Ukraine General

[aleksadragutin 9]

What I do know is that the Russian propaganda was spreading infinitely much more bullshit during this crysis than the western one. And nothing you say will change simple facts.

Unless it's not true. Like I said, we don't know.

[oxmox 73]

Of course the western media can be biased etc, but at least in the western media you couldn´t hear someone saying that the rebels crucified children. So yes the western Media is THAT MUCH better.

Iam not going to defend the russian media here and Iam not talking solely to Tonci87 but to everyone of you.

Dont even think that in the western media such similar happenings are not getting reported.

Of course this video is highly possible just propaganda, in addition it is a message from an unknown woman. And in this case you dont know if the propaganda was made by the media, appreciated by the media to spread such biased informations or the media did fall for a hoax, beeing too uncritical and so on.

A good example and in the meanwhile a classic of propaganda in the western media which is similar to this case is the so called "Nayirah" case. At the end the infos did come from someone involved with people in authority.

The "Nayirah" fake testimony which was all over the media did happen in the Gulf War 1991.

In 1992, it was revealed that Nayirah's last name was al-Ṣabaḥ and that she was the daughter of Saud Al-Sabah, the Kuwaiti ambassador to the United States. Furthermore, it was revealed that her testimony was organized as part of the Citizens for a Free Kuwait public relations campaign which was run by Hill & Knowlton for the Kuwaiti government. Following this, al-Sabah's testimony has come to be regarded as a classic example of modern atrocity propaganda.

In her emotional testimony, Nayirah stated that after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait she had witnessed Iraqi soldiers take babies out of incubators in a Kuwaiti hospital, take the incubators, and leave the babies to die.

--> Her story was initially corroborated by Amnesty International and testimony from evacuees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_%28testimony%29

There are more examples of course....another one.

In the 90ies during the "Yugoslavia conflict" the german minister of defence Rudolph Scharping did claim a concentration camp exists in the stadium of Pristina and suddenly the word "Auschwitz" was used in combination with this propaganda to justify their interests and support for the war.

This was a downright lie.

On youtube you can watch a documentary about it which was also shown on the german main TV channel several years ago, the documentary is called "Es begann mit einer Lüge" ( "It did start with a lie"). The documentary shows how Germany got into the Kosovo War and reports about the lies/propaganda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqPnn-GD4-k

Edited September 14, 2014 by oxmox

[Rydygier 1309]

Unless it's not true. Like I said, we don't know.

Unless, but it's highly unlikely, if we hear homonymous reports from few independent sources. With approach, you propose, we "don't know" anything, so makes no sense to talk at all, and we should close BI Forums and go home in silence isn't? But that's not true - if risk of mistake is low enough to take it and assume something as true. Yes, we know. Just we don't know for sure. But we know well enough to talk about without real concern.

These matters are so obvious, so usually left unsaid, but apparently sometimes we need to remind to ourselves some basic things, I see, if unsaid too long...

Edited September 14, 2014 by Rydygier

[ProfTournesol 956]

Iam not going to defend the russian media here and Iam not talking solely to Tonci87 but to everyone of you.

Nobody says Western medias never lie. That's not even the subject. But most of Russian medias are propaganda vehicles, that's very obvious to everyone able to think on its own.

[beastcat 14]

Russian news said that there are at least 34 Leopard II tanks in Ukraine now. Their proof? Well... Yeah.. "bloggers"... Uhm... Yeah...

Oh yeah and some other thing for the russian media discussion:

Russian media has said multiple times that Ukraine is using phosphorus bombs and cluster bombs while showing videos from Iraq and Gaza (Might be some other conflicts, but you get the idea)

Edited September 14, 2014 by beastcat

[oxmox 73]

Nobody says Western medias never lie. That's not even the subject. But most of Russian medias are propaganda vehicles, that's very obvious to everyone able to think on its own.

Everyone is doing propaganda and is lying thats the important point. But our media is a lot more free with critical journalism.

It just did sound that some people here think, such kind of propaganda type like crucifying children does not happen in the western media and this is wrong.

Edited September 14, 2014 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

It just did sound that some people here think, such kind of propaganda type like crucifying children does not happen in the western media and this is wrong.

