Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Could we finally stick to Ukraine, pls ?

[astral4eg 10]

Terror, violence, robbery, rape, murder, humiliation, lies, poverty...

forgot add that they eat people. Yes, Poles #1 in ranking hater of Russia, i know.

But what is there to be surprised, in new Ukrainian shoolbooks write that they were at war with the ancient Rome ...

@Krycek,I'm getting fed up with your trolling.I'm living in one of those Eastern Europe countries and actually having relatives telling me how "great" the soviet liberation was and especially what followed you should take this because it's obvious you live in alternative history.Not to mention how screwed up our society is even today because of decades of communism.

That's why these small countries in Eastern Europe are running to NATO lately,because they don't want the Motherland love.

Yes, in Soviet history there were many bloody spots, but the problem is that to deny this history prevents the great Patriotic war (Victory Day), and especially compounds the situation is that the Western media over the past ~30 years especially hard shitting on Soviet history.

but return to Ukraine

Trolling today: Ukrainian media exec takes infamous internet tactic to TV, dodges conversation with RT

Obama calls for NATO solidarity in Ukraine’s battle against "Russian aggression"

Edited September 4, 2014 by astral4eg

[oxmox 73]

The hidden hands behind East-West tug of war in Ukraine

Is it in Ukraine's best interest to negotiate liberalisation with the IMF and the World Bank?

One of the sparks behind current events was the ousting of former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in February. This followed his rejection of an EU Association agreement designed to integrate the Ukraine with the EU. Less well-known, however, is the fact that the EU agreement was tied to a $17bn loan from the IMF. Instead of the EU and IMF deal, Yanukovych chose a Russian aid package worth $15bn plus a 33 percent discount on Russian natural gas.

On both sides of the Atlantic, leaders are playing out a strategy in league with two powerful actors who they have managed to keep quietly in the background so far - the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

The World Bank and the IMF's primary interest in Ukraine is the agricultural sector. Sometimes referred to as the breadbasket of Europe, Ukraine's ample fields of rich black soil allow for such high production volumes of cereals and grain that it is the world's third-largest exporter of corn and fifth of wheat.

The Bank and the IMF have a long history of pressuring economies the world over to make themselves into more profitable environments for large corporations;

Ukraine is just their latest target, and their fingerprints are all over this crisis.

Meanwhile, the people of Ukraine are being treated as most public around the world are treated in these circumstances; by being left out of the decision-making almost entirely.

This programme includes reforms to the public provision of water and energy and, critically, aims at addressing what the World Bank says are the "structural roots" of the economic crisis in Ukraine, including the high cost of doing business in the country. By "business", they do not mean domestic, let alone small businesses - they mean corporate business. In other words, the World Bank has imposed conditions that rig the game in favour of large western interests, and even demanded that the government limit its own power by "removing restrictions that hinder competition and by limiting the role of state 'control' in economic activities."

Ukraine does not allow the use of genetically modified organisms (GMOs) in agriculture, but article 404 of the EU agreement commits both parties to cooperate to "extend the use of biotechnologies".

"Ukraine and, to a wider extent, Eastern Europe, are among the most promising growth markets for farm-equipment giant Deere, as well as seed producers Monsanto and DuPont."

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/ukraine-imf-agriculture-2014731945562212.html

[MissionCreep 12]

Poland

Soviet and Polish soldiers during a break in the quiet moments. District of Warsaw

http://victory.rusarchives.ru/img/photos/2152_1995447253_big.jpg

You forgot this one

Poland 1939. Allies and friends meeting after the invasion.

[vilas 477]

gosh, another Russian call "rusophobic" victims of USSR

he posted some propaganda photos from WW2, forgetting about :

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity_under_Communist_regimes

2) forgetting that when there was uprising in Warsaw in 1944, Soviet troops were standing on other bank of river Vistula, and not even helping Warsaw fighting with Nazis, but denying Ally help,

Allies wanted to paradrop ammunition to fighting city, but Stalin FORBID to land to refuel to US/British transport planes, they COULD drop ammo if they were ALLOWED to refuel at side which was taken by USSR already, but Stalin REFUSED, so instead of bullshit propaganda from USSR, lets see REAL facts, first our officers were murdered in Katyn, than many people were transported to Syberia as slave-workers, than only those who were pro-commie, pro-socialistic were allowed to be in "Polish" army in USSR (called People's Army, Armia Ludowa where officers were commies from USSR who get Polish uniforms but they were native from USSR not even speaking Polish language) and when in Warsaw people stood against Nazis, than Stalin torpedoed help of Allies, as result 100 000 people died city was ruined, than after war commie secret police murdered another > 50 000 people who were against comunism and who wanted democracy, multiplarty system, free market and jailed > 300 000 people , confiscated property, not even saying about ca 80 000 km2 of land which my country lost,

3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

etc. etc. etc.

