Ukraine General

[vilas 473]

E: testing and showing NATO that Russia is empire and can do what it wants (he tested that Merkel will sacrifise others)

F: fear all ex-commie countries and test that Nato and EU would be divided (showing them they are helpless - thug bully politics "u sylnovo vsegda bessylny vynovat")

no we see that Yanuk was Putin puppet , cause removal of Yanuk had such consequences,

maybe also snipers on Maidan were hired by Putin, just to start "rebelion in the East" cause other way they would not had occasion to take Crimea and do some harm to Ukraine

look from perspective of half year - who gained the most ? Russia , they have Crimea, they can probably soon have industry and oil of Ukraine if situation will go like it goes now, Ukrainians will be pushed to role of being farmers and cheap labor or cheap sex toys (women in western brothels),

in 2016 Germans/Brits/Dutch whatever will start again selling hightech to Russia and using Ukrainian girls as toys for their old guys (Ukrainians without industry and with debts after war will be living in total poverty), Tusk in EU represents not Poland but he is Merkel pupet (he tried to do the same to Poland but without war, to put country down for needs of western corporations, western capital, banks),

in March 2011 Polish advisor of security to President office foreseen all this, i wrote about it half year ago,

in March 2011 he wrote that president of Ukraine will die, there will be riots organized in Eastern Ukraine and Russia will take Crimea

but in 2011 Polish president not accepted this analysis on Ukraine (cause advisor is right wing and president is mainstream left wing)

Edited September 5, 2014 by vilas

[surpher 1]

LostIvan: Website collating info on Russian soldiers/mercenaries in Ukraine.

[Rydygier 1302]

Interveiw with Romuald Szeremietiew, ex-Deputy Minister of National Defence of Poland

Strengthening the eastern flank of the Atlantic Alliance will affect Russia's actions?

- Certainly NATO action will effectively deter. Any sign of firmness and strength in relations with Russia is, from our point of view beneficial. The only thing, Russia may afford in such a confrontation with NATO forces is the propaganda campaign. Already we hear from the Russian pro-government media that the current summit of the North Atlantic Alliance is the worst and least significant in decades. Given the disparity of power between Russia and what has NATO as a whole, strengthening the eastern flank should effectively discourage the Russian Federation to further aggression. Therefore, I would not affraid, that the Alliance will aggravate the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. We can expect the policy of intimidation on the part of Vladimir Putin, but not supported by any fulfilling of these threats.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov believes that Ukraine's aspirations to join NATO undermine efforts for a peaceful solution to the crisis ...

- This is part of a policy of intimidation and propaganda, which I mentioned earlier. If Ukraine wants to strengthen cooperation with Russia, that it would not compromise the peace, however, resolve the conflict threaten any action freeing of Ukrainians of Russia, as well as democratizing the country. Sergei Lavrov is a master of propaganda. Many times we had on this evidence, even when the Russian army carried out the offensive in the east of Ukraine, and Lavrov asserted that Russia is not a side in this conflict.

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Ukraine ceasefire deal 'signed'

[beastcat 14]

http://youtu.be/75e0gqpa8mY

Lugansk airport with our favorite terrorist "journalist"

[Tonci87 163]

Wow they really fucked up that place.....

[surpher 1]

(Business Insider) Estonian President: One Of Our Counterintelligence Officers Was Abducted And Taken Into Russia At Gunpoint

The officer was part of the Internal Security Service (ISS), the national agency in Estonia for counterintelligence and corruption investigations. The officer was leaving a security checkpoint after investigating an incident on the Estonian side of the Luhamaa border checkpoint with Russia when he was taken on the morning of September 5th.

[oxmox 73]

They only have 16 permanent observers on two checkpoints, its really as easy as driving around them. They don't patrol and they don't use drones (and probably won't because russia wont allow it). Yet they still reported on russian UAVs, which are used to watch the border, so the russians can time and place it so they can't be seen or hit.

Well I can only post about what I did read.

They have these 16 observer at the two checkpoints at the boarder but altogether it seems that are more obeserver in the Ukraine. I have read press reports reporting that currently are almost 300 observer in the Ukraine. Allegedly 900 were prepared for the presidental election in May. The kiev post reports it will be increased to 500 http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/osce-mission-in-ukraine-may-be-increased-to-500-observers-363506.html.

I did read about the drones in this article: http://www.wienerzeitung.at/nachrichten/europa/europastaaten/657175_Oesterreichische-Drohnen-fuer-Ukraine-Mission.html. They will need it especially after the peace talks will be positive not only for short duration and a neutral organisation like the OSCE will watch it.

