Hostage situation in moscow ended

[Blake 0]

I think the gas was the biggest miscalculation in this operation - if it would have worked out these lethal side effects the operation would have been an astonishing success. Now no-one can't really celebrate as about 1 in every 8 hostages was killed, but I wouldn't go on blaming Russian Special Forces to be inferior to western equivalents. Since when has SAS, GIGN or GSG-9 faced such catastrophic situation, 50 terrorists ready to die, 18 of them suicide bombers sitting inside a crowd of 800 hostages. This is a nightmare scenario that makes SAS's 1980 Princess Gate embassy raid sound like child's play and GIGN's operation to free hostages at airport in 1994 look like a walk in the park. Lima embassy takeover in 1997 was also very tiny affair when compared to this strike. So in this light I wouldn't say over-optimistic estimations that '1 casualty is 1 too many, at least in our country' as nobody in western Europe could even dream of this kind of nightmare before it took place in Moscow.

[red oct 2]

yea blakes right, i kinda think that no other special forces could have done any better.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blake @ Oct. 27 2002,23:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the gas was the biggest miscalculation in this operation - if it would have worked out these lethal side effects the operation would have been an astonishing success. Now no-one can't really celebrate as about 1 in every 8 hostages was killed, but I wouldn't go on blaming Russian Special Forces to be inferior to western equivalents. Since when has SAS, GIGN or GSG-9 faced such catastrophic situation, 50 terrorists ready to die, 18 of them suicide bombers sitting inside a crowd of 800 hostages. This is a nightmare scenario that makes SAS's 1980 Princess Gate embassy raid sound like child's play and GIGN's operation to free hostages at airport in 1994 look like a walk in the park. Lima embassy takeover in 1997 was also very tiny affair when compared to this strike. So in this light I wouldn't say over-optimistic estimations that '1 casualty is 1 too many, at least in our country' as nobody in western Europe could even dream of this kind of nightmare before it took place in Moscow.<span id='postcolor'>

"1 death is 1 death too many" is the doctrine that me , and all my western european "coworkers" apply

did princess gate and marignane operations cause the death of 1 hostage out of 8 ? certainly not

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Oct. 27 2002,23:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yea blakes right, i kinda think that no other special forces could have done any better.<span id='postcolor'>

you sure ?

you sure that any other special force would have sent in an incapaciting gas with unknown effects and too much efficient dosage ?

[ran 0]

and i don't think that the russians had high capacity thermal imagery systems nor special entry methods such as explosive window breakers , deep entry charges and an expensive use of primacord , did they ?

the main problem with the "methods" is that you need money to apply them , and that's what lack in russia

edit :

i also forgot the highly volatile incapaciting powder (that would have only caused medical issues to asthmatic people and people with heart problems if badly used

[Blake 0]

The Moscow operation had very little to do with these nifty demo-charge entries, flashbangs, CQB battle skills or thermal imagery that look cool.

50 determined terrorists ready to blow themselves up in a second wouldn't have been scared by them. The whole place was also mined, roof structures packed with C4 ready to blow. Not to mention 18 female suicide bombers with ball-bearing stuffed explosives strapped at their waists. Yet none of the bombs managed to blow in this operation.

And when you read this story about Marseilles Airport Raid in 1994, you could say GIGN was pretty lucky to escape with no fatalities among themselves and passengers as terrorists sprayed cabins with AK47 fire. And there were only few of them:

http://www.specialoperations.com/Counterterrorism/gign.html

[ran 0]

the marignane intervention was a complete fuck up that cause major changes in organisations and tactics in the GIGN

a few GIGN operatives have been more or less severly injured.

there's always an alternative , i don't want to say that all those high-tech means would have been apart of this alternative

but western europe never experienced that kind of situation and doubt is not permitted until proof of the contrary

[Blake 0]

Oddly, I find out that wildest fantasies in Tom Clancy books are becoming a reality. The idea of multi-national anti-terrorism task force doesn't seem too far fetched

