Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

[roshnak 41]

People exaggerate in regular speech; It's just natural human emote. A designer by training knows how to separate the wheat from the chaff from feedback. That's what we get paid for ;)

Ok, so is this statement an exaggeration or not?

These are handicaps that my team and I are struggling with in Arma3 missions. Mainly because of the tempo our team has set forth for our in game training and missions. Specifically urban operations where corners,walls and openings from buildings play a big factor regarding who gets the bullet and who gets miss. It would be a benefit for myself and any other players of Arma3 if we could gain a marksmanship feature to counter weapon sway and inertia using techniques rather than the mechanics of more time + less energy + no movement = better aim.

Becuase it doesn't sound like he is exaggerating, but it also sounds really, really wrong.

Edited November 12, 2014 by roshnak

[Variable 322]

Bottom line (for 100th time...) choice should be mine-without the need to add 1 word of code to achieve it

"Should"? You should have the option to switch off only features that the designers decided upon. It's a design issue, not Giorgy's fully customizable wish list game.

Having said that, I do think the sway should be decreased in general and particularly in some situations. For example, when you are prone there shouldn't be any sway at all because it's counter realistic. While prone it's just the opposite, weapon control is extra stiff when your elbows are on the ground.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Variable

[machineabuse 11]

Ok, so is this statement an exaggeration or not?

No sir. But for the sake of clarity; I don't work for BIS.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Machineabuse

[Vanz0r 39]

Having said that, I do think the sway should be decreased in general and particularly in some situations. For example, when you are prone there shouldn't be any sway at all because it's counter realistic. While prone it's just the opposite, weapon control is extra stiff when your elbows are on the ground.

Sway is far too great in its current iteration, I'd suggest reducing it by 50% and much like head bob make it user/mission configurable.

[DancZer 65]

I think it is good as is. Hold breath is an instant sway killer. I don't even notice that there is a sway in the game. You guys should play more and learn to play instead of arguing and giving ideas like "make it optional". It is nonsense.

I like the Arma because it require more skill to use weapons/infantry properly. Sometimes you miss the target? Me to! I just don't care.

I agree that sometimes it is hard to counteract the sway, but this makes the game challenging to play. Military isn't about running in the city and free for all mode. If you play judiciously the sway not an issue at all. I die more because of bad decision than because of sway.

Ps. I see many times players running with Lynx and Zafir in CQB area in KotH. These are the wrong tools for CQB.

[-Coulum- 35]

I just don't get it. Especially with hold breath as it is, when you are rested, managing sway is just so simple. And even when fatigued, hold breath allows you shoot well still... and if you can't... don't get fatigued.

I'm just interested to know what exactly people are experiencing that is so bad. Because my personal experience has been very reasonable. On the virtual range I can hit targets, while crouched, with almost 100% consistency, out to 600 metres with an mx and arco, and out to 900 metres with an mx and sos... and with minimal effort, skill or experience ingame. Is it not more than reasonable? Is that not good enough? Is the average soldier able to do better than that? Are other players really struggle to achieve similar results? Have you guys tested your abilities on a virtual range?

I hear many people saying that sway should be less, or fatigue shouldn't make sway so bad, that prone should be rock steady, etc. etc. etc. But really how much more effective do you want the virtual infantry man to be? The whole point of sway is to introduce realistic limitations and abilities to the player. Yet these limitations are already more forgiving and less limiting than real life, and people still want more. Why?

I agree that sometimes it is hard to counteract the sway, but this makes the game challenging to play. Military isn't about running in the city and free for all mode. If you play judiciously the sway not an issue at all. I die more because of bad decision

Yes! And I think that people misunderstand: Being effective isn't determined by how well you can fight the sway. Its how well you can avoid it all together. The sway makes your performance based on the decisions you make, rather than how good you wield a mouse. And that is much more true to real life, thus why it makes more realistic gameplay.

Edited November 12, 2014 by -Coulum-

[Variable 322]

I hear many people saying that sway should be less, or fatigue shouldn't make sway so bad, that prone should be rock steady, etc. etc. etc. But really how much more effective do you want the virtual infantry man to be? The whole point of sway is to introduce realistic limitations and abilities to the player. Yet these limitations are already more forgiving and less limiting than real life, and people still want more. Why?

Because seeing your weapon swimming left and right while prone is not realistic and kills the immersion. It looks artificial and cheap. I'm not against limitations as long as they are realistic, but sometimes, not all the time, sometimes, the sway just throws you off from the experience because it feels too artificial to be convincing.

Also, it kicks in too fast when you are walking in tactical pace, even if you are fully rested. Just some more adjustments and the sway will be great.

[miketim 20]

Yeah weapon sway should really just not be happening prone, really at all, unless.... unless you suddenly aim up higher from prone, like for instance...

If you are prone aiming at a moderately straight level with the ground... sway should be reduced significantly.. pretty much none...

If you suddenly swing your gun 2 feet off the ground and aim it up at some guy in front of you while you are still prone, then I can see some logical sway... you just had to move your elbows probably and maybe even shift your weight or something.