Edited September 4, 2014 by vilas

[astral4eg 10]

You forgot this one

Poland 1939. Allies and friends meeting after the invasion.

Allies? Was not yet allies, was hostile poland.

then let me remind you that the US helped Hitler to come to power (situation is similar as in Ukraine, foreign financial assistance to the nationalist opposition.), yet it is intensely traded with him arms and oil resources.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/German_American_Bund_NYWTS.jpg/727px-German_American_Bund_NYWTS.jpg

Amerikadeutscher Bund Parade

on eastern 86. Street in New York City, 30. October 1939

Street in Los Angeles in April, 1936.

Adolf Hitler Geburtstagfeier. (birthday celebration) Los Angeles, April 20, 1935. Deutsches Haus Auditorium

[Rydygier 1317]

forgot add that they eat people.

Not forgot. 50 years of communism terror is hard to forget. But about exactly that result of liberating Stalinism better ask pre-war Ukraine. I listed some facts - results of Red Army "liberating". You may deny if you wish, it's your choice, but fact stays a fact. You admit, how Russia is not liked in Poland and other countries of same fate. Ask yourself, why is that actually. Effects always have a causes.

Was not yet allies, was hostile poland.

You mean - it was overwhelming threat of Polish invasion on poor Germany and USSR, that caused pure defensive Ribbentrop-Molotov pact? Seriously, that's what they are teaching children in Russia? Wow. But, I guess, they must teach something such absurdal, if they really want to make Russian proud of own history. Liberating from Hitler USSR gladly helped same Hitler to begin his war by backstabbing Poland and taking (liberating?) in return big part of our territory. I can agree so Stalin wasn't real Hitler's friend and most probably would go west (as far, as possible, to "liberate" as much, as possible) if only Hitler wouldn't so kind and went east a bit earlier.

OK. I'll try to not continue this offtopic here anymore, no matter how hard is be silent hearing such things. Everyone here has internet, so if wants may learn about history and choose what to take as truth. Worthy of saying in this topic anyway just for better understanding current situation and relations between Russia and other countries in the region.

BTW seeing same events in so different ways is IMO one of main reasons of current situation. Seems, both sides (sadly, we again should speak about opposite sides) due to that judge same events in opposite way. The truth is only one, so at least one side is wrong. Another example:

Russian media about Newport

in fact, NATO is back to his old goal of the Cold War - to stop Moscow.

Now, that's interesting choice of words, isn't? Stopping the Moscow is bad thing, but stopping from what exactly, so it is bad?

Edited September 4, 2014 by Rydygier

[Dwarden 1125]

some us still have family members who remember Munich betrayal, Nazi occupation, so called USSR 'liberation' and Warsaw pack/USSR occupation ...

so please don't try bend the history in this discussion cause it's outraging , it's about todays Ukraine

[carlostex 38]

but return to Ukraine

Trolling today: Ukrainian media exec takes infamous internet tactic to TV, dodges conversation with RT

YES!!! This was beautiful!! Finally someone stands against that piece of shit channel!

[Rydygier 1317]

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/11,1138217-KE-przyjela-propozycje-sankcji-wobec-Rosji.html

The European Commission adopted proposals for new sanctions against Russia for access to the capital markets, the defense sector, as well as dual-use goods and sensitive technology.

The EC did not tell the details of the proposed sanctions

A spokeswoman for the European Commission. Foreign policy Maja Kocijanczicz said at Wednesday's press conference in Brussels that the Member States, taking into account current events take a final decision on sanctions.

Earlier there were reports that the presidents of Ukraine and Russia Petro Poroshenko and Vladimir Putin agreed on ways to achieve a ceasefire in the Donbas.

- Member States will decide on penalties, taking into account what will happen on the spot - said Kocijanczicz.

