Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

I know the history - constant raids of mauntaineers to Cossack villages (Grozny was among them) and thus need to defeat Chechens (they were most active among mountain bandits).

why there is no hate of anyone against Switzerland or Sweden or Norway or Canada or New Zealand or Luxemburg ? because THEY NEVER OCCUPIED nor attacked anyone since centuries, so everyone loves them and have no issues with them and there is no nationalism against them, simple case

Last country Sweden tried to occupy was Russia:) They were crushed here and it was enough for them (until ISAF participation).

New Zealand? Canada? Why don't you say about Japan, USA, France, UK, Australia (I mean Aussies in Vietnam)? Sure small countries (either by population or territory) that were former colonies physically cannot invade. But their former metropoly can.

does anyone hate Czech ? no, cause Czech never attacked anyone since ages

I don't hate them but I have some unpleasant words to say about massive collaboration and diligent work for arming Wehrmacht.

so it is natural that after hundreds of years of Russian than Soviet oppression Ukrainian nationalists hated Russia,

Hint: read about Austro-Hungarian affairs with Ukrainian nationalists. To be exact, Austro-Hungarian efforts of building and raising those nationalists in Galizia for sake of fighting with Russian Empire. I may surprise you but all the roots of Ukrainian nationalism are there. It's Austro-Hungarian product.

[Dwarden 1125]

> I don't hate them but I have some unpleasant words to say about massive collaboration and diligent work for arming Wehrmacht.

I suggest you learn history then, starting with forced Munchen treaty over CSR to give up Sudeten land

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement

as it wasn't voluntary ... it was after full force occupation which was in direct violation of the Munchen treaty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II

also let me remind you who collaborated with Nazi Germany since 1930s and who attacked Poland with them

yes, it was the 'good' USSR ...

Edited July 15, 2014 by Dwarden

[maturin 12]

You have a point here, but still do you think it would be better if Russia was ruled by someone like Yeltsin, who is not capable to rule this country?

Yeltsin was elected president in the middle of one of the most profoundly terrible (and essentially inevitable) depressions in the history of any modern state, combined with absolute collapse of the political system, its political values, social scheme of organization... everything. Yeltsin may have been an incompetent drunk, but there is literally no one and no thing that could have weathered that perfect storm of events (caused by contradictions in the unsustainable mess that was the Soviet Union). People fixate on Western economists and shock therapy, but the reality is that the 90s crash was simple inertial collapse, not any kind of transition. The Kremlin could have turned to John Lennon for economic advice and regional managers and petty officials still would have pilfered the entire economy in order to get rich.

If you think that someone like Putin would have fared even slightly better in such a situation, you are borderline delusional. What, because he can give a good speech and ride a horse shirtless? If you think that the main cause of the change in Russia's fortunes is the change is leader, you have been duped by the cult of personality. Russia since 1989 is not a story of great man history, but people are incapable of thinking about Russia in any other terms, so they credit the small men at the top with the massive changes that have occured across this vast land. Russia has simply ridden out the difficulties, and the long period of stabilization began before Putin, but he was poised to get the credit. All he had to do was use his immense executive power to reign in a few oligarchs and then sell oil. You think Yeltsin didn't know how to sell oil?

Putin's name would have been dirt, had he stood on that tank in Yeltsin's place and tried to govern in the crises that followed. And he would have done much the same as Yelstin, with the same sort of moderate Russian nationalism on his lips.

Likewise, it doesn't take some sort of genius or superman to stay the course and mine and pump all your natural resources out of the county while spouting cliches about WWII. No need to come up with any particular sort of ideology: just raise peoples' pensions and poke the pressure points of nationalism and historical memory. The standard of living gets better (any other result would be a crime in a country with the infrastructure and human capital that Russia can boast), and people will tolerate your mediocre visionless party of swindlers and thieves. Yeltsin could very easily have enjoyed the same successes as Putin, had their paces been switched.

Edited July 15, 2014 by maturin

[mistyronin 1181]

Interesting analysis Maturin.

