Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

You seriously think that Right Sektor isn't a criminal gang ?

[vilas 477]

they want to make order with mafia,

RS doesn't steal cars, factories, doesn't extort racketeering etc.

for me criminal gang is groups of guys who:

- steal, rob,

- sell drugs, sell illegal things,

- extort racketeering,

west see far-right as criminals cause in west you think differently, but those people simpy want order on streets - streets safe from local mafia boses, do you know story how several people kidnapped and gangraped one girl in Ukraine and soon they were free cause all of them were sons of high ranked officers of militia, or politician sons?

you live in safe west, you do not understand what is that some people are above the law, because their daddy is member of parliament, militia officer,

do you know "blue basket" in Russia ?

"blue basket" are rich people who bough police strobe lights mounted on their luxury cars and they DO NOT CARE about traffic rules, they are rich so they drive 200 km/h in city and even if they will kill someone, they will not even meet small consequence,

RS despite nazi ideology fights also mafia, because infact mafia destroyed Ukraine (corruption level weakened country)

RS is political movement which wants Ukraine to be strong , of course from Polish point of view they are for us bad, cause they praise Bandera who made ethnic cleansing on us in 40s,

problem is other,

for Ukrainian local people safe streets aren't guaranteed by government, but by far right militants - it is problem of Ukraine

it is problem that rich mafia is above any laws,

they can kidnap beautiful girl from street to rape her and no policeman will dare to touch them, no judge will sentence them,

they can steal whole factories, making from previously state owned power plant "their property, their private company",

this is something what you cannot even imagine living on west, but for example in Russia in Yeltsin time (90s) groups of armed bandits even dare to steal car factory , famous Russian cars Lada - factory of Lada also had racketing accidents, when group of dozen guys with AKMS in hands came to director of factory "give us profit from last month of we will shoot people here"

such things were happening in Russia in Yeltsin time, such things happen in Ukraine, but in Ukraine those guys simply come and say "this factory is now our"

how do you think oligarch get their huuuuuuuuuuuuuge money ?

oligarchs own 80% of all property in Ukraine, oligarchs is maybe dozen families,

those people have money estimated for bilions of dollars in country where people earn 200 dollars ,

on some regions of Ukraine you do not have law , like in Africa, i know what i say cause wife of my neigbor is Ukrainian girl, she escaped from such area and she met my neigbor and married him ,

things she say about Ukraine is like movies about wild west,

businesman which i know also had some deals on Ukrainian market - he says that there were areas where you had to hire bulletproof car because mafia was there so strong hunting for rich businesmen from abroad,

they may be evil for us here in Poland due to their ideology, but from point of view of local Ukrainians ? who cares about locas?

elites ? oligarch who has bilion dollars on bank account doesn't care about person who earns 200 USD working like slave in his factory

west ? doing business with Russia trying to do business despite sanctions

who cares about usual Ukrainian ?

who want to destroy mafia in Ukraine ? who want destroy oligarchs ?

this is problem of those people, they do not care about xenophobia of RS, they care to have anything to eat and walk street safely

and they work for 200 USD cause their oligarchs steal all profits, for the same reasons Russians love Putin,

he stopped stealing that much like it used to be stolen by small group of oligarchs (he steals too it seems, but not that much like them, and he limited number of thefts of profits so it shown significant salary raise in many regions of Russia where people earn like in Poland but they have smaller costs/prices)

Ukraine destroyed by corruption and oligarchs can face faith of county-countries from early middleages,

Ukrainians see that nothing changed for better, rather for worse + vision of EU which they do not accept, because the more far to east, the more "politicall correcntess" is not welcome,

Maidan was against corruption and oligarchy, not for joining EU like some newspapers on west said,

Maidan was anti-corruption movement of all political powers in Ukraine including those who are far right,

Euro-Maidan is not later Maidan

those people want to simply live on safe streets, have bigger income, have social care etc. problem is that none of their mainstream parties want to do it,

far right is of course minority but they fight mafia much more than police - this is something which should not be, because in civilized countries police should do and has to do such jobs, problem of Ukraine is that police doesn't, police secures local politician who is ... oligarch puppet and mafia member

Edited July 15, 2015 by vilas

[beastcat 14]

You seriously think that Right Sektor isn't a criminal gang ?

Nationalism isn't really a crime.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Nationalism isn't really a crime.

It is when people are taking guns and don't respect the law. They just want to be the most powerful gang. NSDAP did the same at its time.

