Is a few weekends worth of work worth half a million Euro?

[chortles 263]

a lot of the most popular voted mods are not going to be the best polished (DayZ's scripting comes to mind) or even the most inventive

As previously stated, the single player category was the only one subject to an outside popularity contest, all other categories came down to preference by BI...

[benamaina 0]

Selection criteria for finalists:

No mention of votes or popularity. (Except for SP mode entries)

Those are the criteria published . I meant if those are the true criteria , because I do not see any kind of logic in choosing finalists ..

[ProfTournesol 956]

It's their money, they can use whatever criterias they want. Among the finalists there are a lot of well known addons or missions makers, I don't see any problem.

[Rydygier 1309]

Exactly. The "problem", some people seem to see, is simply, that choices made (alas!) didn't fit their own expectations/criteria/logic/personal preferences (an universal, objective point of reference obviously), like MANW finalisits list needed community (read: their) approval or something. And if BI dared to choose basing on their own judgement and taste instead - whole contest except SP category apparently is "unfair" (not mention about lacking "official control" whatever that could be). So indeed, no problem in fact, just some funny thinking here and there, as usual.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Rydygier

[das attorney 858]

Exactly. The "problem", some people seem to see, is simply, that choices made (alas!) didn't fit their own expectations/criteria/logic/personal preferences (an universal, objective point of reference obviously), like MANW finalisits list needed community (read: their) approval or something. And if BI dared to choose basing on their own judgement and taste instead - whole contest except SP category apparently is "not fair" (not mention about lacking "official control" whatever that could be). So indeed, no problem in fact, just some funny thinking here and there, as usual.

Was that aimed at me?

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion Rydygier. It would be freakily unnatural to not have an opinion tbh. Of course BIS's choice for TC/MP/Addon won't be the same as everyone else's. I do accept them even if I don't agree with all of them. Would you want to live in a world where everyone accepts everything without comment or judgement?

One could point out that as a finalist, you are bound to agree with the process that put you there, so you have a vested interest in defending the integrity of that process. Maybe inwardly you feel some of the finalists didn't deserve their place but would not want to voice that concern for fear of jeopordising chances of winning. Maybe you would feel differently about the choices if you had not reached the final? I don't know. This is all just speculation by me and not judgement on you.

Anyway, I don't want to get in a slanging match with anyone here - that's why I don't rant and rave about which ones I didn't think deserved to get into the final on their own merits. What's done is done and cannot be changed. Even so, I don't have to agree with everything I see or hear.

[Rydygier 1309]

Was that aimed at me?

Nope. :)

Having an opinion or "even" being surprised is IMO (sic!) perfectly OK. Hell, I'm surprised too about few positions in and few out. Point is, and some seem don't see this, messing own opinion with objective truth and both with MANW evaluation rules, that our opinion or surprise doesn't affect nor negate contest fairness - some seem to think otherwise and only with such opinions I'm arguing.

One could point out that as a finalist, you are bound to agree with the process that put you there, so you have a vested interest in defending the integrity of that process.

One could, but my presence in the final (yay!) is not the result of criticized/defended process. In SP players was choosing, not BI.

Maybe inwardly you feel some of the finalists didn't deserve their place but would not want to voice that concern for fear of jeopordising chances of winning.

Actually haven't any strong own opinion here - still failed to try most of them - days too short. :( I only know, in my category competition is really strong, so I wouldn't even dare to evaluate my chances. Especially, we already learned, how unpredictable evaluation may be. So I'll just wait and see, how it will go.

But I think, who deserve - in the light of contest rules are exactly those chosen by BI. By fact, they was chosen alone. Because that way MANW works, and who thought, it's an unfair rule, could not participate.

Maybe you would feel differently about the choices if you had not reached the final?

To be clear, I do understand people in such situation, even if SP category excluded me from such (being excluded due to BI "misterious" decision) anyway. So yeah, "I spent X000 work hours, many was liking result much, yet BI preferred to put into final something... weird instead, so it's unfair" thinking is understandable to me perfectly, still I argue with it, cause there's no valid logic behind it. And, as we could read, such resentment can lead even to some hasty, harmful statements toward BI. That's what made me speak on this topic in the first place.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Rydygier

[das attorney 858]

Okay fair enough - I thought initially you were having a dig - thanks for clearing it up :)

Just so you know, I was aware it wasn't bis who got you there, hence the "BIS's choice for TC/MP/Addon" part of my post.

It's tricky thinking about the "logic" part of it. As you say, there seems no logic to resentment, but if I was someone who committed a project and didn't make final 10, then by my logic, the logic of BIS would be at fault. So I guess we are all logical, unless we are looking negatively at the actions of others! :D

[froggyluv 2136]

Well congrats to any of the winners -$50,000 is a fat prize!

