Server monetization program

[dscha 147]

Hmm...

I am leaving this one here:

http://www.pcgamer.com/valve-modders-absolutely-need-to-be-paid/

[Heinrich Kramer 172]

Their experiment ended in a virtual dumpsterfire after only 4 days, i'm curious how they try to avoid this situation a second time

 

[djotacon 190]

On 9/2/2017 at 1:45 PM, Alwarren said:

 

I completely agree. When I say "Keep money out of it", I include server monetization. None of it should be about the damn money.

 

I think that some people in this forum believes  that they have a moral superiority - based in arrogance - to say to everyone what is good to everyone.

 

Nobody force to anyone to sell nothing, the debate is about the right to sell his creation like a modder and gain professional respect with that.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Quote

Newell continued to acknowledge that Valve's first attempt at monetizing modding was painful for the company. "The Skyrim situation was a mess. It was not the right place to launch that specific thing and we did some sort of ham-handed, stupid things in terms of how we rolled it out,"

 

This is exactly what I was talking about, and I'm incredibly glad that GabeN understands this. No community can be expected to deal with "Here's a permission to release your mods for money" on their own. There are so much support that needs to be provided for the authors and the consumers. If Valve is having issues with this, as the premier company that started making money instead of games, what chance do you think BI has?

 

When Valve says that mod makers are getting paid in their games, it means that they almost work as external partners with Valve, and Valve themselves controls the process of vetting, release, sales, QA, support and post-release guarantee that the thing you paid for isn't going away.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

1 hour ago, djotacon said:

I think that some people in this forum believes  that they have a moral superiority - based in arrogance - to say to everyone what is good to everyone.

 

Nobody force to anyone to sell nothing, the debate is about the right to sell his creation like a modder and gain professional respect with that.

 

You're missing incredibly large amounts of finesse and details that are necessary to sell something to someone. That's why everyone accepts donations and Patreon support instead of directly charging for addons/videos/whatever. And that's why selling access to servers is causing such an issue here.

[Alwarren 2767]

1 hour ago, djotacon said:

 

I think that some people in this forum believes  that they have a moral superiority - based in arrogance - to say to everyone what is good to everyone.

 

Nobody force to anyone to sell nothing, the debate is about the right to sell his creation like a modder and gain professional respect with that.

 

Moral superiority? Based on arrogance? What a heap of crap.

I didn't say anyone should be forced into anything, I say keep money out of modding (and servers) because it is detrimental to cooperation  and the spirit of a community. Again, I am growing tired of chasing after idiot server admins that monetize any of the addons I am involved with, or trying to get people to respect my copyright and NOT mix up my stuff in their modpacks. That hasn't got anything to do with "moral superiority", or arrogance. I just would prefer to spent my time otherwise, so my opinion is keep the money out of it. You are free to disagree, but don't tell me that my PoV is arrogance.

[Redphoenix 1540]

9 hours ago, Mr.Skellington said:

Their experiment ended in a virtual dumpsterfire after only 4 days, i'm curious how they try to avoid this situation a second time

 

That's just because they did it wrong.

[djotacon 190]

10 hours ago, Sniperwolf572 said:

 

You're missing incredibly large amounts of finesse and details that are necessary to sell something to someone. That's why everyone accepts donations and Patreon support instead of directly charging for addons/videos/whatever. And that's why selling access to servers is causing such an issue here.

 

I think you are spoken with a child or something similar, avoid think that I'm a fool.

 

If you prefer beg before a work is your problem not mine.

[djotacon 190]

10 hours ago, Alwarren said:

 

Moral superiority? Based on arrogance? What a heap of crap.

I didn't say anyone should be forced into anything, I say keep money out of modding (and servers) because it is detrimental to cooperation  and the spirit of a community. Again, I am growing tired of chasing after idiot server admins that monetize any of the addons I am involved with, or trying to get people to respect my copyright and NOT mix up my stuff in their modpacks. That hasn't got anything to do with "moral superiority", or arrogance. I just would prefer to spent my time otherwise, so my opinion is keep the money out of it. You are free to disagree, but don't tell me that my PoV is arrogance.

