Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

First I dislike your false accusations and find them a really poor and weak argument.

luxury products corporations are DIFFERENT and using them as example is MANIPULATION

Uhm, so according to you, Harley-Davidson and Apple products are luxury items? :confused:

Then me, and all my friends and family must be rich then. Because in my hometown everyone has or the latest iPhone or a Samsung Galaxy, and we even have our own H-D official shop of how many Harleys are sold (and it's a little town of 100,000 inhabitants).

Luxury items are Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Hugo Boss, Rolex, Breitling, Lamborghini, Bvlgari, Cartier etc.

Harley-Davidson, Apple, Samsung and so on are common consumer products.

do not compare McDonald to banks or supermarkets cause IT IS MANIPULATION

Uhm, you talked about western corporations, Mc Donalds is a western corporation.

Here its what you said.

because western banks, corporations always needed, supported, created corruptions in countries which they see as target area for selling their products

But ok, let's see what you were referring exactly:

supermarkets like Carrefour, Lidl, Kaufland, Auchan

Carrefour. has most of its stores in Europe (France, Spain, Italy and Belgium).

Lidl has only stores in Europe, mainly in Germany and France (also a good amount in Spain, Italy, Netherlands and Poland).

Media Markt has only stores in Europe and Turkey (most of them in Germany and Italy).

Ikea has stores around the World, but the countries were most of their stores are are Germany, U.S.A, France, Italy, Sweden and Spain.

Auchan has most of its stores in China, France, Spain and Italy.

About Kaufland, I have never heard about it but seems that most of its stores are in Germany (mainly in Northern Germany), and the rest in the German neighbors.

- - -

So Germany, France, Italy and Spain are supposed to be corrupt or poor countries?

Edited July 24, 2015 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

Uhm, so according to you Harley-Davidson and Apple products are luxury items?

of course, for us very luxury products, we earn 500 Euro per month, some of us earn 400 Euro or less

all shops around me are:

Lidl, Carrefour (bought a lot of local shops called Carefour-Express, i have 2 Carrefour Express near my house, 2 Carrefour Express near my job), Jeromino Martens, Auchan, Ikea, Media Markt, Leroy-Merlin

those are shops around me

and energy to my home goes on wires which belong to German RWE

Harley-Davidson, Apple, Samsung and so on are common consumer products.

buahahahaha, mobile costs more than monthly salary of many people

http://www.cyfrowe.pl/smartfony-tablety/smartfon-apple-iphone-6-zloty-16gb.html?gclid=CJe62OG688YCFeQSwwodOZYOaQ

i earned in previous job 1850 PLN to hand, later i law office i earn 2300 PLN, this mobile cost 3100 PLN, a friend of mine works for 1500 PLN to hand, for such mobile he has to work over 2 months without eating or paying rent

you are manipulating again

So Germany, France, Italy and Spain are supposed to be corrupt or poor countries?

do they pay taxes there ?

or once again you use manipulation and eristic to force leftist international government idea ?

do those shops pay there TAXES the same or bigger than local native business ?

Edited July 24, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

of course, for us very luxury products, we earn 500 Euro per month, some of us earn 400 Euro or less

all shops around me are:

Lidl, Carrefour (bought a lot of local shops called Carefour-Express, i have 2 Carrefour Express near my house, 2 Carrefour Express near my job), Jeromino Martens, Auchan, Ikea, Media Markt, Leroy-Merlin

So, help me to understand you.

You consider that even tho those companies have by far most of their stores in the First World, they have as their main target corrupt and poor countries of the Third World?

Something fails in your logic. If we check for example in the transparency index, you'll see that most Western Corporations and banks have stores in precisely the less corrupted and richer countries.

do they pay taxes there ?

or once again you use manipulation and eristic to force leftist international government idea ?

do those shops pay there TAXES the same or bigger than local native business ?

Yes they pay taxes there. Or in certain cases they try to pay the taxes through other EU countries, mainly Ireland (which is legal according to the EU legislation).

And no, Ireland is not known for being a poor or corrupt country. But low taxes.

[vilas 477]

where they pay taxes ?

[mistyronin 1181]

where they pay taxes ?

Please read my messages entirely. I answered above :)

[vilas 477]

Yes they pay taxes there.

aaaaaaaaaa

and this shows what government is proper and what not

cause from my country every year 17 bilions of euro of net profits are transfered abroad, 420 EU per capita , monthly salary of average Pole to hand (after taxation, net, not gros)

Or in certain cases they try to pay the taxes through other EU countries

and this is f* up

---------- Post added at 09:37 ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 ----------

Something fails in your logic. If we check for example in the transparency index, you'll see that most Western Corporations and banks have stores in precisely the less corrupted and richer countries.

countries which had colonies too

colonies were rich countries abusing poor countries not letting them to grow strong

[mistyronin 1181]

colonies were rich countries abusing poor countries not letting them to grow strong

So, we have already seen that Western Corporations mainly invest in Western countries and banks and other non-corrupt and rich markets mostly.

In fact, poor countries like Lithuania, Croatia, etc. try to attract foreign investments by granting them lower taxes. Because if Western companies build factories in Lithuania for instance, they will hire unemployed Lithuanians and increase the Lithuanian average richness.

A clear example is the fact that a lot of European big companies sent a good amount of their factories to China, made China richer and more powerful and Europe poorer and less powerful (that's why most stuff you can find at home is: Made in China).

In the only case you can apply your logic is in raw materials where mainly corporations from UK & France (also US and China) are taking advantage of corrupt uneducated governments and populations of Third World countries.

