Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yes, about US anti mortar system :

(VN) The Fine Line the US Is Straddling In Providing Defensive Support to Ukraine

As Ukrainian military forces and civilians continue to get pummeled by pro-Russia rebels on the front lines in eastern Ukraine, the US has committed to aid Ukraine by providing new military systems. Late last year, the US sent the first wave of advanced anti-mortar radar systems, along with some trainers, to support Ukraine in its current conflict.

[sudayev 27]

No surprise here about the radar. But what is a radar and Czech first aid kit when compared this to BM-30 launcher? Of course they will use it as a propaganda argument since according to Kremlin vision - Ukrainians are forbidden to receive any help while pro-Rus get heavy equipment and lethal weaponry.

[beastcat 14]

One year since the Maidan Shootings.

[St. Jimmy 272]

While sifting through the trenches of Debaltseve Russian forces have captured three (or more) AN-TPQ mortar fire radars (4.25) and say something about Polish comrades.

In Russian propaganda they tell a lot of baloney about Polish army in Donbas and it was very hard to show the proper evidence and until this very moment where they found the first proof - a Polish (Czech) bandage! So funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjf95WiAo3g

Yeah hard to say where they even get the numbers of the Polish troops. Some separtists say there were 600 Polish mercenaries in Debaltseve and that's very hard to believe. Could be some naturally when they're neighbour countries but hundreds doesn't sound believable.

Seems like separtists got a lot of loot from the Cauldron

Got to really wonder why they didn't fall back much earlier and regoup further back with that stuff and maybe better supported.

[beastcat 14]

"2S19 Msta-S in Debaltseve"

So much for the whole "remove arty from the front" stuff

[Tonci87 163]

Mstas? Russia is really giving them some fine toys....

They are indeed better equiped than most EU nations.

[ProfTournesol 956]

(BBC News) Ukraine crisis: Russians to rally in Moscow to mark 'coup'

Russian government supporters are to rally in the capital Moscow and other parts of the country to mark the first anniversary of what they view as the "coup" in neighbouring Ukraine.

Russia's state media are promoting the event under the slogan "We won't forget! We won't forgive!"

I'm speechless.

[beastcat 14]

Local miners. From Buryatia.

[Tonci87 163]

(BBC News) Ukraine crisis: Russians to rally in Moscow to mark 'coup'

I'm speechless.

Wow.... Can someone please tell me that the average Russian isn´t THAT stupid?

[beastcat 14]

Wow.... Can someone please tell me that the average Russian isn´t THAT stupid?

Protests and rallies are forbidden in Russia, unless the government organizes it. So pretty much all rallies and demonstrations in russia are staged by the government. Well, that and the fact that according to russian polls putins approval rate is above 80%.

[ProfTournesol 956]

@afp - 21/02/2015 - 12:23

debaltseve battle killed 179 troops, says ukraine presidential aide

[Sub-Human 10]

(BBC News) Ukraine crisis: Russians to rally in Moscow to mark 'coup'

I'm speechless.

This protest is staged (save for a couple skinheads and LDPR trash) - for example, Russian teachers are forced to attend.

https://navalny.com/p/4135/

The Education and Science Workers' Union emailed a document to most Moscow schools, with a rather comic statement:

"Year since Maidan. We won't forget, we won't forgive!" [is organized] to attract society to the issue of strengthening the patriotic forces for the defence of the Fatherland.

We reqiure 6 people from your [school]... Please send the list of attendees to this email.

This reminds me of the 2011 Russia protests - university students were threatened with being kicked out if they attended any of the rallies. Likewise, employees were under the risk of being fired. This time, the roles are reversed.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Sub-Human

[sudayev 27]

During the interview for Russian tv former Ukrainian president and criminal Viktor Y. admitted about returning to newly liberated parts Ukraine and standing against the current Ukrainian authorities.

“Ideas of returning [to Ukraine] and lead a protest movement have been constantly on my mind, but everybody had an unequivocal opinion that if I had returned, enemies would have done everything to destroy me. My associates were against my return to Ukraine. The events unfolded rapidly, and I regret that I could not do it,†he said in an interview.

“As soon as it becomes possible, I will return and bend every effort to make life of Ukrainians easier,†Yanukovych added.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2015/02/21/world/europe/21reuters-ukraine-crisis-yanukovich-russia.html?ref=world&_r=0

Edited February 21, 2015 by Sudayev

[Maio 293]

A video covering the Ukr. retreat from Debaltseve. If you ignore the dramatic editing style, it's an interesting watch .

[Tonci87 163]

A video covering the Ukr. retreat from Debaltseve. If you ignore the dramatic editing style, it's an interesting watch .

Can it be confirmed that the separatists promised them a green corridor?

Edited February 21, 2015 by Tonci87

[beastcat 14]

They were supposedly giving 5$ to people participating in the demo.