Well, it certainly doesn't on a regular basis.

[oxmox 73]

Well, it certainly doesn't on a regular basis.

In general not that massive but when it comes about conflicts/war you can be almost sure. Because international conflicts are not purely humanitarian problems, they are in most cases about economical and geopolitical interests, they are about shifts of power.

[aleksadragutin 9]

In general not that massive but when it comes about conflicts you can be almost sure. Because international conflicts are not purely humanitarian problems, they are in most cases about economical and geopolitical interests.

Case and point, exactly.

[Tonci87 163]

Case and point of what? You completely switched the Topic. You were claiming hat it is OK for the Russians to lie on TV and spread hatefull propaganda because the west is doing the same.

A. No it isn´t

B. This can happen in the west like history has shown, however even then you have critical voices and you can inform yourselves on other points of view. Russia is nothing like that.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Case and point of what? You completely switched the Topic. You were claiming hat it is OK for the Russians to lie on TV and spread hatefull propaganda because the west is doing the same.

A. No it isn´t

B. This can happen in the west like history has shown, however even then you have critical voices and you can inform yourselves on other points of view. Russia is nothing like that.

Ð: You can inform your self in Russia too.

B: I never said it was OK to lie, just said that it has apparently become sociably acceptable. Some here were mentioning the specific wickedness of Russia, which is actually common to everyone (so it's not fair to bash one side).

The Case and Point is that Russia is no different from anyone else regarding war-time propaganda.

[oxmox 73]

The Case and Point is that Russia is no different from anyone else regarding war-time propaganda.

The big difference is that the western world has freedom of journalism, you can report critical about something. Also during conflicts you still find articles which are critical about it, of course there is still a huge amount of media releases who follow certain interests. But critical journalism is possible.

Edited September 14, 2014 by oxmox

[aleksadragutin 9]

The big difference is that the western world has freedom of journalism, you can report critical about something. Also during conflicts you still find articles which are critical about it, of course there is still a huge amount of media releases who follow certain interests. But critical journalism is possible.

To bad people everywhere mostly rely on mainstream media.

[oxmox 73]

To bad people everywhere mostly rely on mainstream media.

Iam talking about the mainstream media.

For example the most famous and a very reputeable newspaper in germany called "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung - FAZ" did release an article with several pages about the Crimea conflict and the Law of Nation, about the definition of an annexion.

The writer, a prestigious University Professor about law and law philosophy, did report about the Crimea and explains in several pages that the happenings about the Crimea is not a true annexion.

This was quiete a surprise since in many other media reports you did hear different informations. And in general it was seen as an unjustice and an infringement of the Law of Nation due to media reports. Sometimes experts seems to be not in consensus with the media, Prof. Schachtschneider expert for State Law is another one. This is the freedom of journalism and opinion, to be able to be critical.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/debatten/die-krim-und-das-voelkerrecht-kuehle-ironie-der-geschichte-12884464.html

Edited September 14, 2014 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

In Russia all the Mainstream media, and most of the rest too, are directly controled by the Kremlin and they are not free to report what they want. That is why we see such absurd propaganda from Russia. But since all major media report it Russians must think it is true. Many Russians can´t speak English, and even the English speaking Russians must search for different informations outside of the Russian internet. Their ability to find critical news with other viewpoints is severely disturbed.

[USSRsniper 0]

Not to mention very tight control on bloggers, and their recent bloggers law tat was passed. Russian government worrying about bloggers spreading false information. In my eyes it basically means, you either talk good about Putin and Russian government or just shut up and get lost. When government starts selecting what can been show and what must be blocked this is bad.

[mistyronin 1181]

Not to mention very tight control on bloggers, and their recent bloggers law tat was passed. Russian government worrying about bloggers spreading false information. In my eyes it basically means, you either talk good about Putin and Russian government or just shut up and get lost. When government starts selecting what can been show and what must be blocked this is bad.

It's worst than that, people not only can get censured, but punished for that.

Besides Putin also promoted a law against those who support separatism. I guess all Kremlin's funded media will be punished, as they are all the time promoting the pro-Russian "separatists" in Ukraine, also commenting almost every day the situation in Catalonia or Scotland.

