France General

[mistyronin 1181]

Still what type of explosive could have had so little effect? A grenade would have wounded a lot more men.

There's a lot of different grenades. For example offensive grenades don't tend to have much range, as they don't throw fragments unlike the defensive grenades.

Besides it could be any kind of home-made explosive.

BTW the other assault:

---------- Post added at 01:32 ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 ----------

Paris prosecutor reveals new details on both sieges

General:

Hayat Boumedienne, Amedy Coulibaly’s girlfriend and accomplice, is still at large;

Coulibaly and his girlfriend Hayat Boumedienne spoke more than 500 times to the Kouachi brothers over the phone;

Five people remain in detention, including the wife of one of the Kouachi brothers;

One of Wednesday’s wounded is still in critical condition.

Vincennes:

‘Likely’ that four of the hostages were killed when the gunman entered the Kosher market, before police staged their assault;

Police identified Coulibaly’s DNA from a cloth found near the scene of the policewoman’s in Montrouge, leading to his identification within two hours.

Dammartin-en-Goële:

An employee at the printing works where the Kouachi brothers were, was hiding on the second floor, underneath the sink, but the brothers were not aware of his presence;

in addition to the AK47s, the Kouachis had one RPG inside the Dammartin-en-Goële printworks, ready to launch

[Tonci87 163]

Check your video and check this one that was shared before:

The guy that ran against the SWAT seems to had an explosive, in this uncensored one you can see it, and even how after the explosion the SWAT guys keep shooting at him in the floor in front of the supermarket. Seconds 7 to 12.

You'll also see how the downed SWAT is pulled by his mates after the explosion to the other side of the cars.

They all had protective equipment and used the shields as anti-fragmentation.

That officer that has to lie own next to the car was definately friendly fire, you can see it at 0:13. There is like two groups right side of the entrance, one bunched up in the front, the other one bunched up a bit back. The guy is at 0:13 kind of between those groups as he falls backwards, he was initially a part of the first group and starts to fall when they unload on the guy running out. Another officer joins him on the floor next to the silver car, he too appears to be wounded from friendly fire. This doesn´t look professional at all. In fact it is a miracle that no police officer was killed. If the terrorist was prepared he could have shot their legs as the door was opening.

The explosions are not from something the terrorist had, when the explosions happen he is already running towards them covering his face with his hands those were flashbangs thown against bunched up teammembers you can see that in the video posted by Gliptal that shows the whole thing from another angle.

My guess is that they had to storm fast without the necessary preparations and that is why everything is so chaotic.

[Sooke 13]

the Paris prosecutor also said they found a consequent amount of explosives in one or 2 bags carried by Coulibaly.

During the hostage crisis Coulibaly also called some of his friend to ask them to attack various target, including police station in Paris suburds.

But the prosecutor is at no point talking about grenade or explosives being thrown at the police.

The supermarket door was booby trapped and this was unknown from the police force at the time of the assault.

To me it seems like they were throwing flashbang at him while he was running towards them and he probably kicked one back.

@Tonci

Flashbang/stun grenades can be lethal.

Edit : oups wrong link, this is the one I was referring to

The last thing you'd want is one of these landing near the head of a potentialy restrained hostage

I'm not saying this out of national pride, I'm Belgian. But you have to keep in mind they had to "rush" the assault after the Kouachi brother were killed. Coulibaly said he would kill all the hostage if it would happen.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Sooke

[Tonci87 163]

I'm not saying this out of national pride, I'm Belgian. But you have to keep in mind they had to "rush" the assault after the Kouachi brother were killed. Coulibaly said he would kill all the hostage if it would happen.

Yeah that is what I´m saying. I´m sure those guys are pros but this assault really looks rushed, and yes even sloppy. I´m sure that this would have gone much much better if they had more time to prepare for it and to assign everyone to his role, etc.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I'm not sure they could do any better, this guy had already killed 5 innocent people without any remorse and was ready to kill as much policemen as possible. The RAID did what they had to do, get rid of him before he could kill more people. He also had a lot of explosives, that's why they shot at him even close.

The real failure comes from the intelligence services who didn't see that coming despite being warned several times that those guys were very dangerous. If the police lacks of legal means to arrest them before they act, something must change. 1200 people are reported being as dangerous as those 3 ones.

---------- Post added at 11:22 ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 ----------

The US ambassador to France have said "we are all Charlie Hebdo".

We? Who actually? Many American journalists wrote today - we are not Charlie! There are many articles and ongoing debate from left to right (tv,paper,twitter,facebook) that American people don't like vulgar and obscene kind of humor presented in French magazine. .