In Ukraine the gov can be corrupt but their population is not uneducated.

[vilas 477]

again not true

transfer of profits makes countries poor, forcing tax can fix economy of many countries which now are poor , because those corporations who sell energy, supermarkets, house products NEED markets,

we do not need RWE from Germany to take percent for electricity sent from power plant to my house, but in fact we have RWE keeping wires in my city,

we do not need to buy milk, bread in Carrefours, Lidls etc. they need us , there would be no unemployment because OUR local shops would NOT bankrupt and people working in those shops would not been unemployed or forced to wear pampers or like today Ukrainians working there ,

i see no reason why wires transferring energy from power plant into my bulb should not been Polish,

i was buying bread, ham, milk, water in Polish shop for 25 years before it turned to be owned by Carrefour Express or Jehronimo Martens

unemployment was created because of hostile-takeovers, because big market need less people than few small shops, because hostile-owned company was destroyed to produce abroad and previous company is now warehouse for abroad production before sending to foreign shop ,

in case of hostile-takeover companies all people who work in production were fired , when production was cut than such companies only are logistic-centers to distribute products coming on trucks from abroad,

i do not know what Lithuania was producing, but Poland was big producer and our unemployment is due to foreign corporations and our poverty is due to this , we had big industry, not only Mi-2, T-72, rifles, but shirts (whole cotton industry), velvet, t-shirts, washing machines, vacum cleaners, machines (cars, engineering , civil engineering), trams, trucks, trains, chemistry (soap, shampoo near my house), optics for weapons and medicine (microscopes produced by my neighbor mother), telecomunication (my uncle was there working whole life making telephone exchanges, when Siemens bought ZWUT, than Siemens took all production line to Germany as my uncle says),

when foreign corporations took it, they destroyed it , to cut production here ONLY to save their jobs abroad and avoid unemployment in west location,

maybe Lithuania had no production in USSR, Poland had for whole Warsaw Pact

and Harley Davidson is not luxury ? hahaha

http://www.arrow-harley-davidson.pl/images/pricelists/MY15_5_Arrow.pdf

prices

Road King costs 2 years of salary in ministry , 3 years of work as shop assistant ,

for such Harley we can buy 10 cars like 2002-year VW Passat (cause we usually buy 10-15 years old cars )

http://olx.pl/oferty/q-passat-2002/

or we buy Skoda Fabia like cars

compare it with average salary like 500 Euro to hand after taxation, 350 Euro for shop assistant, 600 for clerk in Ministry (i know best such salaries cause lots of my friends work in public sector),

Major of Army has 1200 Euro before taxation giving ca 800 to hand, Colonel has 1700 Euro before taxation giving ca 1000 Euro to hand or over 1000 Euro to hand,

friend of my working in shop as shop assistant has 350 Euro to hand sometimes 400 Euro ,

Edited July 24, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Uhm. I think I see what's the issue in our debate. I'm talking about Ukraine and the World situation. You are talking only and exclusively about Poland. That you claim that is the colony of the West and the victim of all possible existing (and maybe some non existing) sins.

I'm sorry but the situation in Poland is not interesting at all for me. If it were to be, I'd open a Poland General thread and talk there.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Uhm. I think I see what's the issue in our debate. I'm talking about Ukraine and the World situation. You are talking only and exclusively about Poland. That you claim that is the colony of the West and the victim of all possible existing (and maybe some non existing) sins.

I'm sorry but the situation in Poland is not interesting at all for me. If it were to be, I'd open a Poland General thread and talk there.

Actualy, what vilas is saying applies to Serbia too. And the most of the countries where oligarchs rule.

[ProfTournesol 956]

(BBC) The right-wing group threatening to overthrow Ukraine's government

Interesting video about Right Sector.

[mistyronin 1181]

Actualy, what vilas is saying applies to Serbia too. And the most of the countries where oligarchs rule.

I don't think that you can't really compare the economic, cultural and geo-strategical position of Ukraine with Poland and Serbia. They are quite different countries and cultures. In the same way that you can't compare them to Russia.

Besides I already listed where those Western Companies had most of their stores, and its not in Poland nor in Serbia (nor Ukraine of course).

- - -

(The Guardian) 'We like partisan warfare.' Chechens fighting in Ukraine – on both sides

In the long-drawn-out struggle for Ukraine, it may be surprising to know that Chechen fighters in their hundreds have joined the battle.

It’s even more surprising to learn that they have been fighting on both sides.

The legacy of the two wars with Russia in the 1990s means there is no shortage of people from the Caucasus republic eager to take up arms against the enemy again.

But Chechen forces loyal to strongman leader Ramzan Kadyrov are also fighting alongside pro-Russian forces in eastern Ukraine.

Interesting how Chechens have ended in both sides in Ukraine, Iraq, Syria, IS, etc.

The eventual solution to Russia’s Chechnya problem – placing Kadyrov in charge, showering him with cash to renovate the republic, and letting him rule with impunity – is seen by the Kremlin as a success and even as a blueprint for a potential solution for east Ukraine.

Russia’s foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, has told his Ukrainian counterpart, Pavlo Klimkin, several times that Kiev should take Chechnya as a model, Klimkin told the Guardian.