Vilas, far right nationalism will lead you nowhere, as a Pole you should know that better than anybody else.

Edited July 15, 2015 by ProfTournesol

[vilas 477]

Nationalism isn't really a crime.

in politically correct left west it soon will be crime, in some western countries there were ideas to penalize if you will say you are against gay pride parade ,

political correctness from west is the same when it comes to censoring,

thats why people from west do not understand things that for us Slavs are normal,

for us crime is when someone rob other person (because property is saint and for many of us you can kill for property like in USA thinking, Slavic thinking is closer to US-Republicans thinking than to western left-wing thinking , we are closer in minds to USA than to EU ;) ) for them crime is when someone doesn't want gay parade in his city,

for us crime is robbery, for them killing robber which was not armed,

things they call nationalism- we call "taking care about our people" because their government DO CARE about them, so they do not understand that we live in countries which governments do opposite,

because all German, French, British etc. governments support things good and profitable for local markets,

first they had colonies,

than they had corporations, banks - which take income from Slavic countries and transfer income to west (data given in European topic where i linked such international economical researches)

we had no colonies, we had kings which treated us badly (like Black people in USA in XIXc , we had here slavery till 1860s , in USA slavery was for Black, in slavic kingdoms for "farmers")

we were always poor,

and now our governments are puppets of their governments,

thats why they do not understand, because they live in rich societies and all benefits, social care, safety etc. is from their government

we live in opposite situation,

it is like discussion about colors between 2 blinds, or discussion about music between 2 def,

we have to fight for things they have from birth

and our "elites" are simply corrupted puppets of their corporations and banks,

and their wealth comes also from our area (money tranfers of banks, supermarkets which do not pay taxes here and transfer profits to their countries)

more over , west see "nationalim" in Slavic country

but they fail to see their own nationalism - because how other way you can call:

- transfer of money from one area to other (supermarkets, banks),

- deals with Russia despite sanctions - local Italian, German, French companies selling products to Russia to give jobs in Italy, Germany , France - this is nationalism in economy in purest form,

- buying for bribes our industry in 1990, destroying our industry, selling here their products to make them have jobs in west ? this is nationalism

but not on banners but in economy

It is when people are taking guns and don't respect the law.

if law allow rich person to rape and you see rape, do you respect such law ?

or moral law is above (moral coming from commandments "thou shall not steal" etc? )

what if law says "stealing is allowed" ? what if law says "your house belong to me, i sell it for 1 cent, now you have to pay rent to new owner" ?

what if law doesn't exist but law is only theoretical but any rich person is above law ?

what if police is playing only bodyguard of local rich person ?

and if we talk about law, what about sharia law ? "kill gay when you spot" ? ;) and if people would fight against such law in Arab state than so what? maybe stupid example not for Ukrainian area, but for other world area it would fit,

policeman in west is guy who secures taxpayer, right?

well in Ukraine not necessarily , sometimes they play private security role for local oligarch, who in fact is mafia

---------- Post added at 12:15 ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 ----------

Vilas, far right nationalism will lead you nowhere, as a Pole you should know that better than anybody else.

and thats why i say that Ukraine has deep problem - problem that NOONE cares about usual Ukrainian person, noone,

neither western financial elites ("lets finish sanctions, Russian client awaits for products"), neither Ukrainian elites ("they must work for 200 dollars, cause i need 100 new Ferraris to buy this month"), nor EU ("lets bring them to EU, they will be cheapest labor, and their industry to buy and than they will pay us for their water, electricity, food etc. than we gonna balance our debt here in DE/UK/F ")

indeed i agree FOREIGN nationalism is dangerous for us , but we need our own to make your supermarkets pay tax here because anytime i do shopping in French market (i can do in British or German) part of profit goes to France and alows French worker to earn better in France ;)

but when i talk about Ukraine, than i try to see Ukrainian perspective too, not only Polish one , for me Bandera supporters can get bullet in head for crimes from 40s, but goal of Pole in Poland is different than goal of Ukrainian in Ukraine, cause each person has his profit and goal as first,

local shops in my neiborhood bankrupted, i can do shoping either in Carrefour, or Auchan or Lidl or Tesco or Geronimo Martens (Portuguese) because all of them was free from taxes in early 90s

when i have to take bank credit in Credit Agricole, than part of profit not met Polish budget but local French one, so worker in Carrefour in France is happy because he has better social cause money were transfered from my market to your market

i also believe that Slavic nations should unite more and create our own industry from scratch competitive on equal rights (taxation) to western (we need jobs) because we are here like in new kind of colonies since 2 decades

thats why western elites should focus on fight against corruption in post commie countries even if it means decrease profits of western corporations, banks, supermarkets

can they do it ?

i doubt

Edited July 15, 2015 by vilas

[beastcat 14]

It is when people are taking guns and don't respect the law. They just want to be the most powerful gang. NSDAP did the same at its time.

