Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

Its great to call others conspiracy theorists, at the same time quoting US Govt. claiming they have "proofs" that Russia is an evil empire.

I guess those "proofs" are just as "rock hard" as proofs about Saddam's WMDs.

There was famous Russian writer-fabulist, Ivan Krylov. One of his most famous fables contains the phrase wolf said to lamb: "You are guilty just because I'm hungry". So until Russia is large state with its own interests across the globe it will be always blamed by our dear democratic partners.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Apart that Russia is already the largest state in the world :rolleyes:

[vilas 473]

or rather Russia will blame others for "fascists, nazis" when Russian oligarchs/Putin/commies/Zhyrinovsky will be hungry for other territory (USSR had 22 milions km2 , Russia has 17, so they "lost" 5 milion sq km)

[spooky lynx 73]

Not everybody like this fact.

[mistyronin 1181]

So until Russia is large state with its own interests across the globe it will be always blamed by our dear democratic partners.

In fact Russia is and has been for LONG LONG time already a large state with its own interests across the globe.

Same as UK, France, Germany, Spain, US, and long etc.

Russia will be respected when you have competent leaders that use diplomacy and intelligence that want to promote the country, giving freedom and modernity to its citizens, not behaving like an authoritarian bully thug.

Right now Putin is closer to regimes like North Korea ( no wonder that is one of the main Russian allies ) than to powerful countries like Brazil or Japan ( both have better economies than Russia ).

You should read Tolstoy for a chance.

[vilas 473]

countries like Brazil

this country i would not name looking at Favelas problems, World Cup protests etc.

it is not good example comparing to Russia where live is much better and safer than in city with favela with biggest murder rate in globe

[ProfTournesol 956]

Not everybody like this fact.

When the largest state in the world doesn't think it is big enough, then yes we have a very big problem.

[mistyronin 1181]

this country i would not name looking at Favelas problems, World Cup protests etc.

it is not good example comparing to Russia where live is much better and safer than in city with favela with biggest murder rate in globe

Yeah, its really worse the favelas than the Caucasus insurgency... About the bigger murder rates it depends on police reports ( or if the gov. wants to hide them ).

And if they have protests it's because they are allowed, unlike Russia where most are forbidden.

BTW according to the UNODC, the biggest rate is in Honduras then Venezuela, US Virgin Islands, and long etc. until Brazil.

[spooky lynx 73]

When the largest state in the world doesn't think it is big enough, then yes we have a very big problem.

When some states' elites think Russia is too big (and that's why its nations should get moar 'freedom' like Chechnya in 1996-1999) and has too much resources that should belong to 'all civilized world' but not to exact country then yes, we, Russians, have a problem. Also if the 'civilized world' highly praised union of Germany, I don't understand why union of Russians lived in one state for several centuries but been divided in 1991 is taken negatively. To be honest I understand. But you'll never admit the reasons.

[mistyronin 1181]

When some states' elites think Russia is too big (and that's why its nations should get moar 'freedom' like Chechnya in 1996-1999) .

Personally I don't care a shit what states' elites think, about Chechnya or other ethnic nations ( with their own culture and so on ) should IMO have the right to auto-determination, to decide peacefully their own future ( Same for Basques, Scots, Catalans, Irish, people from Quebec, Flemish, etc. ).

IMO the Second Chechen war was just a Putin's excuse to gain prestige, and to show how "macho" he is ( a bit like Mussolini ). An interesting account on that conflict is the one wrote by Arkady Babchencko in One soldier's war ( who was a Russian conscript soldier in the first, a volunteer in the second and later a journalist ), I don't remember the original Russian title.

When I see the Russian Federation, I see a country with a lots of potential, resources, an amazing rich culture and history ( the US could not even dream of that ), a really nice and dedicated people; all that wasted by some idiots that lead them ( from the Czars times, to the Soviets and now with the autocratic Putin ).

