkers or houses etc and still get reliable hits at 5KM.

we were talking about >4km regarding lack of penetration.

[Beagle 684]

50 minutes ago, Damian90 said:

In a proper FCS sim i could fire and hit reliably hit targets at 5000m from M1A2SEPv2. So yes its possible and i know US tankers that were doing that.

that sounds more like a legend, considering the short lenght of the Cannon.  We can't consider trick shots the norm and the 3000m max "Effective" range is already good.

Field doctrine for the old Leopard II A4 did not recommend to open fire beyond 2000m. You want a good hit probability for an first surprise attack to avoid receiving any fire in exchange.

The practical hit probability is including FCS alignment error and gunner aimign errors (two of the main problems in the real world) and weather factors.

 

[scavenjer 112]

Shooting the strongest part on the turret, (T-72 has roughly 400mm RHAe effective on the front turret but it could range up to 440m

This is with DM13 APFSDS which as a 0° 100m penetration of 470mm RHAe, so at 2K it only loses ~50mm

[Beagle 684]

4 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

Shooting the strongest part on the turret, (T-72 has roughly 400mm RHAe effective on the front turret but it could range up to 440m

This is with DM13 APFSDS which as a 0° 100m penetration of 470mm RHAe, so at 2K it only loses ~50mm

yes right, now guess why this chats are for 2000m not 4000 or 5000

[darkChozo 133]

Is the effective range vs. heavy armor really relevant? Even if you can't penetrate an enemy tank at that range, you still might want the FCS to work for attacking lighter/outdated armor or things like fortifications.

 

Also worth noting that Arma does simulate loss of velocity and its effects on penetration, though I have no idea if that's at all accurate to real life.

[Beagle 684]

9 minutes ago, darkChozo said:

Is the effective range vs. heavy armor really relevant? Even if you can't penetrate an enemy tank at that range, you still might want the FCS to work for attacking lighter/outdated armor or things like fortifications.

you can as well input range manually RL. The further away the less precise is the FCS solution. The problem RL is that IR absorbing paint and Camo materials dotn make it all that easy to get a solution at all. Sometimes all you get is ERROR.

 

I think I know a bit of that practical stuff from +20 years ago, but im not a real expert, since my service time was short. But I'm on this foto in person: 

[scavenjer 112]

5 minutes ago, Beagle said:

yes right, now guess why this chats are for 2000m not 4000 or 5000

Because they consider 420mm penetration at 2KM not enough to penetrate the T-72s strongest part of the turret front?

Did you miss the line where I pointed out the DM13 APFSDS (first gen 120mm APFSDS) only lost about 50mm penetration at 2km?

 

The improved shells DM63A1 (being replaced by DM73A1 currently in german service) has 910mm RHAe penetration and will most likely lose velocity even less ....

[Beagle 684]

13 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

Because they consider 420mm penetration at 2KM not enough to penetrate the T-72s strongest part of the turret front?

Did you miss the line where I pointed out the DM13 APFSDS (first gen 120mm APFSDS) only lost about 50mm penetration at 2km?

 

The improved shells DM63A1 (being replaced by DM73A1 currently in german service) has 910mm RHAe penetration and will most likely lose velocity even less ....

I pointed out earlier that Penetration is oen factor, PK the second why maximum achived trick shots are not used as refference for doctrines and fire opening ranges.

Edita is not in the game any more, we neither habe L55 guns in the game and expanding ranges to extremes will not bring any benefit. Im fine with long Range FCS function as logn as the hit probability is low. UIt was stated long time ago that for playability there mist be some limits and I always considered 3000 as quite good...it was 1900m before.

[scavenjer 112]

Just now, Beagle said:

I pointed out earlier that Penetration is oen factor, PK the second why maximum achived trick shots are not used as refference for doctrines and fire opening ranges.

Edita is not in the game any more, we neither habe L55 guns in the game and expanding ranges to extremes will not bring any benefit. Im fine with long Range FCS function as logn as the hit probability is low.

We do have the L55 in game... MBT-52 Kuma...