[ran 0]

i think that this crisis shown to everybody an exemple of what not to do in this situation

i'm 100% sure that there would have been a less costly alternative to what have been choosen , it's just a lack of luck that it hasn't been found before the one we know

and the russian governement is also for something in the ending of that crisis because of its unwillingness to negociate

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blake @ Oct. 27 2002,23:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oddly, I find out that wildest fantasies in Tom Clancy books are becoming a reality. The idea of multi-national anti-terrorism task force doesn't seem too far fetched <span id='postcolor'>

hehehehe ... i've tried to read R6 ... but i didn't get tooo much into it (stopped around the 400th page) , i didn't recognize the job in this book , the operatives are described as cold killing machines

and as far as i've read , all the terrorits or hostage takers are dead , which in some case (from the descriptions clancy did) could have been avoided

i'm not against the concept of multinational anti terrorist task force as long as it's composed with the best of the best and that it's bigger than the actual separate actual HRT and CT units

[S_Z 0]

I think they did good in this extreme condition. As people here already said 50 terrorists ready to die, many of them suicide bombers and there were also bombs placed in the building ready to blow up the whole building if there was any rescue attempt and add 800 hostages to that, its not an easy task.

Yeah maybe the amount of gas used wasn’t perfect but what if the hadn’t used enough? Then the terrorist would probably have blow the whole building to pieces and killed all hostages.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (S_Z @ Oct. 28 2002,00:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think they did good in this extreme condition. As people here already said 50 terrorists ready to die, many of them suicide bombers and there were also bombs placed in the building ready to blow up the whole building if there was any rescue attempt and add 800 hostages to that, its not an easy task.

Yeah maybe the amount of gas used wasn’t perfect but what if the hadn’t used enough? Then the terrorist would probably have blow the whole building to pieces and killed all hostages.<span id='postcolor'>

yeah , but the job can't be an approximation , otherwise people die , and we call it a tragedy or a negligeance

[Placebo 28]

Seems to me this is a case of value of human life versus governmental ego, and ego won.

"Special forces had to go in because hostages were being shot".......Only 1 hostage died of gunshot wounds, that doesn't balance to me.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Oct. 28 2002,00:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Seems to me this is a case of value of human life versus governmental ego, and ego won.

"Special forces had to go in because hostages were being shot".......Only 1 hostage died of gunshot wounds, that doesn't balance to me.<span id='postcolor'>

agreed

and as already said before : it's the refuse of the russian government to negociate that has lead to this disaster

[S_Z 0]

5--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Oct. 28 2002,005)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Seems to me this is a case of value of human life versus governmental ego, and ego won.

"Special forces had to go in because hostages were being shot".......Only 1 hostage died of gunshot wounds, that doesn't balance to me.<span id='postcolor'>

Well this was during the rescue maybe because I read that they picked out one man and one women and shot them, this according to an eye witness. That why they took the decision to enter the building.

[Mister Frag 0]

If the Russian government had done nothing, or not immediately intervened when the terrorists started to execute hostages as the latest deadline passed, it is possible that everyone would have died. Of course any casualties among the hostages are regrettable, but this is one of the worst scenarios anyone could have presented to the police, and the fact that so many made it out alive is amazing.

The terrorists were completely untrustworthy, and any deal that might have been reached would likely have been broken. For example, they originally said that Russia had one week to withdraw from Chechnia, then the deadline was changed; they said all foreigners would be released, then none were allowed to go.

By the way, did you guys hear who that woman was who was shot and had her fingers broken shortly after the crisis began?

She was a 26-year old sales clerk from a perfume shop who lived nearby. She decided she would go to the theater and try to reason with the terrorists. Because she knew the neighborhood well, she was able to sneak past the police in the early hours of the morning.

The terrorists apparently assumed that she was a police spy -- who else would voluntarily come to the theatre, and how else would someone have gotten into the building? They broke her fingers trying to extract information from her, and when they got none, the shot her in the chest.