 

This is a clear proof of your arrogance: thinking about the cooperation based in money "damage" something.

 

Your personal opinion is not mine or everyone's opinion.

 

And what's the point to tell us your problem about the monetize your created content? all the software companies has the same problem and dont see no one using this like a ghost in the closet.

 

If someone wants to sell something created by him and he has a valid license there's no problem, this nonsense is only related with BIS license that all, if you buy a license in a MS VSTUDIO - or professional software - there no troubles to sell software created using this tool.

 

To me this debate is turning in a tool to persuade people about the "horrible","evil","horror", about selling mods.

[R0adki11 3949]

9 minutes ago, djotacon said:

 

To me this debate is turning in a tool to persuade people about the "horrible","evil","horror", about selling mods.

Well in my personal opinion selling content leads down a path which could potential fracture and destroy this community. I have always thought this community to be one of the best in sharing knowledge and helping each other. If money is introduced i can see that we could become a closed community, where some individuals will be in it for themselves.

 

I have been apart of the community since the days of Operation Flashpoint, i began my BIS gaming journey with the OFP Demo and have supported and bought every BIS game to date. This concept of money didn't trouble this community then and it shouldn't do now. Which is why i choose to vote No on all three options. 

 

Although i am a small time addon maker, i have made a faction release for my Nogovan Armed Forces across OFP, Arma2 and Arma3. My addons may not be the best, but i enjoy making them, even if no one uses them. At the end of the day alot of us make addons as we enjoy it, its a bonus that they are released in to the wider community. If this path of server monetization is taken that it certainly will change the face of this community and not necessarily for the better. 

 

[Delta Hawk 1829]

I don't think monetizing anything would be a good idea...and I'm a money grubbing addon maker.  And it obviously causes a lot of friction in the community * cough cough *

 

I think a better option would be BIS creating a donation system through Steam for servers and mods with superficial rewards for donating, like server perks or badges.  It also would be wise if a server required you to have a particular mod any donations to that server a portion of it would be given to the mod maker if they're set up to receive donations.  BIS could even create a donation matching system for servers and addon makers up to a certain point.

 

I mean, really, monetizing sounds like a horrible idea.  Horrible.  Absolutely horrible.  Like more horrible than the 2016 presidential elections.  This is probably how that one guy felt when someone brought up the idea of filling the Hindenburg with hydrogen or saying the Titanic was unsinkable before she left harbor or "lets all take shots of Bacardi 151!"  Horrible idea.

 

Just my two cents.

[djotacon 190]

5 hours ago, Delta Hawk said:

This is probably how that one guy felt when someone brought up the idea of filling the Hindenburg with hydrogen or saying the Titanic was unsinkable before she left harbor or "lets all take shots of Bacardi 151!"  Horrible idea.

 

Coff coff ... U.S. Helium Control Act of 1927

 

Fear and ignorance, ingnorance and fear welcome to the world of the paranoia.

[Alwarren 2767]

6 hours ago, djotacon said:

This is a clear proof of your arrogance: thinking about the cooperation based in money "damage" something.

 

As opposed to your "holier-than-thou" stance? Right.

 

 

6 hours ago, djotacon said:

Your personal opinion is not mine or everyone's opinion.

 

No shit, Sherlock.I think that is why it is called "personal opinion".

 

6 hours ago, djotacon said:

And what's the point to tell us your problem about the monetize your created content? all the software companies has the same problem and dont see no one using this like a ghost in the closet.

 

The point of a discussion is to discuss your point of view with others. This thread was an opinion poll, and I have given mine. The fact that you think my opinion is arrogance only shows your own true colors, namely, that you think other people's opinions are invalid.

 

6 hours ago, djotacon said:

If someone wants to sell something created by him and he has a valid license there's no problem, this nonsense is only related with BIS license that all, if you buy a license in a MS VSTUDIO - or professional software - there no troubles to sell software created using this tool.

