Ukraine General

[Tonci87 163]

Hm, or they can form their own little city state :)

Geo politics aside, I wonder how long it takes to outfit your front line troops with matching fatigues :rolleyes: Or at least 2 different patterns...

Look at

guy.

The guy in blue could be a member of the police volunteer battalion Lviv. Just guessing here.

[oxmox 73]

I'm sure now that most of Ukrainians have fled from the so called DNR, you'll have the same kind of result if a referendum was held.

The East Ukraine has 14,5 million inhabitants and officially numbers of the refugees nears one million. I did read, the separatists control two entities, the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic and the Lugansk People’s Republic, which together comprise a population of around 5 million people.

Btw, I thought we are taking about the referendum for the crimea.

---------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 PM ----------

Espresso TV, from Kiev/Ukraine. Interview with a Military Expert, head of the Officer Corps/Assembly about a solution to the conflict and critics.

The video is from the end of last year in december but neverless very interesting to watch.(uploaded 01.12.2014)

Especially some of the critics and background infos are not that often seen from ukrainian news, at least those released in english.

Among other points....

---> Interesting is to hear that the conflict does not fall under international law, because officially no war exist they just have an anti-terrorist campaign. Therfore the International Red Cross cant help officially with humanitarian corridors for example.

--> (???) millions of people written off as terrorists and statements exist to nullify their citizenship, which is not possible by their constitution.

--> certain forces want to either devide the country or make money off the military conflict.

Edited February 21, 2015 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

Exhibit of captured stuff in Kiev.

More photos at the link above.

AP - Russian conscripts tell of fears of being sent to Ukraine

When Alexander was due to finish his year of mandatory military service in October, his commander told him he had no choice: He had to sign a contract to extend his stay in the army and head to southern Russia for troop exercises.

The 20-year-old knew that meant he might end up fighting alongside pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine. Other soldiers he talked to had been sent there.

His commanders "didn't talk about it, but other soldiers told us about it, primarily paratroopers who had been there," Alexander said in an interview with The Associated Press, which is not using his surname for his safety.

Human rights groups have received dozens of complaints in the past month alone from Russian conscripts like Alexander who say they have been strong-armed or duped into signing contracts with the military to become professional soldiers, after which they were sent to participate in drills in the southern Rostov region.

"Those who have been there (to the Rostov region) before know that in actual fact it means Ukraine."

Because only contract soldiers can legally be dispatched abroad, worries are spreading among families that inexperienced young conscripts could be sent to fight in eastern Ukraine.

Edited February 21, 2015 by beastcat

[spooky lynx 73]

Oh yeah they found a few anti-mortar radars from US,UA will sure win with those now in their inventory,they could beat down the Grads and T72s from Putin with those anti-mortar radars.You also forget that those T64s are not the same like those "rebel" T72s with latest tech on them.The difference is that UA hardware is barely maintained while the rebels get new toys from Putin everytime they have losses.

Please don't overestimate Kontakt-5 ERA from late 80's that is fitted on few T-72Bs. T-64/-72 with Kontakt-1 ERA form the largest part of seps tank inventory. Just like those in UA army. And amount of late models of T-72B with K-5 is even smaller than that of modernised T-64BMs in UA army (I don't even say about T-72B with K-5 and some new optics). So in most cases UA T-64s meet their twins in the battle. The same goes to other armored vehicles. I watch news reports from battle zone daily and everything I see is regular BMPs, BTRs and other stuff that is used by UA army. Maybe some groups use more advanced vehicles but from what I see - in all latest and largest battles only old vehicles are used.

And again I'd say. The hardware does not mean much when it's manned by poorly motivated and trained crews. Arabs had latest Soviet hardware since early 60's but that didn't help them much in Six day war (when Israelis still widely used WW2 hardware like modified Shermans and M3 APCs). South-Vietnamese air force was one of the largest in the world at that time and was equipped good. That didn't help the regime. And current US hardware is not the magic stick also that make all that Ukrainians who are escaping the draft to army now willing to go to front and fight. Also it won't magically bring skilled commanders to UA army. From 1991 until current days main thing they did is not training but selling the weapons and ammo across the world.

You also forgot that the rebels were on the brink of defeat last year until they made some incantations and divinity finally responded by teleporting crapload of weapons,tanks,artillery to them.They were also joined in this crusade by russian soldiers on break that left their bases with tanks,apcs and other hardware.

Please don't read Ukrainian newspapers:) Seps had serious difficulties, yes. But they were never on the brink of defeat.

[beastcat 14]

Please don't read Ukrainian newspapers:) Seps had serious difficulties, yes. But they were never on the brink of defeat.