Edited July 24, 2015 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

because you falsely said that EU and US would benefit from not corrupted government in Ukraine

things you say is corporations propaganda we know "it will be better, cooperate with us than you will be happy and rich" as effect industry is destroyed and largest emigration ever faces us, causing in future bankruptcy of retirement system,

the same awaits Ukraine

before Maidan Ukraine was selling and producing engines for Russian tanks and helicopters, aviation etc.

they lost client,

due to sanctions - Germany says "EU must keep sanctions" than Polish farmers lost Russian market, than Germany sells to Russia trying avoid sanctions,

the same trick they would do with Ukraine - conflict Ukraine with Russia, than when Ukraine will not sell, offering their own products and services,

it is trick to eliminate another country production so west will take over this market totally,

because Russian customer before Maidan was buying different products, Maidan caused that now Russian customer doesn't buy them and most probably when war will end, first to offer and sign deals with Russian market will be Germany and France,

thats why noone in EU elites or US elites care about Ukrainian corruption,

because than they can eliminate Ukrainian industry as they eliminated Polish,

than main producer of goods for Ukraine will be "west" and main exporter to Russia too,

seeing how economy goes i am starting to believe that apart from anti-corruption right wing movement in Ukraine, someone from west could "help" too , that's why till today we do not know who started snipers of Maidan,

because so far "the one who gains most" is neither Ukrainian right wing who are now enemy number one for everyone including Ukrainian government, nor Russia , it could be as well one of oligarch who want to make more deals with western corporations instead of being controlled by Yanuk/Moscow, and i do not use eritsitc tricks manipulating when something turns against me - like your words about EU and US profiting from proper and not corrupted governments in other countries,

Ukrainian army soon will need modernization, lets see who will get contracts, Ukrainian industry needs clients lets see who will buy their engines or who will take over those companies and close them,

Ukraine is in poverty, lets see who will open banks to give them credits and what shops, banks, corporations will be tax-free releases,

so far Ukrainian-Russian conflict only caused fall of economical relations with Russia (huge market) for Ukraine, Poland while German, French companies try to avoid sanctions

when it comes to Ukrainian grain , prices went down, they export a lot of grain and western EU citizens have cheaper bread, cakes, pizza,

Ukrainians have no money for import machines and Polish industry which was a little producing for Ukrainian market now says fall of export is for few dozens lower

and it works the same , all people on globe need food , clothes, electricity, water , transport ,

in corrupted countries it works the same, big foreign corporations take profits , local market has costs,

there is no geopolitical location that makes people not need buy food or have electric wires or take credit, and anyone who says that EU/US would benefit from lack of corruption in other countries - miss true,

Ukraine - mafia take over people property

http://kresy24.pl/70979/bandytyzm-na-wolyniu-strzelaja-do-dziennikarzy-a-milicja-sie-przyglada-wideo/

meanwhile business of oligarchs carry on ;)

http://kresy24.pl/71018/ukrainskie-zaklady-remontuja-czolgi-dla-rosji-afera-w-chmielnickim/

in machine plant from Ukraine someone made repairs for ... Russian army tanks , business is business,

i do not know how reliable is Kresy portal (probably led by Poles who left there after WW2)

but they claim that neo nazis will take power altough they are minority but they are serious military power,

and only guilty of it would be those who support and not fight with corruption , all who supported oligarchs since 1990s, western businessmen, Moscow , both,

Kresy claims that Right Sector can be supported by Russia to torn apart Ukraine and weaken it by fighting within,

but i hardly believe it, cause neo-nazis fight for their own business, to take power and rule, and if they succeed (against population votes) guilt will be on those who were trying to make business with Putin behind sanctions curtain, some western corporations who meet from time to time with Putin administration ( http://niezalezna.pl/68672-co-tam-wojna-co-tam-sankcje-przyjazn-niemiec-z-rosja-trwa-w-najlepsze http://natemat.pl/121763,niemiecki-biznes-chce-zlagodzenia-sankcji-wobec-rosji-prezesi-spolek-dzwonia-w-tym-celu-do-angeli-merkel )

and than Ukrainian nazis are fueled by this, because they say everyone betrayed them so they are more focused on fight with anyone and next Maidan is possible,

in such mess neo-nazis can take a lot, the only way to avoid it is destroy corruption , but noone of those who own/manage worldwide corporations (not selling minor luxury products for small group of customers) wants it , because if they would destroy corruption than present-day profits would be cut and future profits would be zero, moreover - competitive industry would appear,

they (corporations bosses) would rather push eastern Europe into war, than resign from profits, because during war they would sell another products

the only puprose of any business /corporation is profit

war of Ukraine with Russia is dream of those corporations , than Poland would buy a looooooooooooooooooot of arms, than Ukrainians would take huge credits to buy anything, than both Russian and Ukrainian industry would suffer from destruction or sanctions etc.

when war would end, Russians would pay bigger price for cars (telling it is due to sanctions), Ukrainians would have to buy everything from the scratch (every washing machine, car , vacum cleaners, rebuild infrastructure), Poland and all Baltic states and Romania would be into debts 10 times bigger than Greece because of enormous weapons number we would buy to feel safe (from US and Germany)

when situation chill down after eventual war (local, no danger to others), than German, US corporations are rich, Poland , Romania, Baltic states drown in debts have to sell land and forests, 10 generations to pay debt, Ukraine divided and oligarchs create small county-like kingdoms, Eastern Ukraine is Russian , Western Ukraine is farmer land with civilization level year 1850 , Greek in this all becomes rich than anyone around Ukraine,

destroying oligarchy and corruption is in best interest of every citizens of countries surrounding Ukraine but for sure not to management of few corporations (plus personnel hired there, so they have jobs, work )

Edited July 24, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Vilas so your point is that the EU and the US are interested in a really weak, corrupted and poor Ukraine. What would be the benefits for the EU and the US?