 

I have no idea what your point is. If you are using BIS tools, you are subject to BIS' license which prohibits making a profit. And you must use BIS tools to binarize, so you are subject to the rules set out by BIS for these tools. Which means, selling the stuff is illegal. Of course I can sell a model that I created in a 3D application, I just cannot sell or monetize the result of what comes out of BIS binarize.

 

Now, my argument was that IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, money has no place in this whole affair, and that IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, nobody, neither addon makers nor server admins, should be allowed to monetize. I tried to give an example where such monetization could lead to. If you need more examples, look at those servers that make their own terrain for Arma 3 and not share it with anyone else. I tried to argue the point that as soon as money is involved (as has been show before in the Make Arma not War contest), cooperation between modders suffers, to the damage of all, modders and players alike.

 

Your argument was merely to insult people of opposing PoV by calling them "arrogant" and claiming they claim "moral superiority". I don't. I just told my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. You know, what people usually do in a discussion or debate. Speaking of debate...

 

 

6 hours ago, djotacon said:

To me this debate is turning in a tool to persuade people about the "horrible","evil","horror", about selling mods.

 

I beg your pardon? Did you ever check what the word "debate" means?

a formal discussion on a particular matter in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward and which usually ends with a vote.

 

Of course you try to persuade people about your point of view. That is what a debate is actually supposed to be. That is a basic concept. The keyword, however, is "opposing arguments". I made my point. You just said this was "arrogance" and "moral superiority". I invite you to come up with real arguments.

[Delta Hawk 1829]

 

 

 

4 hours ago, djotacon said:

 

Coff coff ... U.S. Helium Control Act of 1927

 

Fear and ignorance, ingnorance and fear welcome to the world of the paranoia.

 

What does that have to do with me using someone thinking filling the Hindenburg with hydrogen is a bad idea to illustrate my point in regards to monetizing servers and mods?

 

Here, I'll answer it for you...

 

Spoiler

 

There are bad sides to selling mods and BIS has to consider them, regardless of how we may feel.  Ultimately they're going to do what's in their best interests.  The only game I know of that allows selling of mods is Microsoft flight simulator, which probably did more harm than it did good.  If anybody else knows games that allows modders to sell their work please let me know.

[Fresh- 6]

Some years ago I went to work for a company involved in sim racing, and the bosses there had an idea to monetize the space. From their perspective, it was all about 'growth' and bottom lines, a dream to somehow cash in on this 'growing industry' we call 'gaming'.

 

In order to do so, they purchased one of the most popular modding sites at the time and began their 'project' around it. Initially, the idea was to allow users to compete against one another for real cash, and for a while that's what they did. 

 

But very long story short, their 'expirement' was i believe a costly failure, and in the process, it basically damaged that modding community beyond repair, at least the websites and forums they'd been using. The community was split on these 'plans' for introducing monetization. Perhaps the community lives on in newer titles, i don't really know, i walked away a few years ago saddened by the entire chapter.

 

In the process however, i did have many dealings with many modders, and most of them were fair and genuine, doing it primarily out of passion, and usually ready to help the community in any way possible. Money was not their primary motivator and in fact, they were mostly opposed to any monetization of their hobby, especially if others were to gain financially from their passion. Because of who i worked for, some of them were hostile, but i always understood and respected their 'position', despite being at odds because of my own employment.

 

I also discovered that the possibility of making 'money' often attracts the most unscrupulous characters, those who will lie and cheat to make a buck. I also encountered people (usually younger kids) who'd take credit for stuff they didn't actually make, either for name recognition or perhaps out of misguided passion. After all, ripping models from other titles does require some skill.

 

So while i think it's a free world where people have choices, i think introducing monetization in the BIS environment is an overall bad idea, at least from my direct experience. Money really does seem to ruin things.

 

I think donations is a far better approach, and it should be encouraged within all of these communities. If you like someone's work, take time to send them a few bucks to thank them. And for those modders who want to make a living from it, check out the BIS job boards, they often hire , as do many other gaming companies, or, sell your mod to BIS and see if they'll include it in a future DLC. 

