Hostage situation in moscow ended

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Oct. 28 2002,03:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Didn't a group of hostages OD on the knockout gas and end up dead?

Or am I behind the times.<span id='postcolor'>

Read the last two pages.

[bn880 5]

Now that we know how many the gas killed, I don't think the operation was a total success... partial success. The use of gas should have been better if possible. (different gas most likely)

The operation would be a failure if explosives went off.

That's what I think, but I can not really judge... maybe only a gas of that serious and quick effect could have prevented the women from setting off charges.

Please remember, doctors say they died of complications from the gas; in addition to other factors. After three days of being held like that, many people were probably ready to turn in without a gas. It's not like one of us were likely to die from it, well fed and not sleep deprived. Their livers are probably not working well after those three days... so.....

terrible

[bn880 5]

Some sources are saying the reason for so many hostages dying from the gas is that the hostages were being removed from the theater (ironic that the theater of operations was a theater) for about 1 hour. Also the rescuers did not inject every hostage with anecdote in time.

Make your judgement, it's always nice to review a teams actions for hours or months when they had to act immediately.

[Tovarish 0]

The situation ended badly. It could easily have ended worse, in fact I had expected it to. I feel that the Alpha team did the best they could against such odds and with so little time to spare (once executions had started and some hostages tried to run/fight back). I also see why it took so long to remove everyone, considering all the mines in the theatre. However, I find it truly reprehensible and disgusting that the authorities witheld information about the gas from doctors. This shows the old Soviet attitude of valuing military secrets higher than civilian lives. For this I believe the authorities have some blood on their hands, and I truly hope that whoever ordered this information to be kept secret is punished...though I doubt it will happen. With these new facts surfacing, I can't call this a success. It may be a partial success, it remains to be seen how the remaining survivors will recover from the effects of the gas.

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 27 2002,19:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also the rescuers did not inject every hostage with anecdote in time.    <span id='postcolor'>

I think you meant to say antidote!

[FSPilot 0]

*chortle*

This is something they should of planned on. Shame.

I'd hate to be the person who dropped the ball though. Gotta feel sorry for them, and the victims, and the victims families.

[Badgerboy 0]

With all but 2 of the 117 hostages having been killed by the gas released into the building, this outcome had a very high price.

And with the Russian authorities refusing to give doctors details of the gas used, it would seem innocent blood is on somebodies hands.

Plus the gas used wasn't CS or equivelent. It looks like they released some form of nonpersistant nerve gas into the building. With gasses like that designed for the open battlefield, don't you think administering them in a closed building was a little rash?

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Oct. 28 2002,00:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">With all but 2 of the 117 hostages having been killed by the Plus the gas used wasn't CS or equivelent. It looks like they released some form of nonpersistant nerve gas into the building. With gasses like that designed for the open battlefield, don't you think administering them in a closed building was a little rash?<span id='postcolor'>

Compared to what? The other alternative would be to storm the building and have the people blow it up. Yes a gas like that can be toxic and it did kill some of the hostages, but the alternative would be all the hostages dead from the bombs. They knew going in that some people would die from complications, weak immune systems, etc, but really it's all they could do to save the most lives.

COLINMAN

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Compared to what? The other alternative would be to storm the building and have the people blow it up. Yes a gas like that can be toxic and it did kill some of the hostages, but the alternative would be all the hostages dead from the bombs. They knew going in that some people would die from complications, weak immune systems, etc, but really it's all they could do to save the most lives<span id='postcolor'>

Not when the authorities refuse to tell the emergency services what they have to deal with. If the hospitals had been informed, they could have had specialists standing by outside the building to treat the hostages. The gas was a good idea, but there was an almighty fuckup administering it.

The doctors don't know what they are trying to treat, plus the family members of the hostages, don't even know if their loved ones are alive or not, as the hostages are not allowed to communicate outside of the hospital.

If the veil of secrecy had not existed from the beginning, I imagine that a majority of the deaths could have been avoided.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They knew going in that some people would die from complications, weak immune systems, etc<span id='postcolor'>

In which case, why didn't they inform the hospitals about what they were going to have to deal with? Damage limitation seems to be non-existant, and a proportion of people who could have been saved have died. There are people in intensive care, precariously close to death, and the Russian Government still won't tell the doctors what they are dealing with!

