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That's there, in the army I served as a professional the only "customized" thing I could get were boots, and only during a mission.

I suppose you had enough up-to-date gear available unlike current UA servicemen whose stock gear is like Russian army of early-middle 90's. So you didn't have to spend your own money to buy good boots, armor vest or scope for rifle.

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As for the photo - look here - it may be 'hunting carbine Fort-206' - IRL semi-auto AKM with blackjack and hookers.

In the US we call that a "Bubba" gun. Which fits since he's got his optic on backwards.

The whole Standard/Non Standard gear thing varies from nation to nation, or even unit to unit. Look at American troops in Afghanistan- lots of customized personal weapons and non-standard gear in some places.

Edited by lesscubes

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According to UA MoD facebook page, Nikolaev armor repair plant specialists had repaired almost 150 vehicled damaged during 'anti-terrorist operation'.

Okay, 150 damaged vehicles were repaired at Nikolaev. Some other were destroyed and written off. Some were captured by rebels. Some were driven to other repair facilities. So it seems that UA army, NG and various semi-private batallions lost quite huge number of vehicles.

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I suppose you had enough up-to-date gear available unlike current UA servicemen whose stock gear is like Russian army of early-middle 90's. So you didn't have to spend your own money to buy good boots, armor vest or scope for rifle.

Yup, true. We have by default relatively good equipment ( the rifle had the 1,5x scope integrated by default ).

To me it's kind of weird the situation in which Ukrainian Army is ( well and the country as a whole ).

So it seems that UA army, NG and various semi-private batallions lost quite huge number of vehicles.

You forgot the most important, the ones captured by Russia when they stole Crimea ( that although Putin said that will be returned, nothing has happened ).

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IMO the whole idea of returning weapons and vehicles from Crimea was stupid. No need to be genius to realise that many of that vehicles would be used against populated areas of Donbass. It's better not to give extra arms to those who prefer 'ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Sprache'-kind of ideology and cooperates with far right radical groups and parties. Proved some years earlier with the armament of former 10th Division in Ahaltsike, Georgia which had been transferred to newly formed Georgian government with the condition of prohibition from using it in internal conflicts. That was forgotten the next day and tanks and other vehicles were driven to Abhasia to show that not all the nations have the right of self determination.

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IMO the whole idea of returning weapons and vehicles from Crimea was stupid. No need to be genius to realise that many of that vehicles would be used against populated areas of Donbass. It's better not to give extra arms to those who prefer 'ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Sprache'-kind of ideology and cooperates with far right radical groups and parties.

Come on, so much contempt :icon_ohmygod:

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so spooky instead the vehicles were given to the pro-Russian rebels so they can stir things up ...

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so spooky instead the vehicles were given to the pro-Russian rebels so they can stir things up ...

Really? Any proofs?

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Really? Any proofs?

well I was reacting to your 'comment' so take it as you want

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well I was reacting to your 'comment' so take it as you want

Okay, but without any proof of such rumors I can take it only as another piece of russophobic propaganda like "Lugansk administration building was damaged by MANPADS missile fired by separatists and locked on working air conditioner". Sorry.

BTW if that was really true - rebels would have tens of tanks and APCs, large numbers of Shilkas and large caliber artillery, both towed and self-propellered. Oh and some mighty AA missiles like Buk and S-300 too. But instead of it they have few tanks and some dozens of APCs. Not so big help from evil Putin...

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Really? Any proofs?

Yes, actually...

Remember that NATO report about Russian T-64's in Ukraine, and how they claimed to have satellite imagery showing said tanks being loaded up on a convoy and heading for eastern Ukraine? You know, the one that most people simply laughed off as russophobic propaganda. Well, turns out somebody with a dash cam drove by the convoy, and it was loaded with T-64's.