I'm not entirely sure, but if they are part of the national guard its kinda their job to take guns, so they are kinda within the law. And with the stuff at Mukachevo they were fighting criminals, until it turned out that the criminals actually belong to government.

in politically correct left west it soon will be crime, in some western countries there were ideas to penalize if you will say you are against gay pride parade ,

political correctness from west is the same when it comes to censoring,

thats why people from west do not understand things that for us Slavs are normal,

for us crime is when someone rob other person (because property is saint and for many of us you can kill for property like in USA thinking, Slavic thinking is closer to US-Republicans thinking than to western left-wing thinking , we are closer in minds to USA than to EU ;) ) for them crime is when someone doesn't want gay parade in his city,

for us crime is robbery, for them killing robber which was not armed,

things they call nationalism- we call "taking care about our people" because their government DO CARE about them, so they do not understand that we live in countries which governments do opposite,

because all German, French, British etc. governments support things good and profitable for local markets,

first they had colonies,

than they had corporations, banks - which take income from Slavic countries and transfer income to west (data given in European topic where i linked such international economical researches)

we had no colonies, we had kings which treated us badly (like Black people in USA in XIXc , we had here slavery till 1860s , in USA slavery was for Black, in slavic kingdoms for "farmers")

we were always poor,

and now our governments are puppets of their governments,

thats why they do not understand, because they live in rich societies and all benefits, social care, safety etc. is from their government

we live in opposite situation,

it is like discussion about colors between 2 blinds, or discussion about music between 2 def,

we have to fight for things they have from birth

and our "elites" are simply corrupted puppets of their corporations and banks,

and their wealth comes also from our area (money tranfers of banks, supermarkets which do not pay taxes here and transfer profits to their countries)

more over , west see "nationalim" in Slavic country

but they fail to see their own nationalism - because how other way you can call:

- transfer of money from one area to other (supermarkets, banks),

- deals with Russia despite sanctions - local Italian, German, French companies selling products to Russia to give jobs in Italy, Germany , France - this is nationalism in economy in purest form,

- buying for bribes our industry in 1990, destroying our industry, selling here their products to make them have jobs in west ? this is nationalism

but not on banners but in economy

I agree with most of what you are saying, but I am kinda guilty of living in a rich society with all benefits at the moment. :)

As for nationalism being a crime, I always admired the Germans for having the guts to allow the NPD instead of stepping on freedom, but there's always the swastika being pretty much banned.

One thing I always dislike though is calling all countries puppets of the western banks. Yes, the governments are often corrupted, but they are criminals for their own benefit. What was really a puppet government was the old Ukrainian government. Most had extremely close ties to Russia with it even reaching as far as with Medvedchuk, who is still around. The godfather of his daughter is Vladimir Putin. The problem now is that although the old government fled to Russia, you still have these politicians around. And they are not only more loyal to Russia, but they are also highly involved with local criminals and the Mafia.

With that out of they way, most people are still criminal for their own benefit, and will go where they see the most money. If for them its suddenly more beneficial to go with the EU for example, they will ditch Russia. But in my opinion that's not really what constitutes a puppet. The master chooses the puppet, not the other way around.

And money leaving the country is also because people do it for their own benefit. Banks don't force Russian oligarchs for example to transfer their money to the west. The oligarchs do it to keep their money safe, tax free and invisible for the russian economy.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the fault lies within the corrupt officials and criminals within the country, not the outside.

Edited July 15, 2015 by beastcat

[Rydygier 1317]

Meanwhile Intermarium idea strikes back.

[beastcat 14]

Latest from OSCE Special Monitoring Mission (SMM) to Ukraine based on information received as of 19:30hrs, 14 July

Despite claims by all sides that heavy weapons had been withdrawn, the SMM continued to observe heavy weapons in areas proscribed by the Minsk arrangements: in government-controlled areas, a twin-barrelled anti-aircraft gun (ZSU-23-2), four multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS) (BM-21), four main battle tanks (MBT) (T-64), four MLRS (BM-21), four MBTs (T-64) and five military trucks transporting various types of ammunition. In “LPRâ€-controlled areas, at two different locations the SMM noted in total 36 MBTs (T-64).