I guess the video by itself doesn't really prove anything, but still.

But there is also this.

February 21 (Saturday)

We invite everyone to between 16 and 65 years

At the sanctioned rally

COLLECTION at 11:30 m. Theatre in the center of the room

Meet all with a sign ELENA-TV

(Be sure to come and join the list!)

Record on the place of your arrival !!!

Dress for the weather (heat)

Approximate ending at 14: 30-15: 00

Payment at the end of 300 rubles

T. 8910-440-88-02 (Elena) on the phone records no

"Putin is better than Hitler" (Old photo)

"Putin and Kadirov wont allow for a Maidan" (Current photos)

More stuff they "found".

Edited February 21, 2015 by beastcat

[krycek 349]

Sorry to say but UA should have expected the russian "green corridor" is a trap,no one learns from the past even when it's so recent.Also Poroshenko is full of crap with his "organized retreat".It seems the main issue is still the same like last year,lack of modern hardware especially heavy weapons.

If EU and US wants to help Ukraine they should find their balls and actually send heavy stuff like Obama said because it's sure as hell that every rebel has a tank and a grad in his backyard from uncle Putin.UA will win this fight with heavy weapons,not imported first aid kits,MREs,blankets and ancient(and not even armed) APCs that some countries found in some of their forgotten warehouses.

NATO needs to understand that the only way to deal with Putin's aggressiveness is to respond the same,not with throwing sanctions at him which he couldn't care less.You don't go to a bully with "Beg to pardon sir,I don't appreciate how you behave".

Of course if EU is afraid of escalation then it's ok to continue as before and just pray Putin might get bored with testing Nato's airspace and Ukraine.That worked greatly so far.They don't get that the bear is testing the fence and if there is no response then the bear might consider to do whatever the hell he wants in Eastern Europe.

Oh yeah,you guys missed Kerry??He's thinking for more sanctions against Russia,man they sure gonna show those pesky russians with those mean and sharp sanctions.This time is going to work because he used real tough words.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/21/europe/ukraine-conflict/

This comes to my mind:

Edited February 21, 2015 by Krycek

[spooky lynx 73]

If EU and US wants to help Ukraine they should find their balls and actually send heavy stuff like Obama said because it's sure as hell that every rebel has a tank and a grad in his backyard from uncle Putin.UA will win this fight with heavy weapons,not imported first aid kits,MREs,blankets and ancient(and not even armed) APCs that some countries found in some of their forgotten warehouses.

Have you heard about recently granted counter-mortar US radars? Two damaged, one captured by separatists. Also see what happens with M1 tanks sold to Iraq. Some of them are in IS hands, some are already seen in... Hisballah hands. Like other US hardware. So when fourth mobilisation is screwed and hundreds of Ukrainian males run away to nearby countries to escape it no US hardware will help. Current UA hardware (T-64s with ERA, BMP-2s, BTRs, arty systems etc.) are quite potent to deal with rebels. But the main reason of all UA losses and defeats is not lack of hardware abilities but incompetence of commanders and lack of morale.

So... I'm not against sending any modern US or EU military stuff. Kubinka museum will appreciate new pieces in its collection and other military institutes will find interesting to study it.;)

And for those who said about Crimean referendum happened at gunpoint and does not represent real will of Crimeans. Here's fresh GFK report made for Berta Communications with the help of Canada Fund for Local Initiatives. It states that 82% of Crimeans support the reunion with Russia, 11% rather support and 4% are against it. So it doesn't look like people were forced to giv their votes for reunion. Sure you may say that all the interviewed were FSB agents but still...

[oxmox 73]

Can it be confirmed that the separatists promised them a green corridor?

Poroshenko did insist already in the Minsk Talks that no cauldron did exist and allegedly that was one of the major point of issue.

Vice News: "Poroshenko refused to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin for a "green corridor" to allow the Ukrainians to leave the city"

The conditions were to use the corridor without weapons and armor.

The Telegraph: "....an offer by the separatist leadership to open a similar "green corridor" from Debaltseve if the Ukrainians laid down their weapons. Vladimir Putin backed that plan at a press conference in Budapest on Tuesday night." (Tuesday this week)

I did post about the offer by the seperatists released on their Novorussian news page, but I have not seen any news release which talk about a promise by the seperatists. This would not even fit with the statements by the Ukraine.

Poroshenko did hold an official statement after the withdraw of their troops in which he claimed, that an organized withdraw did proof no ecirclement existed.

Anyway, we all have seen and read that the reality did look different, rather the opposite of his statements.

.....though one question is probably interesting: since when did the encirclement actually exist, already before or during the Minsk talks or in the days after it. Poroshenko was always talking about a beachhead but not about an encirclement.

