Ukraine General

[beastcat 14]

So basically a ditch?

A 2.5m deep and 4m wide enforced ditch without water, yes. But its enough for tanks not to be able to drive over and tech to be spotted.

[aleksadragutin 9]

A 2.5m deep and 4m wide enforced ditch without water, yes. But its enough for tanks not to be able to drive over and tech to be spotted.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQzMpVPXAvBV67l2ga_kKvqMt_yh8Ec5qddeNjgE8nXfBKWJddDLw

So it is truly pointless, building a defense that could be crossed with couple of logs and some dirt.

[beastcat 14]

So it is truly pointless, building a defense that could bi crossed with couple of logs and some dirt.

lol Are you intentionally ignoring everything I wrote?

[aleksadragutin 9]

lol Are you intentionally ignoring everything I wrote?

Nope, are you?

[beastcat 14]

Nope, are you?

Don't worry about me. :) Anyway, do you want me to repeat myself? Here we go:

It is not there to stop a possible invasion.

It is there to slow down a possible invasion.

It is there to spot a possible invasion.

It is there to keep soldiers and tanks from crossing.

It is there to generally prevent illegal border crossings.

It is there to finally build up a defined border.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Don't worry about me. :) Anyway, do you want me to repeat myself? Here we go:

It is not there to stop a possible invasion.

It is there to slow down a possible invasion.

It is there to spot a possible invasion.

It is there to keep soldiers and tanks from crossing.

It is there to generally prevent illegal border crossings.

It is there to finally build up a defined border.

And it fails on all of that except last one.

The towers are 20km a part as you said, so ineffective at spotting, the crossing equipment can easily be prepared outside the border, so not slowing down anything.

[Tonci87 163]

Don't worry about me. :) Anyway, do you want me to repeat myself? Here we go:

It is not there to stop a possible invasion.

It is there to slow down a possible invasion.

It is there to spot a possible invasion.

It is there to keep soldiers and tanks from crossing.

It is there to generally prevent illegal border crossings.

It is there to finally build up a defined border.

All that can be achieved with much more cost effective ways....

I fear Spooky is right on this one, the guys who had the idea surely bought a lot of shares in cement factories by now...

[spooky lynx 73]

Don't worry about me. :) Anyway, do you want me to repeat myself? Here we go:

It is not there to stop a possible invasion.

It is there to slow down a possible invasion.

It is there to spot a possible invasion.

It is there to keep soldiers and tanks from crossing.

It is there to generally prevent illegal border crossings.

It is there to finally build up a defined border.

With modern engineer stuff army has 'stopping' is too loud word. Especially if the construction is so well PRed. Advancing troops will be simply ready for crossing it and bring some bridges or fascines. Slowing down for some minutes isn't worth of that huge amount of money that may be spent.

Moreover such simple ditch enforced with concrete, unequipped with modern CCTV, sensors and fast-reacting patrol groups is nothing but waste of efforts. It never will stop any illegal crossings as bridge can be made very fast. And no simple ditch itself ever helped to spot any planned invasion.

Much better way to improve the situation is paying those 1000 grivnas daily to soldiers, as Poroshenko promised. While those who took part in the ATO cannot even receive proper medical treatment because they formally never been in the battle (according to their official documents) and relatives of fallen have to pay for burial themselves no ditch or even complete fence will help.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Since the Maginot line i'm not convinced of the efficiency of that defense against any modern army. Poor Ukrainian generals, i hope they are slightly better than the French ones in 1940 ;)

[beastcat 14]

I don't know if I'm just really horrible at explaining, but its not supposed to be a line of defense. There won't be anyone sitting inside, its is there to slow down and spot. To cross it you need equipment. That equipment can be spotted. People crossing it can be spotted. There is a difference between getting a tank shell flying in your face and killing you and someone going "There are soldiers building a bridge, they will be here in 10 minutes" or something like that.

And about a price, I gave you how much it would cost in Germany without any volunteers, support by the region administration, bulk pricing and free stuff.

It would cost 2 and a half ukrainian tanks to do in Germany, now image it with Ukrainian prices and all of the above.