The city of Donetsk and a few surrounding villages was everything that was left of the DNR, with it being completely surrounded and cut off from the LNR, which consisted of the mostly surrounded Lugansk and a bit of territory at the russian border, so no, they were on the brink of defeat.

[kireta21 13]

82% of Crimeans support the reunion with Russia, 11% rather support and 4% are against it

Not that they have much choice now, do they? Ukraine may see what happened as betrayal, and they are sure aware of it. Staying within Russia seem safer solution now, especially since for all they know from Russian media Ukraine went full Nazi

So it doesn't look like people were forced to giv their votes for reunion.

Remind me what were options in referendum? First choice was to be absorbed into Russia, second to become independent state (as per 1992 constitution), which effectively means becomming someone's puppet state.

Or did I mix something?

[maturin 12]

The city of Donetsk and a few surrounding villages was everything that was left of the DNR, with it being completely surrounded and cut off from the LNR, which consisted of the mostly surrounded Lugansk and a bit of territory at the russian border, so no, they were on the brink of defeat.

The Ukrainian army did not have the ability to take cities the size of Donetsk and Lugansk. They weren't even able to seal the border.

Grozny was incomparably smaller than Donetsk, and the Russians had to level it with aviation and artillery. The inhabitants of the Donbas should be grateful that the 'fascists' in Kiev are big-hearted softies compared to the Kremlin.

[Tonci87 163]

The Ukrainian army did not have the ability to take cities the size of Donetsk and Lugansk. They weren't even able to seal the border.

Grozny was incomparably smaller than Donetsk, and the Russians had to level it with aviation and artillery. The inhabitants of the Donbas should be grateful that the 'fascists' in Kiev are big-hearted softies compared to the Kremlin.

Actually the Soviets leveled Grozny out of pure stupidity and because they were out of ideas/didn´t know any better. Everyone knows that a city gets easier to defend the more destroyed it is. The Ukrainian army wasn´t able to close the border because they were shelled out of Russia everytime they tried to do it.

[beastcat 14]

Video version of the article.

[oxmox 73]

Ukraine preparing for 'full-scale war,' says former envoy to Canada (CBC)

Vadym Prystaiko, now deputy foreign minister, calls on the West to 'stiffen up in the spine'

Ukraine's deputy foreign minister says he is preparing for "full-scale war" against Russia and wants Canada to help by supplying lethal weapons and the training to use them.

Vadym Prystaiko, who until last fall was Ukraine's ambassador to Canada, says the world must not be afraid of joining Ukraine in the fight against a nuclear power.

"The stakes are really high," Prystaiko says, pointing out that Ukraine has now closed its border crossing with Russia. "We don't want to scare everybody, but we are preparing for full-scale war."

"However dangerous it sounds, we have to stop [Putin] somehow. For the sake of the Russian nation as well, not just for the Ukrainians and Europe."

"Unfortunately, we will probably pose a very serious question for the rest of the world: How can we react to this new challenge? We haven't had it for 50 years in Europe. Now it's back again."

"We would like Canada to send lethal weapons to Ukraine," he said. "Weapons to allow us to defend ourselves."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukraine-preparing-for-full-scale-war-says-former-envoy-to-canada-1.2964887

Heroes of the Euromaidan Revolution are Leaving Ukraine (ViceNews)

Ukrainians are fleeing the country in record numbers: since February 2014, 600,000 Ukrainians have sought asylum or other forms of legal stay in neighboring countries, and thousands more have moved to the U.S. and the European Union. Others have fled illegally: Poland reported a 100 percent increase in the number of detentions of illegal Ukrainian immigrants last year.

But the emigrants are not only asylum seekers. They are the Western-leaning intelligentsia, the professional classes with relatives abroad, and the students of the Maidan who first organized protests against former President Viktor Yanukovych's kleptocratic and violent government in November 2013.

The recent ceasefire has done little to quell the violence.

• Inflation is skyrocketing, hitting 25 percent in December.
  
• The hryvnia, Ukraine's national currency, has lost two-thirds of its value against the dollar over the past year.
  
• This devaluation has crushed Ukrainians' purchasing power, particularly for western goods, and severely limited their mobility: the average monthly Ukrainian salary was $384 in January 2014. By December 2014, it was down to just $261.
  

There is little reason to stay; the brain drain from Ukraine is accelerating.

"Many will not go back," she predicts. Spending months protesting for an unfulfilled vision was taxing: "I can't say that I want to return home soon. As I was standing on the Maidan last winter, I realized how difficult it would be for me to stay in Kyiv."

He left behind his family, girlfriend, and an NGO that he helped build. Still, moving to the U.S. was logical, and perhaps inevitable. Ukraine's educational system is in shambles. Plagued by uneven teaching and corruption, students often pay for grades, rendering degrees meaningless.

