Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Fleeing isn't deserting my bad. If so, most of the soldiers during a war should be executed.

[Tonci87 163]

Deserter is a soldier that leaves his post in spite of his orders. That includes retreating without orders. And this is a dumb discussion, I simply made a comparison, so why are you always eager to escalate things?

Because you bring really weird comparisons.

[ProfTournesol 956]

From the BBC :

Nearly 2,500 Ukrainian soldiers withdrew from Debaltseve on Wednesday.

Ukraine's army said 82 soldiers were still missing on Thursday. Rebels claim to have captured hundreds.

Earlier a senior Ukrainian military official said 22 Ukrainian soldiers had died in Debaltseve over the past three days. Rebel claims of a much higher figure have been dismissed by the government.

[mistyronin 1181]

This kinda reminds me of Hitlers orders to hold ground against all common sense in the last years of WW2.

And that my dear forum mates proves Godwin's law.

For any who studied Military History there have been hundreds of examples of stubborn resistance to keep ground ( some would say heroic ), and no, Hitler was not precisely known for that...

As some other forum users commented, Stalin was better known for his criminal order No. 227:

"Not one step back!" (Russian: Ðи шагу назад! )

( Which became a slogan of the Soviet Resistance, and others ).

But for instance:

The American Epic: Custer's Last Stand in Little Bighorn

Numantia ( which lead to become a Spanish common expression ).

And who doesn't know about Leonidas last stand at Thermopylae? AU! AU! AU!

Or the battle of Battle of Shiroyama, you know the honor of the Samurai prevented them to surrender, even if it meant their end...

- - -

( BBC ) Ukraine crisis: Shelling spreads despite ceasefire

Shelling is reported from several places in eastern Ukraine despite the official ceasefire between government forces and pro-Russia rebels.

Artillery fire could be heard in the region's biggest city, Donetsk, where the truce had been observed so far.

Ukrainian military sources also accused rebels of shelling positions near the port city of Mariupol.

The fighting comes as Russia, Ukraine, France and Germany held further talks over the phone.

Most of the renewed fighting in rebel-held Donetsk appears to be in the north of the city towards the airport.

[vilas 477]

British Intel:

http://niezalezna.pl/64353-brytyjskie-sluzby-terrorysci-na-ukrainie-uzywaja-najnowoczesniejszego-rosyjskiego-sprzetu

Russian newest SA-22 on Ukraine

http://niezalezna.pl/64351-rosyjski-general-aleksandr-lencow-dowodzil-zdobyciem-debalcewa-zobacz

man very very very similar to Russian general as "separatist"

http://niezalezna.pl/64357-polscy-dziennikarze-pod-ostrzalem-rosjan-publikujemy-ich-dramatyczny-apel-do-europy

Polish journalists appeal to French and German journalist to inform properly, not only about Ukrainians breaking ceasefire

[Tonci87 163]

Poroshenko has suggested a UN peace mission to eastern Ukraine. Russia and the separatist immediatelly said no.

[mistyronin 1181]

Poroshenko has suggested a UN peace mission to eastern Ukraine. Russia and the separatist immediatelly said no.

Because that would bring peace and stabilize the situation. Not in the best interests of some...

[ProfTournesol 956]

http://niezalezna.pl/64357-polscy-dziennikarze-pod-ostrzalem-rosjan-publikujemy-ich-dramatyczny-apel-do-europy

Polish journalists appeal to French and German journalist to inform properly, not only about Ukrainians breaking ceasefire

If they want to make an appeal to foreign journalists, they'd better do it in English :)

[aleksadragutin 9]

And that my dear forum mates proves Godwin's law.

For any who studied Military History there have been hundreds of examples of stubborn resistance to keep ground ( some would say heroic ), and no, Hitler was not precisely known for that...

As some other forum users commented, Stalin was better known for his criminal order No. 227:

( Which became a slogan of the Soviet Resistance, and others ).

But for instance:

The American Epic: Custer's Last Stand in Little Bighorn

Numantia ( which lead to become a Spanish common expression ).

And who doesn't know about Leonidas last stand at Thermopylae? AU! AU! AU!

Or the battle of Battle of Shiroyama, you know the honor of the Samurai prevented them to surrender, even if it meant their end...

Ok, Stalin is a good example too, but Leonidas and Custer are completely different things. But Hitler was very well known for his stubbornness after his mental health deteriorated in the last years and months of the war. There's no need to take this any further because it's pointless, I already said that I don't think of Poroshenko or Ukraine as successors to nazi Germany, that's just a comparison that came to mind.