If Ukraine is in debt, has no industry, their people are poor as hell. They can't buy anything from the EU & US (nor food, nor weapons, nor anything) hence the EU & US would become poorer. Or better in the Greece example, if the EU & US want a corrupt and poor Greece, why do the EU & US send them so much money to avoid them to fall in bankruptcy?

You seem to miss the fact that if a country is more corrupt and poor, is more difficult to sell them stuff and more complicated and expensive to make business. A good example of a really poor and corrupt country is Somalia in the 90s... see how many Western companies invested there... Practically none.

If for the US & EU an authoritarian and profoundly corrupt country like Gaddaffi's Libya was beneficial why did they assisted the pro-democratic opposition? Why after WW2 the US invested so much money (Marshall plans) in assist with the economical recover of Western Europe and Japan? If according to you it would had been more beneficial a corrupt and poor country?

How can the Germans benefit of a poor Poland, where they have to send a lot of their money. If Poland was richer and cleaner, the Germany companies would be able to sell more and safely.

If you were a businessman where would do you think you would have better business opportunities and better benefits. Let's say where would you rather have a shop in the center of London or in a dark, corrupted and poor Easter European republic?

Edited July 24, 2015 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

omg any proofs i shown are not touching you, again examples of Harley Davidson ?

Greece ? how much tanks, jets useless they bought ? of course they produced those jets , tanks, rifles ?

how much debted money was spent by Greeks on stuff not produced in Greece ?

You seem to miss the fact that if a country is more corrupt and poor, is more difficult to sell them stuff and more complicated and expensive to make business.

o so those people do not need energy ? or their electric plants will fall and will be privatized so later energy will be provided by foreign company which has wires (Tonci said about it in Greek topic)

If for the US & EU an authoritarian and profoundly corrupt country like Gaddaffi's Libya was beneficial why did they assisted the pro-democratic opposition?

by whom Lybia was corrupted ? who were major countriers/corporations building plants in Lybia, selling arms to Lybia, keeping electrical, water, power stations ? where there corporations selling fuel as mediator between oil company and client ?

Lybia planned start independent banking system

Why after WW2 the US invested so much money (Marshall plans) in assist with the economical recover of Western Europe and Japan? If according to you it would had been more beneficial a corrupt and poor country?

because old west is treated still like "better human" than east Europe, who had eugenics plans before WW2 ? only Third Reich ?

How can the Germans benefit of a poor Poland, where they have to send a lot of their money. If Poland was richer and cleaner, the Germany companies would be able to sell more and safely.

despite 100 examples you do not understand or rather using eristic tricks (ignoring given examples) you try to "won" saying "thanx god EU will be united, we just need get rid of sovereignty and give all to Brussels"

i gave examples of privatization of whole sectors, i answered it in long posts, i prescribed situation about hostile takeover of industry based on corruption of politicians selling what belongs to state - abroad ,

repeating it has no sens, i wrote long posts full of examples,

now i buy in Lidl, enegry is via RWE wires , policeman has G36, uses Mercedes Sprinter, i buy Swatrzkopf shampoo , wash in Bosh/AEG washing machine bought on credit in foreign bank, and 17 bilions euro of profits every years leaving my country abroad as economists from left or right say,

If you were a businessman where would do you think you would have better business opportunities and better benefits. Let's say where would you rather have a shop in the center of London or in a dark, corrupted and poor Easter European republic?

in London i would have to pay tax, competee,

in Eastern Europe i would pay bribe to local politician, he would sell me factory producing the same product that i offer for 1 dollar and free me from income tax, i would destroy production line, took machines to my country, hired empty plazza for warehouse, brought there my products, breaking every labor right case bribes to court would allow me to act like this, my profits would be unquestionable bigger than to pay all taxes and competee with other companies in London (if i sell cheap mass products, not luxury narrow products)

income tax is like 20% for companies, not paying 20% allows for kill competition, if i would not be paying employers i would save more, bribing judge would be 0.1% of such costs to won case,

destroying factory which produces the same would allow me eliminate competition but customers must buy this mass product, so they would be buying mine, price would be similar cause if i transport it from my factory but avoid taxes, than cost is similar but i keep all profits and get new market zone, cause their factory no longer produce on their market so i took that market and now i sell there cheap mass everyday products (energy, telecomunication, water, fuel, food, clothes, electric simple house equipment, cheap cars) ,

people need to wear shirt,

previously i was selling 10000 shirts in my west country from my factory,

when i bought their factory selling them 5000 shirt for 1` dollar i destroyed factory,

they still need 5000 shirts, maybe now they are poor and can afford 4000 shirts, but this is okay

cause their company no longer produce it, now i sell 14 000 shirts instead of 10 000 and i pay no tax,

without destruction of their company i would still be selling only 10 000 shirts in my local market,

even if now they can afford only 3000 shirts, it is not a problem cause i sell them , previously they were buying their own shirts and i was selling there ZERO my shirts,

even if they will be hungry from poverty and unemployment and buy only 2000 shirts it is still not problem, cause before corruption i was selling there ZERO< cause they were buying shirts from THEIR local factory, now they take credits for this shirts at my friends bank, so all is okay, they have debts, soon we gonna confiscate their property for debts and we can sell it to Chinese which would buid there something