Sasha has abandoned activism. The past year has been so discombobulating that she doesn't know what she or Ukraine stands for anymore. "During the Maidan, everything was clear. We fought for our civil rights, the ability to be considered human, and for the right to vote." Now, Sasha says, everything is much more opaque. She will support volunteers and the families of those fighting in the east, but refuses to "blindly support any party" or movement.

But despite receiving praise and awards from Washington and Brussels, the reforms they have championed have stalled. Ukraine is arguably more corrupt today than it was under Yanukovych.

Like Sasha, most students of the Maidan who remain in Ukraine are deeply disillusioned. They have little faith in the new and fragile government. A recent poll shows that President Petro Poroshenko's popularity has fallen below 50 percent for the first time since winning the election in May.

http://www.vice.com/read/the-heroes-of-the-euromaidan-revolution-are-leaving-ukraine-979

Edited February 21, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

Ok, let's imagine that the Russian Militia give an exact data of demonstrators, that each of them do really believe in the cause, and that none of them has been forced nor payed to attend, that Russia is a democratic country with freedom of speech ( yeah I know its a lot to imagine, but let's make that exercise ).

35 thousand people is nothing compared to almost any other demonstration in a European city ( I have attended to protests that had from 100,000 to more than a million demonstrators ).

I don't even get why is it a piece of news... :j:

( Al Jazeera ) Mass protest in Moscow against 'coup' in Kiev

Moscow police said some 35,000 turned up for Saturday's event.

[Tonci87 163]

Ok, let's imagine that the Russian Militia give an exact data of demonstrators, that each of them do really believe in the cause, and that none of them has been forced nor payed to attend, that Russia is a democratic country with freedom of speech ( yeah I know its a lot to imagine, but let's make that exercise ).

35 thousand people is nothing compared to almost any other demonstration in a European city ( I have attended to protests that had from 100,000 to more than a million demonstrators ).

I don't even get why is it a piece of news... :j:

( Al Jazeera ) Mass protest in Moscow against 'coup' in Kiev

A city with so many people in it. 35000 is hardly a "mass protest"

[maturin 12]

Actually the Soviets leveled Grozny out of pure stupidity and because they were out of ideas/didn´t know any better. Everyone knows that a city gets easier to defend the more destroyed it is. The Ukrainian army wasn´t able to close the border because they were shelled out of Russia everytime they tried to do it.

The Soviets? What?

I am talking about 2001. Putin leveled Grozny. One of his first acts as president, not counting the sacrifice of all the crewmen on the Kursk.

And somehow the media only realized how much of a scumbag he is a few years ago, and then they call it an information war...

[Sub-Human 10]

Ok, let's imagine that the Russian Militia give an exact data of demonstrators, that each of them do really believe in the cause, and that none of them has been forced nor payed to attend, that Russia is a democratic country with freedom of speech ( yeah I know its a lot to imagine, but let's make that exercise ).

35 thousand people is nothing compared to almost any other demonstration in a European city ( I have attended to protests that had from 100,000 to more than a million demonstrators ).

I don't even get why is it a piece of news... :j:

( Al Jazeera ) Mass protest in Moscow against 'coup' in Kiev

For Russia - that's a lot of people. Most are completely apathetic. Not supporting of Putin, maybe, but definitely not an active opposition.

[Tonci87 163]

The Soviets? What?

I am talking about 2001. Putin leveled Grozny. One of his first acts as president, not counting the sacrifice of all the crewmen on the Kursk.

And somehow the media only realized how much of a scumbag he is a few years ago, and then they call it an information war...

My misstake, of course I meant Russia^^

[Sub-Human 10]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfoYdHRa8Jg#t=37

More proof that Anti-Maidan is another forced demonstration (in this scenario, the student holding the poster 'These men should go to jail', doesn't even know who they are - and admits being forced to go by university).

[Rydygier 1302]

http://www.polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artykul/1383795,Plany-ataku-na-Ukraine-Rosyjska-gazeta-ujawnia-tajne-dokumenty-Kremla

The Kremlin had a plan to invade the Ukraine long before the overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych. Russian liberal "Novaya Gazeta" reached an official government document that shows the strategy of the war.

Invasion plans were developed between 4 and 15 February last year - says newspaper's chief editor Dmitry Muratov. So a week before he fled from Ukraine to Russia then President Viktor Yanukovych. The paper then define the Ukrainian president as "a man without morals and willpower, which fall to be expected at any moment."

The whole strategy of attack on Ukraine includes plans to break up the country into autonomous regions, and their annexation. - The main attack has hit the Crimea and Kharkiv circuit, the goal is to join the eastern regions - write the authors of the plan.

In an interview with "Echo of Moscow" Muratov said that the strategy also involved a propaganda campaign that was to justify the Russian attack on the international stage.

