Ukraine General

[aleksadragutin 9]

It's not me who call it a fake, most of the countries of the World, just check the UN vote on the issue.

Besides that unlike the Kosovo referendum, the Crimean Referendum didn't meet any international law standards. The referendum in Kosovo had all the International guarantees.

How could the US arm IS in Syria. If IS sole birth reason was to fight the US in Iraq ( in 2004-2006 ), and later they extended to Syria.

Why would the US Army & Marines be fighting them in Iraq for years and now bombing them both in Iraq and in Syria... :rolleyes:

In Libya the NATO conducted a legal operation following the UNSC resolution 1973 ( no country voted against it, so yeah Russia allowed that operation ).

That's the difference between legal and illegal.

US was arming those who fought the Syrian army, and later they used those weapons to attack Iraq.

It doesn't really matter to me if Russia allowed it or not, all that matters is that order turned to chaos after NATO helped the rebels (for god knows what reason, maybe oil or some other interests), and I find it a little hard to believe that pore US were naive. The fact that few representatives reached an agreement that it's legal, doesn't make it right, and are breaching the states constitution. What matters is that NATO is deciding to help rebels in one situation, and condemn them in another, very similar one. And people should know by now that it has nothing to do with freedom or human rights, and everything to do with political interests.

[mistyronin 1181]

US was arming those who fought the Syrian army, and later they used those weapons to attack Iraq.

The US and other countries armed the Syrian Free Army who fights both against the IS and against the Al-Assad's Army.

And people should know by now that it has nothing to do with freedom or human rights, and everything to do with political interests.

To add democratic countries where certain resources are located also benefit to all the World's democracies. So yeah freedom & democracy are political interest that have economic consequences.

But hey, all the countries of the world act for interests of different nature. Then there's certain rules of fair play that all the countries of the World have imposed to themselves to determine until where you can reach following that interests.

For example the US and other NATO countries create big coalitions, to benefit an important part of the World.

The think is that Putin's Russia doesn't respect that rules in his past and actual interventions, acts selfishly to only benefit itself. To give you a metaphor that may allow you to see it clearly:

- Russia is like the player that use all kind of cheats and hacks when playing online for it's own interests.

- While the NATO is like a clan of players that help each-other to achieve better results legally.

[Tonci87 163]

[St. Jimmy 272]

- Russia is like the player that use all kind of cheats and hacks when playing online for it's own interests.

- While the NATO is like a clan of players that help each-other to achieve better results legally.

Wow...

[oxmox 73]

Originally Posted by MistyRonin

- Russia is like the player that use all kind of cheats and hacks when playing online for it's own interests.

- While the NATO is like a clan of players that help each-other to achieve better results legally.

Do you really believe this.....:rolleyes:

---------------

Taking your example with games, in general:

I can only suggest to see the world conflicts not only through the eyes of an FPS game, instead look at it like playing an RTS strategy game aswell.

Edited February 4, 2015 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

My god, these people are such cretins! You evacuate them and they bitch that the government doesn't do anything to get them out. You give them water, they bitch that they don't get enough. You try to defend them and they bitch that there is fighting going on. It almost makes you want to leave them and let them rot there. Jesus christ, a week without electricity? It's war! What do you expect? People along the front and in the occupied territories have it much worse. During the times of the soviet union you didn't even need a war to have no electricity for a week, yet they love it so much.

[oxmox 73]

but the "referendums" in other territories such as Kosovo

When it comes to 1999 and the Kosovo War....

--> There was no referendum at all, it did not happen.

[aleksadragutin 9]

To add democratic countries where certain resources are located also benefit to all the World's democracies. So yeah freedom & democracy are political interest that have economic consequences.

But hey, all the countries of the world act for interests of different nature. Then there's certain rules of fair play that all the countries of the World have imposed to themselves to determine until where you can reach following that interests.

For example the US and other NATO countries create big coalitions, to benefit an important part of the World.

The think is that Putin's Russia doesn't respect that rules in his past and actual interventions, acts selfishly to only benefit itself. To give you a metaphor that may allow you to see it clearly:

- Russia is like the player that use all kind of cheats and hacks when playing online for it's own interests.

- While the NATO is like a clan of players that help each-other to achieve better results legally.

Yes, NATO actions benefit the NATO part of the world, same as Russian actions benefit the Russian part of the world. This is what I'm saying, you can't make a clear black and white picture, because the world contains a million shades of gray. And to say that NATO does all of it's affairs legally is simply not true (NATO aggression in 99 without a UN resolution). You can't say that one side is evil and the other one is not. Not to mention that half of the world views NATO as an aggressor, more than half if you count all the Chinese.