Edited September 12, 2014 by beastcat

[Dwarden 1124]

well, it would be also logical if the area behind the 'trenches' are heavily mined ... but ofcourse there are no mines officially ;)

[spooky lynx 73]

I don't know if I'm just really horrible at explaining, but its not supposed to be a line of defense. There won't be anyone sitting inside, its is there to slow down and spot. To cross it you need equipment. That equipment can be spotted. People crossing it can be spotted. There is a difference between getting a tank shell flying in your face and killing you and someone going "There are soldiers building a bridge, they will be here in 10 minutes" or something like that.

All engineering equipment is included organically into any motorised infantry detachment and easily deployed if needed. You don't have to combine ARVs or similar stuff from one brigade and attach it to another. Everything is already put together. As for the spotting - by what it will be done? CCTV? Recon patrols? Satellites? Aerial recon?

And about a price, I gave you how much it would cost in Germany without any volunteers, support by the region administration, bulk pricing and free stuff.

It would cost 2 and a half ukrainian tanks to do in Germany, now image it with Ukrainian prices and all of the above.

Combine it with usual bribes, otkat, constant price raising etc. and you'll get the price 10x bigger than in Germany. Just as it goes with any road construction there. What this "Great Ukrainian wall" really can is only prevent starving and freezing Ukrainians from fleeing to Russia.

[surpher 1]

(Reuters) U.S. steps up sanctions on Russia over Ukraine

"These steps underscore the continued resolve of the international community against Russia’s aggression," U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew said in a statement. "Russia’s economic and diplomatic isolation will continue to grow as long as its actions do not live up to its words."

(The Wall street Journal) Ruble Hits All-Time Low After Bank of Russia Keeps Key Rate at 8% Google the headline to get past the paywall.

The ruble tumbled to a fresh all-time low Friday after the Bank of Russia decided to keep interest rates unchanged, blaming accelerating inflation on Western sanctions.

(Reuters) Dutch hope metal shards will lead them to missile that hit MH17

"If we can establish this iron comes from such a missile, that is important of course," Westerbeke said in an interview. "At this moment, we don't know that, but that's what we are investigating."

(Human Rights in Ukraine) Anti-Ukraine protests for the Russian media

Many of the protests in different European countries with banners claiming that Ukraine is carrying out ‘genocide’ in Donbas, etc., are specially orchestrated, for, if not by, the Russian media.

[spooky lynx 73]

Since the Maginot line i'm not convinced of the efficiency of that defense against any modern army. Poor Ukrainian generals, i hope they are slightly better than the French ones in 1940 ;)

French ones were geniuses comparing with current Ukrainian ones. Where can you get a good military commander if all they did since 1991 is selling former Soviet stuff abroad?

[surpher 1]

(Reuters) Moscow stifles dissent as soldiers return in coffins

Russian authorities have worked to systematically silence rights workers' complaints over soldiers’ deaths, intimidating those who question the Kremlin's denials that its soldiers are in Ukraine.

(Press office of President) Provision of special status for districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions does not threaten sovereignty of Ukraine

According to him, local communities will receive the authority in the issues of their own regions. They will decide what language to use, what cultural holidays to celebrate, how to spend money from the local budget for the bigger share of funds will remain in it. "To create a reasonable model of decentralization of power, Ukrainian experts studied the experience of other countries, particularly Poland," Petro Poroshenko noted.

(UK FCO) FCO Minister discusses necessary, effective and timely EU sanctions

“Second, sanctions are effective. They are clearly having an impact on Russia’s economy, which shrank in the first quarter of this year. Growth is hovering around 0%, and inflation is predicted to approach double-digits. Not a single dollar, Euro or Swiss Franc was lent to a Russian company in July. Eurobonds issued to Russian companies since the start of 2014 have dropped by an incredible 93%. The rouble has hit an historic low against the dollar. Capital flight will be around $80bn this year.

“Not only are sanctions biting; but Russia’s own decision to limit food imports has pushed up prices of certain goods by over 30%, and up to 60% in some extreme cases, creating a new black market in imports from Belarus. The economic impact of this conflict can be felt by every ordinary family in Russia.

(The Guardian) Armoured Russian vehicle seen inside Ukraine

The Guardian has found more evidence of Russian military hardware operating inside Ukraine, spotting an armoured vehicle marked with the symbol of the Russian army's "peacekeeping forces".

The armoured personnel carrier was well inside Ukraine, in Lutuhyne, a town near Luhansk, where a Ukrainian military convoy was destroyed by artillery and Grad missiles last week.