Edited February 21, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

Have you heard about recently granted counter-mortar US radars? Two damaged, one captured by separatists. Also see what happens with M1 tanks sold to Iraq. Some of them are in IS hands, some are already seen in... Hisballah hands. Like other US hardware. So when fourth mobilisation is screwed and hundreds of Ukrainian males run away to nearby countries to escape it no US hardware will help. Current UA hardware (T-64s with ERA, BMP-2s, BTRs, arty systems etc.) are quite potent to deal with rebels. But the main reason of all UA losses and defeats is not lack of hardware abilities but incompetence of commanders and lack of morale.

So... I'm not against sending any modern US or EU military stuff. Kubinka museum will appreciate new pieces in its collection and other military institutes will find interesting to study it.;)

And for those who said about Crimean referendum happened at gunpoint and does not represent real will of Crimeans. Here's fresh GFK report made for Berta Communications with the help of Canada Fund for Local Initiatives. It states that 82% of Crimeans support the reunion with Russia, 11% rather support and 4% are against it. So it doesn't look like people were forced to giv their votes for reunion. Sure you may say that all the interviewed were FSB agents but still...

Except that the guy who organized it openly admited that it all was a scam. :rolleyes:

[krycek 349]

Have you heard about recently granted counter-mortar US radars? Two damaged, one captured by separatists. Also see what happens with M1 tanks sold to Iraq. Some of them are in IS hands, some are already seen in... Hisballah hands. Like other US hardware. So when fourth mobilisation is screwed and hundreds of Ukrainian males run away to nearby countries to escape it no US hardware will help. Current UA hardware (T-64s with ERA, BMP-2s, BTRs, arty systems etc.) are quite potent to deal with rebels. But the main reason of all UA losses and defeats is not lack of hardware abilities but incompetence of commanders and lack of morale.

Oh yeah they found a few anti-mortar radars from US,UA will sure win with those now in their inventory,they could beat down the Grads and T72s from Putin with those anti-mortar radars.You also forget that those T64s are not the same like those "rebel" T72s with latest tech on them.The difference is that UA hardware is barely maintained while the rebels get new toys from Putin everytime they have losses.

You also forgot that the rebels were on the brink of defeat last year until they made some incantations and divinity finally responded by teleporting crapload of weapons,tanks,artillery to them.They were also joined in this crusade by russian soldiers on break that left their bases with tanks,apcs and other hardware.

[mistyronin 1181]

.....though one question is probably interesting: since when did the encirclement actually exist, already before or during the Minsk talks or in the days after it. Poroshenko was always talking about a beachhead but not about an encirclement.

According to Maio's video, the Ukrainian troops stayed one week encircled, so since Friday 13th two days after the Minsk II agreement.

[oxmox 73]

Have you heard about recently granted counter-mortar US radars? Two damaged, one captured by separatists. Also see what happens with M1 tanks sold to Iraq. Some of them are in IS hands, some are already seen in... Hisballah hands. Like other US hardware. So when fourth mobilisation is screwed and hundreds of Ukrainian males run away to nearby countries to escape it no US hardware will help. Current UA hardware (T-64s with ERA, BMP-2s, BTRs, arty systems etc.) are quite potent to deal with rebels. But the main reason of all UA losses and defeats is not lack of hardware abilities but incompetence of commanders and lack of morale.

So... I'm not against sending any modern US or EU military stuff. Kubinka museum will appreciate new pieces in its collection and other military institutes will find interesting to study it.;)

And for those who said about Crimean referendum happened at gunpoint and does not represent real will of Crimeans. Here's fresh GFK report made for Berta Communications with the help of Canada Fund for Local Initiatives. It states that 82% of Crimeans support the reunion with Russia, 11% rather support and 4% are against it. So it doesn't look like people were forced to giv their votes for reunion. Sure you may say that all the interviewed were FSB agents but still...

The results about the referendum was more or less foreseen due to a high amount of russian ethnics, by experts in TV discussions and also by the former US Ambassador for the Ukraine itself as an example and shown in the video. Its not the first referendum and there were several, including a referendum about the crimea sovereignty in 1991. Internal struggles did always exist between the east and west before this current conflict and political disputes when it comes to the Sevastopol question.

Video about the foreseen results of the referendum from the former US Ambassador for the Ukraine :

Go to 0:35min.

And about the captured counter-radar equipment, these were delivered in November by the US, :

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2014/11/24/US-supplies-Ukraine-with-counter-mortar-radar-systems/7201416841149/

.....probably a part of the none-lethal aid.

Edited February 21, 2015 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

I'm sure now that most of Ukrainians have fled from the so called DNR, you'll have the same kind of result if a referendum was held.

[Maio 293]

I'm sure now that most of Ukrainians have fled from the so called DNR, you'll have the same kind of result if a referendum was held.

Hm, or they can form their own little city state :)

Geo politics aside, I wonder how long it takes to outfit your front line troops with matching fatigues :rolleyes: Or at least 2 different patterns...

Look at

guy.