---------- Post added at 10:04 ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 ----------

When it comes to 1999 and the Kosovo War....

--> There was no referendum at all, it did not happen.

Nobody said it was held in 1999.

Edited February 4, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[surpher 1]

(HRW) Ukraine: Rising Civilian Death Toll

Separatist rebel forces were probably responsible for two recent unlawful attacks with unguided rockets in eastern Ukraine, which together killed at least 41 civilians, including two children, and wounded more than 100 civilians, Human Rights Watch said today.

During a recent on-the-ground investigation, Human Rights Watch also found that both Ukrainian government forces and the Russia-backed rebel forces have unnecessarily endangered civilians by locating military objectives and using explosive weapons with wide-area effect in populated areas, including near school buildings, in violation of international humanitarian law.

(The Guardian) Welcome to the most corrupt nation in Europe

While the conflict with Russia heats up in the east, life for most Ukrainians is marred by corruption so endemic that even hospitals appear to be infected. Can anyone clean the country up?

[LIFENEWS] [RU] [source] - Militias shot down a missile "Tochka-U" under Lugansk

http://i.imgur.com/VkG15NV.jpg

(IHS Jane's) Analysis: Ukraine rebels claim Tochka ballistic missile shoot-down

Ukrainian rebels claim to have shot down an OTR-21 Tochka (SS-21 'Scarab'/9M79) short-range ballistic missile near Luhansk on the night of 1/2 February.

The claim, if true, would indicate that anti-Kiev forces have an operational missile defence capability. However, analysis by IHS Jane's indicates the rebels are unlikely to have downed the missile.

[St. Jimmy 272]

(HRW) Ukraine: Rising Civilian Death Toll

Key word: probably. There are as many things to counter these things as there are back these up. But right about that article should be that both sides have been bombing civil areas.

(IHS Jane's) Analysis: Ukraine rebels claim Tochka ballistic missile shoot-down

Hmmm here's likely the earliest video about the missile found:

Those guys weren't sure was it downed by other missile from Ukrops or just bad condition of the missile brought it down. If it could be countered with BUK then it could be either one who countered it.

There's at least one or two of those missiles landed on civil areas. It makes a nice crater.

[oxmox 73]

OSCE: Luhansk City shelled with Cluster Ammunition

Spot report by the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine (SMM), 3 February 2015: Civilians killed and wounded in strike with cluster munitions in Izvestkova Street in Luhansk city

e.g. a series of parallel rows of strike marks on a gate and wall, were consistent with damage typically caused by shrapnel elements from cluster munition.

The SMM identified them as parts consistent with 9M55K model “Smerch†rockets (calibre 300mm).

The SMM measured the incoming azimuth for the three cargo remains of the “Smerch†rockets, indicating a general incoming north-north-west direction.

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/138906

Deadly shell hits Donetsk hospital

The BBC's Olga Ivshina says many patients were inside the hospital when it was shelled

Three people were killed and many more wounded when a shell hit a hospital in the rebel-held city of Donetsk in eastern Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31129484

Advancing Ukraine rebels appear to capture frontline town

Pro-Russian rebels appeared to be in full control on Wednesday of one of the towns that has been a principal target of their advance, as they attempt to surround a nearby garrison of Ukrainian forces.

A military spokesman in the capital said Vuhlehirsk was still contested. But Reuters journalists on the ground were freely able to enter about 60 percent of it and saw no sign of areas controlled by Ukrainian troops. Rebels patrolled casually and were in a boisterous mood, using positions in the town to fire artillery on Debaltseve.

Ukraine says its military is outgunned by the heavy weaponry rebels have received from Russia. But the prospect of new arms arriving from the United States raises the risk of escalating the war.

Rebels say they had no choice but to advance, to make the cities they control more secure and push back government artillery which had been killing civilians.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/04/us-ukraine-crisis-hospital-idUSKBN0L80Y320150204

[ProfTournesol 956]

Some questions arise :

- How much well known corruption in Ukraine does weaken the Ukrainian National Army, which seems helpless against DNR troops ?

- How many Ukraine born people are among the DNR troops ?

About the question of escalation if West does supply weapons to Ukraine regular troops, i strongly disagree. That's part of the blackmail Russia is doing, but Putin's Russia does understand one single thing : strength. NATO countries must supply as many modern and heavy weapons as they can to Ukrainian legitimate power, and then we'll see if Russia has the guts the go further, which i highly doubt. WW2 would have stopped if France had the guts to intervene when Germany sent troops in Rheinland in 1936.