[vilas 473]

Germany was divided by war and one part of Germany was occupied by USSR

thats why they united,

other case is fall of USSR and earlier Tsar Empire which was making process of Russification of others, and occupying other lands,

borders of USSR republics were made by USSR leaders and of course they do not fit national border-lines, but this is not comparable with German situation

cause Germany was divided and pushed off by USSR (along with Poland)

the fact that USSR and earlier Russian Empire occupied others , killing locals to replace them by Russians , cannot be compared to unification of DDR and BRD

mess was made by :

- Tsars making process of Russification on some lands

- Stalin and USSR politics doing forced multi-culti and Russification again, and border line changes,

if they were not adding to Ukraine land , than it would be other, but mess was made by USSR leaders

nation-led country, but you criticize "ein wolk, ein reich" so why now you say that Russians have right...

oo let me guess - other nations CANNOT have "ein volk ein sprecht" cause it is "nazi", but Russians can ? cause Russians are over others, right ?

noone forbids Russians to live, problem is that some of them want to JOIN other land to Russia cause they are 30% or 40% somewhere and believe that 60 or 70% must obey

in regions when there was this insurgency Russians are 30-40%

and as visible, they wanted to join Russia, how about those 60-70% of the rest who not make civil war ?

the other issue is to how to solve anti-EU stuff there, maybe the best solution would be referendum about EU, maybe some regions of Ukraine should have big autonomy not being EU controlled,

but Chechnya is not ethnic part of Russia , it is other nation that is occupied by Russia since ages,

just like Finland or my country , my country was occupied by Russia for 123 years, several Russian politicians cannot even today accept it after 96 years of regain independence again by my country,

Ukraine has its independence for the FIRST time in history, but Russians there cannot accept it , it is good that we do not have in my country minority which wants our land to join to other country rule,

many things should be dealt with referendum - not with 10% taking arms to make 90% obey

there should be referendum out there about different things, including EU and etc.

and minority should accept majority, not minority forcing majority by arms

[negah 26]

When I see the Russian Federation, I see a country with a lots of potential, resources, an amazing rich culture and history ( the US could not even dream of that ), a really nice and dedicated people; all that wasted by some idiots that lead them ( from the Czars times, to the Soviets and now with the autocratic Putin ).

You have a point here, but still do you think it would be better if Russia was ruled by someone like Yeltsin, who is not capable to rule this country?

Until we see a better russian ruler than Putin, Putin is the best option IMO. He might be autocratic, but he is capable to keep that huge country under control. And maybe its the only way right now to keep Russia under control.

You cant compare a country like Germany, which was born from Prussian militant mentality, where you're taught starting with kindergarten that you have to work, work, and work some more and dont you dare to break the rules, to a country like Russia, where the people's biggest dream there is to gain something without working hard for it (just look at their folklore/proverbs). Sorry if it was offensive to russian or german people here.

You have to remember Russia alone is capable to destroy earth several times. I wish to see that there is order in that country, may it cost some liberal freedoms. I dont want to see it in chaos like it was in the 90s.

I never lived in Russia, so I cant build a every reliable opinion, but I guess many russians would agree with me on that point.

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@vilas

In fact Russia is a multicultural state with many languages. In some regions that languages are also state languages besides Russian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Russia

Also I havent heard about current russian policy of killings and deportations of non-russians.

BTW, it was called "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" there was no part about "eine Sprache".

Edited July 15, 2014 by negah

[spooky lynx 73]

Personally I don't care a shit what states' elites think, about Chechnya or other ethnic nations ( with their own culture and so on ) should IMO have the right to auto-determination, to decide peacefully their own future ( Same for Basques, Scots, Catalans, Irish, people from Quebec, Flemish, etc. ).

Unfortunately those elites don't care about your opinion and do some unpleasant things to us. Also they think that nations deserve the right to auto-determination if they are pro-West, otherwise they must STFU (I say about Russians in former USSR republics, Abhasians, Ossetians, Armenians of Artsakh).

IMO the Second Chechen war was just a Putin's excuse to gain prestige, and to show how "macho" he is ( a bit like Mussolini ). An interesting account on that conflict is the one wrote by Arkady Babchencko in One soldier's war ( who was a Russian conscript soldier in the first, a volunteer in the second and later a journalist ), I don't remember the original Russian title.