---------- Post added at 04:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:18 PM ----------

Yesterday was a really interesting Talk Show on the main german TV, if some of you here in the forums understand german you should watch it (maybe I will post later some sentences in english from the content of the discussion):

One russian and ukrainian embassy representants

Harald Kujat, airforce general, former Chief of Federal Armed Forces Staff, former Chairman of NATO

EU President

Journalists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4UitXrACZE

Edited September 5, 2014 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

Well I can only post about what I did read.

They have these 16 observer only at the two checkpoints at the boarder but altogether it is highly possible that are more obeserver in the Ukraine. I have read press reports reporting that currently are almost 300 observer in the Ukraine. Allegedly 900 were prepared for the presidental election in May. The kiev post reports it will be increased to 500 http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/osce-mission-in-ukraine-may-be-increased-to-500-observers-363506.html.

I did read about the drones in this article: http://www.wienerzeitung.at/nachrichten/europa/europastaaten/657175_Oesterreichische-Drohnen-fuer-Ukraine-Mission.html. They will need it especially after hopefully the peace talks will be positive and a neutral organisation like the OSCE will watch it.

It was russia who invited them, but they were only allowed to monitor these two checkpoints, if I'm not mistaken. And 300 observers for the entire country is not really that much and even if all of them would patrol the border it would still be possible to slip a tank or two past the border here and there. Also about the drones, the article didn't say they are going to watch the border, only hard to reach positions.

[oxmox 73]

And 300 observers for the entire country is not really that much and even if all of them would patrol the border it would still be possible to slip a tank or two past the border here and there.

I agree, even the 300 is really a low amount but I dont know about the standard procedures and how many are sent on average by the OSCE or UN in such a conflict. This is probably very individual.

Wow they really fucked up that place.....

You should check out the new VICE news videos to see both sides...

Edited September 5, 2014 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

Yesterday was a really interesting Talk Show on the main german TV, if some of you here in the forums understand german you should watch it (maybe I will later post some sentences in english from the content of the discussion):

One russian and ukrainian embassy representants

Harald Kujat, airforce general, former Chief of Federal Armed Forces Staff, former Chairman of NATO

EU President

Journalists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4UitXrACZE

5 minutes in and I already want to punch that russian -snip- in the face. It's like they are getting special training to constantly lie and repeat the same debunked "arguments".

The russians had a right to be in Crimea? Yeah, right my ass. If they can't tell the difference between being stationed inside their military bases and taking over cities and surrounding foreign bases they seriously have to rethink their view on life. Why don't we have soldiers from the US bases in Germany surround german bases and completely take over german cities? I can already tell its going to be a real pain to watch (or rather listen) it to the end.

[oxmox 73]

5 minutes in and I already want to punch that russian -snip- in the face. It's like they are getting special training to constantly lie and repeat the same debunked "arguments".

The russians had a right to be in Crimea? Yeah, right my ass. If they can't tell the difference between being stationed inside their military bases and taking over cities and surrounding foreign bases they seriously have to rethink their view on life. Why don't we have soldiers from the US bases in Germany surround german bases and completely take over german cities? I can already tell its going to be a real pain to watch (or rather listen) it to the end.

lol.....keep calm :D

The important messages did come from Harald Kujat, I can agree with his messages and he is very diplomatic and cautios.

Iam at least happy that the peace talks did lead to a ceasefire, this opens new chances for diplomatic talks and that is the only chance for peace.

Edited September 5, 2014 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

lol.....keep calm :D

The important messages did come from Harald Kujat, I can agree with his messages and he is very diplomatic and cautios.

Iam at least happy that the peace talks did lead to a ceasefire, this opens new chances for diplomatic talks and that is the only chance for peace.

I really doubt there is going to be a peaceful solution, there is too much pointing against it and its not Putins way anyway, not mentioning that Ukraine won't give Dontesk and Lugansk to Russia. It may become a frozen conflict after he expands his territory some more, but not now with the huge reinforcements and open russian military involvement.

[Zavod 1]

Russia attacks the Ukraine from the air. Video proof!

--- idiotic video removed

Edited September 5, 2014 by MadDogX

[ProfTournesol 956]

You should check out the new VICE news videos to see both sides...

Yup, just watched it, i hope the cease fire will be a relief for those poor civilians trapped in the shelled towns.

[maddogx 13]

I think it's time to remind everyone that this is a serious thread is about current events in the Ukraine.

Not a joke thread.

Not a pro-Russian VS. anti-Russian debate.

Not a debate about Serbia.

etc.

Since this is now the third or fourth reminder, users who continue to derail the thread will receive infractions and lose posting rights in this thread for doing so, starting now.

Again, please stick to current news related to Ukraine.