So US and Israeli administration must make no sense to you because US and Israeli border guard was/is responsible for infiltration of the terrorists and weapons. But it hadn't stop from invading of A-stan and Lebanon (twice) and bombing Syria several times.

But that was the excuse for the Afghanistan Invasion. The Talibans are only a problem for their own people, Al Qaeda and all the ones that directed attacks agains US were financed by Saudis.

Same with Israel, what they are doing is trying to enlarge their vital space, taking the Golan Heights, etc.

You didn't see the difference. Mexican migrants and gangs don't get full support of Mexican government, unlike Basaev and other rebel commanders did from Mashadov's 'government'.

Yeah well, the Mexican Gov, doesn't do much about it, in fact part of the army and Gov are bribed ( including army generals and governors ) or threatened by the mafias that infiltrate drugs, people and other stuff.

[Dwarden 1125]

Taliban was created by Pakistan ISI as Trojan horse into Afghanistan ...

so while it worked for while it backfired as any radical solution and threatens now even Pakistan itself and all around

Israel returned whole Sinai to Egypt, which was one of major landmass gains in single encounter since ww2

in exchange for such fragile thing as peace

so if the Palestine 'leaders' really wanted, they could have peace 25 years ago

[astral4eg 10]

>

yes, it was the 'good' USSR ...

Right, in 20th century US have ~50 military operations, Russia ~26.

[negah 26]

Yeltsin was elected president in the middle of one of the most profoundly terrible (and essentially inevitable) depressions in the history of any modern state, combined with absolute collapse of the political system, its political values, social scheme of organization... everything. Yeltsin may have been an incompetent drunk, but there is literally no one and no thing that could have weathered that perfect storm of events (caused by contradictions in the unsustainable mess that was the Soviet Union). People fixate on Western economists and shock therapy, but the reality is that the 90s crash was simple inertial collapse, not any kind of transition. The Kremlin could have turned to John Lennon for economic advice and regional managers and petty officials still would have pilfered the entire economy in order to get rich.

If you think that someone like Putin would have fared even slightly better in such a situation, you are borderline delusional. What, because he can give a good speech and ride a horse shirtless? If you think that the main cause of the change in Russia's fortunes is the change is leader, you have been duped by the cult of personality. Russia since 1989 is not a story of great man history, but people are incapable of thinking about Russia in any other terms, so they credit the small men at the top with the massive changes that have occured across this vast land. Russia has simply ridden out the difficulties, and the long period of stabilization began before Putin, but he was poised to get the credit. All he had to do was use his immense executive power to reign in a few oligarchs and then sell oil. You think Yeltsin didn't know how to sell oil?

Putin's name would have been dirt, had he stood on that tank in Yeltsin's place and tried to govern in the crises that followed. And he would have done much the same as Yelstin, with the same sort of moderate Russian nationalism on his lips.

Likewise, it doesn't take some sort of genius or superman to stay the course and mine and pump all your natural resources out of the county while spouting cliches about WWII. No need to come up with any particular sort of ideology: just raise peoples' pensions and poke the pressure points of nationalism and historical memory. The standard of living gets better (any other result would be a crime in a country with the infrastructure and human capital that Russia can boast), and people will tolerate your mediocre visionless party of swindlers and thieves. Yeltsin could very easily have enjoyed the same successes as Putin, had their paces been switched.

Yeah I see how Yeltsin would have done as well as Putin. Appearing drunk to international meetings, or not appearing at all because he was sleeping drunk in his plane, or trying to direct a german orchestra

(of course drunk). He made the whole world laugh about Russia. Yeah he was a good president. I bet US would give everything to see another Yeltsin today.

Next thing about economy. I see how allowing mafia to do whatever they want benefits the country itself.

Sure Putin may be mafioso himself (maybe its also what our propaganda likes to repeat), but he is the one who controls it and uses it to benefit not only himself but also the country. Putin stopped the uncontrolled theft of everything what could be stolen. Yeah now those oligarchs like Chodorkowsky are hiding in Europe and crying about evil Putin and how good they are. Yeltsin on the other hand just let the things go downhill while he had the party of his life.