[Damian90 696]

37 minutes ago, Beagle said:

that sounds more like a legend, considering the short lenght of the Cannon.  We can't consider trick shots the norm and the 3000m max "Effective" range is already good.

Field doctrine for the old Leopard II A4 did not recommend to open fire beyond 2000m. You want a good hit probability for an first surprise attack to avoid receiving any fire in exchange.

The practical hit probability is including FCS alignment error and gunner aimign errors (two of the main problems in the real world) and weather factors.

 

 

Its not a legend, i even seen in a real thing in FCS menu max ranges for specific weapon systems.

 

And lenght of gun have nothing to do here. M256 have barrel long enough and fire rounds at pressure high enough that it can perfectly hit targets at 5000m or even beyond.

 

Its only FCS locks capability to fire more than 5000m to conserve ammo, as 5000m is max effective range.

 

Oh and Leopard 2 have really shity sights with pathetic magnification of only fixed 12x for day and 3x and 12x for thermal sight + WBG-X is obsolete 1970's tech.

 

 

Modern M1's have 3x and 10x day sight magnification but thermal sight have 3x, 6x, 13x, 25x and 50x magnification and uses modern 2nd generation FLIR which is XXI century technology with high resolution matrix. Merkava Mk4 is similiar in this regard. Not to mention next generation laser range finders and digital FCS, not analog you had in your Leopard 2A4.

 

 

Heck even upgraded Leopard 2 tanks receive better sights, FCS and laser range finders to extend their firing range even with Rh120/L44 guns.

[Beagle 684]

15 minutes ago, Damian90 said:

 

Its not a legend, i even seen in a real thing in FCS menu max ranges for specific weapon systems.

 

And lenght of gun have nothing to do here. M256 have barrel long enough and fire rounds at pressure high enough that it can perfectly hit targets at 5000m or even beyond.

 

Its only FCS locks capability to fire more than 5000m to conserve ammo, as 5000m is max effective range.

O.K. noted, in Europe is is practically impossible to shoot that far.... safety regulations. But we never tried, nit even in shilo. My experience is range capped by army regulations.

But can we have soem confirmations and reports about that effective 5000m shot on the move on a moving target? Or are we talkign about "artillery shots" with tank guns?.... those can go out to 8000, and trajectory is not a factor there. But in fact my main concern is the game mechanics...I really want to keep rendering at 3000m max for Objects....particular in MP and AI heavy missions like Warfare. Extendign every range further and further does not help the game...there must be a point somewhere.

[Damian90 696]

5 minutes ago, Beagle said:

O.K. noted, in Europe is is practically impossible to shoot that far.... safety regulations. But we never tried, nit even in shilo. My experience is range capped by army regulations.

But can we have soem confirmations and reports about that effective 5000m shot on the move on a moving target? Or are we talkign about "artillery shots" with tank guns?.... those can go out to 8000, and trajectory is not a factor there. But in fact my main concern is the game mechanics...I really want to keep rendering at 3000m max for Objects....particular in MP and AI heavy missions like Warfare.

 

5000m shots are line of sight, its not artillery shots, with 50x zoom you can see target quiet good at such range, especially with 2nd or 3rd generation FLIR thermal sight, its better than day sight.

 

I know that USMC used this in Afghanistan to fire at long ranges, not at enemy tanks, but its more than possible.

 

I fired at such ranges in SteelBeasts, stationary and on the move, but latter demands some practice.

[scavenjer 112]

Regardless, max range in altis realistically is something like 4KM anyway, 5KM I personally haven't even seen yet.

And average range..... well let's just say 90% of shots are well within the current 3KM max

[Damian90 696]

I played with 5000m shots, just to test our M1's in RHS as well as T tanks GLATGMs. ;)

[scavenjer 112]

Just now, Damian90 said:

I played with 5000m shots, just to test our M1's in RHS as well as T tanks GLATGMs. ;)

Well yeah, but how realistic is that in your average game-play? Outside of purposefully going for such long range shots ofcourse.

[Beagle 684]

Missile ranges are also well below the real life ranges for that reason. Everything is a bit "condensed" to keep the game playable on a larger scale. The Devs stated more then once that this is a reason. It's even a larger factor for air launched weapons in ArmA III.