As emphasized, the EC is waiting for more information about the conversation Putin Poroshenko. Reiterated the EU's calls for a ceasefire, putting controls on the Eastern Ukraine that country and stop the flow of weapons and soldiers.

(Hard to expect, so Putin will agree, as by this fact he would admit, what he denies so persistently.)

Preliminary suggestions for sanctions, which on Tuesday saw the PAP include, among others, "to prohibit debt financing (through the purchase of bonds, shares and syndicated lending) defense sector businesses and companies whose main business is the exploration, production and transportation of crude oil and petroleum products, and in which the Russian state has a majority stake or a controlling stake."

Meanwhile:

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/1137772,1138213-Czeski-rzad-poparl-premiera-ws--wylaczenia-sie-z-sankcji-przeciw-Rosji.html?referer=redpol

The Czech government of Prime Minister Bohuslav Sobotka supported on the possible exclusion of the Czech Republic with the new European Union sanctions against Russia, especially in the regulation of so-called. dual use.

The government in Prague explained that the purpose of its activities is the protection of Czech exports of machine. The Cabinet authorized the Prime Minister to further negotiations, including the exclusion of some of the proposals of the community.

- Prime Minister received the mandate to negotiate in a way that does not harm the interests of the Czech economy and at the same time so that the Czech Republic has not found itself outside the mainstream of the EU - said Industry Minister Jan Mladek.

Two things:

1. Union or not, Pact or not - own short-term interest is priority.

2. What I fail to find in all this are any constructive propositions and movements towards real energy independence from Russia.

It's quite disappointing about European/Western/UE/NATO politics, so in all, what is going on and known, only (very) short-term thinking seem to be present. Actions? Sure. But only as long as my wallet doesn't lose weight.

IMO serious problem of the "West" is, Russia most probably is ready to sacrifice much more, than "West". Western people seems mentally too attached to welfare/prosperity/easiness. And what they take as obvious, necessary living standard is much more than in countries like Russia.

Obama in Tallin

According to President Obama, NATO must show unity on the issue of support for Ukraine. - Previously imposed sanctions on Russia had a real impact on it. I think it is important to continue to force the Russians to bear the costs as long as the provisions violate international law. In the end they may realize that such a strategy does not serve Russia well, not to mention the fact that it does not serve well the Ukraine - he said.

The American president added that the international community should support the Ukrainian economy. - We need to be sure that we are helping in the construction of a new bridge to the future of this country - he added.

According to him, an agreement on Ukraine is torpedoing by actions of Moscow. - It is impossible to achieve real political agreement if Russia de facto says it will continue to send tanks, soldiers, weapons and advisors under the guise of separatist forces that do not originate from the Ukraine, and the only option agreement would imply that Ukraine will give up part of the territory or their sovereignty "- said president of the USA in Tallinn.

The leaders of the Baltic countries are hoping that in connection with the aggression of Russia in Ukraine, on the eastern flank of NATO will be deployed permanently allied troops. They point out that the aim of Kremlin's aggression is attaching to the Russia countries, that were part of the Soviet Union and to strengthen its influence in the region.

---------- Post added at 12:05 ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 ----------

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,59154,lbid,8384,title,Rosyjski-analityk-samoloty-USA-w-Estonii-jak-rakiety-ZSRR-na-Kubie,wid,16859092,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=11362c&_ticrsn=5

The announcement by the United States to send additional combat aircraft to Estonia can be compared only to the deployment of Soviet ballistic missiles in Cuba in 1962 - Russian analyst Alexei rated Pilko, quoted by the newspaper "Vedomosti".

Edited September 4, 2014 by Rydygier

[Tonci87 163]

War provoked by Serbia? wtf you talking about?

About 10k terrorists from ANA, UCK supported by NATO, USA and all other countries illegaly entered in Serbian terriroty, and now you say that Serbia provoked war?

In that war Serbia was only against almost whole Europe and NATO.

Did you know that NATO attacked on bridge Serbian train full of innocent peoples and childrens? And you know what is NATO response for that? Its colateral damage. lolz

5 Year old Milica Rakid died from NATO Bombs at night, NATO no apology.

Tons of depleted uranium bombs dropped over Serbia, all of these bombs are forbidden by UN.