in case of London, Brits were not buying more shirts than they buy usually, so screw them, but on east big market is open, i just need to bribe politician who will sell me local factory of shirts which was state-owned , just price must be very very low plus i must be free from taxes, so costs of transportation of shirts will not be too big, anyway, they cannot buy other shirt in this area cause i bought only factory, of course others may come and sell shirts, but they would pay for transportation, they would not be cheaper then me, as i have tax-free paper, i am cheaper and they buying my shirts in E.E. and i do not care about London at all, cause costs are too big to competee there,

i can leave part of their sewing machines in EE, no problem, just i will pay those people 5 times less than people who sew in my native country, i would not close my factory of course cause trade union would kill me in my country, here i will pay bribe to politician and if their trade union will act, than their police would do job for me ,

those cheaper produce shirts i can sell them or look for new market in Ukraine, shirts produced there will be very profitable, cause i do not pay tax, i am cheaper than competition, my trade union is happy cause from 1% of profits from EE factory i funded in my country kindergarten for employee in my native location and employee love me in my native location,

before corruption i had ZERO sales in EE region , because simply they were buying their own produced shirts,

without corruption they would be still buying THEIR own shirts, not mine, my shirts are TOO EXPENSIVE for them if i would have to transport them, pay taxes,

they produce shirts CHEAPER, till they produce - i cannot compete, i must destroy THEIR production, and not corrupted government or private local owner WILL NOT sell me their company for 1 dollar as it brings them 10000 dollars profit, if their politician is not corrupted or it belongs to their private owner than i am helpless and i cannot enter market, i would have to do things cheaper, but how can i do it if my workers earn 5 times more ?

the only costs i can cut (i cannot cut in my own country, i cannot cut transport) is tax , so i have to be in corrupted country to not pay it,

in case of energy - they need energy, it is a matter to buy cheap their power plant and than i sell enegry, so it is a matter to become owner of what was belong to state (in post commie countries, before 1989, in so called comunism THERE WAS NO private sector plants, manufacturers etc. all was property of state , owner was state, not person, so buying for bribe is buying from politician )

in London i would not buy this power plant for 1 dollar, i would have to pay tax, invest, meet labor code and trade unions demands,

if i was selling Harley Davidson i would think opposite - only rich people need my bike, poor cannot afford it,

but i am selling soap, shirt, washing machine, energy, they are cheap, they are basic needs of human, they are WIDE produced by LOCAL producers , now it is a matter to become such producer by taking over their power plant or destroy their power plant and put my wires,

even poor people need shirts, energy,

they simply need it and unit cost is similar, i do not need them to be rich, i do not care if they are poor, cause they will buy this energy and this shirt , no matter if they are rich or poor , 1 family has 1 washing machine, even if someone is rich he will not buy 2 washing machines from me, he needs just one in his apartment, second washing machine is useless for him, so i must find new customer - so i must destroy machine washing factory in other country,

do rich people have 10 washing machines in their house ? no , what for, 1 washing machine in bathroom is enough for their family,

if i already sold them washing machine than when they will buy another ? in 2020 ? so i must sell washing machine to someone other, what if this someone other has his factory producing washing machines similar to my , with price little lower ? more over his washing machines are more reliable, they should work 10 years, my work 5 years cause i want people to buy another one in 6th year,

they are poor they will buy cheaper and more reliable - THEIRS so i have to stop their producer from producing it, how can i do it if their producer belongs to their state ? i must buy it as cheap as possible,

in London it is impossible, they do not sell such factories, other factories are private owned and they will never sell it to me with cost lower than profit of 1 year, it would be insane for them, for EE corrupted politician it is good deal

Edited July 24, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

So summarizing your message, your point is that the EU & US want to enslave all the rest of the World and make them buy a lot of stuff from them and become in debt.

But that logic only works for a really little time. If Ukraine falls in bankruptcy because they have spent all their wealth buying Western stuff. Then what?

They would have no wealth anymore, so the West can't sell them anything anymore, the Western Banks that lend them money would fail. Obviously in that case they wouldn't be accepted inside the EU nor in NATO, because they couldn't afford anything. Then it would happen like in a lot of African countries, that they are so poor that tensions and violence would grow spreading to their neighbors (like Somalia). Then the West would have to spent an incredible lot of money and resources to control the situation and turn Ukraine in a normal country.

There is a reason why slavery and colonialism failed. It's simple. A happy middle class guy will work more efficiently and spends more money than a poor slave. Banks and corporations live of people's money. If people are poor won't buy stuff from the corporations nor save money in the bank (in case you didn't know, the banks main business is in using people's saving in different projects in order to get a benefits).

Then you go to your argument that, yeah... But people will always need to buy the most primary stuff. Not really. When people are really poor they eat less and they grow their own stuff, or flee to the countryside. In addition there's less safety in the cities, hence another reason why people flee to the countryside. Or even worst, when people are really desperate they try to flee to richer countries.

That's why things happen as you said, the West will have an avalanche of immigrants that would made their economies poorer, and their countries less safe, and more terrorism.