In addition, SMM unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) continued to observe concentrations of military hardware in and around “DPRâ€-controlled Komsomolske (49km south of Donetsk), noting five MBTs, 43 armoured personnel carriers and 100 military-type trucks. Furthermore, in “DPRâ€-controlled areas the UAVs spotted the following: in Bezimene (13km east of Mariupol) three MBTs, in Novolaspa (48km south of Donetsk) one MBT, in Bila Kamyanka (54km south of Donetsk) one MBT and one self-propelled howitzer and in Yakovlivka (7km east of Donetsk) three artillery pieces. In government-controlled areas the UAVs spotted three MBTs in Starohnativka (52km south of Donetsk) and one MBT near Berezove (30km south-west of Donetsk). While monitoring DPR-controlled territory east and north-east of Mariupol

[aleksadragutin 9]

Meanwhile Intermarium idea strikes back.

It can only live as an idea, nothing more. Same as Pan-Slavism.

[oxmox 73]

Ukraine crisis a threat to Canada's security, Arseniy Yatsenyuk says

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk says support for his country is as much about Canada's security

as it is Ukraine's, urging support from NDP Leader Tom Mulcair and Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau for Prime Minister Stephen Harper's strong stance against Russia.

"My message to everyone in Canada: look, it's not just about Ukraine, it's about all of us. It's about Canadian security too," Yatsenyuk said.

Yatsenyuk also denied there are Chechens fighting on the side of Ukraine, despite international media reports to the contrary

(They are only tourists.......;))

"You know, it's not just about Ukraine. This is not the Ukrainian case study. This is the global challenge. And Ukraine is just the battlefield. A battlefield for the bright future and the battlefield against the Russian-led aggression. We are fighting against Russians and we protect European borders. Russia poses a threat to Canada too, and not only to Canada but to NATO allies.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukraine-crisis-a-threat-to-canada-s-security-arseniy-yatsenyuk-says-1.3151688

More Autonomy for East-Ukraine ?

Ukraine Parliament Sends Draft Constitutional Changes To Court

According to the draft amendments, "a special law will regulate peculiarities of local self-government†in the districts, which are being held by Russian-backed separatists in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Poroshenko submitted the bill to parliament on July 15 after coming under pressure from Western leaders to grant the areas some powers of self-rule as part of the cease-fire deal agreed in Minsk in February.

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-poroshenko-offers-autonomy-donbass-constitutional-change/27130239.html?

Did wonder already if there would be any constitutional action by Kiev about the East Ukraine which was signed in the Minsk Agreement...........

Edited July 16, 2015 by oxmox

[srbknight 925]

Ukraine crisis a threat to Canada's security, Arseniy Yatsenyuk says

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk says support for his country is as much about Canada's security

as it is Ukraine's, urging support from NDP Leader Tom Mulcair and Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau for Prime Minister Stephen Harper's strong stance against Russia.

"My message to everyone in Canada: look, it's not just about Ukraine, it's about all of us. It's about Canadian security too," Yatsenyuk said.

Yatsenyuk also denied there are Chechens fighting on the side of Ukraine, despite international media reports to the contrary

(They are only tourists.......;))

"You know, it's not just about Ukraine. This is not the Ukrainian case study. This is the global challenge. And Ukraine is just the battlefield. A battlefield for the bright future and the battlefield against the Russian-led aggression. We are fighting against Russians and we protect European borders. Russia poses a threat to Canada too, and not only to Canada but to NATO allies.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukraine-crisis-a-threat-to-canada-s-security-arseniy-yatsenyuk-says-1.3151688

More Autonomy for East-Ukraine ?

Ukraine Parliament Sends Draft Constitutional Changes To Court

According to the draft amendments, "a special law will regulate peculiarities of local self-government†in the districts, which are being held by Russian-backed separatists in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Poroshenko submitted the bill to parliament on July 15 after coming under pressure from Western leaders to grant the areas some powers of self-rule as part of the cease-fire deal agreed in Minsk in February.

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-poroshenko-offers-autonomy-donbass-constitutional-change/27130239.html?

Did wonder already if there would be any constitutional action by Kiev about the East Ukraine which was signed in the Minsk Agreement...........

for sure it is if they get right sector than you will have a lot of problems !

[mistyronin 1181]

(IB Times) Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17: Dutch investigators claim pro-Russian militants shot down passenger plane

Nearly a year after Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 crashed in east Ukraine, a new report from Dutch investigators alleges it was shot from the sky by pro-Russian militants, according to sources close to the investigation.