( RIA Novosti ) Putin Signs Law Punishing Separatism with Jail

Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a law would make spreading separatist views a criminal offence punishable by up to five years in jail.

Under the law submitted to the Russian State Duma by the Communist Party, people will face a fine of up to 300,000 rubles ($9,200) for calling for action aimed against Russia’s territorial integrity.

[alarm9k 14]

Unless it's not true. Like I said, we don't know.

That's a demagogy. "We don't know for sure" can be said about anything. I don't need to be 100% sure to make decisions, I am okay with far less in most cases.

---------- Post added at 05:15 ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 ----------

Okay. I have to say this. Speaking about who knows what. I believe I am pretty well informed about the amounts of bullshit coming from all sides, because:

I was born in Crimea and lived there for a long time

I have former classmates and friends in Ukraine

I live in Russia and speak Russian (can read news, watch TV)

I can read/watch news in English

If taking in account all of the above I could be considered some kind of an 'expert' or a person having first-hand information, I can assure you that the amount of bullshit on Russian media can only be compared to the amount of bullshit on Ukrainian media (yes, they suffer from the same desease but for different reasons). Western news sources are far more reliable (I personally prefer BBC). On a scale from 1 (low BS) to 10 (most BS):

Russia: 10

Ukraine: 8

EU and US: 1

[beastcat 14]

That's a demagogy. "We don't know for sure" can be said about anything. I don't need to be 100% sure to make decisions, I am okay with far less in most cases.

---------- Post added at 05:15 ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 ----------

Okay. I have to say this. Speaking about who knows what. I believe I am pretty well informed about the amounts of bullshit coming from all sides, because:

I was born in Crimea and lived there for a long time

I have former classmates and friends in Ukraine

I live in Russia and speak Russian (can read news, watch TV)

I can read/watch news in English

If taking in account all of the above I could be considered some kind of an 'expert' or a person having first-hand information, I can assure you that the amount of bullshit on Russian media can only be compared to the amount of bullshit on Ukrainian media (yes, they suffer from the same desease but for different reasons). Western news sources are far more reliable (I personally prefer BBC). On a scale from 1 (low BS) to 10 (most BS):

Russia: 10

Ukraine: 8

EU and US: 1

As someone from eastern Ukraine who lives in Europe and has access to russian and ukrainian media I can support this.

[Rydygier 1309]

OBWE monitoring the truce was shelled. Quite Monty Python-ish to me...

Group of observers of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe was shelled in Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, where monitored compliance truce between pro-Russian separatists and the Ukrainian government forces. The incident took place on Sunday afternoon. None of the members of the group did not suffer.

Over the weekend separatists fired 40 times at positions of the Ukrainian army - Ukrainian media reported. The most fierce battles are fought on the airport in Donetsk, which is the only place in the city still controlled by the Ukrainians.

During the fighting of the airport killed was at least three Ukrainian soldiers, several were wounded. Terrorists storm a village Karlivka and Pieski. If the latter would fall, will collapse the entire line of the Ukrainian defense.

Shots can be heard also in the vicinity of Lugansk, Debalcev and Popasna. Shelled are not only the Ukrainian army positions, but also residential buildings. According to the military expert Dmytro Tymczuk, the tense situation is also in the region of Mariupol.

According to him, around the Donetsk Basin, there are cases of skirmishes, including the use of artillery, between groups of separatist, militants themselves and the Russian military. Probably the main reason is the low level of self-organization of units and difficulties with communication between them.

Poland does not sell weapons to Ukraine - said Monday the defense minister Tomasz Siemoniak. At the same time did not exclude that the supply of arms talks will be conducted during already planned a visit to Poland, the Minister of Defense of Ukraine.

Siemoniak in radio Jedynka reported that the visit to our country, the head of the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence Valeriy Hełeteja expects "in the next few days." "We will talk about cooperation, including military" - said Siemoniak.

http://www.polskieradio.pl/7/129/Artykul/1233359,Tomasz-Siemoniak-Polska-jest-otwarta-na-sprzedaz-broni-Ukrainie

- We must first determine whether the needs of Ukraine coincide with our abilities - he adds. - Poland is open to arms sales to Ukraine and expect talks on the issue. There is nothing shameful or anything that should be concealed - emphasized the head of Defence. (Tomasz Siemoniak)

---------- Post added at 09:19 ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 ----------

Rapid Trident 2014

This is the first such venture since the outbreak of the war in Ukraine. - It shows the support provided by NATO countries that are not members of the Alliance - says a spokesman for American forces in Europe, General Gregory Hicks.

