Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Poroshenko was one of the main maidan sponsors, including various 'self-defence' and Pravy sektor groups. He won the elections. He stated that Ukraine will be unitary and with the only state language (ein Reich, ein Sprache). He hadn't done anything for disarming all that far right groups. Moreover thay are equiped and armed even better. What else?

Supporting Maidan doesn't mean supporting Nazis, that's so very obvious that even you should have noticed it.

[spooky lynx 73]

The main strike force, most organized and disciplined groups were or far right origin. Others were mostly crowd scene and source of ritual immolation. So for me supportion maidan equals supporting nazis.

[busso 10]

The main strike force, most organized and disciplined groups were or far right origin. Others were mostly crowd scene and source of ritual immolation. So for me supportion maidan equals supporting nazis.

A people's desire to have a sovereign state, free from the interference of an aggressive and overbearing neighbour does not make them nazis.

You are also not the only one who has relatives in Ukraine.

[spooky lynx 73]

But supporting armed insurgency of people that committed genocide of Russians (and other non-Chechen nations), stating that without destruction of Russia the independence of Ukraine is impossible, ukrainification of all sides of life, praising nazi leaders like Bandera and Shuhevich, supporting former nazi soldiers and performing rallies for praising Galichina division makes them nazis.

[maturin 12]

By that token, most Russian nationalist movements are equally tainted with fascism and support for totalitarian mass murder.

[spooky lynx 73]

By that token, most Russian nationalist movements are equally tainted with fascism and support for totalitarian mass murder.

The difference is that most Russian nationalist movements are widely opressed (google about 282th article of Russian penal code - so called "Russian article") for several years already. But their Ukrainian counterparts are not.

[surpher 1]

As for dash cam - don't you think the video was taken in Crimea during return of vehicles to Ukraine? There's no clear evidence that it was taken in Rostov, where tanks may be driven to Ukraine.

Possible location: 48.24709,40.289546 You can go down too road level on Google Maps.

Edited July 8, 2014 by surpher

[busso 10]

...praising nazi leaders like Bandera and Shuhevich, supporting former nazi soldiers and performing rallies for praising Galichina division makes them nazis.

There are still those in Russia who mourn the passing of the CCCP and see no wrong in the acts committed under Stalin and others. I'm sure they're not representative of the majority though...

[ballistic09 241]

Why not? At least some attempt to excuse loss of tanks to insurgents and incompetence of own army that abandons its equipment. Sure it's better to state that damned powerful evil Moskali sought entire tank brigade to insurgents that admit that glorious Ukrainian armed forces abandoned a number of intact tanks with ammo after the firefight with bunch of rebels armed with light weapons only.

Nobody is doubting that the Ukrainians have lost vehicles to the separatists... Hell even a few Iraqi M1 Abrams were lost to incompetence and hand grenades in the past few days. What I'm doubting are the numbers.

Generally, perfectly working tanks aren't just abandoned by their crew in the middle of a war zone, even by the most incompetent of crews. :p

Look at second photo you've provided. Standard OD green tanks. And as for the brackets - they are easily unmounted and lost often (very common problem among all post-Soviet armies). As for the numbers - all the tanks have three-digits numbers. Symbol on searchlight indicates some special sign of the detachment but not the number of tank. It's the same system both in Russia and Ukraine (and most of other post-Soviet armies that use T-64/-72/-80).

Indeed, but the majority still had camouflage. As for the ERA, please show me some Ukrainian T-64's with that makeshift ERA arrangement because so far, I've seen none. In fact, I don't even think I've seen one Ukrainian T-64BV that lacked the proper mount for ERA. And oh look, the tanks on that train had triple digit numbers on their IR lights, unlike the rebel tanks. But I'm sure you have another unfounded, psychic excuse for that too... Something probably along the lines of, "They must have painted it over so as to not make the Ukrainians feel too bad about loosing another vehicle... so merciful, kind, and brave the rebels are."

My point was that Russia didn't send the tanks captured in Crimea directly to the rebels. They more than likely were sent back to Ukraine, and yes, it's possible some may have ended up being recaptured. The tanks on that Russian convoy, however, are unlike the tanks used by the Ukrainian army. I have not seen one picture of a Ukrainian T-64BV with that type of makeshift ERA.

Unfortunately our government is not so unite when it comes to Ukraine. Moreover there are various powerflu groups that are against any help to Donbass. BTW why should we bring the weapons that are already stored in large numbers at many stocks across Ukraine? It's much easier and better to provide some specialists who can seize them (hint).