The report by the Dutch Safety Board into the incident has been distributed for review to Boeing and the US National Transportation Safety Board, but not yet publicly released, sources told CNN.

The investigation is being conducted by Dutch experts as the majority of the 298 people killed on the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur were Dutch citizens.

It identifies the type of missile used to shoot down the plane, and alleges that it was fired from territory controlled by pro-Russian militants.

(National Post) One year on, MH17 evidence against Russian-backed separatists appears overwhelming

But a wealth of evidence has already emerged — photographs and video, satellite analysis, and witness testimony gathered by multiple investigators and media organizations, including the Daily Telegraph — that suggests that Russian-backed separatists fired a Buk SA-11 missile and brought down MH17.

(The Tribune) MH17 families sue Russia-backed Ukrainian rebels for $900m

Relatives of MH17 crash victims have filed a nearly $900 million suit against a one-time leader of Russia-backed Ukranian insurgents for shooting down the jet over the rebel-held east of the country last year.

A writ filed in Chicago on Wednesday claimed that Igor Strelkov, a Russian also known as Igor Girkin, was acting with the “actual or apparent†authority of President Vladimir Putin’s government when the Malaysia Airlines jet was blown out of the sky, killing all 298 people on board.

[srbknight 925]

(IB Times) Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17: Dutch investigators claim pro-Russian militants shot down passenger plane

(National Post) One year on, MH17 evidence against Russian-backed separatists appears overwhelming

(The Tribune) MH17 families sue Russia-backed Ukrainian rebels for $900m

So proven news for sure !

[St. Jimmy 272]

Well my guess is the rebels shot it down by accident. They weren't well trained then, they've been shooting down some aircrafts already in that day and there was also that Ukrainian plane near the MH-17. Either way no matter who shot it down, it's crazy that civilian planes were even flying through that space.

[beastcat 14]

Its been a while since we have seen a video from the situation on the ground.

[aleksadragutin 9]

(IB Times) Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17: Dutch investigators claim pro-Russian militants shot down passenger plane

(National Post) One year on, MH17 evidence against Russian-backed separatists appears overwhelming

(The Tribune) MH17 families sue Russia-backed Ukrainian rebels for $900m

Why did they sue the rebels, and not the airline/air control. Seems like it would be more likely for them to get their money if they did that instead.

[mistyronin 1181]

Why did they sue the rebels, and not the airline/air control. Seems like it would be more likely for them to get their money if they did that instead.

Uhm, well I'm not sure in the plane case (I have never hired a insurance for a plane). But in almost any other vehicle, the war & terrorist attacks clean the private companies from all responsibility.

In addition the air-space was open to commercial traffic, so technically the company is not liable in any degree.

Only Govs are responsible in that cases, in this specific case the most likely culprit, the Pro-Russian rebels.

[ProfTournesol 956]

The main responsability lies on the Russian governement that delivered the missile system to wannabe amateur soldiers. That's why they go on embarrasing themselves with ridiculous scenarios.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Uhm, well I'm not sure in the plane case (I have never hired a insurance for a plane). But in almost any other vehicle, the war & terrorist attacks clean the private companies from all responsibility.

In addition the air-space was open to commercial traffic, so technically the company is not liable in any degree.

Only Govs are responsible in that cases, in this specific case the most likely culprit, the Pro-Russian rebels.

Well this wasn't a terror attack since the aim was not to terrorize. And use of weapons is common in a war zone. You can't really blame the rebels for not having proper equipment, and expecting money from a country you do not recognize as existent is ridiculous. Suing Russia for supplying the weapon will not get them anywhere either, cause nobody will risk war or money loss over one plane. Their best bet is to sue the Ukraine for not closing the airspace.

---------- Post added at 13:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:05 ----------

The main responsability lies on the Russian governement that delivered the missile system to wannabe amateur soldiers. That's why they go on embarrasing themselves with ridiculous scenarios.

You could also look at it like this. Russia recognized DPR/LPR, so supplying could be seen as a legit exchange (whether you see it as such is besides the point), same as US, UK and Germany supplying Ukraine. Besides, suing Russia is a lost cause in the start.

[beastcat 14]

http://youtu.be/AlgqQaKna84

http://youtu.be/gTWSxOkzadI

Edited July 18, 2015 by beastcat

[mistyronin 1181]

(Al Jazeera) Ukraine rebels claim pulling back smaller weapons

Pro-Russian fighters in eastern Ukraine have claimed to have begun pulling back military vehicles with small-caliber weapons from most of the front-lines.