In that war NATO supported ANA, UCK whole time, those terrorists are even trained by NATO and USA Officers.

So, by you all countries that are in war againts nato and that don't support NATO are provoking war? Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran? Now Russian's provoking war?

Bunch of BBC and CNN idiots.

You know the UCK are definately bad guys, but at the same time they were not responsible for mass-executions of thousands of civilians, mass rapings, etc. So one could say that the Milosevic regime was the bigger terrorist group and had to be removed....

I´m curious, what did the Serb population at that time think of Milosevic? Why didn´t you get rid of him yourself?

[aleksadragutin 9]

You know the UCK are definately bad guys, but at the same time they were not responsible for mass-executions of thousands of civilians, mass rapings, etc. So one could say that the Milosevic regime was the bigger terrorist group and had to be removed....

I´m curious, what did the Serb population at that time think of Milosevic? Why didn´t you get rid of him yourself?

Wait, mass-executions, thousands of civilians, mass rapings? Where are you getting your info from? Could you please show anything to support that claim? If you're saying that Milosevic was a terrorist, then what is terrorism? Sure Milosevic was bad, but not a terrorist or a greater terrorist than UCK or ANA. UCK was responsible for mass murders and other horrific acts against civilians (that is terrorism - targeting civilians).

Following that logic, one could also say that NATO is the greatest terrorist organisation in the world.

[Tonci87 163]

Wait, mass-executions, thousands of civilians, mass rapings? Where are you getting your info from? Could you please show anything to support that claim? If you're saying that Milosevic was a terrorist, then what is terrorism? Sure Milosevic was bad, but not a terrorist or a greater terrorist than UCK or ANA. UCK was responsible for mass murders and other horrific acts against civilians (that is terrorism - targeting civilians).

Following that logic, one could also say that NATO is the greatest terrorist organisation in the world.

You know Bosnia and stuff..Srebrenica and other towns, doesn´t ring any bells? And yes Milosevic was responsible for that stuff, he gave the orders.

He was trialed on crimes in Croatia, Bosnia and the Kosovo.

Croatia: Crimes against humanity.

Prosecution, torture, executions, inhumane treatment

Warcrimes and violations of the Geneva Convention

Deportation of at least 170000 Croats and other non Serbs.

Massaker of Vukovar

Siege of Dubrovnik

Bosnia:

Genocide

Thousands of killed in the prison camps Omarska and Keraterm

Kosovo:

Forced displacement of the Albanian population.

Removal of at least 800000 civilians.

Crimes against humanity

War crimes

Common to all:

Ethnic cleansings

Imprisonment of people under inhumane conditions

Deportations and crimes against humanity

Destruction and pillaging of public and private objects

Attacks on, and executions of civilians

Artillery, mortar and Sniper attacks on civilians.

etc.

[surpher 1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFYY9V1ZNWA

Insurgents made first combat sortie on former Ukrainian Su-25. They managed to repair it.

That's some very lovely propaganda you've posted there. I love the part where they cut to footage of

.

Must be nice believing everything that comes from state-controlled media... Ignorance is bliss as the saying goes. :rolleyes:

Lipetsk Air Base

[Rydygier 1317]

http://www.pap.pl/palio/html.run?_Instance=cms_www.pap.pl&_PageID=1&s=infopakiet&dz=swiat&idNewsComp=&filename=&idnews=177935&data=&status=biezace&_CheckSum=-846309928

German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen assessed skeptically Russian peace plan for Ukraine. In an interview with ZDF minister confirmed that Germany wants to keep the agreement on cooperation between NATO and Russia; excluded arms supplies to Ukraine.

"I would like, so seven-point plan was a signal of hope" - von der Leyen said in an interview shortly before flying to the NATO summit in Wales. "In the past, Putin has so often said something to then do the opposite, that at this time I would like to wait and see if the words will follow deeds" - said the head of the defense ministry.

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Corriere-della-Sera-nie-trzeba-budowac-muru-sankcji-przed-Rosja,wid,16859632,wiadomosc.html

Daily "Corriere della Sera" warns against building in Europe "wall of sanctions" against Russia. Are we sure - ask the Italian newspaper - that the Putin would have come to power less nationalist than he? According to him, you have to take into account Russia's interests.

