mistyronin 1181 Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Is there no OSCE watching the scene from the ukrainian positions ? Yup there are OSCE monitors' patrols all around the front-lines ( in both sides): ( Washington Times ) Continued fighting around key transport hub threatens Ukraine cease-fire The OSCE dispatched 20 patrols Sunday, but the head of the monitoring mission said pro-Russia rebels were blocking their access to Debaltseve, according to The Associated Press. ( DW ) Eastern Ukraine ceasefire largely holding, except around Debaltseve Observers from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), who under the terms of the ceasefire agreed in Minsk last week are meant to monitor the ceasefire, were expected to make a second attempt to reach Debaltseve on Monday. OSCE representatives said pro-Russia separatists prevented them from reaching the town on Sunday. "Of course we can open fire (on Debaltseve). It is our territory," senior rebel commander Eduard Basurin told the Reuters news agency. "The territory is internal: ours. And internal is internal. But along the line of confrontation there is no shooting." A Kremlin spokesman said the truce must be implemented "unconditionally" without specifically mentioning Debaltseve. ( Sputnik News ) OSCE to Monitor Ukraine Ceasefire in Debaltseve, Mariupol, Donetsk Airport The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) has reinforced its mission in eastern Ukraine to monitor the ceasefire in the conflict's flashpoints, including Debaltseve, Mariupol and the Donetsk Airport, Russia's envoy to the OSCE told RIA Novosti Sunday."OSCE has been monitoring the ceasefire since Sunday night. Extra monitors have been introduced, there were 238 of them; by Sunday morning their number was increased to 350. They are split into groups, they defined locations for control, including critical points – Debaltseve, Mariupol and the Donetsk Airport," Andrei Kelin said. Edited February 16, 2015 by MistyRonin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Of course we can open fire (on Debaltseve). It is our territory," senior rebel commander Eduard Basurin told the Reuters news agency. "The territory is internal: ours. And internal is internal. But along the line of confrontation there is no shooting." Well, this is bullshit and the same counts for rejecting withdrawel of the artillery by the Ukraine. In the meanwhile they both demand to start the withdrawel first. :j: The blame game season opens ............. The situation about Debaltsevo and a solution should have been really defined in the Minsk Agreements. Edited February 16, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 16, 2015 The situation about Debaltsevo and a solution should have been really defined in the Minsk Agreements. AFAIK from a journalist acquaintance of mine, the situation in Delbaltsevo was discussed during 8 of the 16 hours of the Minsk Agreements. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) AFAIK from a journalist acquaintance of mine, the situation in Delbaltsevo was discussed during 8 of the 16 hours of the Minsk Agreements. And this was probably a major controversial subject, since these several thousand troops are a major force for the ukrainian government. How many are fighting altogether against the seperatists ~20.000+ ? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rebels offer corridor for Ukraine troops out of key town (Reuters) - Pro-Russian rebels said on Monday they would open a safe corridor for Ukrainian troops out of the encircled town of Debaltseve in east Ukraine on condition they surrender the territory, an offer the Kiev military promptly rejected. Ukrainian military commentators say the number of encircled Ukrainian soldiers could be as high as 7,000. "We suggest that the Ukrainian soldiers in Debaltseve stay alive. There is just one condition: that they lay down their weapons. We didn't talk about them becoming prisoners. Lay down your weapons and get out of here," said commander Eduard Basurin. "There are the Minsk agreements, according to which Debaltseve is ours. We will not leave," he said by phone. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/16/us-ukraine-crisis-corridor-idUSKBN0LK12F20150216 The ukrainian military rejects an evacuation from Debaltsevo....... Rebel officials said on Monday they would be prepared to open a corridor for evacuation of Ukrainian troops from the pocket provided they leave their weapons behind. A Ukrainian military spokesman rejected the offer, telling reporters that under the terms of the Minsk agreement “Debaltseve is ours.†http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11416706/Ukraine-army-and-Russian-backed-separatists-refuse-to-withdraw-heavy-weapons.html Edited February 16, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kireta21 13 Posted February 16, 2015 AFAIK from a journalist acquaintance of mine, the situation in Delbaltsevo was discussed during 8 of the 16 hours of the Minsk Agreements. Guardian mentioned it as well, Putin simply refused, saying those troopers are supposed to surrender. He also attemped to set ceasefire week later, most likely to give not-his-boys enough time to take town. Rebel officials said on Monday they would be prepared to open a corridor for evacuation of Ukrainian troops from the pocket provided they leave their weapons behind. A Ukrainian military spokesman rejected the offer, telling reporters that under the terms of the Minsk agreement “Debaltseve is ours.†I'm not even suprised. It's pure gamble to accept. Why Ukrainians would trust them to actually honor this deal, and not change yet again their minds, once soldiers are disarmed? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 16, 2015 Guardian mentioned it as well, Putin simply refused, saying those troopers are supposed to surrender. He also attemped to set ceasefire week later, most likely to give not-his-boys enough time to take town.I'm not even suprised. It's pure gamble to accept. Why Ukrainians would trust them to actually honor this deal, and not change yet again their minds, once soldiers are disarmed? Let´s not forget that they already once promised Ukrainian soldiers free passage out of a pocket and then shot the retreating coloumn to pieces. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Let´s not forget that they already once promised Ukrainian soldiers free passage out of a pocket and then shot the retreating coloumn to pieces. Not even an honorable retreat as an option. By the way didnt Minsk 1 happen during the time the pocket did exist ? About Debaltsevo & Luhansk - definition of the Minsk Agreement by the seperatist leader. https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_828860261&feature=iv&src_vid=fpnfMQb-li4&v=Fu22mdFATAM Edited February 16, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 17, 2015 About Debaltsevo & Luhansk - definition of the Minsk Agreement by the seperatist leader. More or less what he already said on Saturday. IMHO it's practical impossible that peace can exist, if the pro-Russian make a completely different interpretation of what was talked in Minsk. The aim of the Minsk agreement is to give the Pro-Russian controlled territories way more autonomy inside Ukraine, all the guerrillas ( both Pro-Russian and Right sectors ) disarmed and foreigners outs, only the Ukrainian army as ruler controlling the original post-Crimea borders with Russia. What Zakhrachenko say that the pro-Russians aim for full control of the Donetsk Oblast empty of Ukrainian troops, with a de facto independence of the region from Ukraine and under Russian rule ( kind of like Transnistria in Moldova, that is de facto a Russian Federation puppet state ). And that Ukraine pays for everything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rydygier 1302 Posted February 17, 2015 I think, whole this Minsk agreement got much more attention (mostly due to media), than it deserved. Don't see, how it actually differ from earlier "ceasefire" jokes, at least in result. How there may be any cease fire, when separatists feel (east) wind in their sails and want to take as much, as they can. No agreement, where is no will of agreement. They want to fight, so they will, as long they can. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalcraze 290 Posted February 17, 2015 I dont know what russians are saying but wikipedia says the following: Wikipedia is a very trustworthy source isn't it? My "source" is me personally knowing people from Right Sector and Donbass. The only thing that Right Sector has to do with Donbass and Azov is that in 2014 some of its members joined Donbass and Azov due to Right Sector being incapable of fighting on its own (see below). Even in the recent events at Donetsk Airport Right Sector itself had only ~20 people taking part in the fight (one of them is a guy I know). They certainly never formed Azov and Donbass, just provided men for them among many. Azov and Donbass are direct subordinates of Ministry of Internal Affairs (cops) and thus get official recognition (as well as being provided with firepower by the government) as taking part in a war by the government and get official police ranks, whereas Right Sector does not since they refuse to serve under anyone (which puts them at risk as "illegal armed formation" if pursued by law enforcement later down the road). For an organization that is running the show according to the wiki that certainly makes no sense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted February 17, 2015 http://youtu.be/2344oaZnt6U The wonderful smell of peaceful ceasefire in the morning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 17, 2015 Wikipedia is a very trustworthy source isn't it?My "source" is me personally knowing people from Right Sector and Donbass. The only thing that Right Sector has to do with Donbass and Azov is that in 2014 some of its members joined Donbass and Azov due to Right Sector being incapable of fighting on its own (see below). Even in the recent events at Donetsk Airport Right Sector itself had only ~20 people taking part in the fight (one of them is a guy I know). They certainly never formed Azov and Donbass, just provided men for them among many. Azov and Donbass are direct subordinates of Ministry of Internal Affairs (cops) and thus get official recognition (as well as being provided with firepower by the government) as taking part in a war by the government and get official police ranks, whereas Right Sector does not since they refuse to serve under anyone (which puts them at risk as "illegal armed formation" if pursued by law enforcement later down the road). For an organization that is running the show according to the wiki that certainly makes no sense. I dont know what is really true and dont want to be a know it all, at the end they are a bit too specific details. But thats what the main media is writing: In this case a quick google search offered the following.... Yarosh assembles 'Donbas' special battalion Ukrainian presidential candidate and Head of the Right Sector organization Dmytro Yarosh has announced the formation of "Donbas" special battalion consisting of people from Donetsk region. http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/yarosh-assembles-donbas-special-battalion-344937.html The leader of the ultranationalists blamed by rebels for that attack, Dmitry Yarosh of the Right Sector militia, said on Wednesday he would suspend his presidential campaign to create an 800-man "Donbass battalion" to assist government forces to take back eastern Ukraine. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/23/us-warns-russia-ukraine-moscow-snap-military-exercises Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dwarden 1124 Posted February 17, 2015 "We suggest that the Ukrainian soldiers in Debaltseve stay alive. There is just one condition: that they lay down their weapons. We didn't talk about them becoming prisoners. Lay down your weapons and get out of here," said commander Eduard Basurin. anyone forgot that massacre last year? exactly same situation, they told the UKR troops they can leave and later changed it 'w/o weapons' and because the UKR were leaving with weapons, they simply opened fire with excuse 'they not meet the terms of leaving w/o any equipment' 100s dead on UKR side just in that incident ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted February 17, 2015 Indeed. Ukrainian troops there should retreat along with international observers, or blue helmets. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Battle of Ilovaisk was definately a tragedy, seems to be the General Khomchak was a stubborn in such a hopeless situation. Neverless the change of the conditions were really late but allegedly they did know it before their brakethrough. At the end there was no corridor at all and a sudden change of the negotiations isnt great either: Yet as morning broke on August 29 and the exhausted Ukrainian fighters assembled at the small hamlet of Mnohopillya to withdraw, the conditions for the orderly retreat suddenly changed, Ukrainian officers say. The Russians stalled, providing Ukrainian commanders with a new escape route, demanding the Ukrainians surrender their weapons and suggesting to Khomchak that he leave behind the volunteer battalions, vilified in the Russian media as fascist paramilitaries.“I said, No, we’ll leave as previously agreed,†Khomchak remembers. “I don’t know how I could have lived with myself as an officer if we’d laid down our arms. I gave the order to march in full battle readiness.†source euromaidanpress Donetsk Airport BBC Team reporting about artillery shellings & ceasefire "most appears to be outgoing fire" tells the journalist in front of a camera - in the same moment the sound from explosions of incomming fire interrupt the reporter followed by a close impact. Edited February 17, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 17, 2015 Interesting move, Russia doesn't want OSCE monitors to suprevise the Minsk Agreement in Ukraine: ( ITAR TASS ) Russia’s OSCE envoy urges to avoid sending peacemakers to Ukraine "Sending peacemakers to the demilitarized zone means freezing the conflict and for quite a long time," envoy Andrey Kelin told Rossiya-24 television news channel. ( BBC ) Ukraine crisis: Putin 'predicted Debaltseve fighting' Russian President Vladimir Putin says he expected fighting to continue in parts of eastern Ukraine despite the signing of a ceasefire deal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 17, 2015 Interesting move, Russia doesn't want OSCE monitors to suprevise the Minsk Agreement in Ukraine:( ITAR TASS ) Russia’s OSCE envoy urges to avoid sending peacemakers to Ukraine ( BBC ) Ukraine crisis: Putin 'predicted Debaltseve fighting' And there I thought that nothing this man sais or does can make me facepalm anymore. Well, I was wrong FPDR Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Some more stuff the separatists "found", including T-72Bs and T72-B3s Edited February 17, 2015 by beastcat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 17, 2015 New vice report, can´t link due to dead guy in it. They went to speak with separatists a few days before the ceasefire. Those guys are mental.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakerod 254 Posted February 18, 2015 New vice report, can´t link due to dead guy in it. They went to speak with separatists a few days before the ceasefire. Those guys are mental.... Yeah. You can go tell the rest of them [ukranians] what they caused here. Yep totally their fault. The Ukranians started the war. 12 of my unit died. [...] 12 men will not return to their mothers. I forgot Ukranians don't have mothers only Russians. /sarcasm I remember how happy I was when the Ukranians soldiers showed restraint at the beginning of this conflict. Not sure how I feel about that now. Whatever happened to that airborne unit that surrendered their vehicles btw? Did that actually happen or was that Russian propaganda? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sudayev 27 Posted February 18, 2015 Russia shelled Ukrainians from within its own territory, says studySatellite images, digital detective work and social media provide strongest evidence yet of Russian crossborder shelling, according to investigation http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/17/russia-shelled-ukrainians-from-within-its-own-territory-says-study Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 18, 2015 New vice report, can´t link due to dead guy in it. They went to speak with separatists a few days before the ceasefire. Those guys are mental.... Who wouldn't want to have them as relatives-in-law... But at least they don't hide it. They even wear USSR berets... I guess they are proud of all the Stalin's exploits and the soviet imperialist moves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakerod 254 Posted February 18, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/17/russia-shelled-ukrainians-from-within-its-own-territory-says-study I'm questioning that a bit. I feel like they didn't show enough proof there. I don't recall them ever showing it zoomed out and displaying town names or going across the border. That being said I'm 95% sure the Russians have shelled Ukraine or at the very least let the separatists do it from Russia. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) While Merkel and Hollande are playing the good cops, the US are playing the bad one : US Ambassador Samantha Power welcomed the agreement but said that Russia had to prove its commitment to peace.She said: "Stop arming the separatists. Stop sending hundreds of heavy weapons across the border in addition to your troops. Stop pretending you are not doing what you are doing." She added: "Russia signs agreements then does everything within its power to undermine them. Russia champions the sovereignty of nations and then acts as if a neighbour's borders do not exist." Ukrainian and Russian sources are saying that (some) Ukrainian troops are retreating from Debaltseve. Edited February 18, 2015 by ProfTournesol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted February 18, 2015 Ukrainian and Russian sources are saying that (some) Ukrainian troops are retreaing from Debaltseve. Looks more like they decided not to repeat Ilovaisk and retreat while its still possible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