Well, do you agree with this?

[dayglow 2]

After reading the through the thread here I can't believe the speculation that people are making here. The operation was a success. 7 out every 8 hostages was saved vs all dead.

Negotiate? This was an act of terrorism. If you negotiate all you are enviting is more acts because it shows that it can be successful. Most western nations have a no nogotiate policy. They will try to end a situation peacefully, but the end result will be that the terrorists will fail, either through arrest or action.

Also this action was not the final plan. When a CT team arrives on scene they will have an Imediate Action plan ready to go within 15min and it will continueally evolve until a final plan can be drawn up. All indications are that this takedown was an IA plan as there was the exchange of gunfire. All you people with the 20/20 hindsight saying that only 2 hostages were shot, exactly how do the authorities know this. They have people fleeing, shots fired, more shots within the building, boom you go. You don't wait to see if they are actually shooting people.

As for using the gas. Yes it was dangerous and yes people died because of it, but the situation called for it. There is no other way to clear the building in time. If they had done a normal dynamic entry within 5 sec all of the suicide bombers would have detinated, killing a lot more than died now. You can't compare this to any other situation in the past. The embassy? It was one of the first operaitons and people didn't really know the capabilities of CT teams at the time, also it was a conventional takedown. No explosives, no suicide bombers. The SAS was able to overwelm the oposition, but it still took 10min to clear the building. Here you have people that would blow everything up within the 1st minute.

I remember reading about the failed Delta operation within Iran. In there plans they had briefed the president that if they did the operation that hostages would die. I forget the actual estimate, but it was at least 20. And you know, if it had gone through it would have been considered a success.

All through this discussion I haven't seen anyone suggest an alternative that would have changed the outcome. You talk of using technology, tell me, what technology is there that would have given them the ability of securing the building within 1 minute to prevent the bombers from going off? Rail guns with x-ray vision that could see throught he walls so they could pick off all the terrorists? A non leathal completely safe sleeping gas that would garentee just putting people to sleep without hurting them? There is no other alternative. You all sound like the people here in town that complained when a cop shot a guy dead because he was standing behind him holding a knife to the hostages throat. People wanted to know why the cop didn't shoot the knife out of his hand. You guys watch too much TV and holywood.

COLINMAN

[Badgerboy 0]

You didn't asnwer my question. I said that the use of gas was a good idea, espeically with the poor tactical environment, but the administration of the gas was a cockup.

Why the hell would they need to with hold details of the gas to doctors for gods sake? Thanks to incompetence and paranoia high up, innocents have died. This could have been hailed as one of the best hostage rescue efforts around, but because of the fuckups in the aftermath of the assault people have died needlessly.

No situation calls for the use of gas, and then no plans to deal with the effects afterwards. This was a fine tactical plan, ruined by a lack of longterm planning.

How have neglected to comment on the denial of information to doctors etc, plus the poor implemention of extracting the hostages. I would like to hear your views on this...

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DayGlow @ Oct. 28 2002,10:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it did kill some of the hostages<span id='postcolor'>

some ? like 117 ?

there's always an alternative , always , it's simply that it isn't found in time

[Goodspeed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DayGlow @ Oct. 28 2002,10:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">After reading the through the thread here I can't believe the speculation that people are making here. The operation was a success. 7 out every 8 hostages was saved vs all dead.

Negotiate? This was an act of terrorism. If you negotiate all you are enviting is more acts because it shows that it can be successful. Most western nations have a no nogotiate policy. They will try to end a situation peacefully, but the end result will be that the terrorists will fail, either through arrest or action.

Also this action was not the final plan. When a CT team arrives on scene they will have an Imediate Action plan ready to go within 15min and it will continueally evolve until a final plan can be drawn up. All indications are that this takedown was an IA plan as there was the exchange of gunfire. All you people with the 20/20 hindsight saying that only 2 hostages were shot, exactly how do the authorities know this. They have people fleeing, shots fired, more shots within the building, boom you go. You don't wait to see if they are actually shooting people.