The exercise Rapid Trident 2014 will bring together approximately 200 soldiers of the United States and 1,100 soldiers Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Britain, Canada, Georgia, Germany, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Norway, Poland, Romania and Spain.

The military will practice in the Lviv region. The exercise will end on September 26. Although participation in the Rapid Trident 2014 NATO member countries are not formally a NATO exercise.

In turn, in the last week - with the participation of naval forces, among others, Ukraine and the United States - held International Sea Breeze 2014 maneuvers in the north-western part of the Black Sea. The exercises involved 12 ships and support units from different countries, as well as airplanes and helicopters of the armed forces of Ukraine.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Rydygier

[surpher 1]

(BuzzFeed) Russian Journalist Hospitalized After Violent Street Attack

A journalist for Russia’s only surviving independent news channel is recovering in the hospital after two men brutally beat her on Friday evening.

Though the reason for the attack was not immediately clear, its circumstances and seemingly targeted nature raise chilling parallels with numerous past assaults on journalists in Russia.

(BBC) Traitors in Vladimir Putin's Russia

"This programme isn't about politics or propaganda," Mr Lugovoi says.

"It's about the essence of treachery. It's about why eight Soviet citizens with a good upbringing, brilliant education and wonderful careers decided to work for a foreign state and do enormous damage to our country."

With Russia under increasing pressure from sanctions and increasingly isolated from the West, the authorities are raising the spectre of traitors, turncoats and internal enemies to ensure that it's not the Kremlin that Russians blame for their country's problems.

Edited September 15, 2014 by surpher

[Rydygier 1309]

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/10,1141165-Pomysl-PiS-na-obrone--100-mld-euro-z-Unii-i-dwa-razy-wieksza-armia.html

Jaroslaw Kaczynski proposes the creation of a European fund for countries threatened by aggression of Russia and calls for doubling the number of troops

According to the President of PiS, who gave an interview to the weekly "Do Rzeczy", the current government's actions in s. Strengthen the Polish defense are inadequate and only decisive action can ensure the security of Poland.

- 130 billion PLN and this in perspective of 2020 is definitely not enough. We need a lot more and a lot faster to get a good rearm and train - Kaczynski said.

He stressed that the Polish army should only be two times higher than today. Measures to increase the numbers would come from proposed by the PiS the European Security Fund, which is an EU fund that would offer low-interest loans for armaments to countries at risk of Russian aggression. He assured, Poland could then obtain for this purpose as much as 100 billion euros, which would be the sum "for which any army could be decently rearmed".

- We need a line of credit that will allow us to quickly spend big money and spread the repayment of the far future - says the chairman of PiS. And he adds: - If in the same time Union would suspend for us membership fees payment, it would be for us version optimum.

According to the former prime minister, Poland should not invest in "extra-expensive" and the most modern equipment, because it is "easy to destroy, terribly expensive, and its effectiveness is not at all higher than the cheaper".

Another way to "quick and ad hoc," and at the same time "not impossible" to achieve security, in Kaczynski's opinion, would be introduction of the "two heavy American brigades" or "seven-eight mixed brigades".

- Russia needs to see that is standing in front of the wall, that imperial option is closed. History shows that Russia withdraws when he sees that it is hard. If now it will not see such wall, we will have great trouble - said the head of PiS.

(PiS is currently an opposition largest party, that has decent chance to retake the rule in Poland in 2015 elections)

Edited September 15, 2014 by Rydygier

[aleksadragutin 9]

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/10,1141165-Pomysl-PiS-na-obrone--100-mld-euro-z-Unii-i-dwa-razy-wieksza-armia.html

If we had that much money by 2020, we would be a superpower.

[Rydygier 1309]

Some basic data about Polish Army today, not sure, how reliable.

and Russian to compare.

Of course, it is also matter of territory to handle and many other factors.

[beastcat 14]

This is a thing that happened in Lugansk.