[brgnorway 0]

Even if its hard to call the operation a succes, I'm relieved it's over. Having said that I also believe we the dominant economic nations in the world should do some thinking. I suppose that's already happening, but as usual it takes the form of improving existing counter meassures against terror. I do believe this is necessary, but we seem to forget about the causes of terror. It's very much like taking pills in order to cure mental problems. It removes the symptoms - but not the cause of the illness. Perhaps it's time to focus on injustice and oppression caused by our claims to sustain "our way of life".

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Oct. 28 2002,00:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By the way, did you guys hear who that woman was who was shot and had her fingers broken shortly after the crisis began?

She was a 26-year old sales clerk from a perfume shop who lived nearby. She decided she would go to the theater and try to reason with the terrorists. Because she knew the neighborhood well, she was able to sneak past the police in the early hours of the morning.

The terrorists apparently assumed that she was a police spy -- who else would voluntarily come to the theatre, and how else would someone have gotten into the building? They broke her fingers trying to extract information from her, and when they got none, the shot her in the chest.<span id='postcolor'>

her fault .....

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Oct. 28 2002,00:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Oct. 28 2002,00:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By the way, did you guys hear who that woman was who was shot and had her fingers broken shortly after the crisis began?

She was a 26-year old sales clerk from a perfume shop who lived nearby. She decided she would go to the theater and try to reason with the terrorists. Because she knew the neighborhood well, she was able to sneak past the police in the early hours of the morning.

The terrorists apparently assumed that she was a police spy -- who else would voluntarily come to the theatre, and how else would someone have gotten into the building? They broke her fingers trying to extract information from her, and when they got none, the shot her in the chest.<span id='postcolor'>

her fault .....<span id='postcolor'>

I agree - realy stupid thing to do even if the hostage takers are to blame for the killing!

[Mister Frag 0]

Of course it was incredible naive to think that she could talk some sense into a group of 50 terrorists that had indicated their willingness to die.

However, the terrorists could just as easily have simply taken her hostage like the others and tried to use her as a bargaining chip. The fact that they tortured and then killed her just shows you what types of people the terrorists were, and that the outcome of the operation was relatively fortuitous, despite the deaths that resulted from the gas.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Oct. 28 2002,01:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course it was incredible naive to think that she could talk some sense into a group of 50 terrorists that had indicated their willingness to die.

However, the terrorists could just as easily have simply taken her hostage like the others and tried to use her as a bargaining chip. The fact that they tortured and then killed her just shows you what types of people the terrorists were, and that the outcome of the operation was relatively fortuitous, despite the deaths that resulted from the gas.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, what you are saying makes sense. It's sort of like leaving your car without locking the front door. It's stupid but does not justify the person that steals it (even if your insurance company may think differerent).

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Oct. 27 2002,18:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">5--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Oct. 28 2002,005)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Seems to me this is a case of value of human life versus governmental ego, and ego won.

"Special forces had to go in because hostages were being shot".......Only 1 hostage died of gunshot wounds, that doesn't balance to me.<span id='postcolor'>

agreed

and as already said before : it's the refuse of the russian government to negociate that has lead to this disaster<span id='postcolor'>

negotiate? are you mad?

[Mister Frag 0]

Every wonder why the Palestinians never bother trying to take any Israeli hostages (at least not in Israel)?

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Oct. 27 2002,17:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 27 2002,233)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is real life we are ralking about, with explosives!<span id='postcolor'>

and ?<span id='postcolor'>

what the heck? 50 hostage takers, lot's of explosives, maybe hands on triggers... ?

Actually... what would you suggest in that situation... Now that it's over it doesn't even matter but what is a good alternative?

I have no idea what you think a hostage rescue team can do, but this was such a bad situation it's unbelievable.

[FSPilot 0]

Didn't a group of hostages OD on the knockout gas and end up dead?

Or am I behind the times.