Just bummed no gore mod came out of this. Remember the dev's stating it would be easier to do things like dismemberment etc with latest build...would have been great to have extended visual wounds and blood (no psycho)

[mr.g-c 6]

ACE³ in the finalists?

[chortles 263]

ACE did not enter MANW.

[code34 248]

Nope. :)

Having an opinion or "even" being surprised is IMO (sic!) perfectly OK. Hell, I'm surprised too about few positions in and few out. Point is, and some seem don't see this, messing own opinion with objective truth and both with MANW evaluation rules, that our opinion or surprise doesn't affect nor negate contest fairness - some seem to think otherwise and only with such opinions I'm arguing.

It s exactly the opposit of what was said before. You transform what you expect in "objective" truth.

As i said we all known that BIS broke the rules, it s official. They don't want to see some entries eliminated before the selection begins.

Message from BIS:Submissions Re-opened send to all contesters

After analyzing the submitted entries in the Make Arma Not War contest, we noticed that many contestants had not correctly submitted their data (around 50 entries) - even though some of these entries were marked to be in beta or even gold state.

Although we have tried to communicate the correct submission method as clearly as possible, we recognize that some of our messages might not have gotten through - or that some of the contestants might have simply misunderstood. Therefore, since this involves such a significant number of entries, among which several that have attracted a high number of supporters, we have decided to temporarily re-open the submissions for existing entries in the Multiplayer/Addon/Total Modification categories (does not apply to the Singleplayer category). This will give every contestant in these categories the chance to correctly submit their data, or if you have already submitted your data correctly, to submit updated data.

All in all, we have carefully considered the pros and cons of this decision, and we fully understand this might upset some of the Make Arma Not War contestants. However, as ultimately the point of this contest is to highlight quality community content, we feel this is the best way forward. Instructions regarding the re-opening of submissions can be found below.

Stop to claim, this contest is fair. All guys that did the job at time were flouted cause:

- eliminated entries were back in contest

- entries with high number of supporters make BIS to change the rules (do you think it happend with a low support entries?)

SP selection was worst of all cause selection was based on external vote number, not as works value. There is no way to check where are from the vote, if it s really relative to the work , or vote from external community members (kikoo lol community where is hundred/thousand of players from mmo, bots or others things not linked to arma. That rules were finaly apply on all selections.

You should assume that.

What i expected from BIS is not an explanation on why they already choose the finalist before selection phase starts, i only expect a litteral review of each entries with some notes. Thoses kind of article we can read on video game website, that show they did the job and respect our job.

That is the minimun job, that the community expect from their part: what they liked, disliked, their notations, etc...

Edited February 2, 2015 by code34

[.kju 3244]

@ code34

Only people who owned A3 were able to vote in SP.

[IndeedPete 1038]

;2872654']@ code34

Only people who owned A3 were able to vote in SP.

Still, some projects in the SP category have tons of votes with little content. I believe there are several unfinished projects among the finalists showing maybe a showcase or one mission of a planned campaign. But that's how public voting works I guess. Some people see a fancy trailer and give their vote. Also, sub-communities and fans of certain participants might have had an impact. With virtually no reputation pre-contest I feel I had to fight for every vote, i.e. by asking people who commented on my project or messaged me directly in a positive way to give their vote. Anyway, that's as fair as a popularity contest can be I suppose.^^ And by that probably a lot fairer than our elections... :D

[code34 248]

;2872654']@ code34

Only people who owned A3 were able to vote in SP.

Do you know there is more than 1 million of A3 game copy sold on Steam ? I do not think that this be sufficient constraint to allow of whether the votes are actually based on the quality of work or no.

[.kju 3244]

It was not a judgement about voting. I think it was poorly done, but overall to include the players opinion at least to some degree does not sound wrong either.

[Rydygier 1309]

Sorry, code34, we could continue, but I see pointless arguing with you further on this - already said all, what had to say. Nothing, what you said so far makes me to change opinion on anything, I said, and apparently vice versa. I don't forsee any progress in this discussion. Fortunately, it's not important, if we achieve here any consensus or not. Just wondering, why you're still pressing on this, when you said, you don't care (rhetorical question).

[code34 248]

Sorry, code34, we could continue, but I see pointless arguing with you further on this - already said all, what had to say. Nothing, what you said so far makes me to change opinion on anything, I said, and apparently vice versa. I don't forsee any progress in this discussion. Fortunately, it's not important, if we achieve here any consensus or not. Just wondering, why you're still pressing on this, when you said, you don't care (rhetorical question).

I am not trying to convince you. I just brings the contradiction in what you say.