As for using the gas. Yes it was dangerous and yes people died because of it, but the situation called for it. There is no other way to clear the building in time. If they had done a normal dynamic entry within 5 sec all of the suicide bombers would have detinated, killing a lot more than died now. You can't compare this to any other situation in the past. The embassy? It was one of the first operaitons and people didn't really know the capabilities of CT teams at the time, also it was a conventional takedown. No explosives, no suicide bombers. The SAS was able to overwelm the oposition, but it still took 10min to clear the building. Here you have people that would blow everything up within the 1st minute.

I remember reading about the failed Delta operation within Iran. In there plans they had briefed the president that if they did the operation that hostages would die. I forget the actual estimate, but it was at least 20. And you know, if it had gone through it would have been considered a success.

All through this discussion I haven't seen anyone suggest an alternative that would have changed the outcome. You talk of using technology, tell me, what technology is there that would have given them the ability of securing the building within 1 minute to prevent the bombers from going off? Rail guns with x-ray vision that could see throught he walls so they could pick off all the terrorists? A non leathal completely safe sleeping gas that would garentee just putting people to sleep without hurting them? There is no other alternative. You all sound like the people here in town that complained when a cop shot a guy dead because he was standing behind him holding a knife to the hostages throat. People wanted to know why the cop didn't shoot the knife out of his hand. You guys watch too much TV and holywood.

COLINMAN<span id='postcolor'>

I'm totaly agree with you.

[zverushka 0]

I agree too.

[Stag 0]

Here's a likely scenario

It doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone that the authorities were able to put a lot of gas into that theatre in a very short time.

I think it's possible that the anti terrorist teams were fully aware of the consequences of dumping a ton of this gas into a confined space, but circumstances overtook them.

How more likely do you think it is that the plan was to introduce the gas slowly over a number of days, by which time the terrorists would be incapable of putting up a fight, but in no danger of actually dying?

Circumstances took over. It may even have been in the minds of the Russians to allow some of the hostages to be shot, buying time for the gas to work. But the hostages panicked, and suddenly the situation was out of control.

The terrorist bombs were in place. the ground commander has every reason to believe they will be detonated shortly. what does he do?

Whatever his nationaliy, he's out of choices.

[Badgerboy 0]

Arghhh!

Does anyone listen? You can't possibly agree that the plan was carried out correctly all the way through. The Special Forces did a good job, but the refusal to inform doctors of the gas used was a complete fuck up!

If the emergency services had been told, the operation could be hailed as a great success, but sadly, the aftermath left a lot to be desired.

...and believe it or not, reading Tom Clancy books doesn't make you a counter terrorist expert. I could pick holes in some of his publications all day.

[Placebo 29]

Nobody is saying using the gas was a bad idea, we're saying that the way it was implemented was incredibly poor, did they simply think "hey let's use gas" and just do that?

With a couple of hours more planning they could have arranged for say 100 medical staff doctors/nurses etc. to be brought to a certain safe perimeter, 1 soldier per medical person for protection, each medical person given quick brief on how to apply antidote.......

No need to tell any of them what gas is being used, apply the gas, bring out the hostages, let medical staff deal with them right away.........

[Badgerboy 0]

That being my point in case Placebo.

I'm just getting riled by the people who think it was a stunning success, when a little planning and forethought could have saved over a hundred lives.

I don't fault the SpecOp's guys, when when you pumop nerve gas into a building, one might think 'Well I suppose it might be a good idea to inform the medical services about this'.

Otherwise you end up with the carnage that insued.

[Stag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Oct. 27 2002,18:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Arghhh!

Does anyone listen? You can't possibly agree that the plan was carried out correctly all the way through. The Special Forces did a good job, but the refusal to inform doctors of the gas used was a complete fuck up!

If the emergency services had been told, the operation could be hailed as a great success, but sadly, the aftermath left a lot to be desired.