For someone Yeltsin as the ruler of Russia is the best option - "Take as much souvereignity as you can"©, demoralised and unfunded army with rotten equipment, leaving all the foreign friendly countries alone, leaving huge arms stockpiles to separatists etc.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Right, in 20th century US have ~50 military operations, Russia ~26.

But one of them give them the control of all Eastern Europe.

[Dwarden 1125]

Right, in 20th century US have ~50 military operations, Russia ~26.

cause US actions are well documented and most of US operations are now unclassified ...

while all the smaller skirmishes or indirect ops of USSR are either not listed or still classified

also US is way more active ... If some major natural disaster happens ,what you see ? USAF and US Navy are there helping

and I would not protest if Russia was visible more ... but not in way of "we want our empire back"

[negah 26]

cause US actions are well documented and most of US operations are now unclassified ...

while all the smaller skirmishes or indirect ops of USSR are either not listed or still classified

also US is way more active ... If some major natural disaster happens ,what you see ? USAF and US Navy are there helping

and I would not protest if Russia was visible more ... but not in way of "we want our empire back"

Here you go:

http://www.mchs.gov.ru/activities/international/Itogi_mezhdunarodnoj_dejatelnosti

http://www.mchs.gov.ru/document/218206

Its in russian, but you can use google translator.

[Tonci87 163]

New Vice report. I really don't like that radical leader and what he is doing...

[maturin 12]

Yeah I see how Yeltsin would have done as well as Putin. Appearing drunk to international meetings, or not appearing at all because he was sleeping drunk in his plane, or trying to direct a german orchestra

(of course drunk). He made the whole world laugh about Russia. Yeah he was a good president. I bet US would give everything to see another Yeltsin today.

Next thing about economy. I see how allowing mafia to do whatever they want benefits the country itself.

Sure Putin may be mafioso himself (maybe its also what our propaganda likes to repeat), but he is the one who controls it and uses it to benefit not only himself but also the country. Putin stopped the uncontrolled theft of everything what could be stolen. Yeah now those oligarchs like Chodorkowsky are hiding in Europe and crying about evil Putin and how good they are. Yeltsin on the other hand just let the things go downhill while he had the party of his life.

I never called Yeltsin a good president. I believe I even called him incompetent, but nice try. Anyways, the total breakdown in his sobriety and respect occurred after most of Russia's disastrous 90s were over. Chechnya had already happened and so had the economic collapse.

Putin stopped the uncontrolled theft by making a few examples and then letting the rest of Russia's criminal oligarch elite meld seamlessly with the power structure. Russia is still getting robbed, it's just getting robbed by the same guys who are now Kremlin supporters. Again, the main point is that Putin inherited a different situation than Yeltsin did. No amount of shirtless horseback riding could have stopped the cannibalization of the Soviet economy. The robbers could only be brought under a modicum of control once they had consolidated into a handful of oligarchs who had a stake in the system and had acquired a sort of legitimacy. But oh, wow, Putin took some guy's pen and saved the country. So shout the credulous fools in a political theater.

[surpher 1]

:rolleyes:

Camera Location (roughly)

[beastcat 14]

http://youtu.be/-4VK7PrV8-0

http://youtu.be/Aep4T8k9jng

Grads are shelling Lugansk all day now from Russia. Heres the location of the first video: https://maps.google.com.ua/maps?ll=48.072798,39.924132&spn=0.18,0.3&cbll=48.072798,39.924132&layer=c&panoid=q5wvuhrZaJ5gi_JELiD5Fg&cbp=,291.05,,0,-0.0&output=classic&dg=ntvb

Location posted by YouTube User "Serg Ltd"

Edit: The "self defence force" of the LPR (LNR) is also firing grads out of the city:

http://youtu.be/isQTCqS3l1c

Most of the rockets are aimed at the city itself, however military checkpoints have been targeted as well.

http://youtu.be/OTR75xcFfFE

Many parts of the centre are completely destroyed. The number of killed civilians is unknown. Edited July 16, 2014 by beastcat

[Tonci87 163]

How trustworthy is that? I can tell that the last video doesn't show Grad impacts.

