Helicopter Feedback (Dev branch)

[jgbtl292 0]

the last updated German version CH-53GA and the marines CH-53K version has or become Fly by Wire too

[Tonci87 163]

Great idea the_Demongod. Seems to be working on my machine as requested ;)

That is awesome! damn Guba you always make the really nice stuff happen.

[b00ce 160]

the last updated German version CH-53GA and the marines CH-53K version has or become Fly by Wire too

Knowing Sikorsky, it probably isn't completely fly by wire; the UH-60M isn't a pure fly by wire system.

[quickvenge 10]

I never had an issue with gun convergence as I tended to wag my tail during strafing runs against infantry anyways. But being you are giving AH-9, and WY-88 drivers some love. How about bumping up DAR damage to make them useful against Ifrit, and Hunters again? I filed a feedback tracker for 18378 its still sitting as new.

The current damage value for a DAR(M_AT) is only hit=80. 40mm Grenades do a damage of 100 now. DAGR is 800.

[gatordev 215]

Knowing Sikorsky, it probably isn't completely fly by wire; the UH-60M isn't a pure fly by wire system.

Not to mention that FBW doesn't mean what I think a lot of people think it means. All it means is that there is no mechanical linkage between the stick (cyclic/collective) and the servos (and all it entails). The helicopter still flies the same, still suffers from the same reactions to physics, and isn't all of a sudden some crazy unique weirdo helicopter. To relate it to something on the ground, my 8 year-old BMW has a "fly-by wire" accelerator, but it still works the same for the end user as a mechanical linkage.

The AFCS (or AFCC) package on the helo is far more important to the "feel" of something than the control method, at least as it relates to the desktop gamer.

[b00ce 160]

I don't trust Fly by Wire for that reason. You don't get the feedback if something is malfunctioning, with mechanical linkages you feel if a servo is buggered or if the actual flight control is damaged.

FCS/FCC scares me, that and Stab Amps dealing with ambient radio interference. I know computers too well to trust them with my life. And yet I do it anyway.

[quickvenge 10]

I'm not expecting a change in control input between fly by wire, and mechanical. It's more of fidelity of the control inputs, and help from the FCS. I need to compensate with the pedals when changing collective for example, but with fly by wire will it auto-trim the tail-rotor for me? Without fly by wire, I expect to be able to do stupid things, cross the chopper's flight envelope, tumble out of control and crash in flames. But with fly by wire the chopper should help me take it to the edge and help me not cross it. It's these subtle differences I want to experience flying a Comanche vs Littlebird for example.

If you think about it it's all fly by wire as it is a simulator. The hardest thing in flying a simulator is the lack of feeling. You don't feel the momentum, vibrations, etc, so you have to compensate for it mostly visually.

[b00ce 160]

The AFCS/Mechanical Mixing unit/SAS moves the controls for you and you can always override those inputs if you need to by moving the stick. The AFCS does not keep you within limitations, it merely helps the pilot account for various forces on the aircraft that are hard to predict like gusts of wind. The AFCS/SAS do a lot to aid the pilot, but they let the pilot fly and they don't work miracles. If a pilot messes up, the computers won't magically recover the aircraft for him; it won't keep him from overspeeding, over torquing, over temping, drooping the rotors, etc. etc. etc.

Source:

I fix and fly on HH-60Ms

[gatordev 215]

I don't trust Fly by Wire for that reason. You don't get the feedback if something is malfunctioning, with mechanical linkages you feel if a servo is buggered or if the actual flight control is damaged.

FCS/FCC scares me, that and Stab Amps dealing with ambient radio interference. I know computers too well to trust them with my life. And yet I do it anyway.

14 years with various versions of the an AFCS/AFCC have proved them to be pretty reliable for me, even when flying around SPY-1 radars (which are well documented to kill digital watches and ESM antennas). Historically, water has been the much bigger enemy. One of the 30 day currency maneuvers I'm under now is to fly around at 150' over the water at 120 knots and by the end of the maneuver, you've pushed one (1) button and end up in a hover at 70' under computer control. The current AFCC is even better than the older AFCS, and it was able to do the above, as well (albeit more sloppy).

I don't think I've ever had a Stab malfunction in flight. On the ground before startup, sure, but not in flight. I can't speak to the Mike or Lima, but I do know our Stabs are different than the legacy Army systems.

As for FBW...I agree. I'd much prefer to feel the linkages. Although it's supposed to cut down on weight, which for some of us more "portly" airframes, can be a plus, but I've never heard an actual number.

[b00ce 160]

The stabilator issue has been pretty much solved, but we still have the "Oh Sh!t" switch on the cyclic just in case. I haven't heard of a stab. malfunction in any recent times. The Mikes don't have Stab amps anymore, its controlled by the FCC now. I don't see how a purely fly by wire system would cut more than 20 lbs on a blackhawk though. The push rods and cables are pretty light weight.

I really hope that we get at least rolling wheels/brakes and shock absorbers at a minimum; wind and IAS being a factor is also a must, ETL shudder would be a nice touch too. The direction of "thrust" changing with stick inputs independently of the acft body is another big issue for me.