Editor-in-chief of "Novaya Gazeta" said that he could not determine with certainty the authors of the plan, however, was probably among them Russian oligarch Konstantin Malofajew. He also had to finance the creation of pro-Russian uprising in Crimea and give to the mayor of Sevastopol one million US dollars bribe. According to Dmitry Muratov, it can be assumed that the document went then to the Russian president's advisers, and then to Vladimir Putin, who approved it.

[beastcat 14]

Meanwhile in Donetsk: Local miners and tractor driver are helping residents to check the stability of their car windows.

http://youtu.be/d69KuU77uL0

[Maio 293]

Meanwhile in Donetsk: Local miners and tractor driver are helping residents to check the stability of their car windows.

Chechen miners/tractor drivers? I'm sure there is a good reason for them braking that window... maybe they locked a box of collimator sights in the car :)

[maturin 12]

That video is hilarious! He looks so surprised when the window doesn't break at the first hit! And then you can see the moment where they chicken out and decide not to shoot it open.

I assume no one was yelling at them, but I can't hear the audio on this computer.

[Tonci87 163]

That video is hilarious! He looks so surprised when the window doesn't break at the first hit! And then you can see the moment where they chicken out and decide not to shoot it open.

I assume no one was yelling at them, but I can't hear the audio on this computer.

And that was their only smart moment when they decided not to shoot it open. A bullet can riccochet off certain car windows if you fire at a low enough angle.

[beastcat 14]

Russians complaining that they were not allowed to loot the building when it wasn't burning

http://youtu.be/x7iJgckOaRw

Reminds me of this:

Russians protecting the belongings of the locals in Georgia.

Edited February 22, 2015 by beastcat

[TheMightyKovacs 6]

Ah, if only I could speak Russian...:cry:

[oxmox 73]

UK TV/Channel 4

People digging for food in the ruins of Debaltseve

Alex Thomson enters Debaltseve - the key town that's fallen to pro-Russian rebels. Inside he found elderly residents scrabbling in the snow for food left behind by retreating Ukrainian soldiers.

Vice News

The Fine Line the US Is Straddling In Providing Defensive Support to Ukraine

As Ukrainian military forces and civilians continue to get pummeled by pro-Russia rebels on the front lines in eastern Ukraine, the US has committed to aid Ukraine by providing new military systems. Late last year, the US sent the first wave of advanced anti-mortar radar systems, along with some trainers, to support Ukraine in its current conflict.

In November, the US committed $118 million in aid to help Ukraine's security forces in response to Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko's formal request July 7 for non-lethal aid from the international community in order to "ensure the ceasefire and contain the aggression." The aid money is also separate from $2 billion of loan guarantees the US committed to Ukraine in January 2014 to help stabilize its economy.

The first three of 20 promised AN/TPQ-49 lightweight counter-mortar radars (illustrating the Army's knack for snappy nomenclature) arrived in Ukraine along with Vice President Joe Biden on November 21.

This system straddles a fine line between providing defensive support to the Ukrainians, and giving them offensive military weaponry to fight pro-Russia forces. This is due, in part, to the fact that this system is all about providing information, and information doesn't break down neatly into "defensive" and "offensive" categories.

The start of a training program led by the US military at the Yavariv training center in western Ukraine could pave the way for scaling up US support against the separatist rebels. Every step forward — even on ambiguously "defensive" systems — could be interpreted as a threat from the Russians, and could endanger the delicate peace talks, and what remains of ceasefire agreements.

These systems may still technically fall in the "non-lethal aid" category, but are right on the border of defensive systems and could very easily contribute to offensive operations. As the US and its allies continue to put diplomatic and economic pressure on the pro-Russia rebels, there may be similar shipments of defensive systems that could easily augment offensive operations.

https://news.vice.com/article/the-fine-line-the-us-is-straddling-in-providing-defensive-support-to-ukraine

Edited February 23, 2015 by oxmox

[oxmox 73]

The Soviets? What?

I am talking about 2001. Putin leveled Grozny. One of his first acts as president, not counting the sacrifice of all the crewmen on the Kursk.

And somehow the media only realized how much of a scumbag he is a few years ago, and then they call it an information war...

The bombings of Grozny were really horrible...

But you know, during the time Russia did notice that radical Islamists got funded with money and fighters from

all over the world inclusive Al Qaeda (Saudi Arabia & Co ?), which did plan to create a radical Islamic Theocracy based on Saudi Wahabism, it was waved aside by US/western countries.

Until the 11th september 2001 did happen and the bombings and war in Afghanistan did rampage, expiriencing their own war against Islamists.

So much about your definition of scumbags.....

Edited February 23, 2015 by oxmox