[surpher 1]

(The Guardian) Putin walks a tightrope as evidence mounts of Russians dying in Ukraine

Evidence that Russian soldiers have been dying in Ukraine is mounting. Someone shamefully stripping a paratrooper’s grave of its name plate doesn’t make that paratrooper any less dead, you see.

Before the ceasefire announcement today, Russian state TV was forced to bat its collective eyelids and announce that all dead Russian soldiers were in Ukraine strictly on a voluntary basis. Right.

Public opinion polls, meanwhile, paint a picture of a nation that doesn’t want to fight. The number of Russians willing to support their government in an open war with Ukraine has slipped – 36% of Russians told Levada-Center “definitely yes†in March. That figure stands at just 13% today.

(RU MFA) Comment by the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs on the NATO summit in Wales

The gist and tone of statements on the situation around Ukraine and the announced plans of NATO countries to conduct a joint drill with Ukraine on its territory before the end of this year are bound to escalate tensions, threaten the start of progress regarding a peaceful settlement in Ukraine and contribute to the deepening of the split in Ukrainian society. Moreover, they testify to NATO’s unreserved support for Kiev’s neo-Nazi and extremist forces, including the Right Sector.

(ITAR-TASS) Estonian security officer detained in Russia’s Pskov region

“A citizen of Estonia, Eston Kohver, who is an officer of the Estonian security police bureau, was detained on the territory of the Russian Federation,†the press center said. “He had a Taurus handgun, an amount of €5,000 in cash, equipment for covert audio recording, and materials indicative of an intelligence mission."

[oxmox 73]

Yup, just watched it, i hope the cease fire will be a relief for those poor civilians trapped in the shelled towns.

The question is if Poroshenko will stay in power because he is under pressure. The elections were not hold throughout the whole Ukraine, especially in the Donbass area. The Ukranian civilians had to expirience the gruesome war also from their own Ukrainian military and this has influence on their opinion on the current administration. The whole Crimea with a huge percentage of pro-russians did not take part in the elections aswell. I did read only around 30 million did vote and 10-15 million did not participate due to the conflict.

The new elections will be held in October this year.

Edited September 5, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

The question is if Poroshenko will stay in power because he is under pressure. The elections were not hold throughout the whole Ukraine, especially in the Donbass area.

The interesting fact, is that some of the civilians from the videos you suggested us to watch ( from Vice ); prove that people from Donetsk was able to vote ( at least some ), and voted for Poroshenko ( which some regret now ).

So I do really believe Poroshenko's election was legit and his support quite wide among all the factions.

In fact Putin himself said that the election was valid, so no "nazi junta". Although he has changed his point of view recently, I guess when he realized that he wasn't able to mold Poroshenko at pleasure.

[oxmox 73]

The interesting fact, is that some of the civilians from the videos you suggested us to watch ( from Vice ); prove that people from Donetsk was able to vote ( at least some ), and voted for Poroshenko ( which some regret now ).

So I do really believe Poroshenko's election was legit and his support quite wide among all the factions.

In fact Putin himself said that the election was valid, so no "nazi junta". Although he has changed his point of view recently, I guess when he realized that he wasn't able to mold Poroshenko at pleasure.

Yes, due to wikipedia around 20% of the ballot stations were open for elections in the Donbas region. I did not mean the election was not vaild, I wrote that not every part in the Ukraine could participate in the elections. The Crimea is out of the game in the meanwhile, their votes are not to be count anymore and they never did vote.

-------------------------------------------------

I have to add something since I mentioned the "Ukrainian Army" and civilians in one sentence. We did talk some pages ago about volunteers in this conflict. Experts said that in general the Ukrainian Army is in a desolate condition, and I did read that volunteers in such battalions often lack the proper training. By the way, ethnic russians are fighting against speratists aswell the Donbas Battalion was created by one of them and the battalion is privately funded. Probably most of the reader here did hear of them already in the media, just adding it.

There is a "volunteer army" in form of several batallions in the fights involved against the seperatists:

* Donbas/Donetzk Battalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas_Battalion

* Asov Battalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

* Dnipro Battalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnipro_Battalion

* Batkivshchyna Battalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batkivshchyna_Battalion

.....these Battalions are or were heavily involved in the fights against seperatists. Maybe there are more of such volunteer battalions.

Edited September 5, 2014 by oxmox

[jakerod 254]

There is a "volunteer army" in form of several batallions in the fights involved against the seperatists:

* Donbas/Donetzk Battalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas_Battalion

* Asov Battalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

* Dnipro Battalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnipro_Battalion

.....these Battalions are or were heavily involved in the fights against seperatists.

This is an interesting article: On the road of death after the Battle for Ilovaysk

I feel like they're implying that those battalions may have been wiped out or at least messed up pretty good/bad.