[mistyronin 1181]

( Al Jazeera ) Ukraine fighting rages despite efforts to revive truce

Renewed fighting has occured in eastern Ukraine despite European efforts to revive a fresh ceasefire, a day after pro-Russian separatists who spurned the truce forced thousands of government troops to withdraw from the strategic town of Debaltseve.

Artillery was still raining down near Debaltseve, a railway hub, on Thursday, and the Ukrainian military said its troops had come under fire elsewhere from rebels.

- - -

But Hitler was very well known for his stubbornness after his mental health deteriorated in the last years and months of the war.

In any case, I agree with this exact point ( tho it was not only mental, but his full health ). But I think it doesn't apply in any sense with the actual situation in Ukraine. Poroshenko's health has not deteriorated significantly to force him to be stubborn.

[oxmox 73]

Poroshenko has suggested a UN peace mission to eastern Ukraine. Russia and the separatist immediatelly said no.

Strange, seperatists did ask for that months ago. Why do they reject now ?:

Rebel leaders call for UN peacekeepers to help crisis-hit eastern Ukraine (November 2014)

http://www.euronews.com/2014/11/25/ukraine-rebel-leaders-call-for-un-peacekeepers-to-help-crisis-hit-east/

Btw, the UN resolution suggested by Russia will be drafted...

Did the seperatists open a corridor around Debaltsevo so government forces could withdrawel ?

Authorities of the DPR are ready to open green corridor from “Debaltsevo trap†(17th February 2015)

http://novorossia.today/authorities-of-the-dpr-are-ready-to-open-green-corridor-from-debaltsevo-trap/

Doesnt look like following this report from the Wall Street Journal:

Amid Retreat, Ukrainian Soldiers Recount Blood and Chaos (WSJ 18th February 2015)

LUHANSKE, Ukraine–Hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers retreated from from the strategic railway town of Debaltseve Wednesday, breaking through encirclement by Russian-backed militants and heading to government-controlled territory on trucks, tank and foot. Here, four of them recall briefly a day filled with blood and chaos.

“The separatists had surrounded and captured many other redoubts. We got out thanks to our brigadier, who gave us a secret order in the evening to pack our things and get ready to leave. He told us to take what we could and blow up everything else.

“It wasn’t a withdrawal. A withdrawal is supported by artillery and along a planned route. They abandoned us.

“It wasn’t organized. Vehicles were speeding past each other. We were chased by a separatist armored vehicle. Sixteen of our guys on a truck were just cut down by a machine gun.â€

http://blogs.wsj.com/dispatch/2015/02/18/amid-retreat-ukrainian-soldiers-recount-blood-and-chaos/

The official statement reads different.....despite so many major media sources reporting rather the opposite.

Official Statement by the President on the situation in Debaltseve (18th Febr. 2015)

I can inform now that this morning the Armed Forces of Ukraine together with the National Guard completed the operation on the planned and organized withdrawal of a part of units from Debaltseve. We can say that 80% of troops have been already withdrawn.

We can assert that the Armed Forces of Ukraine have fulfilled their tasks completely. This position and success were urgently necessary for us in the course of the Minsk negotiations and after them.

I can say that despite tough artillery and MLRS shelling, according to the recent data, we have 30 wounded out of more than 2,000 warriors.

...reaffirm our readiness to begin the withdrawal of heavy weaponry and demonstrate the absence of encirclement.

...lies about a lot of soldiers murdered yesterday, encircled roadblocks and Ukrainian warriors without ammunition, food and water.

http://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/32292.html

Official Ukrainian losses in Debaltseve after ceasefire: 6 KIA, 100 WIA

During a meeting of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine (NSDC), the President disclosed details about Ukrainian losses at Debaltseve

(source: ukr.media)

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/02/19/official-ukrainian-losses-debaltseve-ceasefire-6-kia-100-wia/

Edited February 19, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

Did the seperatists open a corridor around Debaltsevo so government forces could withdrawel ?

Authorities of the DPR are ready to open green corridor from “Debaltsevo trap†(17th February 2015)

http://novorossia.today/authorities-of-the-dpr-are-ready-to-open-green-corridor-from-debaltsevo-trap/

According to the journalist and OSCE monitors the shelling in all the ways out of Debaltsevo has been continuous.

[aleksadragutin 9]

In any case, I agree with this exact point ( tho it was not only mental, but his full health ). But I think it doesn't apply in any sense with the actual situation in Ukraine. Poroshenko's health has not deteriorated significantly to force him to be stubborn.

I didn't say that it did.