 

 

[djotacon 190]

Quote

What does that have to do with me using someone thinking filling the Hindenburg with hydrogen is a bad idea to illustrate my point in regards to monetizing servers and mods?

 

I believe that you think that here are a bunch of idiots.

 

What proves illustrate you point with inaccurate - maybe - false facts? that you are try to illustrate your "ideas" using something.

In the same sentece you are using "Nazi Germans", "Donal Trump and monetized mods...

For the next time I suggest all of you can use another topics: "N.W.O", "llluminatis","Snake man".. etc..

 

And what is this?

 

Quote

There are bad sides to selling mods and BIS has to consider them,

 

What bad sides? the modders can earn some of the money?, bis can earn money too?, the modders can be pro's?

 

I think this apocaliptical rethoric is very funny but no real.

[djotacon 190]

10 hours ago, Fresh- said:

But very long story short, their 'expirement' was i believe a costly failure, and in the process, it basically damaged that modding community beyond repair, at least the websites and forums they'd been using. The community was split on these 'plans' for introducing monetization. Perhaps the community lives on in newer titles, i don't really know, i walked away a few years ago saddened by the entire chapter.

 

 

Sorry but I dont believe nothing of your history, sound like "horror" history for kids.

 

I see in this debate newbies "parachuting" in this thread speaking about the "armaggedon"...

 

Ok lets check your history.

 

In the sims racing theres very few game that have a "huge" mod scene in the last years. None of this mod can be "monetized" mainly because they are using pro-cars - or copyrighted content- in his mods but even with that there's only two big scenes with this amount of mods:

 

RFACTOR scene: Completely active today

Race07 scene: With mods this year but abandoned because the main sim now isn't updated and the company was shut down.

 

None of two scene was monetized ever.

 

Can you give me more "facts" about your "history" to prove this "incredible history"?

 

 

[lawndartleo 109]

If you monetize your work and BIS patches the base game in such a way that your code is rendered useless are you willing to update your code free of charge?  How many good mods haven't we seen erased by the march of time and updates?  The fact that those authors have chosen not to update their work is disappointing to those who enjoyed their work but it was understandable that they were not willing to maintain.  The minute you take a dollar from a consumer, the expectations change immensely.  Where you once had to deal with bitchy and ungrateful users you will now have to deal with bitchy and demanding customers who will be geometrically more upset (and now, rightfully so) because you charged them money for something that doesn't work.  And what about cross compatibility with the work of other authors?  Will this mod work with that mod, will this script work with that script?  What are you going to do to ensure that there is no conflict?  What are you going to do to resolve it?  Will you grind out regular patches or blame the other author and dig in your heels?

 

My expectations of a mod or a script now is, well, nothing. My expectations when I hand you money will be that it works as advertised and does so for as long as BIS continues to maintain ArmA III.

 

I hope BIS looks at how such a program could affect the long term health of their business.  After reading this thread and writing this response, I can almost understand now why so many games that used to support modding have now entirely removed and blocked such activity.  I don't want the same fate to befall the ArmA franchise, so please, tread carefully. The decisions made now will dictate the future success or failure of the game.

[bad benson 1733]

@djotacon is there any reason you are being so overly hostile?

 

i don't really see how what people describe could be seen as paranoia. you are just choosing to ignore those points eventhough they are totally real.

 

examples of cons for addon or overall monetization:

 

- holding back of information that everyone can benefit from,

- abuse of the system by using other people's work (good luck paying for lawyers with the "income" generated from an addon)

- not all content being available to everyone reducing the possibilities immensely, right now arma can be anything you want it to be. not anymore if you'll have to start paying for each part

- mission makers...will anyone even use mods in their missions anymore, if they know people will have to possibly pay for a certain addon to even play their mission?

 

and that's just what i came up with on the spot.

 

lots of things to consider. it's not as easy as "but it works everywhere else in the business world". the point is this IS NOT A BUSINESS currently. and the question is, if it is a good idea turning an organic pool of cooperating creative people into a market place like any other out there. you are asking to turn something that grew over a decade into something else, fair enough, but don't act like there are no consquences. makes you sound biased.