[vilas 477]

omg again eristic, you either ignore example or you not understand

when company IS SOLD , than since that moment people can be richer, but most important is moment of corruption to BUY their factory,

it is a matter not of poor vs rich, it is a matter of WHO control/owns factory ,

you simply ignore or do not understand

i was not saying about forcing people to be poor , i said about TAKING OVER other country factory to create there market

once market and production is taken , than people can be middle class cause they are buying foreign owned production goods and part of money is transferred abroad , local budget has lower income, but it is not level of Somalia, it is difference of few percent, 10% or dozen percent,

people in Somalia cannot buy car,

people in my country instead of buy Passat have to buy VW Polo cursing it is not Passat, but they bough 1 unit and it is not Polish made car and because of it 10 Polish workers work cheap in UK,

There is a reason why slavery and colonialism failed. It's simple. A happy middle class guy will work more efficiently and spends more money than a poor slave. Banks and corporations live of people's money. If people are poor won't buy stuff from the corporations nor save money in the bank (in case you didn't know, the banks main business is in using people's saving in different projects in order to get a benefits).

ehhh... i do not know how to talk to you

every man needs energy, every man needs shirt, just before corruption they had THEIR OWN shirt produced by their own company which paid taxes in their state

That's why things happen as you said, the West will have an avalanche of immigrants that would made their economies poorer, and their countries less safe, and more terrorism.

is Polish cheaper worker is problem for usual English worker or for guy who owns German bank ?

does owner of bank cares about mr. John Smiths who now had to competee with Polish worker ?

is jihadist terrorist is problem for usual pedestrian or problem for person who lives in guarded zone mention in Hawaii who is owner of colonial-country gold mine ?

---------- Post added at 13:13 ---------- Previous post was at 13:07 ----------

as you not understand, there is easy example for you:

- you buy pizza every week with family, such Sunday dinner,

- there is mr Smith, he owns pizza bar,

but i want to sell it, but my restaurant is too far from you, on second street and your family want to eat by the house,

i go, point gun to head of mr Smith, say "go to notary, prescribe your restaurant on me or i will kill you" , he does it, now restaurant is mine,

i sell you pizza, your money went into my pocket,

previous owner is unemployed - so what , you will pay penny from your taxes for his unemployment benefit, i do not care, this tax due to unemployment is 0.1 USD per capita while i earn on you eating in "my" restaurant 5 dollars on pizza, so counting cost due to his benefit i have 4.9 on plus, you have 0.1 less in your tax, also not big money ,

but i have profit cause you eat my pizza every Sunday,

this pizza can be even prepared in my second restaurant, no problem, i can transport it free cause i do not pay tax in your location, and it still would be worm and tasty,

Edited July 24, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

when company IS SOLD , than since that moment people can be richer, but most important is moment of corruption to BUY their factory,

it is a matter not of poor vs rich, it is a matter of WHO control/owns factory ,

Industries do not generate a stable flow of money for ever. The markets evolve constantly. It does not really matter who owns a factory, what matters is that the factory is keeping in the top of the market by developing new strategies, and you can only achieve that having good and happy and competent workers.

Let's say I buy the number 1 cell phone company, let's call it something funny like a village in Finland, we could call it Nokia. But the people discover that smartphones are more funny, and rather have a smartphone than my Nokia cellphones. My company goes to shit, I sell it to an American company that finally closes it.

is Polish cheaper worker is problem for usual English worker or for guy who owns German bank ?

does owner of bank cares about mr. John Smiths who now had to competee with Polish worker ?

is jihadist terrorist is problem for usual pedestrian or problem for person who lives in guarded zone mention in Hawaii who is owner of colonial-country gold mine ?

Read above. And of course a cheap uneducated worker is a BIG problem for the one who owns the company, it can mean it's total failure. That's why so many US companies expend incredible amounts of money in R+D and scholarships.

A Jihadist terrorist is worst for the big company owners, that have to change their whole production structure, spent incredible amounts of money in PMC to secure their business, etc.

With the globalization the most important resource of a society is to have well educated and happy inhabitants.

That's why the EU & US would benefit the most of an educated, rich and democratic Ukraine.

Edited July 24, 2015 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

Let's say I buy the number 1 cell phone company, let's call it something funny like a village in Finland, we could call it Nokia. But the people discover that smartphones are more funny, and rather have a smartphone than my Nokia cellphones. My company goes to shit, I sell it to an American company that finally closes it.

eristic again?

smartphone vs cell phone is example like Harley

it is different product than ENERGY, water, food, shirt,

you do not find another shirt more funny than jacket, you buy simply other color but it is stil cotton shirt which can be produced by the same company in different colors,

for winter you wear jacket (cause it is cold ) and in summer you earn shirt (cause in jacket you would melt ) , you do not choose between jacket or shirt when there is +30 on street, you do not choose between t-shirt or jacket when there is -10 ,

you do not find another enegry funny , you simply need 1000 KWh of enegry for all PC, washing, light, machines ,

you do not find boots more funny than vacum cleaner, because when you go to street you do not put on vacum cleaner on legs,

when you clean room you need vacum cleaner,

you do not clean room with boots,

so you buy ANY boots and ANY vacum cleaner - and it is just matter that this is not LOCALY made vacum cleaner and production-related taxes not filled local buget,

when you go to take bath you take soap, you do not go there with rifle cause rifle is more funy than soap when you wash yourself, you always have to get soap to wash yourself, now it is matter if this soap was produced on your street giving local tax to local budget to set new local school

Read above. And of course a cheap uneducated worker is a BIG problem for the one who owns the company,

not true , stupid customer follows advertisement, wise consumer like me read TESTS of users and always turn off advertisements in browser (i do not use TV) , stupid people buy according to what is fashionable, i buy what is durable, they buy fashionable shirt and throw it away next summer "cause this summer it is fashionable to wear yellow not blue" i do not care if yellow or blue, i care if comfortable and good temperature inside cloth,

and religion terror is not because of lack of education because even professors believe in life after life, a lot of converts terrorists were educated, they simply had mental problems despite education level,

about cheap and educated - ask where our graduate people work in west, they have Masters degree , they are simply cheap, but their level of education is similar, for company it is better profitable to have person with the same education level but whom they pay much less,

earning PMC is not that big costs comparing to profits, it is just few percent more while incomes are dozens percent more,

if i earn 50 but cost of it is 30 or if i earn 10 but cost of it is 0 ? what is bigger ?