"It is true, (Russian President Vladimir) Putin has repeatedly violated international law, but he did also the West when it was needed.'s True, now Putin raised the bar and wants total autonomy for the Donbas (region in eastern Ukraine, where he is fighting against the forces government with the separatists) but diplomacy is to negotiate "- writes columnist log Franco Venturini.

If someone still thinks, so Ukraine's territorial integrity is non-disputable priority, that will be not sold for a bit of easiness... Russia will have its pound of Ukrainian flesh, and all still may be happy. Except Ukraine, but who cares. Taking part of one country by another by force is for some apparently acceptable way of action in Europe (after all, nothing new).

"Loud chattering of the saber, which embraces Europe, you have to stop without capitulating to Putin, but taking into account some of its interests, as the West did it in front of the Kremlin, even during the Cold War" - says the commentator. It is necessary in its opinion, the development of more effective than the "usual sanctions" strategy that would be able to "restore the political-military dialogue bogey as a guarantee."

The most important question we must now ask ourselves the West - by Venturini - reads: "Whither Europe that some people have seen up to the Urals and others to Vladivostok?". "How can we alleviate the understandable anxiety of the states, which for centuries were the favorite victims of history, and then liberated from the Soviet empire?" - Added a commentator.

I would ask, where ends, what begins from soft policy of concessions to the injust aggressor behind the back of the victim. Seems clear, what Russia wants. And right to give away this has no one but Ukraine itself.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Rydygier

[beastcat 14]

Lipetsk Air Base

Are you some kind of magician?

[astral4eg 10]

some us still have family members who remember Munich betrayal, Nazi occupation, so called USSR 'liberation' and Warsaw pack/USSR occupation ...

so please don't try bend the history in this discussion cause it's outraging , it's about todays Ukraine

okay, let each one will have its own version of history.

And one question, USSR no longer existed a quarter century, but the anti-Soviet-Russian propaganda continues hard shit on our history, what is the ultimate goal?

[Tonci87 163]

okay, let each one will have its own version of history.

And one question, USSR no longer existed a quarter century, but the anti-Soviet-Russian propaganda continues hard shit on our history, what is the ultimate goal?

Yeah it continues now with Putin, Europe has actually been quite cool with Russia since the fall of the Soviet union....

[ProfTournesol 956]

One of Putin's favorite hobbies (among others) : Rewriting Russia's history.

But yes, that's anti soviet propaganda.

[Tonci87 163]

One of Putin's favorite hobbies (among others) : Rewriting Russia's history.

But yes, that's anti soviet propaganda.

OMG really?

[vilas 477]

if talk about propganda, than only propaganda is started here (repeatedly) by Russians who come and say "Ukraine fascists, Soviet heroes liberated Europe" on and on

it looks following:

Russian comes to forum:

"Ukraine fascists, we fight fascism, USSR liberated Europe"

answer "no, USSR commited crimes"

"bullshit, rusophobia, show facts"

answer "wikipedia - soviet crimes articles"

"stop this hate!!!"

repeated already few times before

[astral4eg 10]

if talk about propganda, than only propaganda is started here (repeatedly) by Russians who come and say "Ukraine fascists, Soviet heroes liberated Europe" on and on

it looks following:

Russian comes to forum:

"Ukraine fascists, we fight fascism, USSR liberated Europe"

answer "no, USSR commited crimes"

"bullshit, rusophobia, show facts"

answer "wikipedia - soviet crimes articles"

"stop this hate!!!"

repeated already few times before

in general, if take Western version and Eastern then truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Tonci87 163]

New ice report is up, won´t link here due to very graphic content.

[ProfTournesol 956]

New ice report is up, won´t link here due to very graphic content.

It's amazing that nobody even tries to bury those dead soldiers...

[mistyronin 1181]

in general, if take Western version and Eastern then truth is somewhere in the middle.

I don't get much the "Western" appellative in this case, as the same history is teach in most of Asia, Africa and South America. I've workmates from India, Rep. Dominicana, Senegal, etc. and so on; and we all studied mainly the same history ( yeah, we have some nice talks during the launch time ).

So you better say the common accepted history vs Putin's version of it.

The difference is that the common accepted history has been debated in symposiums, meetings, contrasted, etc.

While if you dare to criticize Putin's version inside Russia you may end in trouble.

Edited September 4, 2014 by MistyRonin