...and believe it or not, reading Tom Clancy books doesn't make you a counter terrorist expert. I could pick holes in some of his publications all day.<span id='postcolor'>

Your point being? 115 dead before they've even left the building is not a success, never was a success, and never will be a success.

Despite what you say, there seems to be an awful lot of people here who think that a massive gas attack was exactly what the Counter-terrorist forces had in mind.

That the Russian authorities refuse to give the doctors details of the actual agent used is nothing less than criminal, and for that, heads should roll.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Oct. 27 2002,22:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">9--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 27 2002,199)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also the rescuers did not inject every hostage with anecdote in time. <span id='postcolor'>

I think you meant to say antidote! <span id='postcolor'>

Yep... LOL

I was thinking that when I was already fallsing asleep.. "you dumbass the word is antidote"

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Oct. 28 2002,05:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You didn't asnwer my question. I said that the use of gas was a good idea, espeically with the poor tactical environment, but the administration of the gas was a cockup.<span id='postcolor'>

OKay, how about this... They used the gas well, it worked wonders on the "tangos" with explosives. They took too long to remove hostages from scene and treat them. There should have been a triage somewhere nearby with special forces holding the antidotes ready to treat the poisoned. Maybe they did not have a large enough unit to effectively remove all 700 people from the building in a few minutes safely.

[Satchel 0]

The exact circumsstances aren´t entirely clear on what purpose russian forces stormed the building, there is more than 1 version. The Russian authorities version; the terrorists were beginning executing hostages, triggering the assault on the theatre and the (deadly) gas employment, this however becomes more and more questionable.

This is the other version.

Saturday, 0530 local time: Shots and several explosions roar from the theatre. In the auditorium dramatic scenes take place. According to statements of several witnesses a small boy tears itself crying from his mother "Mami, I do not know, what I am to do" - with these words he throws a bottle after the terrorists and runs away. The chechen terrorist opens  fire, hitting instead of the boy a man deadly into the head and hurt a young woman.

The Russian authorities affirm later, the chechen terrorists  began executing the hostages, and an immediate assault of the security forces would have been forced that way. The boss of the moscow health authority however, Andrej Selzowski, and the outcome of the "HRT" action disprove the russian authorities version and prove that the terrorist group can´t have begun with executing the hostages, as only 2 died of gunshot wounds; the man who was hit instead of a little boy and a women.

0540 local time: Georgi Wassiliew, composer and producer of the musical "northeast" and used by the terrorists as a contact man between them and the russian safety forces, is brought according to own data into the technique area in the upper floor of the theatre. Wassiliew said to the British daily paper "The Guardian" the terrorists, would have discovered that a monitoring camera had recorded their storm on the stage of the theatre at Wednesday evening. Now they wanted to admire themselves with their action, by watching the video recording of it.

Soldiers of the Russian Alfa special force secretly listened in to terorrist conversations, and found that the 18 hooded female terrorists who had the bombs attached on their body only are allowed to detonate the bombs on direct order of the head of the group. The Russians monitored each movement of the terrorists at the same time by mini cameras. Russian special forces scent their chance as part of the group left to the technical area of the theatre to watch the video taken of them during their assault earlier, so most of the terrorists were in an area faraway from the fixed explosive devices, which are installed in the auditorium.

0620 local time: The special-purpose forces discharge gas into the technique area, ventilation shafts and visitor range of the theatre. As the gas began to show intoxication effect and there was hardly any movement inside, Elite soldiers make entry through the roof into the building and began shooting on already dazed terrorists. At the same time soldiers, who waited more than one day long in drains under the theatre, head into the auditorium and killed the incapacitated female suicide bombers by purposeful shots into temple and neck.

0630 local time: The frontal attack of the Russian troops begins. Security forces storm the theatre entrance hall, look for covering behind concrete columns and exchange violent shootings with the terrorists that didn´t got incapacitated by the gas in the main area. Shortly afterwards explosions and flashbangs rock the theatre, several hostages run disorientated all over the place. In the theatre panic breaks out, a policemen said the units did not co-ordinate their procedure with one another. Some terrorists opened fire, awake rebels pick up their weapons and throw themselves on the police units, which block the entrance. In the hall terrorists are shooting down the balcony, but they obviously cause no damage.

