Ukraine General

[metalcraze 290]

russian propaganda channel openly shows russian army general being at Debaltseve area

(somebody has to command those T-72B3 tanks "peaceful citizens" bought at nearest 7/11 with their miner money after all)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY_Z-c4dmcg#t=2m35s

said general

So stop calling russian occupants "separatists"

[Tonci87 163]

It seems as if Ukrainian troops are pulling out of Debaltseve. It is not clear how they are doing that. Did they get free passage, accepted the terms of the separatists or fight their way out?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Poroshenko officially announced that Ukrainian forces are now retreating from Debaltseve.

EDIT : ninja'd ;)

[beastcat 14]

It seems as if Ukrainian troops are pulling out of Debaltseve. It is not clear how they are doing that. Did they get free passage, accepted the terms of the separatists or fight their way out?

Looks like the pocket wasn't closed.

Edit: Actually I remember some Ukrainian official said last week that they reopened it, but I'm not sure...

Edited February 18, 2015 by beastcat

[Tonci87 163]

So they are retreating in order? Ria Novosti reports that a few hundred ukrainian soldiers have surrendered.

[kireta21 13]

I don't recall them ever showing it zoomed out and displaying town names or going across the border.

There are older ones, like this, from when Ukraine attempted to close border. Of course, these backblast marks are tractors working in field.

[Tonci87 163]

Another vice report with the separatists from Donetsk airport. Those guys are incredibly stupid.

The camera also managed to capture dead Ukrainians with their hands tied. Yep, they executed prisoners. That separatist commander is a liying piece of filth as earlier videos have shown.

[beastcat 14]

Another vice report with the separatists from Donetsk airport. Those guys are incredibly stupid.

The camera also managed to capture dead Ukrainians with their hands tied. Yep, they executed prisoners. That separatist commander is a liying piece of filth as earlier videos have shown.

Strange how they talk about no russians, while looking exactly like the russian army and while this dude at the airport is wearing a Speznas patch. His other patch is a "polite people" patch, that's just pure mockery.

[sudayev 27]

I've seen many of those war reports filmed by Russian side of conflict and they often refer Ukrainians as dogs, animals, worms, chickens. Also the lack of respect to human body is very striking, they toss them like some sort of garbage, spit on them and curse. "Untermensch" and his far eastern counterpart - "maruta" are the only words that come to my mind when watching this :/

[oxmox 73]

You can be almost sure that hate exists on both sides - its war.

In general you see a lot more video footage from the seperatist side and less from ukrainian battalions.

For example in this video, ukrainian forces are surprised capturing locals from Donetsk. They probably thought to find russian soldiers, but the hate is noticeable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2YmnKNTw8w

Strange how they talk about no russians, while looking exactly like the russian army and while this dude at the airport is wearing a Speznas patch. His other patch is a "polite people" patch, that's just pure mockery.

Yeah this is of course questionable, but I have seen footage from vice news where soldiers were wearing uniforms from NATO countries i.e. with a german flag or whatever. That means just from watching a video you cant be 100% sure about the origin of the soldiers itself, you can make only assumptions. But you can be sure about the origin of the equipment and not only when it comes to uniforms, also armored vehicles or weapon types which are not available in the Ukraine.

Edited February 18, 2015 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

You can be almost sure that hate exists on both sides - its war.

In general you see a lot more video footage from the seperatist side and less from ukrainian battalions.

For example in this video, ukrainian forces are surprised capturing locals from Donetsk. They probably thought to find russian soldiers, but the hate is noticeable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2YmnKNTw8w

Actually those guys are russians from Krasnojarsk.

Edited February 18, 2015 by beastcat

[oxmox 73]

Actually those guys are russians from Krasnojarsk.

Makes no difference about the statements in the previous video and for the purpose I did post it as an example.

The video shows one face and you say those guys are all russians, well no idea....I dont understand the language.

Edited February 18, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

Well I have yet to see the Ukrainian army executing prisoners. The rebels seem to do that.

The Ukrainians also don´t parade their prisoners through towns.

If those rebel commanders ever get captured by the Ukrainians they will either be delivered to den Hague or sentenced to death by a Ukrainian military court. There is enough evidence for both things.

[oxmox 73]

Well I have yet to see the Ukrainian army executing prisoners. The rebels seem to do that.

The Ukrainians also don´t parade their prisoners through towns.

If those rebel commanders ever get captured by the Ukrainians they will either be delivered to den Hague or sentenced to death by a Ukrainian military court. There is enough evidence for both things.

Hopefully nobody is so naive here to believe that only one part is doing only questionable things and possible warcrimes. I doubt there was ever a war without such things.

The vice video for example shows really a situation with the hint for a warcrime, but these are assumptions again. From where do you know if these got really killed and not hit by shrapnells and why is it captured on camera and the commander is commenting about it instead hiding it from public. But if there are warcrimes which are proofen of course a criminal court is justified.