50-30

or

10-0

???

That's why the EU & US would benefit the most of an educated, rich and democratic Ukraine.

on education i agree - they need cheap doctors (to carry about older society) , engineers, coders (to work as outsourcing in case of IT) - working cheaper ,

after they buy their industry, banks, supermarkets - yes, than rich clients will buy their products

only matter is corruption in moment of selling industry , is it filling local zone with taxes or not,

A happy middle class guy will work more efficiently and spends more money than a poor slave.

buying whose product ?

made by my neigbor or your neigbor ? who get salary, tax from producing this product he bought ? which budget was filled with taxes connected with this product which he bought ?

Edited July 24, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

eristic again?

smartphone vs cell phone is example like Harley

it is different product than ENERGY, water, food, shirt,

You miss the point that all industries are interconnected closely.

You rather have potatoes as an example? Ok.

I have a farm in Southern France that cultivates potatoes. I hire a lot of Polish immigrants, because they are deadly cheaper than locals. Hence I can sell my product cheaper.

Ok, but then a neighbor manage to find a super-technique that allows him to cultivate more potatoes in an ecologic fashion that is trendy.

I'm screwed up so I sell the farm and buy one in Tanzania (to say something) where I can pay the locals just 1€ per day and I bribe the local officials so even with transport I can still sell my potatoes so dirty cheap that I can get benefits even with the ecological trend.

But then a Japanese company just develops a system that allows to grow potatoes industrially in greenhouses and send them in power that can be printed with 3D printers in France. Making the transport cheaper, more fashion, preventing diseases, etc.

Heck that is really screwed up, so I sell my business to that Japanese company and become one of its workers.

Then a new World religion appears saying that potatoes are the devil and the Japanese company ends bankrupt.

That's how the economy evolves. There are trends, technology makes stuff cheaper and better (from cell phones to t-shirts or potatoes), markets flow, far away events like conflicts or wars can mean the failure of your business. Hence, no owning the World doesn't work. Hiring people cheaper, neither.

The only way to survive is to be in constant motion, and have the best workers, happier, and better educated. Just check what the main World Corporations are doing, in what the oligarchs invest. Even Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the oligarch by antonomasia, before being crushed by Putin was promoting democracy, transparency and education in Russia in order to get better benefits for Yukos.

[vilas 477]

but when all eat potatoes

and when you export potatoes to Germany and Germans buy your potatoes, it is cheaper for you as producer of potatoes to bribe person in Tanzania, than to pay farmers in Switzerland to grow those potatoes,

and income that you get from German potato eater - you keep

without corrupting Tanzania - you would have your bank account smaller

[mistyronin 1181]

but when all eat potatoes

and when you export potatoes to Germany and Germans buy your potatoes, it is cheaper for you as producer of potatoes to bribe person in Tanzania, than to pay farmers in Switzerland to grow those potatoes,

and income that you get from German potato eater - you keep

without corrupting Tanzania - you would have your bank account smaller

Until we don't eat potatoes, being because another food is healthier or cheaper or trendy. It happens constantly.

In fact potatoes didn't even exist in Europe / Asia / Africa, until the Castilian Conquistadores brought them from America about 500 years ago. And were not broadly extended in Europe before the 19th century.

- - -

(Forbes) Will Ukraine Default?

For the last few weeks the government of Ukraine has been involved in intense negotiations with creditor representatives with a view to restructuring its sovereign debt.

Ukraine’s economy is in desperate trouble, mainly due to the civil war in the east of the country and the ongoing standoff with Russia over gas supplies. GDP has fallen by 23% in the last two years, a collapse of a similar order to Greece’s but over a much shorter time frame. Because of this, Ukraine’s debt/GDP currently stands at an unsustainable 158% of GDP. Default or restructuring is inevitable. The argument is over what form this should take.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, that's not directly about Ukraine, but certainly part of the debate NATO vs Russia :

(Vice News)

In the wake of events in Ukraine, NATO has turned its attention towards countries that border the Russian Federation — attempting to boost its quick-response capabilities in Europe. In September, the alliance agreed to create a 5,000-strong rapid reaction Spearhead Force, which will be capable of deploying across the continent within 48-hours of a military incursion. VICE News joined several thousand NATO troops in western Poland, for the first deployment test of the "Very High Readiness Joint Task Force."

According to the premise of the exercise, Poland and the Baltics were under threat from the fictional state of “Bothnia†— a master of conventional and hybrid warfare. NATO forces had been ordered to deploy, and quickly, to Poland.

During the deployment test, NATO’s top diplomat Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg flew in to watch its progress. He told VICE News that NATO was undertaking “the biggest reinforcement of our collective defense since the end of the Cold War.â€

While in Poland, VICE News filmed with non-governmental paramilitary groups, which are training young Polish people to defend their towns and cities in the event of a foreign-backed assault. Participation in paramilitaries has reportedly increased since Russia’s seizure of the Crimean Peninsula.

We also traveled north, to visit the border that Poland shares with the heavily armed Russian territory of Kaliningrad. This spring, Poland built six high-tech watchtowers along the 125-mile border.

wS3DROvygAw

[vilas 477]

Until we don't eat potatoes, being because another food is healthier or cheaper or trendy. It happens constantly.