I will not comment on American puritanism or the fact that the French constitution doesn't start with "In God We Trust", but "I am charlie" doesn't mean you agree with Charlie's cartoons, it means "one cannot be killed because of cartoons published in a newspaper".

[nodunit 397]

Slightly on the OT side but said journalists likely didn't understand the meaning behind it, we're good at that. I mean hey we are still argueing over wether or not our constitutional amendments hold up today and why they may or may not.

[13islucky 10]

The real failure comes from the intelligence services who didn't see that coming despite being warned several times that those guys were very dangerous. If the police lacks of legal means to arrest them before they act, something must change. 1200 people are reported being as dangerous as those 3 ones.

France's legal system has quite a few shortcomings, just recently I was talking to a gendarme and he mentioned that could not arrest a person who was offering to sell an illegal firearm because said person hasn't sold it yet. No criminal action=no arrest. The situation may have been similar with this situation.

[mistyronin 1181]

Here's the main issue.

Do we want to increment insanely the security levels and become an authoritarian country Big Brother 3.0 and have a chance of terrorist attack of 1%?

Or we prefer to live with our values, with a free and just democracy but with a terrorist chance of 10%?

I personally prefer democracy.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I personally prefer democracy.

I do too. But i'm afraid we'll have to adapt our judiciary system to what is happening now. It's a war, we mustn't stay as naive as we were, even if that somehow defeats what Charlie's journalists were fighting for.

Edited January 10, 2015 by ProfTournesol

[mistyronin 1181]

I do too. But i'm afraid we'll have to adapt our judiciary system to what is happening now. It's a war, we mustn't stay as naive as we were, even if that somehow defeats what Charlie's journalists were fighting for.

I do agree that certain small changes must be introduced. But always having in mind what are our democratic values, the human rights. What are our roots: American & French Revolutions.

Blinded by our will of retribution we may end being like those who we want to fight.

Look what happened after 9/11, the war in Iraq and A-Stan only increased the terrorist threat. Besides the Patriot Act destroyed a lot of basic rights.

Liberté, égalité, fraternité ou la mort.

---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 16:54 ----------

( Al Jazeera ) Yemeni al-Qaeda claims French magazine attack

Al-Qaeda's Yemeni branch has claimed responsibility for the deadly attack on the French satirical Charlie Hebdo magazine, saying the shooting was an operation to teach the French the limits of freedom of expression.

Abu Hareth al-Nezari, an senior member of Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), made the claim in an audio recording published online late on Friday.

"Some French were not polite with the prophets and that was the reason why a few of the believers, who loved Allah and his prophet and loved martyrdom, went to them to teach them how to behave and how to be polite with the prophets and to teach them that the freedom of expression has limits and boundaries," al-Nezari said in the recording.

He also warned that France would not enjoy security unless it stopped what he called a "war" on Islam.

Edited January 10, 2015 by MistyRonin

[tortuosit 486]

That grenade at 00:42, it exploded where the GIGN team was, what is it? Is it from GIGN or thrown by the terrorist?

http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/terrorisme/video-l-assaut-final-porte-de-vincennes_793207.html (EDIT: seems to have been removed, it's the video where the uncensored shooting could be seen. However its at the obvious places).

EDIT: Can be better seen in

at 00:07

Super interesting to see the special forces in action. I feel most sorry for the survivors which have been frightened to death, its pretty touching.

There was an ex GSG9 member on German TV this evening, he said that the french units are problematic to work with because they think that they are amazing while they are in fact just ok when compared to the GSG9 for example.

Seen it. He is a former boss and solved the Mogadischu incident, therefore very famous here in Germany. I thought it's a shame what he was talking about. Of course I can very well imagine that working together with the french is... complicated. :) I'm thinking of the language barrier, in my experience french are often strange about this. But really, he only could have seen the TV/internet reports we all know and IMO was not in a position to judge.

Also he started the interview with telling that GSG9 is the leading EU swat team and all others learnt from them... I thought this is an old man who should better say nothing.

Edited January 10, 2015 by tortuosit

[Tonci87 163]

That grenade at 00:42, it exploded where the GIGN team was, what is it? Is it from GIGN or thrown by the terrorist?

http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/terrorisme/video-l-assaut-final-porte-de-vincennes_793207.html (EDIT: seems to have been removed, it's the video where the uncensored shooting could be seen. However its at the obvious places).

EDIT: Can be better seen in

at 00:07

Super interesting to see the special forces in action. I feel most sorry for the survivors which have been frightened to death, its pretty touching.

Seen it. He is a former boss and solved the Mogadischu incident, therefore very famous here in Germany. I thought it's a shame what he was talking about. Of course I can very well imagine that working together with the french is... complicated. :) I'm thinking of the language barrier, in my experience french are often strange about this. But really, he only could have seen the TV/internet reports we all know and IMO was not in a position to judge.