So do you think Putin assaulted Dagestan in the summer of 1999 for the purpose of making another Imarat Caucasus?

You have a point here, but still do you think it would be better if Russia was ruled by someone like Yeltsin, who is not capable to rule this country?

Until we see a better russian ruler than Putin, Putin is the best option IMO. He might be autocratic, but he is capable to keep that huge country under control. And maybe its the only way right now to keep Russia under control.

For someone Yeltsin as the ruler of Russia is the best option - "Take as much souvereignity as you can"©, demoralised and unfunded army with rotten equipment, leaving all the foreign friendly countries alone, leaving huge arms stockpiles to separatists etc.

You cant compare a country like Germany, which was born from Prussian militant mentality, where you're taught starting with kindergarten that you have to work, work, and work some more and dont you dare to break the rules, to a country like Russia, where the people's biggest dream there is to gain something without working hard for it (just look at their folklore/proverbs). Sorry if it was offensive to russian or german people here.

Nevermind, you're right:) Things I dream of is to have several appartments in property for rent and live somewhere at sea coast, doing nothing:)

Edited July 15, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[vilas 473]

negah - all mess is due to history and placement of nations in different positions , not about current politics,

it is all due to years 1800-1956

[ProfTournesol 956]

Russia has been humiliated by the collapse of USSR in 1991. But contrary to some may think, USSR collapsed alone, on its own, but the weight of its major economical inefficiency and by the wish of dominated (one could say occupied) satellite countries for more freedom. Some (Gorbatchev etc.) may have boosted the process, but it was unavoidable.

And now what ? Russians are running after a wild dream, the Great Russia, something that never really existed without oppression and blood, and that will never come back without a major conflict. So yes, if they follow the Sudetenland way, to satisfy their humiliated nationalism, as the Germans being humiliated by the stupid Versailles treaty, our European future will be dark.

Edited July 15, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[spooky lynx 73]

Russia has been humiliated by the collapse of USSR in 1991. But contrary to some may think, USSR collapsed alone, on its own, but the weight of its major economical inefficiency and by the wish of dominated (one could say occupied) satellite countries for more freedom. Some (Gorbatchev etc.) may have boosted the process, but it was unavoidable.

So why a significant part of those 'satellite countries' (in fact they were regions like Provance in France) population came again to former opressors for work or immigration instead of building their own free democratic societies with blackjack and hookers? Okay, they got freedom. Why they do not use it but try to settle in the country that dominated (or occupied as some may say) their motherlands?

[mistyronin 1181]

You have a point here, but still do you think it would be better if Russia was ruled by someone like Yeltsin, who is not capable to rule this country?.

Of course Putin is better than Yelsin or than Stalin. But my hope is that some day, some good Russian leader will appear to transform the country in a better moswen place, that could be even one of the main referents in the world ( I told you, there is a lot of potential ).

So do you think Putin assaulted Dagestan in the summer of 1999 for the purpose of making another Imarat Caucasus?

So if 2000 crazy Chechens participate on their own in a try to "invade" Dagestan, that's reason enough to invade the whole country ( with more than one million people )... Use millions of dollars in war stuff, more than 7000 Russian soldiers / interior forces dead. :rolleyes:

Edited July 15, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

So if 2000 crazy Chechens participate on their own in a try to "invade" Dagestan, that's reason enough to invade the whole country ( with more than one million people )... Use millions of dollars in war stuff, more than 7000 Russian soldiers / interior forces dead. :rolleyes:

They were 'on their own' just like Japanese or Germans in WW2.

Nothing had been done to prevent it from 'official' Mashadov's folks. Moreover they got fire support from Chechen mainland. I'd remind you that the same deeds done by Hesbollah caused two full-scale Israeli invasions in Lebanon. The same occured in Angola with SADF. Why should we tolerate constant gang raids into regions bordering Chechnya? Dagestan mess was the most large, but Stavropolye suffered several times from kidnappings, murderings and robberies by armed gangs based in Chechnya.