(By sway im speaking about I mean those big sways, not like some tiny little one that is natural for your characters breathing etc)

[-Coulum- 35]

By sway im speaking about I mean those big sways, not like some tiny little one that is natural for your characters breathing etc

And this is where I am confused. Isn't that pretty much already what we have for sway while prone: no big sways, but the natural rythmic movement due the character breathing.

Because seeing your weapon swimming left and right while prone is not realistic and kills the immersion. It looks artificial and cheap. I'm not against limitations as long as they are realistic, but sometimes, not all the time, sometimes, the sway just throws you off from the experience because it feels too artificial to be convincing.

Well I'm not sure how often it swings left to right and if you look at the above vid... I wouldn't call it a total immersion killer... But okay, you don't like it because it looks unimmersive/unrealistic etc. I can't argue with that really. Sway in general can look alot different than how it looks and feels when you are actually holding a gun. But of course you know the reason behind it. Realistic player limitations.

So, if you are going to decrease the sway in prone to make things look more realistic, what will happen to make gameplay result more realistically, when that decrease in sway inevitably makes shooting ingame far easier than in reality?

[Variable 322]

Sway while prone is very noticeable when highly fatigued and/or injured. It looks almost ridiculous then.

So, if you are going to decrease the sway in prone to make things look more realistic, what will happen to make gameplay result more realistically, when that decrease in sway inevitably makes shooting ingame far easier than in reality?

There are other limitations when firing prone that should replace the sway: In real life you have these: 1. Horizontal angle limitation - It's hard to rotate left and right because all your weight is on the ground. 2. Vertical angle limitation - while prone, you can't aim high. By the way, this is one of the primary reasons why it's very hard to defend against attackers that have height advantage. Think of the gameplay advantages of such a limitation! Arma doesn't have it and that's a big shame. 3. More muscle effort is put into orienting your gun while prone because your shoulder and arm muscles are more strained, resulting in a more stiff movement and boresight correction - the exact opposite of sway!

And in any case, just to makes stuff harder without any relevance for reality is not a good way to apply game penalty. So as long as, and even if, the above mentioned real life limitations are not modeled, there shouldn't be any artificial and unrealistic limitation.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Variable

[EDcase 87]

I didn't like sway in the beginning but I'm getting used to it. Might still need some tweaking.

There should be more restriction on movement while prone. A friend of mine I was showing ARMA laughed when he saw a prone soldier spinning around.

Also looking forward to weapon resting in marksman DLC. It better be as good as VTS one.

[Vanz0r 39]

And this is where I am confused. Isn't that pretty much already what we have for sway while prone: no big sways, but the natural rythmic movement due the character breathing.

Do a video illustrating the left right sway, this is the greatest problem area.

[roshnak 41]

Do a video illustrating the left right sway, this is the greatest problem area.

What do you mean? That video is illustrating sway, which the left and right sway is a part of. There aren't any actions, that I know of, which would amplify left and right sway but not up and down sway.

[Defunkt 431]

I just don't get it. Especially with hold breath as it is, when you are rested, managing sway is just so simple. And even when fatigued, hold breath allows you shoot well still... and if you can't... don't get fatigued.

This. The mechanic works well to my mind. I suspect people just want to be able to charge around under fire with a machine-gun and an AT launcher and always remain able to shoot like they're down at the range on a Saturday morning.

[PlacidPaul 11]

1. I just don't like the movement if the sway, left right?? what?

2. I would have no problem with max sway after sprinting.

3. The timing of high amounts of sway seems off, needs more variation, plus higher variation with stances.

I'm all about creating a longer fire fights, but if weapons sway or high dispersion are achieving longer fire fights the player knows it constantly, achieve with AI or player fear.

I like my in game abilities being nerfed, but this just feels wrong, cheap, artificial.

Edited November 13, 2014 by PlacidPaul

[Strick 1]

Hi. Looking for some clarification. Is "sway" the automatic up and down action of your cross-hair? Is "inertia" the automatic left and right action of your cross-hair?

[roshnak 41]

Sway is the up, down, left, and right movement of the weapon when you are aiming (I believe it's actually always swaying, but it's most obvious when aiming down the sights). Inertia is the sight misalignment that occurs when you rotate.

This is sway:

This is inertia:

It's not quite that simple, though. One of the functions of inertia is that it causes a period of increased sway following a rotation, the amplitude of which is based on the rate of turn and the type, weight, and length of the weapon you are holding.

So sway is influenced by fatigue, stance, and inertia. Inertia is influenced by the size and weight of the weapon you are holding.

Edited November 14, 2014 by roshnak

[yxman 90]

1st vid shows exactly the problem, ok 44% fatigued, but this gun is shaking like he is drunk (even worse the scope is swaying around like he is freeholding(without shoulder contact) his gun, this is bullshit.)