Also he started the interview with telling that GSG9 is the leading EU swat team and all others learnt from them... I thought this is an old man who should better say nothing.

The terrorist didn´t throw anything, when the explosions went off he was already running towards them with his hand in front of his face, panic reaction. The explosion was a Flashbang that someone dropped into his own team.

[mistyronin 1181]

The terrorist didn´t throw anything, when the explosions went off he was already running towards them with his hand in front of his face, panic reaction. The explosion was a Flashbang that someone dropped into his own team.

Running towards your enemies in a ramming posture is not a panic reaction, it's just the opposite ( when panicked you froze or run in the opposite direction ). He was carring something that exploded.

In fact to run against your enemies you really need to have courage as it's against all natural instincts ( even professional soldiers have issues with that ), he was using his arms to protect himself to be able to reach them. He wanted to die killing, be a martyr and all that...

The bang and explosion flame was different from a flashbang.

---------- Post added at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was at 20:08 ----------

In fact Tonci look for the uncensored video ( I can't link it as its agains the forum rules ) you'll see that for the position of the agents and the guy make impossible a friendly fire incident.

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:20 ----------

From The Guardian - Live:

The family of Ahmed Merabet, the police officer murdered outside the offices of satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo on Wednesday, have made an emotional appeal for calm in the wake of the attacks. The officer’s brother, Malek Merabet, said:

I address this to all the racists, the Islamophobes and the antisemites. You mustn’t mix up extremism with Muslims. The mad men have no colour nor religion.

I don’t want there to be any incidents in France or the world … Islam is a religion of peace, of love … My brother was a Muslim and he was killed by two terrorists, by false Muslims.

Edited January 10, 2015 by MistyRonin

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yes, his brother added that he was "Muslim, and very proud of being a police officer and defending the values of the Republic". I don't know what he thought of Charlie's caricatures, but he died to defend the freedom of speech. Reminding us of the famous Voltaire's quote "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".

[mistyronin 1181]

Yes, his brother added that he was "Muslim, and very proud of being a police officer and defending the values of the Republic". I don't know what he thought of Charlie's caricatures, but he died to defend the freedom of speech. Reminding us of the famous Voltaire's quote "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".

That's the whole quid of the question. Because that values, are not only the ones of the Republic of France, but of all the democratic World.

And that unfortunate attacks were not only against France, but against all of us who believe in those values.

[Tonci87 163]

Running towards your enemies in a ramming posture is not a panic reaction, it's just the opposite ( when panicked you froze or run in the opposite direction ). He was carring something that exploded.

In fact to run against your enemies you really need to have courage as it's against all natural instincts ( even professional soldiers have issues with that ), he was using his arms to protect himself to be able to reach them. He wanted to die killing, be a martyr and all that...

The bang and explosion flame was different from a flashbang.

---------- Post added at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was at 20:08 ----------

In fact Tonci look for the uncensored video ( I can't link it as its agains the forum rules ) you'll see that for the position of the agents and the guy make impossible a friendly fire incident.

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:20 ----------

From The Guardian - Live:

Look again, he was panicked because a flashbang blew up almost in his face. That does really disorient you. He droped his gun and simply tried to run out of this hell. It´s an instinct.

[mistyronin 1181]

Look again, he was panicked because a flashbang blew up almost in his face. That does really disorient you. He droped his gun and simply tried to run out of this hell. It´s an instinct.

I have watched that video like 100 times by now and all I see is a guy running from the interior to the exterior, from the back of the shop towards the exit passing through the cash desks, there are first a few flash-bangs, then later the other distinctive explosion ( it's better appreciated in the far away videos ). All in a rugby attacking posture, not in a scared "I-don't-know-where-am-I" fashion.

Obviously we will never know 100% sure, but my experience tells me just otherwise; not an instinct at all, his movements are coordinated. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of people panicking in my life, I even experimented the feeling of being shot at ( not nice at all believe me ); and this guy doesn't resemble any of them.

BTW he didn't drop the gun, he had it "slinged".

---------- Post added at 22:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:41 ----------

( The Independent ) Paris shootings: Muslim man hailed a 'hero' for hiding hostages in Jewish supermarket's walk-in refrigerator

A young Muslim man has been hailed a hero for hiding hostages fleeing gunman Amedy Coulibaly after he stormed a Jewish supermarket.

Lassana Bathily, originally from Mali in west Africa, reportedly shepherded terrified customers to safety in a walk-in chiller as the jihadist gunman took hold of the Hyper Cacher supermarket in Porte de Vincennes, Paris, on Friday.

Coulibaly executed four of the 19 hostages before police entered the building and ended the assault, killing the gunman as he ran to the front door.