Edited February 18, 2015 by oxmox

[jakerod 254]

Hopefully nobody is so naive here to believe that only one part is doing only questionable things and possible warcrimes. I doubt there was ever a war without such things.

The vice video for example shows really a situation with the hint for a warcrime, but these are assumptions again. From where do you know if these got really killed and not hit by shrapnells and why is it captured on camera and the commander is commenting about it instead hiding it from public. But if there are warcrimes which are proofen of course a criminal court is justified.

Perhaps the commander didn't know they were filming that. I do agree with you though. It isn't evidence of anything. I can't even tell if they're Ukranian or Russian. They could be either. Anyone could've shot them. Or they could've been killed by artillery. Judging from what I have seen of the separatists though, I wouldn't put executions past them.

[oxmox 73]

Perhaps the commander didn't know they were filming that. I do agree with you though. It isn't evidence of anything. I can't even tell if they're Ukranian or Russian. They could be either. Anyone could've shot them. Or they could've been killed by artillery. Judging from what I have seen of the separatists though, I wouldn't put executions past them.

Probably...yes.

Well, quick claims without much thoughts irritates me.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VICE NEWS REPORT

Escape from Debaltseve: How One Convoy Made It Out of Ukraine's Besieged City

A mass text message was sent to cell phones in the area urging the Ukrainian forces to surrender: "Parasha (Poroshenko) betrayed us. He's fucking lying there's no encirclement. We're going to the Donetsk guys. Captivity not death."

"There wasn't a word about Debaltseve in the [Minsk] agreement," Zakharchenko argued. "This means that Ukraine has simply betrayed the 5,000 people in this encirclement."

The sad part is he may be right. Poroshenko reportedly refused to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin for a "green corridor" to allow the Ukrainians to leave the city

Of the 16 hours the leaders of France, Germany, Ukraine, and Russia negotiated in Minsk, eight were spent arguing over whether Debaltseve was actually caught in a "kettle," the Russian term for a military encirclement, according to Andrei Kolesnikov, a Kremlin pool journalist who has been allowed extensive access to Putin in the past.

"Vladimir Putin insisted that it was, and that if a ceasefire was agreed, it would be strange if it wouldn't be violated: Those in the kettle will surely try to break out of it, and those who are boiling the kettle will try to gather the steam," Kolesnikov wrote in the newspaper

The situation in Debaltseve is untenable because no one can resupply the fighters, said Alla Neschadym, a medic with the ambulance unit whose son Oleg is still fighting in the city. She blamed Kiev for failing to mount a mass military campaign to reinforce them or to negotiate a surrender or corridor for them to withdraw.

Despite posturing from many on the Ukrainian side that they won't give up Debaltseve, Jackson said many troops there want out. "We're all trying to leave," he said. "The only other option is death."

"You should either fight, or you should take them out, but to leave them there as cannon fodder isn't right," Neschadym said.

https://news.vice.com/article/escape-from-debaltseve-how-one-convoy-made-it-out-of-ukraines-besieged-city

Was there already a cauldron during the minsk talks or were the ukrainian leadership not aware of it or did no encirclement exist ?

This is another tragedy and shit will hit the fan in Kiev.......

Edited February 18, 2015 by oxmox

[Dwarden 1125]

Mr. Poroshenko’s order came after the separatists boasted of controlling the town on Tuesday,

and after Mr. Putin suggested at a news conference in Hungary that Ukraine should accept its defeat at Debaltseve by separatist forces he described as “underdogs.â€

“Life is life; it just goes on,†Mr. Putin said. “No need to dwell on it.â€

In Russian sources Putin said "It's always painful to loose, especially to yesterdays miners and tractor drivers, but it's life, one should accept the fact and go on".

Edited February 19, 2015 by Dwarden

[oxmox 73]

The camera also managed to capture dead Ukrainians with their hands tied. Yep, they executed prisoners. That separatist commander is a liying piece of filth as earlier videos have shown.

Look what is said from the journalists who did actually release the footage and were on site:

Bodies, shells and snow in the ruins of Donetsk airport

“Come to the airport this morning,†said the voice from the rebels’ press office, “we have something to show you. You will like it.â€

So it was that a breathless propaganda trip ensued, walking fast and sometimes running along the tank churned frozen mud and snow through the rubble-scape that was once Donetsk airport.

On it went to the bodies. I saw six. Two by a burned out fighting vehicle with several live shells strewn about them and their hands tied with white electric cable.

--> Instantly my photos of the tied hands have been seized upon by online-propagandists as “evidence†of cold-blooded execution.

Let us be clear. Two frozen bodies with hands tied are evidence that two frozen bodies have hands tied. That’s about where the “evidence†ends.

