oxmox 73 Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Yeah, I think I haven't been specific enough. Where does Poroshenko say that he will not negotiate with the pro-Russians in Minsk today? What you just said doesn't make any sense. So you are saying that no government has ever negotiate with terrorists? So then why there are negotiations today? If according to you the "Russian-backed separatist republics" have no representatives there... :j: I thought that Putin was their representative as the pro-Russian overlord. But yeah I guess he was just passing by... You ask Where Poroshenko did say it, well its the title of one of the articel, I did not read the article so far. What do you mean what I said does not make sense, I just did post today what was written in the media...thats all. It could be that no direct negotiations by the Government of the Ukraine with the leaders of the seperatists did happen so far. So then why there are negotiations today? If according to you the "Russian-backed separatist republics" have no representatives there. ... maybe read again my previous post with infos from "Die Welt". Edited February 11, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 11, 2015 My point was that today's talks are a Masquerade, as all the others the Kremlin has been getting us used to. Anyone with a little amount of common sense knows that the "Pro-Russians" are basically forces under the Kremlin's rule to keep its control on the territory, not Ukrainians looking for a better future. And that no matter what Putin may sign, because he can simple order his minions to proclaim that "Putin doesn't represent them". Which is what has happened these last months. So the fact that: Lets see the outcome of the negotiations, Russia is involved in these talks.... Means nothing. It's absurd, it doesn't make any sense to look for an outcome in these negotiations. The Kremlin started all this absurd conflict and keeps fueling it, which means that it will only finish when the Kremlin decides it's not longer useful to bully Ukraine; so not now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Yeah, I think I haven't been specific enough.Where does Poroshenko say that he will not negotiate with the pro-Russians in Minsk today? What you just said doesn't make any sense. So you are saying that no government has ever negotiate with terrorists? So then why there are negotiations today? If according to you the "Russian-backed separatist republics" have no representatives there... I thought that Putin was their representative as the pro-Russian overlord. But yeah I guess he was just passing by... Ah, alright it was a misread and I was distracted. You did ask if Poroshenko said that he would not negotiate with seperatist t o d a y. Well, the news did write only about the "leadership in Kiev" like I did post it, nothing about Poroshenko directly. It does not say if it is about today or in general. The seperatists are there to sign agreements if the talks are succesful. Anyway it seems there were problems with direct talks between the leadership in Kiev and the seperatists leaders following the news dating back already months ago. Edited February 11, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) I see the peace talks have a great effect on the fighting http://youtu.be/Cdde6_6sBuk http://youtu.be/wieI-q4AGP0 Ah, so peaceful! Also here is russian TV proposing to "parade" in Berlin. Because you know, Warsaw would be too easy. The Victory parade has to be in the spirit of the last time russia "liberated" europe! http://youtu.be/-KGa9baVh2k What a great peace effort! Parade through Berlin as a sign of friendship! Too bad Washington would take a little while longer. Oh well... Some more peaceful solutions from russia arrived http://youtu.be/8rM_DK2hL7M Edited February 11, 2015 by beastcat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 11, 2015 Also here is russian TV proposing to "parade" in Berlin. Because you know, Warsaw would be too easy. The Victory parade has to be in the spirit of the last time russia "liberated" europe! http://youtu.be/-KGa9baVh2k What a great peace effort! Parade through Berlin as a sign of friendship! Too bad Washington would take a little while longer. Oh well... Oh God...... How can she even keep a straight face.... And then London..... Crazy people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Also here is russian TV proposing to "parade" in Berlin. Because you know, Warsaw would be too easy. The Victory parade has to be in the spirit of the last time russia "liberated" europe! Are you sure this isnt just some kind of SATIRE and shows only a part of it in this short video......I hope some do not really believe this is serious political propaganda to justify conquering Europe, otherwise they would nead a reality check hehe. Pretty sure Belarus is the next target, look at Lukashenko...:p http://i.giphy.com/3rgXBwySAlVxwIyNfG.gif (838 kB) Edited February 12, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nodunit 397 Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Ah, I love monty python! Kind of reminds me of the skits from the Colbert Show, rather funny in its own silly and absurdity. I mean THAT seriously cannot be propaganda, there is just no way, it's practically taking the piss. Edited February 12, 2015 by NodUnit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kireta21 13 Posted February 12, 2015 Pictures sometimes speak louder than words Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rydygier 