I really can't stress enough how important working shocks and rolling wheels/brakes are for aircraft. Please BIS, I beg of thee. I'm like super cereal. Seriously BIS.

[quickvenge 10]

TKOH tries to model ETL. Though it appears as a violent shudder. They probably did that way since you can't feel it, and its their way of showing you it is there. But it also shows up at weird times.

I thought envelope protection was one of the main selling points of Fly by wire. On one of the marketing slides for the Bell 525 states "Carefree Maneuvering and Envelope protection" http://bell525supermedium.net/arc-horizon.

Fly by wire is finally going to let me fly like Chuck Aaron. But maybe I'm expecting too much. :)

[gatordev 215]

I thought envelope protection was one of the main selling points of Fly by wire. On one of the marketing slides for the Bell 525 states "Carefree Maneuvering and Envelope protection" http://bell525supermedium.net/arc-horizon.

It's a marketing slide, not necessarily reality. You really don't want Otto to veto your control vote in a helo like in an airplane. Or if it does (and Bell's marketing is correct), I'm not sure I'd want to fly it, at least as it pertains to control inputs.

Fly by wire is finally going to let me fly like Chuck Aaron. But maybe I'm expecting too much. :)

Except his BO-105 is just boosted. I don't think he even has an AFCS, and if he does, it would probably go degraded on his first maneuver.

[b00ce 160]

TKOH tries to model ETL. Though it appears as a violent shudder. They probably did that way since you can't feel it, and its their way of showing you it is there. But it also shows up at weird times.

Even in the real life in an HH60M with active vibration control, crossing into ETL shakes quite a bit. You just don't "see" it as much because your focus isn't fixed to your head like it is in a computer game.

[quickvenge 10]

Chuck doesn't use an FCS His helicopter is all direct linkage. It's all him.

But I was thinking about our little conversation and how it could be modeled more in game. Instead of having a configuration of whether to run with a simplified flight mode, vs the TKOH one. Why not pretend the simplified flight model is an FCS mode? This akin to auto-hover. It's fly-by-wire enabled(needs a better name), and helps you fly the chopper. Enabling fly-by-wire throws you into the simplified flight model of today, hopefully with a little more agility. Disabling it throws you into the TKOH model. You can toggle it in flight. Maybe the FCS can even be damaged forcing you into the more complex flight model and loosing the ability to auto-hover. That way pilots that don't want the TKOH experience can still experience it, albeit due to gunfire.

In config, you simple configure whether fly-by-wire is on or off by default.

Not sure what they will do with the Blackfoot though and its flight model. I better be able to fly latterly, and backwards at high speed, as well as yaw while at high speed. I also expect the Blackfoot to have auto-trim in all modes unless the FCS is completely destroyed.

Edited May 12, 2014 by quickvenge
Removed some extra "the" and spelling

[b00ce 160]

On helicopters with Mechanical mixing units (Mixer for short), "auto trim" is part of the linkages leading to the main & tail rotors. Mixers are mind bending feats of engineering, taking collective input and giving pedal input from it, as well as accounting for translating tenancy from the increased tail rotor pitch, and what ever other forces come into play due to each helicopter's unique set up. Not all helos have these though.

That being said, FCS/FCC =/= Fly by Wire. All FbW does is remove the mechanical linkages from the aircraft, replacing them with electrical wires. It doesn't assist the pilot with anything, that's the FCS/FCC's job. Additionally, you can have FCS and mechanical linkages at the same time, the FCS takes effect through SAS servos.

FCS = Flight Control System

FCC = Flight Control Computer

SAS = Stability Augmentation System

[faire 10]

Quickvenge: that is such and AWESOME idea! It would prevent player base split, would be engaging for the players, would offer incentive to try to master the more difficult FM. Great idea indeed.

[marcai 1]

I read "Convergence of fixed guns on AH-9 and WY-55" and went to dev branch for the first time in a couple of months. Feels good man.

[codarl 1]

I for one, applaud the need to "Learn" how to use some vehicles.

In RPG's, dangerous magic is only "magicly" unlocked at level 50.

In ArmA, you can jump straight into a MI-48 and start wreaking havoc, without any steep learning, or danger whatsoever.

I hope they stretch this out to other vehicles (tanks?). So the online community will truly get specialists in certain fields.

[gatordev 215]

Chuck doesn't use an FCS His helicopter is all direct linkage. It's all him.

Yes, I'm familiar. I've met the guy when we hosted him at my squadron a couple of years ago and even got to paw around his BO-105 out on the line.

Not sure what they will do with the Blackfoot though and its flight model. I better be able to fly latterly, and backwards at high speed, as well as yaw while at high speed. I also expect the Blackfoot to have auto-trim in all modes unless the FCS is completely destroyed.

Personally, I think you expect a lot from an infantry sim.

On helicopters with Mechanical mixing units (Mixer for short), "auto trim" is part of the linkages leading to the main & tail rotors. Mixers are mind bending feats of engineering, taking collective input and giving pedal input from it, as well as accounting for translating tenancy from the increased tail rotor pitch, and what ever other forces come into play due to each helicopter's unique set up. Not all helos have these though.