[Dwarden 1125]

the numbers about the Debaltseve are unclear, it was claimed 6 to 10 thousands UKR troops were in the cauldron area

various numbers claims around 3 thousands withdrawn in the convoy which broken thru (that would be 50 to 30% only)

UKR officials claimed 80%

Rebels claims 20%

other claims include 100s POV and 100s dead

yet, it's hard to really obtain anything of trustable value about this event

[oxmox 73]

Commander of the Donbas Battalion (battalion took part in the Battle of Debaltsevo), Semenchenko:

Debaltsevo was a complete failure in terms of planning and coordination of the general staff. He also said that he is convinced "Russian forces" had a very minimal role and that pretty much all of the separatists were just locals.

(can someone confirm this translation, its just a copy&paste)

[Tonci87 163]

Strange, seperatists did ask for that months ago. Why do they reject now ?

Because then they were loosing.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Commander of the Donbas Battalion (battalion took part in the Battle of Debaltsevo), Semenchenko:

Debaltsevo was a complete failure in terms of planning and coordination of the general staff. He also said that he is convinced "Russian forces" had a very minimal role and that pretty much all of the separatists were just locals.

The least we can say is that it was a complete failure.

[.kju 3245]

it has been a massacre it seems..

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/world/europe/ukraine-conflict-debaltseve.html

http://blogs.wsj.com/dispatch/2015/02/18/amid-retreat-ukrainian-soldiers-recount-blood-and-chaos/

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/20/world/europe/leaders-speak-by-telephone-to-try-to-impose-ukraine-cease-fire.html

[beastcat 14]

So 75 of these things are here now for some reason and according to everybody they suck.

[oxmox 73]

Because then they were loosing.

At the end of November, when ukrainian troops did dig in to await the seperatists offensive ? And claims about 7500 russian troops taking part ?

@beastcat

Are these the armored vehicles delivered by the UK ?

Edited February 19, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

At the end of November, when ukrainian troops did dig in to await the seperatists offensive ? And claims about 7500 russian troops taking part ?

Did they propose Russian UN troops?

[oxmox 73]

Did they propose Russian UN troops?

According to the news from november yes, and this is higly likely the point of issue in addition the suggestion by Poroshenko and his definition of UN Peackeepers as a pure EU police mission.

News report a sudden change:

Pro-Russian separatist “not opposed†to UN peacekeepers in eastern Ukraine

Pro-Russian separatists in the disputed eastern Ukraine region say they are not opposed to the idea of UN mandated peacekeepers.

“With regard to peacekeepers..at the very beginning when this whole conflict started we said to the Russian Federation and the UN Security Council, that the idea could be looked into, and peacekeepers sent here. We were told ‘no’ at that time. So if they want to send peacekeepers we are not against it, let them send them.â€

The Russian UN ambassador has denounced the call for the deployment of UN peacekeepers in eastern Ukraine as a destructive move.

http://www.euronews.com/2015/02/19/pro-russian-separatist-not-opposed-to-un-peacekeepers-in-eastern-ukraine/

EU police as peacekeepers in Ukraine?

Ukrainian President Poroshenko says he wants a greater role for the European Union in monitoring the ceasefire in the country's east. But the EU is skeptical of the proposal

Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko is proposing the European Union send a police force to eastern Ukraine.

After meeting with his national security council, Poroshenko said the EU police should be given a United Nations mandate to monitor the ceasefire - and possibly even the borders between the separatist-controlled region and Russia.

http://www.dw.de/eu-police-as-peacekeepers-in-ukraine/a-18269929

Edited February 20, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

OK, so at this point the separatist would like to have a Russian UN force (effectivelly putting the region under Russias control) and Poroshenko would like to have a EU-UN police force to make sure that no more weapons and gear get in from Russia. Well some things are clear. Russian UN peacekeepers are not acceptable since Russia is part of this conflict. The Russian border has to be monitored by trustworthy people to stop the flow of weapons into the area.

[beastcat 14]

@beastcat

Are these the armored vehicles delivered by the UK ?

From what I gathered they were bought in 2013 from the UK, probably as an armed vehicle for the police.

[sudayev 27]

While sifting through the trenches of Debaltseve Russian forces have captured three (or more) AN-TPQ mortar fire radars (4.25) and say something about Polish comrades.

In Russian propaganda they tell a lot of baloney about Polish army in Donbas and it was very hard to show the proper evidence and until this very moment where they found the first proof - a Polish (Czech) bandage! So funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjf95WiAo3g

Edited February 20, 2015 by Sudayev