1317 Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Oh God...... How can she even keep a straight face.... And then London..... Some really not stupid people in Poland observing, how geopolitical situation is shifting last weeks, and what's the current aim of Russian propaganda (like those jokes), are seriously concerned about own country. Thing is, similar, like before WW2, Polish "defense doctrine" is based on assumption "NATO will defend us, so no one will attack us or will fail, if would try". Only then they had no real choice - no time, we have/had now, and they seriously expected a threat. In the same time current Polish ability for self-defence is defective in many ways, highly inappriopriate in strength and far lower and less efficient, than could be with only decent effort (eg true territorial defense), if Poland would be governed wiser, than it is second cadence now. Let's hope, there will be no reason to start "Poland general" thread, but wise one will be prepared on such event. I wonder, how similar people are thinking now about Putin's actions comparing to 1938 situation with Hitler. Aren't we too sure, another big war can't happen just because? Well, in the meantime they finished talks in Minsk, I see. Not, that it matters much in long term, but some agreement was made apparently. Edited February 12, 2015 by Rydygier Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sudayev 27 Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Polish "defense doctrine" is based on assumption "NATO will defend us, so no one will attack us". In the same time Polish ability for self-defence is highly inappriopriate to the situation and far lower, than could be with only decent effort, if Poland would be governed wiser, than it is now You're telling like it is. They don't learn from history, but the change should start from the very botton. From patriotism, more Przysposobienie Obronne (defence training in schools; military, civil defense, survival, scouting etc), self defence cells organization (FIA organizations), better gun education. Of course there should be wider access to personal firearms than it is, because currently Poland is most restrictive country when it comes to gun laws in entire EU (1,3 piece per 100 citizens:/ )! This mostly derives from the previous socialist system and how they demonized the firearms; firearms are evil and only army can have them because the army is guarantee of peace, armed citizen is a danger to the system (yes it is, because armed society is harder to manipulate and can overthrow) etc etc... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRAIIfaJylY This is how students train in Russia. When it will come to the right time, they will have no problems with weapon familiarization when opposed to people who know firearms only from TV or games. . Let's hope, there will be no reason to start "Poland general" thread Why not having a thread for general discussions? I was thinking about it. There are many of us here and because of that we sometimes derail threads ;) Edited February 12, 2015 by Sudayev Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surpher 1 Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) BBCs Newsnight had a report on the Maidan shootings last night. (BBC iPlayer) Newsnight - 11/02/2015 Starts around 10mins into the programme. (BBC News Magazine) The untold story of the Maidan massacre A day of bloodshed on Kiev's main square, nearly a year ago, marked the end of a winter of protest against the government of president Viktor Yanukovych, who soon afterwards fled the country. More than 50 protesters and three policemen died. But how did the shooting begin? Protest organisers have always denied any involvement - but one man told the BBC a different story. (KyivPost) A complex of measures to fulfill the Minsk agreements Editor's note: Below is the unofficial translation of the full text of agreements reached by the leaders of Germany, France, Ukraine and Russia in Minsk on Feb. 12, 2015. Edited February 12, 2015 by surpher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dwarden 1125 Posted February 12, 2015 'youth' organizations not just work for health and education but as reservoir of troops and unfortunately were used easily as militia force ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rydygier 1317 Posted February 12, 2015 Why not having a thread for general discussions? Knowing the manner, Poles used to discuss politics/how deeply divided Polish society is today, I'm afraid, that will be short-living thread. :) But IMO you could try... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) ( Vice ) Ukraine Ceasefire Offers 'Glimmer of Hope,' Though Many Issues Remain Unresolved Edited February 12, 2015 by MistyRonin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted February 12, 2015 Some separatists supposedly tried to return to russia while intoxicated and got shot at by the border guards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) BBCs Newsnight had a report on the Maidan shootings last night.(BBC iPlayer) Newsnight - 11/02/2015 Starts around 10mins into the programme. (BBC News Magazine) The untold story of the Maidan massacre Another interesting short documentary from the german first Channel state TV about Maidan shootings (with english subtitles/April 2014): Who were the Maidan snipers ? Seven weeks after the fatal shooting of Kiev, which led to the downfall of the government of President Viktor Yanukovych, references multiply which would cast serious doubt on the official version of events. According to researchs by the WDR magazine monitor, it is unlikely that the shooting of protesters happened solely on the part of the former Ukrainian leadership Yanukovich. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuJfXX0eYLY The video shows that demonstrators were shot in the back from a Hotel building which was occupied by the opposition and not by government forces. I really wonder why this incident is still not resolved and it seems there is a cover-up. The official story stinks........ Factbox: Minsk agreement on Ukraine (Reuters) - The leaders of Ukraine, Russia, Germany and France agreed a deal to end fighting in eastern Ukraine at talks in Minsk, Belarus, that ran all night into Thursday. Following are details of the agreement from a Russian-language document handed to reporters: All 13 points listed..... http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/12/us-ukraine-crisis-minsk-agreement-factbo-idUSKBN0LG20Y20150212 Edited February 12, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 12, 2015 ( The Guardian ) Ukraine ceasefire: European leaders sceptical peace plan will work European leaders on Thursday praised Germany and France for brokering a ceasefire and peace plan for Ukraine, but privately voiced scepticism that the pact struck after a marathon all-night summit in Belarus would work. They worried that an upsurge in fighting before the truce is supposed to take hold in eastern Ukraine on Sunday could quickly turn into a bloodbath.“The next 48 hours will be crucial,†said one EU diplomat at a summit in Brussels dominated by the Ukraine breakthrough. ( BBC ) Ukraine crisis: US welcomes Minsk peace agreement US Secretary of State John Kerry said sanctions on Russia could be eased but only if its actions matched its words. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 12, 2015 Minsk. Russian reporter Alexander Yunashev from live news barks at Ukrainian journalist Olga Koshelenko. I hope they threw him out of the building after that. Sasha from LifeNews jumped up to us and barked in our faces like a dog. It came quite naturally to him. Thankfully, he didn’t bite, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 12, 2015 Minsk. Russian reporter Alexander Yunashev from live news barks at Ukrainian journalist Olga Koshelenko. Well nothing new, the "journalists" from LifeNews and RT have never been known for their professionalism. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sudayev 27 Posted February 12, 2015 Minsk. Russian reporter Alexander Yunashev from live news barks at Ukrainian journalist Olga Koshelenko. What a monkey, where was the security and their professional "silencing" techniques Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SnR 1 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) The main points of the agreement Ceasefire to begin at 00.00am local time on 15 February Heavy weapons withdrawn in a two week period starting from 17 February Amnesty for prisoners involved in fighting Withdrawal of all foreign militias from Ukrainian territory and the disarmament of all illegal groups Lifting of restrictions in rebel areas of Ukraine Decentralisation for rebel regions by the end of 2015 Ukrainian control of the border with Russia by the end of 2015 The participants also agreed to attend regular meetings ​​to ensure the fulfilment of the ​​agreements, ​a Russian-distributed document said. Edited February 13, 2015 by SnR §12) Do not type in a non-black font Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rydygier 1317 Posted February 13, 2015 :/ No surprises. Of course till then, they continue fight as hell, by the way. Assuming, this will work, next question is, when, where and how Russia will reach for more. BTW: text is white, nearly invisible, with bright forum skin at least. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 13, 2015 Wasn´t there some talk about rebels returning the areas they conquered during the past few weeks? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sudayev 27 Posted February 13, 2015 Different views sparkled a violent fist fight between two Ukrainian parliamentarians belonging to the anti-corruption fraction. One of them was encouraging (Ivchenko from Batkivschyna) to vote on new land bill, while another man (Sobolev from Self-Reliance) was advocating against the vote because it would lead to malpractice. Yellow card for both of them and week of suspension from parliamentary works. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sub-Human 10 Posted February 13, 2015 The main points of the agreement Ceasefire to begin at 00.00am local time on 15 February Heavy weapons withdrawn in a two week period starting from 17 February Amnesty for prisoners involved in fighting Withdrawal of all foreign militias from Ukrainian territory and the disarmament of all illegal groups Lifting of restrictions in rebel areas of Ukraine Decentralisation for rebel regions by the end of 2015 Ukrainian control of the border with Russia by the end of 2015 The participants also agreed to attend regular meetings ​​to ensure the fulfilment of the ​​agreements, ​a Russian-distributed document said. And not a single mention of Russia, Russian Armed Forces, Russian support of terrorists. Pathetic. But at the very least - there will be no more fighting. Hopefully Ukraine rebuilds and the Donbass miners will want to come back to the new Ukraine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