[surpher 1]

(The XX Committee) On Arming Ukraine

Specifically, sending Javelin ATGMs to Ukraine, which has been floated by the White House of late, might help a great deal; the Javelin, which has seen little use against tanks in Iraq and Afghanistan, can defeat the ERA on Russian tanks, which older Ukrainian AT systems, mostly of Cold War vintage, are having a tough time getting past. Modern MANPADS, even in small numbers, will drive the Russian Air Force high up, reducing their effectiveness, while OTS ECM systems — again, in modest numbers — can nullify most of Russia’s big SIGINT/EW advantage (i.e. REB) quickly. (If the United States declines to supply Ukraine with such systems, many Western countries make comparably advanced equipment.) Items such as better tactical medical gear, which would drop the death rate among Ukrainian wounded, ought not be controversial to anyone.

[Tonci87 163]

The Separatists seem to have started a great offensive. According to the Ukrainina military 80 towns and villages have been attacked with heavy artillery during the last 24 hours. The main focus seems to be on Debaltsewe. An important railroad town that logistically connects Donetsks and Lugansk. The separatist attack on that town is a direct breech of the Minsk agreement (yeah I know the separatists didn´t give a shit about it from day 1) since it was agreed that Debaltsewe would stay under Ukrainian control.

Is anybody gonna try to deny that the separatists are getting their artillery ammunition from Russia?

[St. Jimmy 272]

Minsk agreement has been broken by both sides so many times that I wonder if it does matter anymore at all.

DPR likely doesn't stop and accept any chease fire soon because they know that enemy gather troops and ammo then.

Interestingly this was announced about Debaltseve by DPR

http://youtu.be/WOFO9ep4mik

[beastcat 14]

FP - Crowdfunding the War in Ukraine — From Manhattan

[Rydygier 1309]

Crowdfunding... In person for now, but let's do online kickstarter. War never changes my... So, perhaps war in XXI become kind of world-wide spread funded tournament, where anyone, nationality or citizenship doesn't matter, can support the cause/side of his choice without leaving his room? Just pity, war itself can't be resolved in the virtual world only.

[Tonci87 163]

Minsk agreement has been broken by both sides so many times that I wonder if it does matter anymore at all.

DPR likely doesn't stop and accept any chease fire soon because they know that enemy gather troops and ammo then.

Interestingly this was announced about Debaltseve by DPR

http://youtu.be/WOFO9ep4mik

This is bullshit. They are shelling that town day and night and they also shell the corridor nonstop, the corridor civilians use to escape the city. They know that they will hit civilians eventually and so they proactivelly blame the Ukrainians.

[oxmox 73]

Kiev claims not confirmed by US NATO Ambassador....

US envoy: Russians present in Ukraine in specialist roles

Douglas Lute's assessment appeared to conflict with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko's assertion last month that Russia had sent 9,000 troops to back separatist rebels in the east of his country.

(Reuters) - The U.S. ambassador to NATO said on Wednesday that Russian soldiers were present in eastern Ukraine in a command role and to operate advanced military equipment, but that another large-scale Russian intervention did not appear imminent.

"Back in August, we saw a spike in direct Russian intervention in the form of Russian military units. We saw Russian battalions as coherent formations deployed into Ukraine," Lute told a news briefing before a NATO defence ministers' meeting on Thursday.

"We don’t see another such direct intervention (by Russian units) as imminent," he said.

"They are only partly successful with this. We don’t think that they have absolute control over the separatist movements, but we think they are trying ...

However, he said that Russian intelligence operatives and soldiers, in and out of uniform, had been serving in southeastern Ukraine since the beginning of the armed rebellion some nine months ago, mainly performing a command and control role.

Lute said it took the United States years to train crews on similar advanced equipment, which included electronic warfare equipment and more sophisticated command and control and air defence systems:

"This is not equipment that is subject to be handed over to a group of separatists with very sketchy military backgrounds and operated effectively."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/04/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-usa-idUSKBN0L81S220150204

That means probably most of the media reports in the last months about russian troops were just wrong informations ?

I thought already why media sources aswell Kiev claims are about such high numbers of Russian troops, but there were never shown any higher numbers of POW´s. At the end of December 2014, a "mass prisoner exchange" was reported, never heard anything about a bigger percentage of russian troops among them. The biggest group of captured russian soldier which I remember were those 10 russian paratroopers last year, besides the mentioned graves in Russia itself.