Even with mixing, the aircraft reacts to inputs. When your turn off the boost and/or the AFCS/AFCC, you'll see reactions to control movements despite mixing doing it's thing. That said, it must be doing a lot already considering how much it moves around even WITH mixing.

That being said, FCS/FCC =/= Fly by Wire. All FbW does is remove the mechanical linkages from the aircraft, replacing them with electrical wires. It doesn't assist the pilot with anything, that's the FCS/FCC's job. Additionally, you can have FCS and mechanical linkages at the same time, the FCS takes effect through SAS servos.

FCS = Flight Control System

FCC = Flight Control Computer

SAS = Stability Augmentation System

This x100. quickvenge, you hinted at it, but please stop referring to the AFCS/AFCC as "fly-by-wire." It's not the same thing. SAS is part of the AFCC. The two together make it very easy to fly a helicopter, but it's still not FBW. Other than the technology demonstrator that Sikorsky has right now, the only FBW system that I know that's in use in the military helo realm (at least for the U.S.) is the stabilator, which is FBW, but that's such a small part of helicopter control for the end user, it's not worth modeling in-game right now.

[b00ce 160]

Quickvenge: that is such and AWESOME idea! It would prevent player base split, would be engaging for the players, would offer incentive to try to master the more difficult FM. Great idea indeed.

How would it split the player base? And why are people so vehemently opposed to the "player base being split"?

I feel like the proposed idea would only disadvantage pilots who use keyboard and mouse, such as myself. I have a TM Warthog and Pedals

, but ArmA doesn't feel natural and I fly worse with them than with keyboard and mouse. And I've found this to not be a FM issue, rather a controller input issue, no matter what stick I use I have this issue of a retarded (Literally.) input dead-zone/curve. I have to move the stick 50% before I even start to see a change in attitude, no matter my game settings. I want all or nothing when it comes to the actual flight model, the ToH FM is better but it doesn't feel natural. Don't get me wrong, rolling wheels and working shock absorbers are a MUST, but I personally can live without Rotor Lib. Unless BIS fixes the curve issue so I'm not constantly making ham-fisted over corrections like a drunken jackass, I'll stick with the standard FM and keyboard/mouse.

Personally, I think you expect a lot from an infantry sim.

I think he does too.

Even with mixing, the aircraft reacts to inputs. When your turn off the boost and/or the AFCS/AFCC, you'll see reactions to control movements despite mixing doing it's thing. That said, it must be doing a lot already considering how much it moves around even WITH mixing.

That's what I'm saying, the mixer will move the pedals and stick when you pull collective, even without SAS/BOOST and the AFCS running.

[Brisse 78]

Hey b00ce you can adjust the deadzone and input curves in the controller options. I made a huge improvement there with my HOTAS Cougar, simped rudder pedals and trackIR setup. I'm a fan of DCS too :D

The deadzone is set very high default at 10%. I took it down to zero.

[rocksy 11]

how did you combat the 51% throttle issues on the analogue collective?

[KeyCat 131]

I have to move the stick 50% before I even start to see a change in attitude, no matter my game settings. I want all or nothing when it comes to the actual flight model, the ToH FM is better but it doesn't feel natural. Don't get me wrong, rolling wheels and working shock absorbers are a MUST, but I personally can live without Rotor Lib. Unless BIS fixes the curve issue so I'm not constantly making ham-fisted over corrections like a drunken jackass, I'll stick with the standard FM and keyboard/mouse.

I'm always flying with my Cougar HOTAS's and I do not experiencing what you describe above on X/Y and rudder axises, they are perfectly OK after setting curves and DZ. However, the Z-axis (throttle) is indeed a bit wierd in A3 even with tweaks (was the same in A1/A2) but it was improved in TOHK so I hope for the same in Heli DLC.

Since I'm on stable I haven't payed to much attention more that reading that the new FM's will hit dev branch, any ideas of when?

/KC

[the_demongod 31]

I never had an issue with gun convergence as I tended to wag my tail during strafing runs against infantry anyways. But being you are giving AH-9, and WY-88 drivers some love. How about bumping up DAR damage to make them useful against Ifrit, and Hunters again? I filed a feedback tracker for 18378 its still sitting as new.

The current damage value for a DAR(M_AT) is only hit=80. 40mm Grenades do a damage of 100 now. DAGR is 800.

I was just finding it very hard to hit infantry. I really miss the Arma 2 littlebird cannon :/

I believe the convergence has been set to 400 meters though now.

Also I read something in the dev branch changelog that mentioned DAR/DAGR damage, so you may want to go check it out again in case they were fixed

[bigpickle 0]

I was just finding it very hard to hit infantry. I really miss the Arma 2 littlebird cannon :/

I believe the convergence has been set to 400 meters though now.

Also I read something in the dev branch changelog that mentioned DAR/DAGR damage, so you may want to go check it out again in case they were fixed

You can open the pbo's or go config browser to find convergence of weapons