0710 local time: Some terrorists are taken into custody. Numerous hostages lie liveless on the plaster before the theatre. Minutes later the action is explained officially for terminated. 117 hostages and 50 Chechnian rebels are dead.

What we have is the outcome of the action and methods used, and that wasn´t acceptable in terms of a hostage rescue operation, as a HRT unit doesn´t purposely inflict death/injury on the hostages it´s supposed to rescue or exposes them to unnecessary risks, that´s just paradox especially concerning this particular circumsstances and magnitude of a hostage situation.

As we know all hostage fatalities except 2 were not because of violence emitting from the chechen terrorist group, but victims of the course of action taken by the HRT/CT units, which decided what methods were to be employed.

The unwarrantable employment of chemical warfare/ narcotics agent caused the bulk of deaths. It´s the first time gas agent had been in this sort in such a operation, and the result is anything but acceptable. The german hospital in munich that treats the 2 german gas victims doesn´t get information on the gas used, so they cannot treat the patients properly. According to Duma-representative Grigorij Jawlinski The majority of bedfast patients in russian intensive care units are displaying a yellow-ish skin color, which could indicate a severe liver damage as a result of the gas attack.

The best solution to this situation would have been on a political basis instead of amateurish frontal attacks, russians, more precisely Putin, failed in this regard.

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Oct. 28 2002,03:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You didn't asnwer my question. I said that the use of gas was a good idea, espeically with the poor tactical environment, but the administration of the gas was a cockup.

Why the hell would they need to with hold details of the gas to doctors for gods sake? Thanks to incompetence and paranoia high up, innocents have died. This could have been hailed as one of the best hostage rescue efforts around, but because of the fuckups in the aftermath of the assault people have died needlessly.

No situation calls for the use of gas, and then no plans to deal with the effects afterwards. This was a fine tactical plan, ruined by a lack of longterm planning.

How have neglected to comment on the denial of information to doctors etc, plus the poor implemention of extracting the hostages. I would like to hear your views on this...<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry I had to go to bed

I agree that the witholding info from doctors is wrong, but I see that as a seprate incident, a political one by higherups and it should be looked into. I imagine that the guys that made the plan would have stated we will use x gas because it has a strong effect and will incontasipate the terrorists quickly enough to prevent them to detonate the explosives. The hostages will be exposed as well and may have adverse effects. I don't think they would have stated not to give medical treatment. That would be someone higher up the chain of command.

As for evacing the hostages, the building was still hot. From what I understand mines and boobytraps had to be cleared. All of this would take time and force the hostages to stay within the threater.

After reading Satchels post and if it is true, that this wasn't an IA plan in response to the belief that the hostages were under attack then yes, it is a mess.

Also Stachel would an agent of this form even have an 'antidote' or do people basically have to have their system flush it after an exposure.

My viewpoint isn't set in stone yet. It will takes weeks even months to fully understand what happenned here and it may change. From the reports that I have read/seen it was an IA plan in response to what was believed killing of hostages. If it is different, then my opinion will change.

COLINMAN

[PitViper 0]

I can't believe people think they could have conducted this operation without that gas.  There were 50 terrorists and 700+ hostages.  If a single terrorist was alerted, they would detonate or open fire on the hostages.  I would say that the probability that all hostages would be killed on a "regular" op would be 95% in this case. The outcome was better than I expected and this foolish hindsight garbage is annoying.

[akm74 1]

With all respect Satchel, but your version is different from what Russian media (and most important some hostages) sad after.

SpecOps move in right after Chechen kill 2 hostages, rest of them didn’t know how many more they plan to kill.

I’m agreeing on the point about antidoze. Even some Alpha guys sad they expect peoples and doctors outside to take care of antidose right after they move poisoned peoples out. This not happen.

On the other hand the Antidoze (don’t know how to call it) was mixed and delivered day ago with the fruit juice. They expect peoples who starve for 3 day to drink it. That’s why most of the hostages (I guess peoples who drink it before, just my guess) were fine even after this gas. After all 80% of hostages was safe.