The fighters said on Sunday that tanks and armored vehicles with weapons under 100mm would be pulled back 3km in Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Andrei Taran, a Ukrainian army major-general, dismissed the announcement as deceptive, the Associated Press news agency said.

The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), which is monitoring the ceasefire, has said neither of the rival sides has fully withdrawn even heavy artillery as required by the peace deal - signed in February.

[Maxzy 12]

The main responsability lies on the Russian governement that delivered the missile system to wannabe amateur soldiers.

It was ukrainian system, ukrainian missile and ukrainian soldiers, who fired that missile (or it was another kind of missile - the kind that was fired from a ukrainian jet.). And goddamned stupid ukrainian government and/or ukrainian air-traffic controller who let commercial flight into their space while there was a war going on.

[ProfTournesol 956]

It was ukrainian system, ukrainian missile and ukrainian soldiers, who fired that missile (or it was another kind of missile - the kind that was fired from a ukrainian jet.).

Nobody believe this anymore, even the pro Putin Russians i know.

[mistyronin 1181]

It was ukrainian system, ukrainian missile and ukrainian soldiers, who fired that missile (or it was another kind of missile - the kind that was fired from a ukrainian jet.).

According to who? Because the international investigators precisely point in the opposite direction.

Even the families sued the Pro-Russian rulers:

(The Tribune) MH17 families sue Russia-backed Ukrainian rebels for $900m

And goddamned stupid ukrainian government and/or ukrainian air-traffic controller who let commercial flight into their space while there was a war going on.

As surprising as it may sound, same happened during most of the Iraq war, Syria or Afghanistan (to say a few).

And it's because civilian air traffic flies above 9,000 meters; and the insurgent / terrorist / guerrillas in those wars do not have fighter jets and are not supposed to have complex anti-aircraft systems.

Obviously with the Pro-Russians in Ukraine the situation was different.

[oxmox 73]

It was ukrainian system, ukrainian missile and ukrainian soldiers, who fired that missile (or it was another kind of missile - the kind that was fired from a ukrainian jet.).

There is no proof for this....

But a critical news report got released by the investigative Journalist Robert Parry; Consortiumnews:

The main critical point is the lack of intelligence informations by the US - there is silence. And this is really a strong point.

Wheras he overacts a bit for my taste with the Tonkin case, since there is in both ways not sure evidence yet about the MH17 case.

MH-17 Mystery: A New Tonkin Gulf Case?

Yet, the U.S. mainstream media remains stunningly disinterested in the “dog-not-barking†question of why the U.S. intelligence community has been so quiet about its MH-17 analysis since it released a sketchy report relying mostly on “social media†on July 22, 2014, just five days after the shoot-down.

A source briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that the reason for the intelligence community’s silence is that more definitive analysis pointed to a rogue Ukrainian operation implicating one of the pro-regime oligarchs.

The source said that if this U.S. analysis were to see the light of day, the Ukrainian “narrative†that has supplied the international pressure on Russia would collapse. In other words, the Obama administration is giving a higher priority to keeping Putin on the defensive than to bringing the MH-17 killers to justice.

Two days later, on July 22, the Director of National Intelligence authorized the release of a brief report essentially repeating Kerry’s allegations. The DNI’s report also cited “social media†as implicating the ethnic Russian rebels, but the report stopped short of claiming that the Russians gave the rebels the sophisticated Buk (or SA-11) surface-to-air missile that the report indicated was used to bring down the plane.

Over the past 11 months, the DNI’s office has offered no updates on the initial assessment, with a DNI spokeswoman even making the absurd claim that U.S. intelligence has made no refinements of its understanding about the tragedy since July 22, 2014.

Last October, Der Spiegel reported that the German intelligence service, the BND, also had concluded that Russia was not the source of the missile battery – that it had been captured from a Ukrainian military base – but the BND still blamed the rebels for firing it. The BND also concluded that photos supplied by the Ukrainian government about the MH-17 tragedy “have been manipulated,†Der Spiegel reported.

If what I’ve been told is true, the reason for this silence would likely be that a reversal of the initial rush to judgment would be both embarrassing for the Obama administration and detrimental to an “information warfare†strategy designed to keep the Russians on the defensive.

quiete long article, more...

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/17/mh-17-mystery-a-new-tonkin-gulf-case/

Edited July 20, 2015 by oxmox