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/bodies-shells-snow-ruins-donetsk-airport/8993

Ukraine Today video report

http://uatoday.tv/politics/video-of-frozen-corpses-with-hands-tied-at-donetsk-airport-provide-evidence-of-possible-war-crimes-409858.html

A really good and interesting video report by Channel 4 / UK TV, about what is going on in the Ukraine in the last days:

Report from both sides at the frontlines around Debaltsevo about the "ceasefire" situation, about mysterious military equipment, civilian casualties and buildings damaged or destroyed targeted by artillery inclusive a childrens hospital and the situation around the Donetsk Airport inclusive the scene about the hand tied dead bodies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po-HuZzM-2Q

(cant embed the video, just click the link)

Latest Channel 4 video report - about Debaltsevo 18th February

http://bcove.me/mzykpndo

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/ukraine-disputed-debaltseve-a-ceasefire-with-a-soundtrack-of-shell-fire/9031

Edited February 19, 2015 by oxmox

[aleksadragutin 9]

VICE NEWS REPORT

Escape from Debaltseve: How One Convoy Made It Out of Ukraine's Besieged City

A mass text message was sent to cell phones in the area urging the Ukrainian forces to surrender: "Parasha (Poroshenko) betrayed us. He's fucking lying there's no encirclement. We're going to the Donetsk guys. Captivity not death."

"There wasn't a word about Debaltseve in the [Minsk] agreement," Zakharchenko argued. "This means that Ukraine has simply betrayed the 5,000 people in this encirclement."

The sad part is he may be right. Poroshenko reportedly refused to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin for a "green corridor" to allow the Ukrainians to leave the city

Of the 16 hours the leaders of France, Germany, Ukraine, and Russia negotiated in Minsk, eight were spent arguing over whether Debaltseve was actually caught in a "kettle," the Russian term for a military encirclement, according to Andrei Kolesnikov, a Kremlin pool journalist who has been allowed extensive access to Putin in the past.

"Vladimir Putin insisted that it was, and that if a ceasefire was agreed, it would be strange if it wouldn't be violated: Those in the kettle will surely try to break out of it, and those who are boiling the kettle will try to gather the steam," Kolesnikov wrote in the newspaper

The situation in Debaltseve is untenable because no one can resupply the fighters, said Alla Neschadym, a medic with the ambulance unit whose son Oleg is still fighting in the city. She blamed Kiev for failing to mount a mass military campaign to reinforce them or to negotiate a surrender or corridor for them to withdraw.

Despite posturing from many on the Ukrainian side that they won't give up Debaltseve, Jackson said many troops there want out. "We're all trying to leave," he said. "The only other option is death."

"You should either fight, or you should take them out, but to leave them there as cannon fodder isn't right," Neschadym said.

https://news.vice.com/article/escape-from-debaltseve-how-one-convoy-made-it-out-of-ukraines-besieged-city

Was there already a cauldron during the minsk talks or were the ukrainian leadership not aware of it or did no encirclement exist ?

This is another tragedy and shit will hit the fan in Kiev.......

This kinda reminds me of Hitlers orders to hold ground against all common sense in the last years of WW2.

[ProfTournesol 956]

This kinda reminds me of Hitlers orders to hold ground against all common sense in the last years of WW2.

That kind of comparison is very popular among Russian nationalists :rolleyes:

[aleksadragutin 9]

That kind of comparison is very popular among Russian nationalists :rolleyes:

I'm not saying that Poroshenko is evil like Hitler, just that he is fixated and stubborn, like him.

[Tonci87 163]

I'm not saying that Poroshenko is evil like Hitler, just that he is fixated and stubborn, like him.

You know, the Germans at least didn´t have an order in effect to kill retreating soldiers...

It´s interesting that you pick Hitler to use in a "no retreat" comparison when there was another , equally evil, guy who was much more famous and notorious for it. Is it because one was fashist and the other one a brave communist?

Well in the end Poroshenko gave the order to retreat. I would like to know if it was his idea or if his advisors urged him to do that.

Another really interesting question is: What will the separatists do now? The have their solid frontline, if they want they could start obeying the ceasefire agreement. Something makes me think they don´t want that though.

[aleksadragutin 9]

You know, the Germans at least didn´t have an order in effect to kill retreating soldiers...

It´s interesting that you pick Hitler to use in a "no retreat" comparison when there was another , equally evil, guy who was much more famous and notorious for it. Is it because one was fashist and the other one a brave communist?

Well in the end Poroshenko gave the order to retreat. I would like to know if it was his idea or if his advisors urged him to do that.

Yes but in the end it worked for him, and not for Hitler. The deserters were shot in Germany as well as every other country.

Edited February 19, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[Tonci87 163]

Yes but in the end it worked for him, and not for Hitler. The deserters were shot in Germany as well as every other country.

Deserters aren´t the same as retreating soldiers. And in the end it only worked for Stalin because Germany was busy on many other fronts.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Deserters aren´t the same as retreating soldiers. And in the end it only worked for Stalin because Germany was busy on many other fronts.

Deserter is a soldier that leaves his post in spite of his orders. That includes retreating without orders. And this is a dumb discussion, I simply made a comparison, so why are you always eager to escalate things?

Edited February 19, 2015 by aleksadragutin