Well, some people (not affiliated with government) who support anti-maidan forces aren't poor. I've read about rather large sums been transferred to insurgents. Together with trucks and cars. You see, not all the businessmen support maidan.

Then why is your nation's customs service letting those trucks and fighters cross the border at rebel controlled areas? :rolleyes:

Good? Oh come on, such camo paint can be done in a half of day, especially when there are tons of hi-res pics of real prototypes. Again, if 18th division retired its Grad chassis and changed them for KaMAZ ones, how can complete vehicle arrive three years later in Ukraine?

So what your saying is that it's more probable that the Ukrainian army is painting all their rocket artillery vehicles in old Russian camo, so that in the off chance that they get destroyed, they can blame Russia, instead of Russia simply giving the rebels the BM-21 straight out of storage to protect Russia's national interests? Also, since when does phasing out a military vehicle erase it from existence? Wouldn't it go into reserves or storage?

I would also like to point out that in

, both the first and the second BM-21's can be identically matched to the two BM-21's in this photo of Russian BM-21's. Pay attention to the contours of the different colors on the camo. They're 1 for 1 identical. Edited July 8, 2014 by Ballistic09

[spooky lynx 73]

Then why is your nation's customs service letting those trucks and fighters cross the border at rebel controlled areas? :rolleyes:

I may surprise you but trucks and other cars cross this border since 1992 because it was never controlled much. The same goes to border with Kazakhstan in my region. Noone gives a damn about full control of that borders.

So what your saying is that it's more probable that the Ukrainian army is painting all their rocket artillery vehicles in old Russian camo, so that in the off chance that they get destroyed, they can blame Russia, instead of Russia simply giving the rebels the BM-21 straight out of storage to protect Russia's national interests? Also, since when does phasing out a military vehicle erase it from existence? Wouldn't it go into reserves or storage?

Again, 18th division retired its Ural chassis, not complete vehicles with launcher tubes. So how the complete vehicle from that division could end up in Ukraine if all the launcher tubes were placed on new chassis and continue to be used in service? Or do you think insurgents were able to reassamble Grads with launchers they found somewhere at the warehouse and chassis provided by Russia from stocks of 18th division? My point is that statement about Grads been taken from 18th division is total BS for a number of reasons I've provided. Simply green Grad could be distinguished as former Russian much easier:)

[mistyronin 1181]

I may surprise you but trucks and other cars cross this border since 1992 because it was never controlled much. The same goes to border with Kazakhstan in my region. Noone gives a damn about full control of that borders.

If that is true, it's really crazy IMO. Specially in the actual situation. It's hard to believe.

[spooky lynx 73]

If that is true, it's really crazy IMO. Specially in the actual situation. It's hard to believe.

That's true, believe me. Legacy of Soviet Union. There was no need to build full-scale border line between Russia and Ukraine after 1992. Our southern borders are more or less patrolled (mainly because of drug traffic from Middle Asian states and A-stan) but borders with Ukraine and Belarus aren't observed much.

[maturin 12]

The difference is that most Russian nationalist movements are widely opressed (google about 282th article of Russian penal code - so called "Russian article") for several years already. But their Ukrainian counterparts are not.

And so the main difference between Ukrainian and Russian violent ultra-nationalists is that Russia is a repressive police state that can keep its radicals under wraps? So it logically follows that Ukraine's problem isn't fascism, so much as a weak government that can't control the rightwing groups. And the only reason that the rightwingers proliferated is because Yanukovych lost all legitimacy and forced the protestors to turn to armed self-defense with constant police brutality. And so it makes no sense to demonize the Ukrainian government and destabilize the country. Really, the anti-fascist should be trying to strengthen Poroshenko's government, which was elected by voters who rejected the far right. As soon as Ukraine has peace and a strong government, radicals will pose no threat. Now there's a better political position for a concerned Russian anti-fascist.

But that assumes that I agree with your statement. Russian ultranationalists are legally repressed. Outbreaks like Бирилево aside, anyone with a little patience and an internet connection could easily search for all the hate crimes being committed by Russian rightwingers and construct a narrative identical to the one the Russian state media uses in Ukraine. And you keep saying that Putin isn't directly supporting the реÑпубликанцев. That's probably true. It's Russian nationalist filibusters who are doing it. So how repressed are they now? They've started a civil war in a neighboring country. Which group threatens the peace more?