[vilas 473]

thats why there should be refferendum and people left alone behind border, if Chechens want to live their way , let they live and than put border and have peace of mind, instead of war

[spooky lynx 73]

thats why there should be refferendum and people left alone behind border, if Chechens want to live their way , let they live and than put border and have peace of mind, instead of war

Okay they were left peacefully in 1996. Moreover all the pensions and other social payments were still transferred from Russian budget, despite zero taxes were transferred from Chechnya. What had we got then? We got constant raids of gangs packed with all firearms possible at bordering regions. Car stealings, robberies, killings and impossibility to catch the bandits because separatist forces opened fire at their border. And their own 'Sharia' police and courts did nothing with it. We had to stop any transit railway trains because a number of them was stopped and robbed. After their butts were kicked in Dagestan they committed a number of terroristic acts and blowed entire houses as a revenge. So do you think Chechens should have been left with it, Vilas? How the hell could we have peace of mind with it?

[vilas 473]

because there was no border,

there should be another country with strictly controlled border

[spooky lynx 73]

because there was no border,

there should be another country with strictly controlled border

De-facto there was another country with controlled border. But that didn't stop all that gangs and building vahhabi enclave in a number of Dagestan districts. So again, tell me, how could we have peace with it?

[mistyronin 1181]

De-facto there was another country with controlled border. But that didn't stop all that gangs and building vahhabi enclave in a number of Dagestan districts. So again, tell me, how could we have peace with it?

I'm sorry but you make no sense to me. If people infiltrate weapons or fighters inside Russian territory, the main responsable are the Russian border guard,

In the same way if in the US, people infiltrate the border from Mexico, with weapons, drugs, bombs, whatever. The responsable is the US borderguard , not Mexico. Would make no sense that the US invade Mexico for that.

Same in Spain if north africans jump the fences, or introduce drugs, or whatever it's not Morocco responsability. Nor Spain should invade Morocco. And a long etc.

With your same logic, Ukraine has all the right in the world to invade and bomb Russia, as there is a lot of traffic in the border.

Please don't try to insult our intelligence with that kind of arguments.

[spooky lynx 73]

I'm sorry but you make no sense to me. If people infiltrate weapons or fighters inside Russian territory, the main responsable are the Russian border guard,

So US and Israeli administration must make no sense to you because US and Israeli border guard was/is responsible for infiltration of the terrorists and weapons. But it hadn't stop from invading of A-stan and Lebanon (twice) and bombing Syria several times.

In the same way if in the US, people infiltrate the border from Mexico, with weapons, drugs, bombs, whatever. The responsable is the US borderguard , not Mexico. Would make no sense that the US invade Mexico for that.

You didn't see the difference. Mexican migrants and gangs don't get full support of Mexican government, unlike Basaev and other rebel commanders did from Mashadov's 'government'.

With your same logic, Ukraine has all the right in the world to invade and bomb Russia, as there is a lot of traffic in the border.

Nope. We had all the rights to bomb the sh!t out of Kiev for the traffic of UNA-UNSO gangs to Chechnya in 1995.

[vilas 473]

you still seems to forget that history not started in 1990s , it started centuries ago, when Russians began ocupation, so it is natural that after hundreds of years of Russian than Soviet oppression Ukrainian nationalists hated Russia,

it is nattural - if you beat someone for centuries - he hates you - it is natural

to not have hate - simply - do not occupy and not invade

why there is no hate of anyone against Switzerland or Sweden or Norway or Canada or New Zealand or Luxemburg ? because THEY NEVER OCCUPIED nor attacked anyone since centuries, so everyone loves them and have no issues with them and there is no nationalism against them, simple case

does anyone hate Czech ? no, cause Czech never attacked anyone since ages

religious mad people that want to apply their religion rules to others - you cannot stop them other way than bullet but religions are causes of war, pain, hate since thousands of years, thats why strict border with tall thick wall between 2 civilisations is the best, let every civilisation/culture/nation live in its territory with rules that it wants without mixing like USSR made, which mixed a lot and made a lof of mess , which now is dealt

Ukrainians have right to be patriotic as much as Russians, Americans others are

Edited July 15, 2014 by vilas