Ignoring the fact that Russia has supposedly scrapped all their T-64's, making it even more odd to see some in a Russian army convoy, when you compare the T-64's on the convoy (specifically the ones with improvised ERA arrangements) to photos of rebel "captured" T-64's, you'll find many similarities:

th_T-64.jpg

Additionally, if anyone would have taken the time to notice, the Kamaz trucks the rebels drive are all the post Soviet 5350 model, where as the Ukrainian armed forces only use the older Soviet era 4310 model. That, coupled with surpher's excellent observation that a rebel BM-21 was once a part of Russia's 18th motorized rifle brigade, and the correlation should be more than clear by now.

In short, Russia is directly supplying the rebels with lethal aid. You'd have to be a brainwashed fool not to see it by now.

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It's better not to give extra arms to those who prefer 'ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Sprache'-kind of ideology and cooperates with far right radical groups and parties.

I often wonder if those who keep uttering this Ukraine=Nazis rhetoric ever grow weary of listening to themselves.

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Yes, actually...

Remember that NATO report about Russian T-64's in Ukraine, and how they claimed to have satellite imagery showing said tanks being loaded up on a convoy and heading for eastern Ukraine? You know, the one that most people simply laughed off as russophobic propaganda. Well, turns out somebody with a dash cam drove by the convoy, and it was loaded with T-64's.

Ignoring the fact that Russia has supposedly scrapped all their T-64's, making it even more odd to see some in a Russian army convoy, when you compare the T-64's on the convoy (specifically the ones with improvised ERA arrangements) to photos of rebel "captured" T-64's, you'll find many similarities:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h70/ballistic09/th_T-64.jpg

There is another variant: those T-64s loaded on train were... given back to Ukraine. And later captured by rebels during clashes. As for dash cam - don't you think the video was taken in Crimea during return of vehicles to Ukraine? There's no clear evidence that it was taken in Rostov, where tanks may be driven to Ukraine.

Additionally, if anyone would have taken the time to notice, the Kamaz trucks the rebels drive are all the post Soviet 5350 model, where as the Ukrainian armed forces only use the older Soviet era 4310 model. That, coupled with surpher's excellent observation that a rebel BM-21 was once a part of Russia's 18th motorized rifle brigade, and the correlation should be more than clear by now.

In short, Russia is directly supplying the rebels with lethal aid. You'd have to be a brainwashed fool not to see it by now.

KamAZ trucks are really not a good example - they are freely available at civil market. Approx. 50K Euro - and you own it. Used ones are even cheaper.Seen them with civil licence plates by myself many times.

About BM-21 - I've answered that it may be former Russian vehicle, but most likely it's not because all the Grads in 18th division were placed on KamAZ chassis (and Ural chassis were retired). So it's unlikely that complete vehicle even with documents was taken from storage. So most likely it's faked Russian vehicle (Ukrs have internet too and they may know what markings are on Russian vehicle but fortunately they are too dumb to fabricate well-made Russian documents without grammar errors and don't understand that such documents are impossible to find in the vehicle after three years of storage:)).

So I'm not brainwashed fool to believe all the stuff shown by pro-maidan/Ukr crew and try to think what I see. Still I've seen only one evidence of vehicle that may be given to rebels by Russia - BTR-80 with slat armor. Others seem to be of former UA origin, captured by insurgents.

I often wonder if those who keep uttering this Ukraine=Nazis rhetoric ever grow weary of listening to themselves.

Believe me or not, but I live not so far and have some relatives living there (Harkov, Poltava).

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Believe me or not, but I live not so far and have some relatives living there (Harkov, Poltava).

And ? That allows you to say such things ?

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And ? That allows you to say such things ?

Well I think he is influenced by feelings, which I understand, which make him view the events and the factions from a particular point of view.

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There is another variant: those T-64s loaded on train were... given back to Ukraine. And later captured by rebels during clashes. As for dash cam - don't you think the video was taken in Crimea during return of vehicles to Ukraine? There's no clear evidence that it was taken in Rostov, where tanks may be driven to Ukraine.

No. Earliest video uploaded June 20th; a little late to be uploading something that happened at the end of March don't you think?