And remember that actual violence wasn't the point here. It was all about words. Russia was plunged into a moral panic about Bandera, who is the devil, when Zyuganov has a portrait of Stalin hanging over his desk. Without even attempting to assess Stalin's deeds and misdeeds in full, Stalin's cooperation with Hitler ran deeper than Bandera's, had more results and victims and lasted about as long. And then both fought the Nazis. But only in Lvov are there fascists collaborators? There is a massive lack of self awareness and a sea of double standards. Russia's rightwingers may be repressed in deed, but not in word.

Edited July 9, 2014 by maturin

[Tonci87 163]

^this

[Tonci87 163]

There is a new interesting Vice report, maybe someone can link it?

I wonder what happened to the self proclaimed Mayor of Slaviansk.

I really hope that the Ukrainian government acts smart and really helps the people to rebuild the town.

[mistyronin 1181]

There is a new interesting Vice report, maybe someone can link it?

Your wish is my command :p

[surpher 1]

(Examiner.com) Russia’s top 60 lies about Ukraine

Spotted Simon in the background in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNs6GVB8OhY

[Tonci87 163]

Conclusion: You can't trust anything that comes out of the russian media.

[maturin 12]

Conclusion: You can't trust anything that comes out of the russian media.

That said, Ukraine's media is currently employing equally (or even more) absurd methods to spread the fog of war.

Western media coverage is generally poor and biased, but still maintains some minimal standards of journalism. Factual honesty, if not intellectual honesty.

[Tonci87 163]

That said, Ukraine's media is currently employing equally (or even more) absurd methods to spread the fog of war.

Western media coverage is generally poor and biased, but still maintains some minimal standards of journalism. Factual honesty, if not intellectual honesty.

True.

New Vice report is up. This time Do NOT link it here.

Am I the only one who thinks that it was pretty stupid of this guy to put his pregnant wife on a military convoi?

Also the people welcoming the rebels don't seem to realise what this really means for their town....

[surpher 1]

That said, Ukraine's media is currently employing equally (or even more) absurd methods to spread the fog of war.

You have some sources?

(Reuters) EU agrees to add 11 names to Ukraine sanctions list

Edited July 10, 2014 by surpher

[mistyronin 1181]

True.

New Vice report is up. This time Do NOT link it here.

Oh shit a worm fest! ( black humor )

The pro-Russian violent thugs were full desperation and hurry to abandon the city, fearing for reprisals against their families ( obviously the people from Slaviansk that suffered from the Pro-Russians wouldn't be much kind to them ).

BTW IMO the Ukrainian soldiers should have taken care of the remains of the pro-Russian thugs. There is no point to let them root in a public space.

[Maio 293]

True.

New Vice report is up. This time Do NOT link it here.

Am I the only one who thinks that it was pretty stupid of this guy to put his pregnant wife on a military convoi?

Also the people welcoming the rebels don't seem to realise what this really means for their town....

It was pretty stupid of him to join up with the rebels considering his wife is pregnant...

The rally scene where Pavel Gubarev was giving his speech reminded me of political rallies where a big portion of the people attending are forced to be there or are attending in order to receive some sort of compensation (food, money, etc).

Edited July 10, 2014 by Maio

[mistyronin 1181]

( Kyiv Post ) Documents show Russian separatist commander signed off on executions of three men in Sloviansk

[surpher 1]

(BBC) Report exposes 'stomach-turning' violence

Amnesty International says that it has gathered "graphic and compelling evidence of savage beatings and other torture" by pro-Russian separatist groups in eastern Ukraine.

Pro-government forces also committed a smaller number of abuses, Amnesty says.

(BBC) Separatist leader: 'Ukraine rebels will not surrender'

Oleg Tsaryov, the self-proclaimed head of the breakaway republic of Novorossiya (New Russia), told the BBC's Steve Rosenberg that he "knew the mood of the insurgents" and that they were "not going to surrender".

(The Moscow Times) Lavrov: Russia Must Spend More Cash to Improve Image Abroad

"Events in Ukraine and around it have clearly demonstrated that we are facing competition – frequently of an unfair kind – in the issues of forming public opinion," Lavrov said, according to an official transcript of his remarks published on the ministry's website.

"It is important that we increase our work on explaining Russia's line in international affairs, bringing truthful information to foreign public, strengthening contacts not only with those who seek constructive cooperation with us, but also with those players who are still laboring under the influence of prejudices of a past epoch," he said.

Edited July 11, 2014 by surpher