Edited February 5, 2015 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

[Tonci87 163]

[beastcat 14]

Somewhere close to Debaltseve

"It's simply that defending the terminal was a pointless endeavor"

That's the reason for the failed counter attack that wasted lifes for nothing? Edited February 5, 2015 by beastcat

[astral4eg 10]

04.02.2015 23:40 Donetsk, Magistralny district, supposedly firing phosphorus

The militiamen help Uglegorsk residents to escape from town under AFU fire

Edited February 6, 2015 by astral4eg

[surpher 1]

The militiamen help Uglegorsk residents to escape from town under AFU fire

The very same Uglegorsk residents they have been firing on for months:rolleyes:

[oxmox 73]

McCain to Sputnik: Ukraine's Use of Cluster Bombs Is US' Fault

Chairman of the Senate Committee on Armed Services John McCain stated Thursday that the Ukraine’s use of cluster bombs was partially the US' fault.

“I think that if we had provided them with the weapons they need, they wouldn’t have felt they had to use cluster bombs. So, it’s partially our fault,†McCain said.

http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150205/1017844947.html

John McCain accuses Merkel of appeasement-policy(google translated)

The US Republicans criticized the Chancellor sharp. Their behavior reminded him of appeasement in the 1930s. The SPD demanded an apology from McCain.

In the US, is discussed on arms deliveries to the Ukrainian army again because of the fighting in eastern Ukraine. McCain is one of the most prominent advocates.

The chairman of the Armed Services Committee in the Senate compared their rejection of arms supplies to the Ukraine with the appeasement policy toward Nazi Germany before the Second World War. The ZDF broadcast Berlin he said directly, according to a preliminary report of the sender: "Your behavior reminds me of the politics of the 30s."

"I would ask the Chancellor, how many people have to die in Ukraine before we help them to defend themselves?" Said Republican Senator. "They do not know because where the weapons for the separatists and the troops come from?" McCain accused Merkel inactivity before: "Will they just watch as a country in Europe is fragmented for the first time since the Second World War?"

"If the attitude of the German government to look at, one might think that she does not know or does not care that people are being slaughtered in Ukraine."

The federal government has clearly spoken out against arms sales to the Ukrainian government. Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President François Hollande instead started on Thursday a new peace initiative.

US Secretary of State John Kerry said Thursday during a visit to Kiev, President Barack Obama will "soon" to decide.

Zeit Online

McCain calls for bill requiring U.S. arms to Ukraine if Obama does not act

(Reuters) - U.S. lawmakers will write legislation requiring the United States to send arms to Ukraine if President Barack Obama does not move to send weapons, Republican Senator John McCain said on Thursday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/05/us-usa-congress-ukraine-idUSKBN0L92CG20150205

Several European defence ministers attending a NATO meeting in Brussels voiced opposition to sending weapons to Ukraine

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - European defence ministers spoke out on Thursday against sending weapons to the Ukrainian army, pointing to a potential transatlantic split if Washington decides to supply arms.

The United States is considering whether to provide weapons to Ukraine in its fight against Russian-backed separatists, although no decision has been made, senior administration officials said on Monday.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has also called on NATO states to send weapons to his country.

Several European defence ministers attending a NATO meeting in Brussels voiced opposition to sending weapons to Ukraine, fearing it could fuel the conflict.

"More weapons in this area will not bring us closer to a solution, and will not end the suffering of the population," German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen told reporters.

"We need to put a lot of pressure on the separatists and Russia in an economic and political way to find a solution at the table and not on the (battle)field because to give input to a potential escalation is not a good solution," she said.

Dutch Defence Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert said she believed most allies, "but in particular the Netherlands, will insist on non-lethal support to Ukraine. Political dialogue is the only way out of the crisis."

Italian Defence Minister Roberta Pinotti said Rome opposed the supply of lethal weapons to Ukraine.

"We need to lower the temperature of the crisis, not to raise it," she told a news conference.

British Defence Secretary Michael Fallon said London would "see what more we can do in the way of training and equipment that is non-lethal."

Lithuanian Defence Minister Juozas Olekas said his country supported Ukraine with "some elements" for the military requested by Poroshenko but declined to give details.

U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel refused to be drawn on whether he backed sending defensive weapons to Ukraine during a press conference in Brussels, but said: "We shouldn't forget ... what President Obama has said, what leaders of European nations have said ... This issue is not going to be resolved militarily."

U.S. Air Force General Philip Breedlove, NATO's top military commander, said Russian supply of heavy weaponry and assistance to rebels in eastern Ukraine caused "much concern" and the Ukrainian people had a right to defend themselves.

http://news.yahoo.com/european-defense-ministers-oppose-sending-weapons-ukraine-140124820.html

Edited February 6, 2015 by oxmox