Edited September 12, 2014 by surpher

[beastcat 14]

HD Version

And here is a small reminder on what the situation looked like before the increased russian "incursions".

(The thumbnail seems to be wrong, but I'm too lazy to look for or make the proper one)

HD Version

Edited September 12, 2014 by beastcat

[spooky lynx 73]

EU delays entry into force of free trade pact with Ukraine

New maidan with shootings and molotovs starts in 3... 2... 1... or doesn't start?

[blu3sman 11]

EU delays entry into force of free trade pact with Ukraine

New maidan with shootings and molotovs starts in 3... 2... 1... or doesn't start?

Ukraine will continue to enjoy privileged access to the EU market until that date, he said, but it will not have to cut duties on imports from the EU in return.

Oh my goat! What a betrayal! *went to crucify and burn alive helpless unarmed pregnant policemen*

[Rydygier 1302]

http://www.polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artykul/1232308,Odlozenie-wdrazania-umowy-z-UE-to-zly-sygnal-Ostry-protest-i-dymisja-dyplomaty

Deputy Foreign Minister of Ukraine Danylo Kolesnikov resigns. This is a response to the postponement of the Kiev and Brussels under pressure from Moscow entry into effect parts of the economic association agreement with the European Union.

The diplomat stressed that surely all parties will present rational arguments, as once there were reasonable arguments against the independence of Ukraine. - The adopted solution sends a bad signal to all: the aggressor, allies, and most importantly, to the Ukrainian citizens. Choice can not put off, because then it's not a choice - said the deputy head of the Foreign Ministry asking the government and the parliament to adopt its decision.

Meanwhile, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs notes that the European Union decided to extend for one year trade preferences for Ukrainian goods while putting unlimited admission to Ukraine EU production. This will allow Ukrainian producers to adapt to any competition. Thanks to this Kiev will not have to break a free trade agreement with Russia. - Achieved in Brussels agreement removes even the hypothetical concern of the Russian side related to the entry into force of the Association Agreement - the ministry said in a statement.

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/40,1140808-Na-Ukraine-wjechala-czesc-drugiego-rosyjskiego-konwoju-humanitarnego.html

The first 35 vehicles next Russian humanitarian convoy crossed the border with Ukraine - Russian Customs Service reported on Friday evening.

http://www.tvp.info/16822802/atak-na-lotnisko-w-doniecku-rosyjski-konwoj-wjechal-na-ukraine-rozejm-wisi-na-wlosku

To Lugansk arrived the second part of the Russian humanitarian convoy that crossed the border illegally in the evening.

Agency ITAR-TASS reported that trucks belonging to the Russian second convoy with humanitarian aid have already reached Lugansk in Ukraine. Transported goods were not inspected by the representatives of the OSCE, nor Ukrainian customs officers. The convoy consists of 200 trucks.

The same was true with the first convoy, which entered the Ukraine at the end of August. Kiev accused Moscow later on that truck that left humanitarian aid to Russia carried away machinery from the local industrial plants and dead bodies of Russian soldiers.

"Cease fire" rages on again - Donetsk

In the evening, the Ukrainian media reported that pro-Russian separatists began the assault on the airport in the million city in the east of the country. Also, the Russian agency Ria Novosti reported that in the western part of Donetsk, where the airport controlled by the Ukrainian army, you could hear the heavy artillery.

The local portal "Novosti Donbasa" wrote that the fighters of the Donetsk People's Republic conducted shelling of Donetsk Airport from two sides, using Grad rocket systems.

Kiev said, there was about 40 shellings of Ukrainian positions. Glow of the great fire was observed over the city.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Rydygier

[vilas 473]

Lavrov - when asked about Russians crossing border illegaly - said that Poles, Lithuanians and Sweden Black with "Afroamerican accent" fight in Ukraine

[spooky lynx 73]

[aleksadragutin 9]

The "Russian" in eastern Ukraine were needed to give an impression to soldiers that they are not killing their former neighbours and friends, but foreign aggressors.

[beastcat 14]

So the new convoy apparently has these inside

[aleksadragutin 9]

So the new convoy apparently has these inside

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxZ2TXqIMAAXr7U.jpg

Those are generators.

[spooky lynx 73]

So the new convoy apparently has these inside

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxZ2TXqIMAAXr7U.jpg

Some boxes on a trailer? Oh that truly horrible!