You said that players could leave the competition if they did not agree. Are you serious ? Did you do that ? Nobody would have done it, after several months of intensive development. We commited our projects. We accepted that eliminated entries come back in the contest, because we had no choice, and nobody ask us for that.

To be clear, as I said previously, I do not care that the competition is not fair, and the rules was no respected. The only thing that interress me is to have a review from BIS on the tests they conducted during the selection.

[killzone_kid 1330]

Are we going to expect the same drama after winners are chosen? ;-)

[IndeedPete 1038]

Are we going to expect the same drama after winners are chosen? ;-)

Nope, going to be worse. :D

[code34 248]

Nope, going to be worse. :D

i share this :D

[badluckburt 78]

I really don't see why some people feel Bohemia needs to explain their choices.

It won't change a single thing about the whole contest and it reminds me of the 'experience Chernarus from a new perspective' thing, it was completely free and available to everyone and still people managed to complain because it didn't live up to whatever fire-breathing, tail-whipping imagination they let loose on a vague quote - someone actually thought they'd be releasing Chernarus for A3 :facepalm:

If you don't want to be disappointed, don't set yourself up for it with high expectations, it's a long way down. I'm pretty sure even if Bohemia did decide to shed light on their decisions, it's just gonna be met with complaints from people thinking they know better.

Where were those people when the rules for the contest were announced as I believe it was clear from the start that BI would be judging parts of the contest without community input.

And what's stopping those people from setting up their own voting polls? Don't they know the old saying, if you want something done right......

[.kju 3244]

To do better, one needs to learn from past mistakes.

Getting input and feedback with a different perspective is often very useful.

I think you misread the critic of most people. However you can always cherry pick attempting to push your POV.

[AD_clem64121 11]

I really don't see why some people feel Bohemia needs to explain their choices.

It won't change a single thing about the whole contest and it reminds me of the 'experience Chernarus from a new perspective' thing, it was completely free and available to everyone and still people managed to complain because it didn't live up to whatever fire-breathing, tail-whipping imagination they let loose on a vague quote - someone actually thought they'd be releasing Chernarus for A3 :facepalm:

If you don't want to be disappointed, don't set yourself up for it with high expectations, it's a long way down. I'm pretty sure even if Bohemia did decide to shed light on their decisions, it's just gonna be met with complaints from people thinking they know better.

Where were those people when the rules for the contest were announced as I believe it was clear from the start that BI would be judging parts of the contest without community input.

And what's stopping those people from setting up their own voting polls? Don't they know the old saying, if you want something done right......

- Technical quality: technical design, optimization and innovative solution of an Entry;

- Originality: originality and innovation of an Entry's concept;

- Experience: overall gameplay experience, balance of design and challenge presented by an Entry;

- Presentation: coherence and consistency of an Entry's presentation in terms of functionality and expression.

When i see the result, sorry too say that, but i must be dumb, I don't see rationnal choose with this kind of standard !

Just look the Multiplayer section. I feel that i'm not alone to think that !

And for me it make me angry for the modder, because they enter in the contest thinking that this would be a serious one because of the amount of the price !

I Feel bad for http://makearmanotwar.com/entry/aZDNVtbCpA#.VNCvi_l5OKQ

http://makearmanotwar.com/entry/2Nvm9bPQHl#.VNCwWvl5OKQ

http://makearmanotwar.com/entry/eba3yzQZev#.VNCw2_l5OKQ

Just With the standard they should have used, you can see that were are something wrong !

And that why some people feel Bohemia needs to explain their choices

Edited February 3, 2015 by 1REV_clem64121
VERY VERY BAD ENGLISH

[Ice9 10]

I agree with the fact that a lot of people don't understand the choices of the jury. For me here are the variables that BIS should have taken seriously:

- Originality

- Code-scripting

- Supporters

- New gameplay added

- Optimization

- Popularity (steamworkshop, youtube)

That's why I don't understand why MOCAP or Armageddon were not in the finalists. For example, when I see every videos on Armageddon (even some with 100.000 views), every players are having a lot of fun. You can not ignore that. I don't know why this proves that it's not an acceptable mod. Maybe BIS is not aware of what players are experiencing ingame... I haven't seen videos of airsoft multiplayers having so much fun...

That shows there is a difference of mentality of BIS and the community...

It would be great if some finalists can give their opinions about that.

An important thing: be careful no to blame the finalists. Congratulation to them. What's the community wants is some explanation from BIS' decisions.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Ice9

[Rydygier 1309]

That shows there is a difference of mentality of BIS and the community...

Yes, true, I think that's often unrecognized difference. Only a guess, though would be confirmed not the first time. It's something more than difference between player's view and dev's/businessman view. It's like they see their creation pretty differently, than the community, taken as a single being en masse. Not a concern IMO, just an interesting observation. And, after all, it's more their game than ours.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Rydygier