Mr Bathily has been praised for his quick-thinking actions since his role in helping customers. He told BFMTV: "When they ran down, I opened the door (from the freezer).

"There are several people who came to me. I turned off the light, I turned off the freezer."

"When I turned off the cold, I put them (hostages) in, I closed the door, I told them to stay calm."

Reports in France state Mr Bathily, 24, helped lead six people to safety.

Several people called for Mr Bathily to be recognised for his actions as details of the episode emerged.

One tweet from worldwithjan read: "A true hero of the hostage crisis in the kosher grocery store yesterday.

( TIME ) Muslim Man Hailed as Hero for Actions in Kosher Grocery Store Attack

A Muslim employee of the Paris kosher grocery store attacked by a terrorist Friday is being hailed as a hero for saving multiple customers from the gunman.

( International Business Times ) Paris Kosher supermarket shootings: Lassana Bathily – Muslim shopworker who saved six people

France's Jewish Defence League praised Lassana Bathily for saving "many Jewish lives by hiding them in the cold room".

The tweet ends with the hashtag, "Jews and Arabs refuse to be enemies".

Edited January 10, 2015 by MistyRonin

[sudayev 27]

Christian and muslim jokes by Charlie Hebdo - OK. Jewish - NOT / not too much.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/05/world/europe/05france.html

A story about president Sarkozy's son Jean, his jewish gf and one picture that caused a lot of stir that led to firing a cartoonist responsible for "anti-semite" jokes.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Sudayev

[Sooke 13]

Europe is NO LONGER place that people see on movies from 90s or 80s about "Green Holidays" "Italian Holidays" "European vacations", it is no longer romantic place where you roam peacefully across ancient architecture, it became place where you move keeping eye to not be robbed by non-natives

Public estimation of Muslim population :

France : 31% (actual Muslim population : 8%)

Britain : 21% (5%)

Belgium : 29% (6%)

Spain : 16% (2%)

Italy : 20% (4%)

Germany : 19% (6%)

Sweden : 17% (5%)

Poland : 5% (0.1%)

Hungary 7% (0.1%)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6yStDXIYAE93nq.png:large

[mistyronin 1181]

In fact in most of Western Europe the natives are the ones who rob most of the money by far.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6yStDXIYAE93nq.png:large

Interesting data Sooke I also remember one study about rapes, where most of women always blamed foreigners, but the police statistics say that most of the rapes ( more than 90% ) were committed by natives.

In any case, just a little side-note, if you had done that same sociological study starting in 2000, the numbers would have skyrocketed ( 11M Madrid: 191 deaths and 2050 injured; 7/7 London: 56 deaths and 700 injured ).

[ProfTournesol 956]

A fair analysis on the question of the intelligence failure : Charlie Hebdo attack: A French intelligence failure ?

[whisper 0]

I do too. But i'm afraid we'll have to adapt our judiciary system to what is happening now. It's a war, we mustn't stay as naive as we were, even if that somehow defeats what Charlie's journalists were fighting for.

Can't agree with that because the wording is wrong.

We can't consider it as a war, that's what has been done for 10+ years now and it only leads to killing innocents and turning their relatives to more terrorists. War has an identified ennemy. Terrorism hides the identities. You can't target that and always end up misfiring. Always.

I'm not against acting against these assholes, far from it, but calling that a "war" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Much huge mistakes have been made in the name of this "war" in the past.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Can't agree with that because the wording is wrong.

We can't consider it as a war, that's what has been done for 10+ years now and it only leads to killing innocents and turning their relatives to more terrorists. War has an identified ennemy. Terrorism hides the identities. You can't target that and always end up misfiring. Always.

I'm not against acting against these assholes, far from it, but calling that a "war" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Much huge mistakes have been made in the name of this "war" in the past.

Well, at least 1200 people have already been identified as dangerous. Something must be done against them before they act, that's as simple as that. Call it whatever you want, we cannot simply wait for them to act.

I may add that what leaves me a bad taste in the mouth is what happened this week, not how we call things. I know democracy cannot ensure 100% security to its fellow citizens, that we must take risk in the name of freedom, but being naive or politically correct will lead us nowhere else than into chaos.

I however agree with the fact that the so called "War on terror" was a complete disaster, and that we now suffer from its consequences. That doesn't mean that nothing must be done though.

Edited January 11, 2015 by ProfTournesol

[sudayev 27]

Fire set to German newspaper office after it republishes Charlie Hebdo cartoons

http://itar-tass.com/en/world/770649

[ProfTournesol 956]

I'm the jewish customers of the Kosher shop, i'm the muslim policeman executed in the street, i'm Charlie's cartoonists and journalists.

I'm Charlie.