In fact potatoes didn't even exist in Europe / Asia / Africa, until the Castilian Conquistadores brought them from America about 500 years ago. And were not broadly extended in Europe before the 19th century.

your eristic level is beyond critic, when you loose and have no right, you start using "cosmic" eristic to deny not comfortable facts proving you are wrong, i end discussion at such twisting eristic when all aguments/proofs/examples are ignored or twisted,

you act like women who say "i want to marry inteligent guy, i look at brain not at body, but of course or handsome are inteligent, and all ugly are idiots"

you haven't convinced anyone that EU/US corporations/banks/elites would like to support fight with oligarchy and corruption in east, cause it lasts for 2 decades with support of west elites, moreover colonialism lasted for few centuries and results were similar,

west was using east to have more profits nothing more and now west tries to convince east how good they are and how nice they are, and how they care,

well we seen their care - when all our industry was bought for penny and destructed - because of corruption supported by western corporations, not fought by them ,

if they were really care about proper and not corrupted government - they would not be using bribes, not corrupting, not buying our industry knowing they do it from commies for small percent of value,

honest person doesn't buy from thief, if man on street propose newest Canon 7D for 10 dollars , than it means he robbed it from tourist next corner, if someone offers you Canon 7D "hot, take it" for 10 USD, than you should call police, not buy such camera,

because of corruption many of my friends have to leave homes and started to look for job abroad disconecting with families,

because of corruption some corporations get new markets and were selling there products without big competition,

all cheap labor you have is because of corruption in east/south countries, nothing more,

because of it i have to work in 2 jobs, 7 days a week, 12 hours daily (ca 80 hours a week) to earn money that allow me to live normaly and save for flat, thats why there is no addons - i work from monday till thursday from 8AM till 8PM, than in friday, saturday till 3 AM, than in sunday from 10 AM till 5 PM to earn money on 30-35 square meters flat in my city which costs ca. 80 000 USD ,

and of course i worked for someone as cheap labor IT oursourcing from abroad too,

the same awaits Ukraine and you haven't convinced anyone that elites of EU/US care about fight with coruption

they shake hands with oligarch, our most corrupted politicians from early 90s now are important in EU parliament, people who caused privatization are shaking hands with leaders of western countries or work in western banks as "advisors",

they are not hunted like Serbian officers by international courts,

we pay for corruption ourselves by our low income, corporations, banks transfer big money from one country to other country shaking with laughter ,

as result as Tonci said - in Greece will happen the same, people will pay more for electricity, water when privatised companies will be bought and energy will be transfered from plant to house via wires which have new owner from abroad,

only one who gain on corruption are few corporations which act nowadays like new colonial empires,

usual citizens from west gain only as workers who have job and not lost job, sometimes they pay more taxes to fill what corporations did, cause what corporations broke here, than western usual citizen taxpayer sometimes also participates,

meanwhile thanx to corruption some managers in some corporations can buy every month new Ferrari

Ukraine is nearly 50 milions clients market, huge market, huuuuge selling zone and a lot of cheap labor and in "worst" case a lot of cheap beautiful blond girls to be used as toys for some old rich guys from those corporations

Edited July 24, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

your eristic level is beyond critic, when you loose and have no right, you start using "cosmic" eristic to deny not comfortable facts proving you are wrong, i end discussion at such twisting eristic when all aguments/proofs/examples are ignored or twisted

I guess you meant "lose". But was there a competition? I thought we were just giving our opinions and commenting facts, not competing against each other :confused:

But I'm glad that you think that you have "won" (I guess that in that alleged "competition" you were judge and party at the same time). In any case, Congratulations?! :icon_eek:

BTW are you sure you really understand the meaning of the word eristic?

you haven't convinced anyone that EU/US corporations/banks/elites would like to support fight with oligarchy and corruption in east

It's good to know that I was trying to convince someone of that? Also interesting that you consider yourself everyone. :confused:

Truth be told, I was just commenting that it's more profitable for the West that Ukraine becomes a transparent, democratic and rich country in order to have a long-time benefits from their relationship, and given you a good amount of reasons and examples that support my point. Nothing more, nothing less.

Don't get me wrong, or take it as a disrespect, but I honestly don't care at all if you don't think like me. In fact I find people that think differently more interesting. I have no need to convince anyone.

- - -

(Financial Times) Return of Ukraine fighters alarms Russia

Mr Melnikov is a member of the Russian opposition’s right flank: a group of radical nationalists who believe that Ukrainian hardliners have launched a war against ethnic Russians in east Ukraine and that it is their duty to stop them. While their position on the war in Ukraine would seem to align with the Kremlin’s, Mr Melnikov and his cohort argue that Vladimir Putin, by not sending troops into Ukraine, did not go far enough. “Our president doesn’t solve problems, he just freezes them,†Mr Melnikov said. “He’s ineffective and corrupt.â€

Many of his fellow nationalists who travelled to join the rebels in east Ukraine felt similarly, he said. “All the people who travel to Donetsk to help the rebels they don’t necessarily support the Russian authorities — and now these people have military experience,†he said.

Mr Melnikov said he was also planning to scale back his involvement in the Donetsk People’s Republic. A “hard winter†was awaiting Russia, he predicted, and former volunteer fighters like himself could soon be playing a bigger role.

“I think these people will let themselves be known at a certain moment when some big government decisions are being taken — through protests, resembling Maidan,†he said, referring to the volunteer fighters. “As Maidan showed, a revolution comes not from 100,000 people standing around, but 1,000 radicals taking action.â€