Additionally, the vehicles that were returned to Ukraine were sent by rail:

http://i.imgur.com/T5uYpwZ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ZFrmR2l.jpg

(in the background)

The only time they were on Kamaz-65225's was when they were on their way to the rail yard through urban areas:

http://i.imgur.com/E0FCg0h.jpg

Also, one should note that the vast majority of the Ukrainian T-64's in Crimea had the proper side mounting brackets for their ERA, and the 1 or 2 that didn't weren't T-64BV's. The majority of the tanks from the supposed Russian convoy did not have the brackets, and instead relied upon an improvised arrangement of ERA bolted in parallel along the side skirt. Additionally, the T-64's in Crimea had a triple digit numbering convention, whereas the tanks on the convoy used a single digit (number is on the IR light). And last but not least, most of the tanks from Crimea had a camouflage pattern, and the ones on the convoy had standard OD green.

I very highly doubt the Ukrainian tanks from Crimea were given to the rebels as Dwarden claimed. The point I was trying to make was that the Russian government is almost assuredly supplying the pro-Russian rebels with tanks, artillery, trucks, ATGM's , etc... I thought that's what was being argued here.

KamAZ trucks are really not a good example - they are freely available at civil market. Approx. 50K Euro - and you own it. Used ones are even cheaper.Seen them with civil licence plates by myself many times.

Indeed, but that's still not cheap...

Who do you think is supplying the money for the hundreds of trucks that have streamed across the Russian border? Or do you think someone in Ukraine had a secret private army of brand new, green, army standard (roof hatch), Kamaz trucks before the unrest started? ;)

About BM-21 - I've answered that it may be former Russian vehicle, but most likely it's not because all the Grads in 18th division were placed on KamAZ chassis (and Ural chassis were retired). So it's unlikely that complete vehicle even with documents was taken from storage. So most likely it's faked Russian vehicle (Ukrs have internet too and they may know what markings are on Russian vehicle but fortunately they are too dumb to fabricate well-made Russian documents without grammar errors and don't understand that such documents are impossible to find in the vehicle after three years of storage:)).

Wow, well then there are some damned good artists in the Ukrainian government then... Fooled me:

bm21.jpg~original

:rolleyes:

Still I've seen only one evidence of vehicle that may be given to rebels by Russia - BTR-80 with slat armor. Others seem to be of former UA origin, captured by insurgents.

Really? Of all the "evidence" I've seen, that's probably the least likely to have come from Russia... I've seen photos of Ukrainian BTR-80's with slat armor before.

Edited by Ballistic09

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It's a shame that RT has removed their masterpiece on propaganda, but at least you can read the comment section.

( RT ) ‘Leaked plan’ on E. Ukraine suggests internment camps, executions

Now is:

Here is a StopFake article on that masterpiece of propaganda.

I can't claim any credit for matching the Grad with the TopWar images, I just was reposting what I had seen on twitter. I have replaced the video of the convoy in Luhansk in that old post so you can see it not just one Grad launcher from the TopWar images but two.

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And ? That allows you to say such things ?

IMO people that live there may tell me more than some media reports.

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IMO people that live there may tell me more than some media reports.

That is actually not true and also quite obvious. They are too involved and often don't have any other sources than propaganda.

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IMO people that live there may tell me more than some media reports.

Yah, so knowing some Russians living near Ukrainian border entitles you to call Ukrainians nazis ? And then, you wonder why there is Russophobia ?

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Yah, so knowing some Russians living near Ukrainian border entitles you to call Ukrainians nazis ? And then, you wonder why there is Russophobia ?

Nope. Knowing some Russians and Armenians living in Ukraine entitles me to call current UA regime nazist.

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Nope. Knowing some Russians and Armenians living in Ukraine entitles me to call current UA regime nazist.

Of course. Remind me what was the score of the far rightist parties at the last presidential election in Ukraine ?

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No. Earliest video uploaded June 20th; a little late to be uploading something that happened at the end of March don't you think?