[oxmox 73]

The list goes on .....I didnt know that so many volunteer battalions exist fighting against the seperatists. Is this "a war of volunteers" a partly private financed war ???

My question therefore: How many regular troops of the Ukrainian Army is operating and actually fighting against the seperatists in the eastern regions ?

* Donbas/Donetzk Battalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas_Battalion

* Asov Battalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

* Dnipro Battalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnipro_Battalion

* Batkivshchyna Battalion (political main party)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batkivshchyna_Battalion

* Aidar Battalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidar_Battalion

* Bogdan Battalion

* Chernihiv Battalion

* Ivano-Frankivsk Battalion

* Kharkiv-1 Battalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Battalion

* Kharkiv-2 Battalion

* Kherson Battalion

* Kirovohrad Battalion

* Kremenchuk Battalion

* Kryvbas Battalion

* Kyivska Rus Battalion

* Luhansk-1 Battalion

* Lviv Battalion

* Maidan Battalion - created by NGO´s !!??

* Poltava Battalion

* Shakhtar Battalion

* Sich Battalion

* Skif Battalion

-------> I stop listing more from the list, if you want to find more battalions look here. You have to filter official military and which are not participating in the anti-terror mission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_defense_battalion_%28Ukraine%29

This is an interesting article: On the road of death after the Battle for Ilovaysk

I feel like they're implying that those battalions may have been wiped out or at least messed up pretty good/bad

Thx for the link

Edited September 5, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

The list goes on .....I didnt know that so many volunteer battalions exist fighting against the seperatists. Is this "a war of volunteers" a partly private financed war ???

The thing is that the Ukrainian Gov. got the idea to create a National Guard that was mainly a volunteer platform to gather as many "soldiers" and as fast as possible ( obviously if that could be achieve in a cheap way, better ), and they organized themselves in "free battalions".

So it's not a surprise, but if you study any conflict alike during history, you will see that is quite a pattern. You can see that structure in the actual Iraq or Syrian conflict with a lot of different groups working with similar goals, or during the Balkan's war, or the Spanish Civil war, etc.

If you want to go a few centuries ago, you can even see the same pattern during the Independence War in the US, that every colony/state had it's own militia ( what later would become the US National Guard ).

[oxmox 73]

The thing is that the Ukrainian Gov. got the idea to create a National Guard that was mainly a volunteer platform to gather as many "soldiers" and as fast as possible ( obviously if that could be achieve in a cheap way, better ), and they organized themselves in "free battalions".

So it's not a surprise, but if you study any conflict alike during history, you will see that is quite a pattern. You can see that structure in the actual Iraq or Syrian conflict with a lot of different groups working with similar goals, or during the Balkan's war, or the Spanish Civil war, etc.

If you want to go a few centuries ago, you can even see the same pattern during the Independence War in the US, that every colony/state had it's own militia ( what later would become the US National Guard ).

The National Guard is subject to the interior ministry and is a special unit revived not long ago supporting in the anti-terror mission as long I see, but what about the official military forces of the Ukraine they have at least almost 90.000 ground troops ?

How many of them are operating against the seperatists, are there any infos about manpower ? Do the volunteer battalions outweigh in the fights ?

The "volunteer army" had almost 6000 men, at least the official number.

edit: yes you are right I did check it again, partly or fully private financed "volunteer battalions" are part of the national guard...crazy.

Edited September 5, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

Seems that the Ukrainian crisis start to affect other neighbors. After the last weeks Russian incursions over Finland's airspace, now seems that Russian FSB troops have kidnapped an Estonian officer.

( The Guardian ) Estonian security officer abducted on border with Russia

An Estonian security officer has been abducted during an operation to stop an illegal crossing on the Russian border and taken at gunpoint across to Russia, Estonia's internal security service has said.

Estonia's foreign minister, Urmas Paet, said Tallinn had contacted Moscow about Friday's incident on a border that in recent years has seen a number of incidents involving smuggling, illegal migration and weapons trafficking.

"He was captured using force at gunpoint. He was fulfilling his duties preventing cross-border criminal activity," a security service statement said. The unidentified abductors, at the Luhamaa checkpoint, had jammed radio communication and used a smoke grenade.

Russian "official" version:

( ITAR-TASS ) Estonian security officer detained in Russia’s Pskov region

- - -

edit: yes you are right I did check it again, partly or fully private financed "volunteer battalions" are part of the national guard...crazy.

It may seem crazy but it's quite a pattern in military history. Basically it's a way to recruit a huge amount of people fast and cheap, the problem is obviously that each group has it's own rules, and sometimes there are even clashes between them ( as far as I know that hasn't happened yet in Ukraine ).

Edited September 5, 2014 by MistyRonin