[roshnak 41]

60% fatigued, not holding breath, and making no effort to control weapon sway. This video was made intentionally to show a high degree of weapon sway, after someone claimed that it was nauseating.

edit: Check out what big difference hold breath makes

Edited November 14, 2014 by roshnak

[alsanjuro 20]

I for one think that the sway and inertia are unrealistic/authentic especially in all these years of shooting different weapons i have never experienced a drunk mode. Try and move a few feet and look down the sights the weapon bounces as if you have no arms in reality it doesnt bounce cause you have arms and muscles that control that weapon. I use this mod http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=26266 since BIS is not gonna change anything ever. Over the years they have never fixed issues that have been there from the first ARMA. There is no reason to argue cause there will always be people on both sides that like and the ones that hate it. The mechanic for both sway and inertia are over exaggerated. Its funny that even the slightest move causes your weapon to bounce from side to side for a few seconds.

For me i do not wanna fight my weapon for control while the AI can run spin and shoot you in the face with no problems. That mod is fantastic it brings down the sway to degree that feels right for me at least and when you get injured it gets harder to aim which i have no problem with.

[giorgygr 61]

I for one think that the sway and inertia are unrealistic/authentic especially in all these years of shooting different weapons i have never experienced a drunk mode. Try and move a few feet and look down the sights the weapon bounces as if you have no arms in reality it doesnt bounce cause you have arms and muscles that control that weapon. I use this mod http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=26266 since BIS is not gonna change anything ever. Over the years they have never fixed issues that have been there from the first ARMA. There is no reason to argue cause there will always be people on both sides that like and the ones that hate it. The mechanic for both sway and inertia are over exaggerated. Its funny that even the slightest move causes your weapon to bounce from side to side for a few seconds.

For me i do not wanna fight my weapon for control while the AI can run spin and shoot you in the face with no problems. That mod is fantastic it brings down the sway to degree that feels right for me at least and when you get injured it gets harder to aim which i have no problem with.

amen brother :)

[oksman 37]

Reduce Sway, think the Inertia thing can be reduced slightly. I play against Headless client, they insta-headshot. This sway and inertia thing makes it even harder, especially since we fight without magnifying sights

[DancZer 65]

60% fatigued, not holding breath, and making no effort to control weapon sway. This video was made intentionally to show a high degree of weapon sway, after someone claimed that it was nauseating.

edit: Check out what big difference hold breath makes

Exactly.

I think that many players don't even use the hold breath. It was on right mouse button earlier, but BI changed the default binding to left shift. So now we can zoom without holding the breath. But! Because of this, i think lot of players don't even use the hold breath.

Holding breath is crucial while shooting. Use it! Left shift!

[alsanjuro 20]

What is interesting is that there is more and more people that are coming out and are not happy with the state of what sway and inertia and we have no word from the actual devs on this they gave us an update and you just gotta have to deal with it. When people get an update to any game they just have to accept to what is given to them. I can get that BIS is trying to get people to master their weapon but giving us a figure 8 sway and inertia that makes me kind of feel like i am floating and personally it makes me nauseated since i play in first person. I my personal experience with dealing with weapons i have never had my gun do wobbling effect and when your muscles are fatigued they tend to shake because of lack of oxygen and try to hold on to your weapon and its not like what is represented in arma 3. I have people tell me here and other forums that BIS is not trying to be realistic in their weapon handling but more authentic maybe they should check their dictionary for the meaning of the word authentic. I own two authentic japanese swords and when i say authentic it implies that they are real. It seems that some people think that the meanings are different. There was nothing wrong with the weapon mechanics before its not like there was a petition of thousands done to say we need a complete change in way weapons feel and also somehow when you shoot from hip your weapon defy the sway and inertia. Other thing is when you quickly turn with your weapon it doesnt generate that much inertia and sway as when you turn your weapon slowly where you have more control and yet it bounces more.

Why is it when they revealed their go kart dlc and did a whole page on some dev on how amazing of work he did and when they stuff up there is not a zip from them. In every feedback you are suppose to get an answer to it and yet here its been months without a word from BIS. Its obvious to me who ever made this mechanic for sway and inertia has no clue on what a weapon feels and how it handles.

When you have a lmg in your hands you are not gonna be able to aim and move it around as you would with a assault rifle and that is cause they have a different weight and yet arma 3 all weapons can be moved on target the same. For those who love this new system explain to me why is it that my ARCO, MRCO sight jump all over the screen even on the slightest move dont you have you weapon tucked into you shoulder.

I want an answer from BIS in regards to this issue but then they stuffed a few things up or should i say lazy just have a look at the cockpit of mi-48 Kajman its same as arma 2 appache. I do like ARMA 3 if some people might think otherwise i got it when it was in alpha and bought all the DLC's even though people have problem at least for those who dont wanna pay they can still sit in the back and arent blocked from playing unlike other games.

[giorgygr 61]

There are many people that find this....system unrealistic/unnecessary mini-game/ridiculous (my preferable word).

That's why can be optional and forceable by mission maker-both sides will be happy-and i will not wright even again in this thread (Promise!)