[beastcat 14]

The last video is from the morning, so its not from the grads that were fired in the videos. Since I'm not an expert I can't analyse and tell you what those impacts are from, however, it is pretty much 100% certain that the Grad fire from yesterday was coming from Russia. There are a lot of videos on YT, Facebook, VN and Twitter made by Russians with the coresponding locations (I even linked one in the first post, you can compare for yourself).

Aparrently the army has disabled 3 grads yesterday.

[spooky lynx 73]

Some sources claim that yesterday a number of Polish vz.77 Dana SPGs, HQ vehicles and trucks with crews were disembarked in Odessa seaport and then went to Razdelnaya railway station for further transporting.

[mistyronin 1181]

( Al Jazeera ) Russia 'shoots down Ukraine attack jet'

( BBC ) Ukraine conflict: Russia accused of shooting down jet

[Tonci87 163]

So you are telling me that the rebels fire Grads from Russian soil without beeing bothered by the Russian Army?

[beastcat 14]

They work together so closely, that for all we know it might even be the army firing, since they are moving countless soldiers, tanks, artillery and helicopters to the border.

But yeah, its 100% certain that Grads are being shot from russia into Lugansk. It even somewhat ties in to Ukraines claim that the two airplanes that got shot down this week were shot down from russian soil as well.

It is also clear that the russian army is not doing anything against it and that its almost impossible that it happened without their permission, since the amount of military at the border is extremely high, especially around Lugansk.

This is kind of like all the times where Russia went "Dozens of tanks, BTRs, BMPs, Grads and Urals with Soldiers crossed our border? We don't know anything. What do you mean all of them had russian documents? They must have been stolen! Dozens of our tanks are getting stolen all the time, how are we supposed to notice?"

http://youtu.be/77WYwxhKtIE

Also they shot down another plane today.

Edited July 17, 2014 by beastcat

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

http://rt.com/news/173616-malaysian-crash-ukraine-border/

Malaysian plane crashed in E-Ukraine, 280ppl onboard with 15 crew

Shot down or crash, but strange place to crash it,and then who shot it down? lets see how long it takes to blame Russia!

[spooky lynx 73]

So you are telling me that the rebels fire Grads from Russian soil without beeing bothered by the Russian Army?

Those Grads were at Ukrainian territory just from a couple of km from the the border.

[papanowel 120]

People are crazy... firing a missile at a civilian plane (If it's true) is way bayond me. You need a BUK or something like that to hit these.

I can't believe they let commercial flight to fly above a war zone like that...

Edited July 17, 2014 by Papanowel

[busso 10]

http://rt.com/news/173616-malaysian-crash-ukraine-border/

Malaysian plane crashed in E-Ukraine, 280ppl onboard with 15 crew

Shot down or crash, but strange place to crash it,and then who shot it down? lets see how long it takes to blame Russia!

I think the propaganda machines of both sides are about to go into overdrive...

[mistyronin 1181]

Shot down or crash, but strange place to crash it,and then who shot it down? lets see how long it takes to blame Russia!

There is only one side of the conflict that has been shooting down planes. More than anything, because pro-Russians don't have planes. Specifically this week 3 Ukrainian Armed Forces planes have been shot down there.

There were already serious points that indicated Russian involvement.

Obviously right now there is still not enough info to know who has been, but the past events point clearly in one direction.

From your RT article:

The Donetsk People’s Republic, where fighting continues between Kiev and opposition, has rejected any involvement in the incident, as there are reports that the plane was shot down.

It said its self-defense forces just don’t have such military equipment.

Funny thing, is that someone Russia or them have been shooting down planes at high altitude there, and if the DPR say thwt they have not been... there is only one left.

Shooting down civilian airliners full of people is a really serious war crime.

( Al Jazeera ) Malaysian jet shot down in Ukraine

The Boeing 777, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was brought down by a buk ground-to-air missle, Interfax agency reported on Thursday, citing an interior ministry adviser.