Why not? At least some attempt to excuse loss of tanks to insurgents and incompetence of own army that abandons its equipment. Sure it's better to state that damned powerful evil Moskali sought entire tank brigade to insurgents that admit that glorious Ukrainian armed forces abandoned a number of intact tanks with ammo after the firefight with bunch of rebels armed with light weapons only.

Additionally, the vehicles that were returned to Ukraine were sent by rail:

http://i.imgur.com/T5uYpwZ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ZFrmR2l.jpg

(in the background)

The only time they were on Kamaz-65225's was when they were on their way to the rail yard through urban areas:

http://i.imgur.com/E0FCg0h.jpg

Also, one should note that the vast majority of the Ukrainian T-64's in Crimea had the proper side mounting brackets for their ERA, and the 1 or 2 that didn't weren't T-64BV's. The majority of the tanks from the supposed Russian convoy did not have the brackets, and instead relied upon an improvised arrangement of ERA bolted in parallel along the side skirt. Additionally, the T-64's in Crimea had a triple digit numbering convention, whereas the tanks on the convoy used a single digit (number is on the IR light). And last but not least, most of the tanks from Crimea had a camouflage pattern, and the ones on the convoy had standard OD green.

Look at second photo you've provided. Standard OD green tanks. And as for the brackets - they are easily unmounted and lost often (very common problem among all post-Soviet armies). As for the numbers - all the tanks have three-digits numbers. Symbol on searchlight indicates some special sign of the detachment but not the number of tank. It's the same system both in Russia and Ukraine (and most of other post-Soviet armies that use T-64/-72/-80).

I very highly doubt the Ukrainian tanks from Crimea were given to the rebels as Dwarden claimed. The point I was trying to make was that the Russian government is almost assuredly supplying the pro-Russian rebels with tanks, artillery, trucks, ATGM's , etc... I thought that's what was being argued here.

Unfortunately our government is not so unite when it comes to Ukraine. Moreover there are various powerflu groups that are against any help to Donbass. BTW why should we bring the weapons that are already stored in large numbers at many stocks across Ukraine? It's much easier and better to provide some specialists who can seize them (hint). Donbass people tell that some weapons really come from our territory. But they aren't large in numbers, and most of vehicles are captured from government structures.

Indeed, but that's still not cheap...

Who do you think is supplying the money for the hundreds of trucks that have streamed across the Russian border? Or do you think someone in Ukraine had a secret private army of brand new, green, army standard (roof hatch), Kamaz trucks before the unrest started? ;)

Well, some people (not affiliated with government) who support anti-maidan forces aren't poor. I've read about rather large sums been transferred to insurgents. Together with trucks and cars. You see, not all the businessmen support maidan.

Wow, well then there are some damned good artists in the Ukrainian government then... Fooled me:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h70/ballistic09/bm21.jpg~original

:rolleyes:

Good? Oh come on, such camo paint can be done in a half of day, especially when there are tons of hi-res pics of real prototypes. Again, if 18th division retired its Grad chassis and changed them for KaMAZ ones, how can complete vehicle arrive three years later in Ukraine?

Really? Of all the "evidence" I've seen, that's probably the least likely to have come from Russia... I've seen photos of Ukrainian BTR-80's with slat armor before.

That BTR labeled as 'captured by UA army' carried slat armor kit similar to that developed by "NII Stali" institute. Ukrainian ones carry improvised kits.

---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

Of course. Remind me what was the score of the far rightist parties at the last presidential election in Ukraine ?

According to this source, the total score at Rada elections may be about 31%. Interesting, isn't it?

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According to this source, the total score at Rada elections may be about 31%. Interesting, isn't it?

During the Presidential elections, after the mess and the Crimean story. Less than Zhirinovsky in Russia. No "may be" sources.

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Poroshenko was one of the main maidan sponsors, including various 'self-defence' and Pravy sektor groups. He won the elections. He stated that Ukraine will be unitary and with the only state language (ein Reich, ein Sprache). He hadn't done anything for disarming all that far right groups. Moreover thay are equiped and armed even better. What else?

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