 

sure money isn't evil per say. the question is, does it have to be a factor in EVERYTHING? isn't it good to have areas to be productive without expecting pay? words like hobby and passion come to mind.

 

you can choose to not find all of this significant but you can't deny it.

 

it would be great if you could just try to discuss your points, if you have any, like everyone else is trying to do. i don't know if you have noticed but you are turning this thread into a one man show which makes it really unpleasant to read. i'd really prefer to not have to read all this to get to the few points that people brought up that i hadn't thought of. like this one by Alwarren

 

Quote

If you need more examples, look at those servers that make their own terrain for Arma 3 and not share it with anyone else.

 

this always bugged me.

 

don't bother going off on me please. i won't respond either way. i mean this in the most friendly and productive way possible. just take a breath and calm down please. i'm not trying to shut you down or anything. i'd just love this to unfold without turning into another two sided faction war thread for no reason.

[djotacon 190]

Quote

If you monetize your work and BIS patches the base game in such a way that your code is rendered useless are you willing to update your code free of charge?

 

And if the modder dies he is willing to udpate from the afterworld?

 

When you buy a software there's no eternal updates. End of this point.

 

Quote

I can almost understand now why so many games that used to support modding have now entirely removed and blocked such activity.  I don't want the same fate to befall the ArmA franchise, so please, tread carefully. The decisions made now will dictate the future success or failure of the game.

 

What games please? I think this is another example of "fear to nothing"...

 

 

[djotacon 190]

Quote

@djotacon is there any reason you are being so overly hostile?

 

What?...

 

A entire thread claiming for the arise of "anti-christ" in the form of paying mods and me saying this is a complete madness?

 

And the problems based on copyrighting is exactly the same that confronts the entire software industry.

 

But there's a simple solution, the payed mods is an option, if you dont have sell a mod dont do it is very simple.

 

Where's is the problem with the previous sentence?

 

I think here we have a good and calm debate instead of that we have a entire thread based on "suspicius" claims, fear of "payed mods worls", and all kind of exaggerations.

 

[ProfTournesol 956]

3 minutes ago, djotacon said:

 

 

I think here we have a good and calm debate instead of that we have a entire thread based on "suspicius" claims, fear of "payed mods worls", and all kind of exaggerations.

 

 

To have a calm and good debate, you should drop your passive agressive way of posting.

[djotacon 190]

9 minutes ago, ProfTournesol said:

 

To have a calm and good debate, you should drop your passive agressive way of posting.

 

Aggresive, hostile, ninja style.. etc.

 

Where's the agresion, I'm insulting to anyone to claim proof of his claims?

 

Now instead debate in the payed mod sphere we are debating my ficticiuos hostility... good, good very good.

 

" passive agressive"...  and what is that? a psycological approach... let say samething to you, this "theory" is only valid in a phyisical relationship in a debate there's only a point of view.

[Richie 330]

I think the best solution could be product placement or sponsored, modders can be paid, community still get free access.

Then let the sponsors look after abuse, they can protect their own interest and everyone lives happily.

 

Obviously there would be terms, companies or sponsors would want a return, better quality mods would be needed to encourage downloads, thats a win win for everyone then as shitty stuff wouldn't yield rewards.

[PuFu 4600]

14 hours ago, djotacon said:

 

Aggresive, hostile, ninja style.. etc.

 

Where's the agresion, I'm insulting to anyone to claim proof of his claims?

 

Now instead debate in the payed mod sphere we are debating my ficticiuos hostility... good, good very good.

 

" passive agressive"...  and what is that? a psycological approach... let say samething to you, this "theory" is only valid in a phyisical relationship in a debate there's only a point of view.

You have said your piece, great...move on, several people have warned you to mind your passive aggressive tone if you want a discussion. if you don't, go make yourself a blog and close all comments.

 

This thread is about the monetization of both servers and community made content (be it mission, mod, script or whatever else) btw